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Wesley Warshawer grew up in Tucson, AZ, in a house full of difference: a dad from Los Angeles, a mom from rural Indiana, parents from different political parties, and four childhood best friends from four different religions. None of it felt unusual — until he left. A scholarship took him to India at 19, then to Korea on a Fulbright, immersed among students from 65 countries. He came home fluent in cultures across the globe — and landed a data analytics job in Silicon Valley, where he built a bubble of his own without realizing it.
Then in 2017, a single poll stopped him and sent his curiosity gear into overdrive: about half of America voted for Trump, about half lived with a gun in the house, a third believed in a literal reading of Genesis. None of it matched the people around him at work. The feeling wasn't anger — it was embarrassment. He'd spent years learning about Korea and India and had never really tried to understand half of his own country.
When Covid sent his job remote, Wesley sold his apartment and drove to Bismarck, North Dakota — the U.S. city of more than 100,000 people that voted for Trump by the widest margin. He stayed 18 months, working by day and living in towns from North Dakota to Mississippi by night, before spending three more years as a digital nomad through Latin America, Africa, and Europe.
Wesley Warshawer grew up in Tucson, Arizona, and studied abroad in India and South Korea, including two years on a Fulbright Scholarship pursuing a Master's in Global Economy and Strategy at Yonsei University. After a 2017 poll revealed how disconnected he'd become from much of his own country, he spent 18 months living in communities across red-state America — from Bismarck, North Dakota, to Biloxi, Mississippi — followed by three more years as a digital nomad across Latin America, Africa, and Europe. He was named University of Arizona Honors College Young Alumni of the Year in December 2025 and served as convocation speaker at graduation. In April 2026, he presented at the American Anthropological Association Conference. Wesley writes about his travels and insights on Substack.
Website: https://www.wesleywarshawer.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/wesley-warshawer
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[00:00:00:00] Wilk Wilkinson: In 2017, Wesley Warshawer read one poll. About half of the country had voted for Trump. Half lived in a house with a gun. The realization embarrassed him. He'd built a life studying cultures across India and Korea, but he didn't know his own country. So when his job went remote, he got in the car and drove to Bismarck, North Dakota to find out what, or who he'd been missing. Stick with me. Welcome back, my friend, to the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross partisan organization working toward civic renewal, this podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ. Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can derate the hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast, share it with a friend and visit Braver Angels to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partisan divide. Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it. Wesley Warshaw grew up in Tucson, Arizona, 40 minutes from the Mexican border and a house where his parents came from. Different political parties and really different worlds. And his four closest childhood friends came from four different religions. None of this ever struck Wesley as strange. It was just life. That curiosity took him to India in 19 on a study abroad scholarship, then to Korea on a Fulbright. Surrounded by students from 65 countries, he came home and landed a data job in Silicon Valley and built a new bubble without even realizing it. In 2017, he read that poll. Half of America voted for Trump. Half lived in a house with a gun. And a third of Americans believe the Adam and Eve story was literal history. Wesley didn't recognize any of it in the people surrounding him, and that embarrassed him enough to do something about it. When his job went remote, he sold off most of his stuff, got in the car, and spent the next year and a half living in towns from Bismarck, North Dakota to Biloxi, Mississippi. Not to argue. Not to convert anyone, just to ask questions and listen. Let's get into that story with my friend Wesley Warshawer. Here we go. Wesley Warshawer, thank you for joining me on the Derate the Hate podcast. It is good to see you today, man.
[00:03:45:23] Wesley Warshawer: Happy to be here.
[00:03:47:18] Wilk Wilkinson: And I'm happy to have you here. And Wesley, I when you submitted that that guest submission. And I started looking at the work that you've done and you kind of your backstory and how you came to this, this realization about about your, you know, your Silicon Valley bubble. I'm like, yeah, this is definitely a conversation. I want to have a story I want to bring to the DTH listeners. And so, yeah, I'm grateful to have you here today. So so let's get into this, one of the things that I've talked about a lot on this podcast, Wesley, is, is how most of our growth comes outside of our comfort zone. any time we spend all of our time in our in our own little bubble, so much is getting missed. And I think you've learned that in a very personal way. And and I love that story. So, so Wesley talked to me about, well, take me back to your upbringing and, and your four closest friends being these people from four different religions or four different, you know, regions of the world or something to that effect. Talk to me. Let's start there. And then I want to see how you kind of took this. And when you get into post-secondary education and realize some other things, we'll go there too. So so let's start with the friends growing up and how that got you, or how led to you becoming interested in in stepping outside of your bubble?
