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What happens when fear replaces facts in public health?
When flawed media narratives overpower evidence-based decision-making?
When political tribalism overrides the needs of our children?
In this revealing episode of the Derate The Hate podcast, I sit down with David Zweig, one of the most courageous voices to emerge from the pandemic era. David is the author of the eye-opening new book, An Abundance of Caution: American Schools, the Virus, and a Story of Bad Decisions. With meticulous research and compelling storytelling, David takes us deep into how schools across the country shut down—not because the data demanded it, but because fear and political pressure drowned out reason.
You may recognize David from his investigative work on the Twitter Files, where he played a key role in exposing how public discourse around COVID-19 was manipulated. His reporting has appeared in The Atlantic, The New York Times, The New Yorker, The Wall Street Journal, New York Magazine, Wired, The Free Press, The Boston Globe, and more. He’s also the author of two prior books: the novel Swimming Inside the Sun and the nonfiction work Invisibles.
🧠 In this episode, we dive into:
✅ Why school closures often ignored the science and hurt children most
✅ How media outlets perpetuated fear rather than seeking truth
✅ The role of political tribalism in driving bad policy decisions
✅ How groupthink and fear silenced dissenting experts
✅ What accountability should look like post-pandemic
✅ How to protect kids and truth from future public health failures
David’s reporting has not only been influential in the public square—it’s made its way to Capitol Hill and even the Supreme Court. He has testified twice before Congress as an expert witness on the impact of COVID-19 on American schools.
💡 If you’re a longtime listener, you’ll remember my conversations with Dr. Francis Collins, former NIH Director, and Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, one of the earliest dissenting voices on school closures and lockdown policies—now tapped to lead the NIH under President-elect Trump. This conversation with David Zweig is the perfect complement, diving into how those policy decisions were made, how they were sold to the public, and how we can make sure the same mistakes never happen again.
David Zweig is a journalist, author, and speaker who has emerged as a leading voice on the intersection of media, politics, and public health. His reporting combines journalistic rigor with a clear-eyed commitment to uncovering inconvenient truths. He lives with his family in New York State.
🌐 Website: https://davidzweig.com/
🐦 Twitter/X: @davidzweig
📘 Get the Book: An Abundance of Caution – available wherever books are sold.
Revisit these powerful conversations:
🎙️ The Truth & Trust Project - DTH Episode 119 with Dr. Francis Collins
🎙️Humility & Free Speech Are Fundamental Prerequisites For Trust In Science - DTH Episode 174 with Dr. Jay Bhattacharya
✅ Share it with a friend
✅ Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform
✅ Leave a rating or review—your feedback helps others discover the show
✅ Join the conversation using the tags below!
#DavidZweig #AnAbundanceOfCaution #TwitterFiles #COVID19 #SchoolClosures #MediaMisinformation #PoliticalTribalism #PandemicPolicy #PublicHealth #EducationCrisis #ChildrenAndCOVID #WilkWilkinson #DerateTheHatePodcast #JayBhattacharya #FrancisCollins #InvestigativeJournalism #COVIDTruth #ParentalRights #SilentLunch #COVIDNarratives
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** Transcripts are AI generated and may not be 100% accurate
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:43:15
Wilk
Welcome back, my friends, to the Derate the Hate podcast. I am your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar stage. Calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog. And those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. Each week I'm sharing stories from my path and using the power of conversation and collaboration with my many great guests.
00:00:43:17 - 00:01:07:23
Wilk
Together, we chart a course toward understanding, bridging divides and fostering a community where wisdom prevails over discord. Friends, it really is about bettering the world. One attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the hate. The only good thing about a bad attitude is we have the ability as individuals to change it.
00:01:08:01 - 00:01:31:03
Wilk
For me, it starts with gratitude and personal accountability. I am so incredibly grateful that you have taken the time to join me for another powerful DTH episode. Please remember to subscribe and share the podcast with your network of friends. If you would like to support the show, check out the Support Us page on the Direct the Hate website. With that, my friends, let's get to it.
00:01:31:03 - 00:01:56:12
Wilk
Now, if you've been with us for a while, you know I don't shy away from the tough topics, especially when they involve the well-being of our kids, the health of our society, and the truth getting buried under layers of toxic fear and politics. This week's conversation is with someone who's been fearless in pulling back those layers. David Zweig is not only a gifted author and novelist.
00:01:56:14 - 00:02:27:09
Wilk
He's an investigative journalist whose work has appeared in The Atlantic, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal and so many others. You may recognize his name from his involvement in the Twitter files, where he helped to uncover some uncomfortable truths about how narratives around Covid 19 or shaped, filtered, and sometimes even outright suppressed. But today, my friends, we are diving into his newest and perhaps most impactful work to date “An Abundance of Caution.
00:02:27:13 - 00:02:59:05
Wilk
American schools, the Virus and a Story of Bad Decisions”. In this book, David lays out a thorough and sobering account of how decisions made during the pandemic, especially around school closures, were driven more by fear, media pressure and political tribalism than by actual evidence or concern for what was best for our children. David's reporting has been cited in congressional hearings and even in briefs to the Supreme Court.
00:02:59:07 - 00:03:33:04
Wilk
Why, you might ask? Because he's not just asking tough questions. He's exposing the cost of getting it wrong. The impact of shuttered schools went far beyond test scores. We're talking about emotional development, social loss, and the long term well-being of an entire generation. Friends, this isn't just about left to right. It's about accountability. It's about understanding how we got here and how we prevent these kinds of catastrophes from happening in the future.
00:03:33:06 - 00:03:45:00
Wilk
So get ready, because this conversation with my friend David Zweig pulls no punches. Let's get into it with someone whose courage I admire so very much. My friend David Zweig. Here we go.
00:03:45:00 - 00:03:50:19
Wilk
David Zweig, thank you for joining me on the Derate The Hate podcast. So good to see you again, brother. How are you?
00:03:50:21 - 00:03:53:14
David Zweig
Doing well, thanks for having me, Wilk.
00:03:53:16 - 00:03:54:14
Wilk
Oh, man. It's,
00:03:54:14 - 00:03:57:09
Wilk
it's great to see you. So, obviously it's been a little,
00:03:57:09 - 00:04:00:19
Wilk
a little while, obviously, you and I, but, haven't,
00:04:00:19 - 00:04:03:01
Wilk
probably seen each other in, in,
00:04:03:01 - 00:04:07:13
Wilk
in a few months. I think the last time we saw each other was, was out at Stanford. Right when we did that. Yeah.
00:04:07:15 - 00:04:09:07
David Zweig
Yeah, when we had. Terrific.
00:04:09:09 - 00:04:10:20
Wilk
Yeah, we did the event,
00:04:10:20 - 00:04:15:19
Wilk
back in, was it October or November of last year out at Stanford University with,
00:04:15:19 - 00:04:16:23
Wilk
with our friends.
00:04:16:23 - 00:04:21:03
Wilk
Jay Bhattacharya was there, doctor Marty Makary was there.
00:04:21:03 - 00:04:22:12
Wilk
Yeah. Just,
00:04:22:12 - 00:04:24:10
Wilk
just an incredible event. And,
00:04:24:10 - 00:04:26:04
Wilk
yeah, we had a lot of fun there. And,
00:04:26:04 - 00:04:27:18
Wilk
I know we're going to have a lot of fun here tonight.
00:04:27:18 - 00:04:29:09
Wilk
So, so, Dave,
00:04:29:09 - 00:04:34:08
Wilk
the reason you're here is to talk about, your book, Abundance of Caution.
00:04:34:08 - 00:04:42:05
Wilk
American Schools, the virus and a Story of Bad Decisions. So where I want to start, Dave, is,
00:04:42:05 - 00:04:47:22
Wilk
What? I guess what prompted you, first of all, to,
00:04:47:22 - 00:04:51:07
Wilk
you know, take this on as a cause?
00:04:51:09 - 00:05:00:14
Wilk
I know you and I have had several conversations throughout the pandemic about the work that you'd been doing, but this is definitely a passion for you. And,
00:05:00:14 - 00:05:09:16
Wilk
and it's a passion for me as well. So that's where I want to start. Dave, how did this thing become the passion that you wrote this incredible book about.
00:05:09:18 - 00:05:13:04
David Zweig
It started near the beginning of the pandemic.
00:05:13:04 - 00:05:25:22
David Zweig
I live in the New York area, so I like most of the people around here. I pretty immediately complied with the orders to stay home that they initiated. And,
00:05:25:22 - 00:05:35:18
David Zweig
I wasn't knowledgeable about what was happening. So I trusted the authorities or at least trusted them enough that I wasn't going to ignore what they were saying.
00:05:35:20 - 00:05:46:17
David Zweig
But very shortly thereafter, I began to feel like there was a lack of real evidence and information about what we were being told.
00:05:46:17 - 00:06:06:04
David Zweig
I have a great familiarity as an investigative journalist with reading scientific journals and engaging with academics and scholars. So for me, the idea of not trying to actually gain evidence on my own when I couldn't find it in the media was just a natural choice.
00:06:06:06 - 00:06:34:20
David Zweig
And this was such I mean, this was such an extraordinary moment, such a bizarre, unprecedented circumstance that it was unfathomable to me to not try to find out what was going on, to just simply, oh, we're just going to roll with it while everything's closed. Okay? Sure. Like that. That just would have been crazy. It's against my my sort of internal kind of sense of self to to just not want to, to find things out.