[00:05:24:20] Wesley Warshawer: Yeah. I mean, I grew up in Tucson, Arizona, which is 40 minutes away from the Mexican border. And so I remember reading, you know, just as a kid about international things. And it just never felt that far away. It felt very close. I mean, it's not as popular now, but, you know, when I was growing up, people would go to Mexico for dinner. I mean, it was just so, so normal. So I never thought international things were that were that weird. My four closest friends in school were from different. Their parents were all from different countries, and they all spoke different languages at home. They were from different races. Religions. Never thought it was weird. If we go to this household, it's going to be kosher. If we go over here, it's halal, you know, over here it's vegetarian. I just never thought that that was strange or or weird. And I feel very fortunate from that. My parents were from different political parties, so I didn't think any any, you know, if you're on one side or another. My dad is from LA, very urban place. My mom is from rural Indiana. So, you know, I just never really thought just because you were from a certain place looked a certain way. I never just as a kid, I never thought that was strange or bizarre.
[00:06:40:01] Wilk Wilkinson: So you weren't seeing a lot of these, the divides that other people are, because you're being exposed to many different, different cultures, different political backgrounds, different geographical backgrounds. So. So some of the typical divides and and this, this and I'm going to I'm going to throw this quote out there early because it's one of my favorite one. Number one, she's one of my favorite people. But one of my favorite quotes from her is Monica Guzman says those who are underrepresented in our lives will be overrepresented in our minds and our imaginations. This is not a thing for you. This wasn't a thing for us because the people that that might normally be overrepresented in your imagination, they're actually in your life. You're seeing these people every day and and they're your closest friends. So so you don't have to imagine who they are. You know who they are.
[00:07:43:23] Wesley Warshawer: Yeah. I mean, I'm I was in a bubble just like everyone else. I mean, maybe my bubble was a bit different. I remember this concept of the bubble really solidified for me when I was in college. I went to University of Arizona, also in Tucson, and, I was playing on an intramural volleyball team. I've never played volleyball before, and I got paired up with this guy who was a foreign exchange student from Japan, and I had never been to Japan, didn't know anything about Japan. I'm 18 years old, probably, and we're talking about, you know, we play volleyball. We get all hot and sweaty. We're sitting down. We're kind of stretching or drinking some water. And he starts asking me some questions about Halloween Hall, you know, holiday that's coming up. And we're talking and I'm explaining it to him. And just coincidentally, I had just heard a joke about Halloween. And so we're talking about Halloween. And I said, you know, just making conversation. And I said, hey, do you want to hear a joke joke about Halloween? And, you know, the guy goes, yeah, that sounds nice. And I'm like, all right. Knock, knock.
[00:08:49:09] Wilk Wilkinson: Who's there?
[00:08:50:11] Wesley Warshawer: He just sits there. Oh, because.
[00:08:53:01] Speaker 3: He and I really I stepped on your punchline.
[00:08:56:23] Wesley Warshawer: No, no, that that that proves our our cultural similarity. I mean, you knew that paradigm. You know that when I say knock, knock, you know what to say. And he just sat there and waited for 10s and said, I don't get it. And and I just started laughing and it really like, oh, like, that's what the bubble is, you know, and it's not he's better than me. I'm better than him. It's nothing like that. It's just where we grow up and the culture that we have, that something as silly as a knock knock joke. You instantly knew what I was talking about and he didn't. And that just solidified, you know, not solidified. It started my viewpoint of all of us are are in a bubble. It's not bad or good. It's just a fact. Yeah, I'm from Tucson. And like, I remember when I was a kid, people who weren't from Tucson, you know, I'm ten years old. I have this memory of someone coming in. They're not from Tucson, and I overhear them ordering food, and the guy says something like, I like a burrito, something, and I'd like a flower tortilla. And anyone who's from southern Arizona knows that. That's not how you pronounce that word. And I remember being a kid just kind of laughing at him and and being a little bit. I was probably a snotty kid. Like, I was kind of rude. I remember someone asked me if I was on the ski team, and I laughed because I had never seen snow. I'm from I'm from a desert. And so I remember being kind of judgmental, kind of harsh, you know, coming into my bubble. And, you know, that was not fair. Yeah. And I would learn that later.