00:06:34:22 - 00:06:45:13
David Zweig
And initially I just was digging around talking to some experts in Europe and elsewhere and reading studies just because I was trying to educate myself, because I didn't find the information that I needed,
00:06:45:13 - 00:06:55:00
David Zweig
in the media. But eventually I became so frustrated because I wasn't seeing the story that was being told. And I was like, well, I'm a writer.
00:06:55:06 - 00:07:02:03
David Zweig
I guess I'll have to do this. Obviously, there was no such thing as like a Covid beat, you know? And it wasn't before this.
00:07:02:03 - 00:07:13:02
David Zweig
So, you know, this was new, but I'm familiar. I know how to read, you know, studies, and I know how to interview people and just dig around. So I certainly felt,
00:07:13:02 - 00:07:15:10
David Zweig
equipped to do this, and that's what I did.
00:07:15:10 - 00:07:29:18
David Zweig
And that kind of led me on my way. And I would say the sort of like prime impetus was seeing my kids at home sitting in their rooms, just staring at their stupid Chromebooks,
00:07:29:18 - 00:07:37:18
David Zweig
from day one. And it was clear this was just absurd. It was ridiculous. I went along with it in the beginning, because this is what we were told.
00:07:37:18 - 00:07:50:21
David Zweig
You don't want the hospitals to be overwhelmed. We need to do this. So to me, it seemed like an unfortunate trade off, but one that I supposed was reasonable in the beginning, but it very quickly became unreasonable,
00:07:50:21 - 00:07:55:05
David Zweig
to continue with this trade off. And that led me on the path that I've been on,
00:07:55:05 - 00:07:56:14
David Zweig
to this day.
00:07:56:16 - 00:08:00:08
Wilk
And I'm certainly glad that you took that path, Dave, because,
00:08:00:08 - 00:08:01:20
Wilk
I mean, a lot of us can remember,
00:08:01:20 - 00:08:02:17
Wilk
the,
00:08:02:17 - 00:08:04:23
Wilk
the first days, weeks, months,
00:08:04:23 - 00:08:07:17
Wilk
of the, of the pandemic,
00:08:07:17 - 00:08:10:09
Wilk
especially us who have children,
00:08:10:09 - 00:08:13:15
Wilk
you know, ironically, my wife and I had,
00:08:13:15 - 00:08:18:09
Wilk
kind of a double whammy, right? We had a a son that was school age.
00:08:18:09 - 00:08:26:19
Wilk
He was in middle school, and then we had just brought our daughter home from the hospital who had just been born in November or December, rather.
00:08:26:19 - 00:08:40:12
Wilk
And and so and, and she had issues that she had been in NICU so right away were being bombarded with, with the news media talking about how dangerous this thing is.
00:08:40:14 - 00:08:52:21
Wilk
And we know that we had just brought her home and she could be immune compromised. And my, my kids come and, you know, from school. So we're naturally we're freaked out. We think that,
00:08:52:21 - 00:09:00:03
Wilk
we think we're doing the right thing by following what we're hearing from the politicians and from the media
00:09:00:03 - 00:09:07:19
Wilk
but very soon after that whole process got going, things just didn't pass the smell test anymore.
00:09:07:19 - 00:09:16:07
Wilk
They weren't seeming right. Similar to what you're talking about with your kids, Dave. You know, my son, he's in his room staring at this Chromebook.
00:09:16:07 - 00:09:16:18
Wilk
And,
00:09:16:18 - 00:09:29:23
Wilk
then when they actually did open schools and then closed them back down. But he's getting on the bus and he's putting on this, this, you know, that this, I don't know, weird gator thing that kids were putting over their face and.
00:09:30:01 - 00:09:30:17
David Zweig
And how
00:09:30:17 - 00:09:32:21
David Zweig
old was he at the time? Well.
00:09:32:23 - 00:09:40:03
Wilk
He was would have been like 11 and 12, 11 years old when the, when the pandemic started and, and,
00:09:40:03 - 00:09:58:21
Wilk
so, you know, and we're making him take stuff off it and me too. I mean, I'm going to work. And we got my mother. She lived with us. And so we, we we were dealing with a bunch of different variables that and I know this is part of this,
00:09:58:21 - 00:10:09:00
Wilk
thing that, that you talk about in the book that this is kind of a more of a critique of media and how they played a part in this fear thing.
00:10:09:00 - 00:10:26:19
Wilk
But but yeah, we were buying into it. I mean, we were that that text book thing. Right? Well, what if you have your elderly, you know, grandmother living with you, and then your kid goes to school and, and gets Covid and then brings it home, and, you know, I'm going to work and everybody else is staying in the house.
00:10:26:21 - 00:10:49:05
Wilk
I mean, it was it was one of those things. So, so thought let's, let's kind of like take that direction first, because that whole fear mongering thing that's happening in the media talking about, well, of course, we can't let kids go to school because kids are going to get the virus at school, and then they're going to bring it home and they're going to kill grandma.
00:10:49:07 - 00:10:49:17
David Zweig
Yeah.
00:10:49:17 - 00:10:57:12
David Zweig
One of the the most important things I try to do with the book is dispel this notion that,
00:10:57:12 - 00:11:34:06
David Zweig
that we didn't know there's so much we don't know. We're building the plane as we fly it. You know, there are all these these expressions and excuses for for what happened. And what I try to show is that I take readers in real time, through a chronology, through a story of following what happened on what was known at the time and what we knew from not only at the time, but before the pandemic, with lots of literature that was, you know, written in the field of epidemiology and infectious diseases, that these non-pharmaceutical interventions or
00:11:34:06 - 00:12:07:13
David Zweig
NPIs, as they were called, things such, you know, anything that doesn't involve a pharmaceutical. So things like closing down schools, mask mandates, barriers on desks, six feet of distancing, all of this stuff, never had any evidence base behind it to be effective or certainly not to be effective over any longer period of time. There's some argument to be made that shutting everything down for a very brief window might help blunt the the spike,
00:12:07:13 - 00:12:10:10
David Zweig
of cases in certain areas.
00:12:10:11 - 00:12:29:18
David Zweig
But there is never any evidence that this was going to be effective over the long term, particularly, there is never any evidence and quite a lot to the contrary, that keeping schools closed or having them run on these hybrid schedules. Her kids are only in 1 or 2 days a week that that would be effective. While all sorts of other things in society were open.
00:12:29:18 - 00:13:01:16
David Zweig
It was absurd. The idea that adults could go to a bar or a casino or go have lunch together, chatting at a restaurant, while right down the street the school was closed and children were sequestered at home in their bedrooms, which was so manifestly absurd. Even now, even though I've done the million interviews and I spent years writing this book, I still have the same degree of of unreality that I feel thinking about what happened.
00:13:01:16 - 00:13:06:09
David Zweig
That is nuts. What society does this to children?
00:13:06:09 - 00:13:08:19
David Zweig
And that's something we need to really reckon with.
00:13:08:19 - 00:13:13:20
Wilk
Absolutely. I mean, I think, I think we absolutely have to reckon with this, Dave, because,
00:13:13:20 - 00:13:18:08
Wilk
that is one of the things and we've still yet to have it up to, up to this date.
00:13:18:08 - 00:13:27:01
Wilk
and one of the things that, you know, that I've been working on and a lot of the DTH listeners know that I've been working on for several years,
00:13:27:01 - 00:13:37:09
Wilk
now with, in conjunction with whether it be Doctor Francis Collins, former head of the NIH, or Doctor Jay Bhattacharya, current head of the NIH.
00:13:37:11 - 00:13:54:20
Wilk
Is is the idea that we still need a a truly comprehensive morbidity and mortality conference to go through all of these things step by step, talk about what we knew when we knew it, what we did, why we did it,
00:13:54:20 - 00:13:56:19
Wilk
what we could have done better,
00:13:56:19 - 00:13:59:19
Wilk
all those things, those things still have not happened.
00:13:59:19 - 00:14:03:16
Wilk
And that's one of the things, Dave, that I am not going to give up on. Good.
00:14:03:16 - 00:14:09:17
Wilk
As long as as long as I live. And until we make something like that happen.
00:14:09:17 - 00:14:12:21
Wilk
I'm not going to give up on it because I think it's hugely important,
00:14:12:21 - 00:14:28:00
Wilk
because we still don't have a lot of those answers, and we still need to position ourselves as a society, as a country, to do things better the next time.
00:14:28:00 - 00:14:43:19
Wilk
Because if the next time happens tomorrow, Dave, you and I both know we're going to be in a worse and we're going to be in worse shape tomorrow if it happens tomorrow than we were going into the last one, because we still haven't learned from a lot of a lot of the mistakes that are made. I'm not about finger pointing.
00:14:43:19 - 00:15:05:03
Wilk
You know, I've had this conversation with you. I've had this conversation with Doctor Collins, I've had this conversation with Doctor Bhattacharya and some of the most esteemed medical professionals on the planet. This is not in my opinion, about getting a pound of flesh, which I know a lot of people want. This is about finding the right answers to do the right thing.