[00:10:36:17] Wilk Wilkinson: No. And this is a this is a fascinating thing because I, you know, at the date of this recording, I just got back from a trip abroad where where my family spent time in, in, in Europe for, for a few weeks. And, and I've got a six year old daughter who, And the reason that this this what you're saying here, Wesley, resonates a lot, especially right now, is because you take a six year old, you know, that's that's only ever known. her world here in in, you know, the Midwest and you put her into into an environment in, in let's say southern Italy or, or the northern, Friesland area, the Netherlands or whatever. You know, those two places are very, very different alone. But but both places, regardless, are very, very different from the Midwest, United States. And, she'll see somebody doing something or, or listen to somebody, you know, say something or whatever the case may be. And her mind cannot comprehend why they are doing. I mean, you know, you you take away the fact that that she's she's six. A lot of times people just don't understand the different customs, the different cultures, the different things. But then you introduce the idea that she's six years old and trying to explain that, things are so different, in other places in the world and things are happening. So what you're saying there resonates a lot because I just saw it, you know, time and time and time again when we were, when we were out of the country. And, you know, she would say something like, oh, well, that person's rude or they shouldn't have done that, or, it's not it's not them being rude and it's not them, you know, thinking, you know, they're not doing this to, upset you or, or or freak you out or whatever the case. That's just part of their culture they're doing. They live in different ways. They do different things. We get stuck in our bubble sometimes. Wesley and and our interpretation of the world and the way that we see things and the way that we interpret things is very different than, than other people in other cultures. So, a lot of the judgments that people make about people from other cultures and in other environments are simply because they don't understand it. They don't even know how to comprehend what that person may have experienced when they were growing up, things that they were doing. So talk to me then about, You had a more diverse upbringing than, than I think a lot of people in this country have, especially people in the Midwest. But then talk to me about when you stepped out of the country for the first time, and now you're that that person that's studying abroad and you're stepping outside of the country for the first time.
[00:13:44:18] Wesley Warshawer: Yeah, I mean, in some ways I did have a unique childhood, but in other ways, not really. And I still found myself in, in different bubbles, you know, my my life changed when I was 19 because I won a scholarship to study abroad in India for a semester, and that totally changed my entire life. Now I'm in a totally different culture, and I'm living in a normal dorm with normal students. And, you know, many insights, like my whole world, my whole foundation was kind of shocked, I loved it. It was the fastest I've ever grown, personally, I would say. And so I kind of got the bug. The next year I studied abroad in Korea, and a few years later I applied for the Fulbright Scholarship, and I went back to Korea for two years to go to an international school. And so I was in Asia for two and a half years. My program was two 400 students from maybe 65 countries. And so, you know, it was very global. And I got to travel a lot and it was incredible. But speaking of bubbles, you know, after all that, I decided to come back to the U.S.. I got a job in Silicon Valley as a tech nerd. And so, you know, work data analyst, basically. And I quickly found myself in a bubble. And, Silicon Valley is an incredible bubble. And my life changed again when in 2017, right after the election of Trump, I read this poll just very casually. I read a poll and it said that approximately 50% of the American public who voted voted for Trump. About 50% of Americans live in a house with a gun. And a third of Americans believe that the Adam and Eve story is literal, historic truth. And I'm not making any political you know, it wasn't about politics or anything like that. It was just like, whoa, that is not a representative sample of the people I'm interacting with on a daily basis. Sure, I'm in Silicon Valley. It's a very specific type of person. And the first thought that came over me at that moment was embarrassment that I had spent so much time going abroad and learning about other people, and I was so worldly and and thoughtful. And here I was, disconnected from my American brethren. And I was a kind of a shamed, actually, that was the emotion that I had, really. And yeah, I felt I felt bad. I mean, I had spent so much time to learn about Korea, and I had lived in China for a bit, and I had been in India. And here I am not understanding, you know, half my country. And it's not that I had any prejudice against anyone, as I told you, you know, my parents were from different parties and, you know, nothing like that. It was just like I thought, do 50% of the people I interact with on a daily basis vote for Trump or, you know, no, like Silicon Valley is very homogenous in that way, diverse in another way, but homogenous in that way. And so I kind of stood on it for three years. I thought about it. And when Covid happened, my job went remote. And like any normal human being, I once my job went remote. I'm not tied to California anymore. I sold all my stuff. I got rid of my apartment, and I hopped in the car and I drove to Bismarck, North Dakota and tried to talk and meet as many people as I could that were outside my bubble.
[00:17:24:18] Wilk Wilkinson: That is a wild move, man. And yeah, you say like any, any other person would do, but I, I think that's a number one. I think it's incredibly courageous. But I want to I want to go a little bit deeper into the. This you said the words embarrassed and ashamed and, and I don't know that that is a I don't know that that is the reaction that I would expect from from most people it might be, but that those number one, those two things, you know, embarrassment and shame are, are very strong. You know, those are, those are those are emotional action triggers. Right? I mean, they, they are and and so the idea that Leslie, that you took those and decided to take the action that you took, I think is incredible. What do you think? Talk to me a little bit more about. About that embarrassment and shame in terms of was there something in, in your upbringing that that kind of elicited that response within you? Do you think it mean? Were you driven, you know, in your upbringing, or was there something about your past that said, you know, I should know this, but I don't, and I am now embarrassed and ashamed.