00:15:05:03 - 00:15:26:03
Wilk
The next time. Far too many of the grievance grifters out there, and the outrage entrepreneurs are looking for that pound of flesh. I'm not. I'm looking for answers. One of the beautiful things about your book here, Dave, the research that you put into this, the diving in deep, because there's going to be a lot of people and I can even be a devil's advocate on some of this stuff.
00:15:26:05 - 00:15:47:21
Wilk
The deep dives that you took into and being able to definitively say, you know, there wasn't any evidence that said this, this was made up out of whole cloth to to do this or to do that, you know, kind of some of the things that Anthony Fauci may have said, some of the things that Deborah Birx may have said, some of those things, but then the
00:15:47:21 - 00:15:59:06
Wilk
the just the complete I don't know if we want to call it malfeasance of or whatever on the part of of many in the media, not all, but many,
00:15:59:06 - 00:16:05:04
Wilk
certainly many in the in the mainstream media not doing what journalists normally do.
00:16:05:10 - 00:16:30:20
Wilk
So let's kind of take it in that direction, because for a long time or for, for, since the this as long as I remember going back through history, media was supposed to be that watchdog. They were supposed to look at the entity that we require to have a civil society and, and be the one that said, hey, maybe this isn't the right direction.
00:16:30:22 - 00:16:40:03
Wilk
Can we can we course correct? Or can we at least tell the people what's going on so they can encourage you to course correct? That did not happen here.
00:16:40:05 - 00:16:43:11
David Zweig
Yeah, that's true that there's a lot there. But
00:16:43:11 - 00:16:44:03
David Zweig
for sure.
00:16:44:03 - 00:16:57:04
David Zweig
A main thread within my book is media criticism. And basically through what I would describe as a series of case studies of large features within the New York Times and other,
00:16:57:04 - 00:17:07:03
David Zweig
prestigious media outlets in our country, and how journalists failed at their most basic job, which is to remain skeptical,
00:17:07:03 - 00:17:08:16
David Zweig
and to look for evidence.
00:17:08:18 - 00:17:32:01
David Zweig
They weren't skeptical and they didn't look for evidence over and over again. Journalists simply acted as a megaphone. They were repeating, you know, so-and-so is an expert, and they tell us that we need to do such and such. You know, schools need to be closed, or they can open, but only if it's safe. If there are some arbitrary, you know, and they'll name some arbitrary benchmark that had to be reached.
00:17:32:01 - 00:17:57:08
David Zweig
Or there need to be Hepa filters in the school on the Hvac system, they need a Hepa filter. Otherwise it's not safe. Or these very just a long list of claims, six feet of distancing. And journalists just simply repeated that. Or sometimes there was no attribution at all, just said. Experts say experts largely agree that, you know, they need, mask mandates and Hepa filters before the school can open.
00:17:57:10 - 00:18:41:01
David Zweig
But there was no evidence behind these claims. And that's a grave disservice they did to the public, who is left deeply misinformed about both the risks, from the coronavirus to the larger public, and also from the perceived benefits of doing these interventions. So they were misinformed on both sides of the coin. And one of the things that I try to do with the book that I think is so important is to show the mechanics of how this actually plays out, to give people, you know, look, I've written for The New York Times, I've written for a lot of other very sort of mainstream legacy publications.
00:18:41:01 - 00:18:55:09
David Zweig
I understand how things work and people need to gain a window into how narrative formation happens in our culture and through the media and through various,
00:18:55:09 - 00:18:58:04
David Zweig
different groups that have a lot of influence in our culture.
00:18:58:04 - 00:19:05:09
David Zweig
In the pandemic in particular, that would be the public health and medical establishment that these groups tended to work in tandem.
00:19:05:09 - 00:19:16:18
David Zweig
They didn't have to. There didn't have to be a conspiracy where they were telling each other to do this, although that happens sometimes, but primarily they were all on the same team, the same tribe.
00:19:16:18 - 00:19:23:01
David Zweig
They almost all of them tend to lean quite far left, and no one really wanted to step out of line.
00:19:23:01 - 00:19:31:06
David Zweig
Very, very few people had the internal wherewithal to even see the error of of the viewpoint that was being expressed.
00:19:31:11 - 00:19:53:11
David Zweig
And if they did see it, many of them kept quiet. I had countless doctors reach out to me from around the country, and even former CDC officials who would read some of my articles. And I talk about this a lot in the book, showing how they would say, look, this I'm so glad you wrote this piece. You know, I really think kids need to be back in school.
00:19:53:14 - 00:20:00:10
David Zweig
I don't think this is helping anything. I've looked at the evidence. This is not beneficial and indeed it's causing harm.
00:20:00:10 - 00:20:19:21
David Zweig
Kids are back in school in Europe. They're not observing any negative consequences. And Europe is not so different from America that we, you know, have to just completely dismiss it, which is what we were told. So I had doctors and many of them were at, you know, very esteemed institutions, top university hospitals and things of that nature.
00:20:19:23 - 00:20:22:22
David Zweig
And they would say, but all of this is off the record.
00:20:22:22 - 00:20:34:13
David Zweig
Can't talk about it because they didn't want to be cast out amongst their peers professionally. There was one doctor who I asked, you know, well, what do people at work say about this? You know everything you're telling me. I'm so curious. Like, what are their views?
00:20:34:13 - 00:20:39:13
David Zweig
And he said, oh, I can't talk about this at work. So there was this
00:20:39:13 - 00:21:00:02
David Zweig
manufactured consensus that that people were unaware of. We were told, oh, you know, the public health community says such and such. This is what the experts say. But but that's not true. There were plenty of experts who disagreed but just weren't given a platform to speak out or were afraid to speak out.
00:21:00:04 - 00:21:40:02
David Zweig
Many of them were explicitly told by their administrators at the hospitals they were at, or institutions, and they said, point blank, you are not allowed to speak publicly against the CDC guidance or against Anthony Fauci or whatever Deborah Birks are saying. You're not allowed, period. Full stop. So the idea that the American public had a very, very distorted and quite honestly manipulated dated perception about reality because so many voices were prevented in one way or another, even through self-censorship, were prevented from coming out.
00:21:40:04 - 00:21:48:09
David Zweig
And the American public was largely kept in the dark about what was happening in Europe. Sure, it was mentioned in Europe what was going on.
00:21:48:09 - 00:21:51:05
David Zweig
Schools are open, but it was always framed,
00:21:51:05 - 00:21:52:19
David Zweig
through some sort of,
00:21:52:19 - 00:22:01:05
David Zweig
excuse one or another. Oh, well, they controlled the virus in Europe. That's why the schools are open there. But this was complete nonsense.
00:22:01:05 - 00:22:27:11
David Zweig
There is no evidence of that. When you look at it on a city by city or town by town basis, there were dozens, scores, hundreds of small towns and bigger cities within Europe that had a match in America of a similar population density, similar demographics where the case rates were above those in America. And that says its sister city or town or below.
00:22:27:17 - 00:22:51:23
David Zweig
And it didn't matter. None of this had in effect opening the schools there. But yet this was waved away and and and dismissed as if we were supposed to believe that there was no relevance, there nothing to be learned from that. It was again, I've used this word a few times. I think already in our conversation it was just manifestly absurd what we were being told or not told about what was going on.
00:22:52:04 - 00:23:18:08
David Zweig
And that's why I wrote this book, is that there needs to be a document of what actually happened. So when we look back in history, whether it's starting today, looking back, or in 5 or 10 years from now or more, that people will actually have a correct understanding of what went on, not this sort of convenient exculpatory narrative that's come out now where it's like, well, they did the best they could.
00:23:18:11 - 00:23:41:09
David Zweig
People were dying. This is scary. All this stuff. I keep seeing this argument, Wilk, where when people hear about my book or the premise of my book, I keep hearing the response. A million people died, the hospitals were packed. You know, you don't understand. This was terrifying. And these people don't understand. That is irrelevant to the argument I'm making.
00:23:41:09 - 00:24:03:19
David Zweig
Whether it was 10,000 people who died or 10 million, that doesn't mean that these interventions were going to be effective against a highly contagious respiratory virus. So someone going on and on about how terrifying things were or how they worked in an emergency room in New York and it was packed. That has zero relevance to the point that I'm making with the book.
00:24:03:21 - 00:24:13:19
Wilk
Yeah. No, I and and I like, well, unfortunately, the wordings that you're using manifestly absurd is absolutely accurate.
00:24:13:19 - 00:24:15:10
Wilk
Because a lot of this was,
00:24:15:10 - 00:24:17:01
Wilk
manifestly absurd.
00:24:17:01 - 00:24:26:08
Wilk
The and and quite honestly, there are certain things that I talk about in the work that I've been doing on this Dave, that,
00:24:26:08 - 00:24:33:23
Wilk
I do often say in certain respects, and in certain situations, people were doing the best that they could.
00:24:33:23 - 00:24:39:12
Wilk
And I think that's right. But that is completely separate from what you're saying.
00:24:39:12 - 00:24:45:03
Wilk
And the thing that the thing that bugs me a lot about the,
00:24:45:03 - 00:24:48:05
Wilk
the school closure thing. Well, there's there's several things,
00:24:48:05 - 00:24:50:13
Wilk
about the school closure things,
00:24:50:13 - 00:25:03:20
Wilk
policy wise and how we allowed that to happen. And then, boy, this could this could go on for a long time, but but talking about the political tribalism, which is obviously another part of what I do, what I talk about,
00:25:03:20 - 00:25:14:06
Wilk
quite often, but but how how it kind of turned the tides, the, the whole hate for, for Donald Trump and how when he tweeted whatever he tweeted about
00:25:14:06 - 00:25:16:01
Wilk
opening schools now,
00:25:16:01 - 00:25:41:10
Wilk
and then, you know, completely ignoring I mean, it's one thing to ignore what's happening across the pond, right? When, when we can, you know, people can make those excuses and they can kind of try and turn that on its ear and, and manipulate that in, in one way or another. But, but it's awfully hard to manipulate the data here from on, on our shores where you've got daycare centers and things like that going on and, and you bring the families into that.
00:25:41:10 - 00:26:11:06
Wilk
But, but just here's, here's kind of where I want to go with this because we've got a lot to go over yet and very little time to do it. The political tribalism aspect of this, Dave, how that turned something into and I don't think people understand the true gravity of the consequences of political tribalism, and this is one of them.
00:26:11:08 - 00:26:51:10
Wilk
This is one of them, Dave. That just drives me bonkers. It hurts me to my core because when we think about how we as a country did not course correct because of, in large part because of the political tribalism that that this stemmed from and did not course correct. And therefore the downstream effects, you know, learning loss is just one part of the, or one deleterious effect of the the lockdowns, keeping kids out of school and things like that.
00:26:51:15 - 00:27:04:14
Wilk
That's just one. And that's one measurable thing. But there are a lot of immeasurable things that happened as a result of the lockdowns. And we talk about the disparate impact on, on,
00:27:04:14 - 00:27:07:23
Wilk
on, you know, whether it be communities of color or communities,
00:27:07:23 - 00:27:17:04
Wilk
lower income communities, things like that. Let's talk about that, because that is one of the most under talked about things.
00:27:17:04 - 00:27:25:11
Wilk
And it's a direct result of not course correcting because of political tribalism.
00:27:25:13 - 00:27:44:03
David Zweig
Yeah. One of the ironies of the pandemic is that the left, which generally purports to be the people who are the defenders and champions of the underprivileged, this is how they see themselves. And ostensibly, you know,
00:27:44:03 - 00:28:00:22
David Zweig
aim for this, this type of protections of people with fewer resources that the left, through their advocacy of many of these interventions and quite particularly school closures, that the left harmed those people the most.
00:28:00:22 - 00:28:31:05
David Zweig
It's quite ironic and tragic that you claim to care about these groups more than anything. And yet your policies that you championed actually harm these very people. It's it's it's very hard to square for a lot of people. And I don't know the demographics of your audience, but I recognize it's a challenging thing to take in for people who who believe themselves to be good people.
00:28:31:05 - 00:28:57:03
David Zweig
And it doesn't mean they're not good people. But when you think you're doing the right thing, quote unquote, but actually you're causing great harm is really challenging, obviously, for people to accept. But the reality is these policies were harmful. They weren't helpful, you know, and in particular were school closures. This is something that happened that was not a trade off.
00:28:57:05 - 00:29:37:14
David Zweig
This was only harm, zero benefit. And this was obvious very early when schools, millions of children began going back to school in Europe in late April, early May, millions 22 countries started reopening schools there. They officially stated that this did not cause any observable negative consequences, yet this was ignored. Our our schools remained closed after that. Once that happened and we ignored that, we were just we just reached escape velocity and we were just never to come back to Earth, to anything reasonable for a very, very long time.
00:29:37:16 - 00:29:46:01
David Zweig
And much of this, as you know, it had to do with the sort of reaction to Trump that there's no,
00:29:46:01 - 00:30:12:02
David Zweig
logical sort of political affiliation with keeping things closed and being progressive. There were plenty of countries in Western Europe and in Scandinavia where they're much more progressive politically than America. And they were far, far less restrictive. There are plenty of countries that are to the right of America and were more restrictive.
00:30:12:07 - 00:30:37:10
David Zweig
There is no correlation about why the left in America felt like the right thing to do. Or maybe they didn't feel that way, but but but said the right thing to do was to keep things closed, and then you could only open them when it was safe, which they based on a whole series of contrived metrics and an interventions that had to happen.
00:30:37:12 - 00:31:02:08
David Zweig
All of this in some regards was political as because and we know this for the reasons I just described with other countries with totally different political leanings that didn't track one way or the other, whether and we also know this from once Trump sent out that initial tweet in the summer of 2020, saying to open the schools that immediately the American Academy of Pediatrics reversed its,
00:31:02:08 - 00:31:10:06
David Zweig
its guidance before Trump's tweet, it was very aggressive in saying, we really need to get kids back into school no matter what.
00:31:10:06 - 00:31:30:13
David Zweig
Basically, after almost immediately after his tweet, they reversed their guidance. We know this is tribal from the examples I gave you about doctors reaching out to me privately where they were told they're not allowed to speak out or they didn't want to on their own because that would you. One risked being aligned with Trump and Republicans,
00:31:30:13 - 00:31:33:12
David Zweig
which was outside of their, their group.
00:31:33:14 - 00:32:04:03
David Zweig
And we know this from the data looking at school closures themselves, there is no correlation between the amount that schools were closed with disease prevalence in their areas. Now, it was entirely correlated with the political leaning of that particular district that was closed or open. Everything, and on one level came back to politics in America. And because of that, millions of children, healthy kids were kept out of school, many of whom were kept out of school for more than a year.
00:32:04:05 - 00:32:32:18
David Zweig
And it's so important for our society to recognize this harm that was inflicted on kids who are innocent and who are healthy, and they weren't allowed to live their lives. And it's not just about learning loss. It's just you can't get third grade again. You just only that only happens once. You don't have your senior prom again. You don't have that football season your junior year that's gone.
00:32:32:20 - 00:32:49:01
David Zweig
All of these milestones and just kind of regular parts about being a kid were stolen from them, and there was no benefit for it. And this wasn't because we didn't know at the time the information was there and it was ignored.
00:32:49:02 - 00:32:52:02
Wilk
It's yeah. No, it's a true tragedy.
00:32:52:02 - 00:32:53:13
Wilk
David, I mean,
00:32:53:13 - 00:32:56:09
Wilk
you know, self-censorship, media malfeasance,
00:32:56:09 - 00:33:10:14
Wilk
political tribalism. It's these are all things that are just, true tragedies, that we that we need to, we need to recognize. We need to recognize them, acknowledge them.
00:33:10:14 - 00:33:15:20
Wilk
Figure out what to do better next time so that we don't make the same mistakes again.
00:33:15:21 - 00:33:25:16
Wilk
The book is an “Abundance of Caution - American schools, the Virus and a Story of Bad Decisions”. Dave, This has been an incredible conversation.
00:33:25:16 - 00:33:27:17
Wilk
I always enjoy talking to you. And,
00:33:27:17 - 00:33:30:00
Wilk
hope we can get together again real soon.
00:33:30:00 - 00:33:32:08
Wilk
Tell people where they can find the book, and,
00:33:32:08 - 00:33:34:06
Wilk
and we'll wrap this one up, my friend.
00:33:34:08 - 00:33:34:18
David Zweig
Yeah.
00:33:34:18 - 00:33:59:07
David Zweig
An abundance of caution. American schools, the virus, and a story of bad decisions. The book is not ultimately about the pandemic. It's about our country. It's about how individuals and how societies make decisions. So I want readers to come away from this book with an understanding about how the gears actually turn. And you can apply those lessons to anything.
00:33:59:07 - 00:34:03:12
David Zweig
It's not about the pandemic. That's simply the backdrop for what happened.
00:34:03:12 - 00:34:16:12
David Zweig
The books available everywhere. I have to say, at the moment, it's blown out of its stock in a lot of stores, so it's on backorder. But just please go ahead and order it now, and it might take a little bit, but it's going to come in.
00:34:16:15 - 00:34:17:04
David Zweig
And
00:34:17:04 - 00:34:27:22
David Zweig
I love hearing from readers, by the way. So anyone listening who ends up getting the book I'm easy to find online, come reach out to me. I'd love to hear your thoughts. And,
00:34:27:22 - 00:34:30:12
David Zweig
it's great to speak with you again, Wilk.
00:34:30:14 - 00:34:32:02
Wilk
So great to see you, my friend.
00:34:32:06 - 00:34:32:11
David Zweig
Yeah.
00:34:32:12 - 00:34:32:19
Wilk
You,
00:34:32:19 - 00:34:33:05
Wilk
Yeah.
00:34:33:05 - 00:34:37:02
Wilk
Wish you all the success in the world. And we'll talk again soon. David,
00:34:37:02 - 00:34:37:21
Wilk
thank you so much.
00:34:38:02 - 00:34:39:23
David Zweig
Thanks, Wilk. Take care.
00:34:39:23 - 00:34:59:17
Wilk
Friends. If there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. Share it with your friends, share it far and wide. And of course, if you haven't done so already, be sure to subscribe right from our website so you can get the Derate The Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week.
00:34:59:18 - 00:35:15:18
Wilk
So this is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything that you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make each and every day the day that you want it to be. If there is something that you would like to share with me, you can catch me on most social media platforms.
00:35:15:23 - 00:35:41:12
Wilk
Or you can email me directly. wilk@wilksworldcom. With that, my friends, I am going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
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