[00:19:19:07] Wesley Warshawer: I don't know about that. I mean, I'm definitely a curious person. I've heard you say this in other podcasts. You've said something like, you can't offend me. I think I've heard you say that in other podcast. I feel the same way. Like, you know, someone from a different you can't offend me. It's like I don't take it personally. I'm just curious. And so, you know, I wanted to meet people who were living in a very different bubble than me. And, you know, I think there's some prejudice from, you know, the Californians against the, quote, flyover states and the flyover states call the Californians liberal elites. And I kind of get that vibe. And I just wanted to know, is that true? I mean, I was just interested. Is that is that a true representation of how people think? And there's a lot of derogatory names and I'm like, you know, is that really the case? And that's why I hopped in my car. I looked up what city in America, over 100,000 people voted for Trump with the highest percentage, and it was Bismarck, North Dakota. So I went there first. Very nice.
[00:20:30:22] Wilk Wilkinson: Very nice. Again, I think it's a I think it's it's an incredibly courageous move, Wesley. And and something that I, I mean, not to sound anything other than I'm just throwing some admiration your way because, you know, one of the things at Braver Angels, obviously the organization that that that I work for now, but one of our, one of our big things right now is, is the idea of, of promoting courageous citizenship. And it's not one of our big things. That is our big thing. We are, you know, courageous citizenship is, is, is the thing that we are in the business of doing. And this is an act of courageous citizenship in the sense that, you know, you look at your, first of all, your recognition of of the ignorance you had towards a particular thing, you know, and you say, I'm not just going to bypass this as part of who I am, I am going to dive into it and find out exactly, you know, what it is I didn't know, and you know why I didn't know it. You know, a lot of times we don't know what we don't know or just don't even understand what it is that we don't know. And and you've taken this thing and decided to to to look at, at this as an opportunity to learn. So I think that's incredible. So let's talk about what you did learn then, because again, a lot of times people just don't know what they don't know. And and then very few, I think, or certainly not enough when they do recognize, obviously that they have a shortcoming in knowledge of a particular thing, I don't think I just don't think that that there are many that would say, well, you know what? I'm just going to dive in headfirst and I'm going to go. So you drive to Bismarck, North Dakota, and which, as you said, it's a city. Over 100,000 people voted for Trump in greater numbers than than any other city of more than 100,000 people. What did you find?
[00:22:56:11] Wesley Warshawer: I loved it. I thought the people were incredible. Such a good time. So welcoming. I mean, 9 to 5. I'm still working my normal job. So, you know, same data nerd. But at the end of my day, I could close my laptop. And now I'm in Bismarck, North Dakota. So I was really intentional. I wanted to join a gym. I wanted to have a favorite bakery, a favorite butcher shop, a favorite restaurant where I could go and talk to people and meet people, like regularly. And if I could, I would, you know, invite them to coffee if I could. If that was too much, then I would just if there was someone next to me, I would just try to talk to them and just see what they how their life is and what they want for the future. And, you know, it wasn't always about politics. Usually when someone's from somewhere else and you say, hey, this is my first time here. Tell me about this community. What do you like about your your home? People are people love to talk. People are proud. And so I asked a lot of questions and people were very happy to explain, you know, what they liked about it. And I continue doing that for 18 months. Started in Bismarck, ended in Biloxi, Mississippi, and slowly made my way down, you know, you know, going through rural, rural, conservative, I guess, America and just talking to people, no agenda, not evangelizing. Just wanted to talk with people. And it was absolutely incredible. So many good experiences. But I think what it did for me was, it taught me that if you ask a question like, what's your opinion of Trump or Biden, or what's your opinion of the wall, yes or no? If you ask a question in a very binary way, then you get binary results. And so 50, 50 Americans, you know, love or hate Trump or they want a wall or they don't look at this division that we have in this country. And I would always ask, you know, if I was just talking to someone, hey, you know what? What are your thoughts on politics? And almost every person I met voted for Trump. But what I would say after that question was, I wouldn't say, do you think we should build a wall? What I would say was, if we were talking politics, I would say, paint me a picture of what you think a fair immigration policy would be. I wouldn't ask about Obamacare or not. I would say, what's paint me a picture of what you think a good health care system for the United States would be? Yeah. And I was so optimistic and happy. And it was unexpected that the pictures they were painting were the same types of things I was hearing in California. Sure. You know, I would hear the answers from, yeah.
[00:25:46:16] Wilk Wilkinson: Oh, that's awesome. Now, now, Leslie, were you telling people what you were doing? What? You're I mean, kind of the mission that you were on is this is this something you were sharing with people or or were you just kind of saying, you know, just randomly asking these questions?
[00:26:05:01] Wesley Warshawer: I mean, I had no agenda. I mean, I was working and just trying to talk with people. Hey, I'm, I'm working remotely here for a month trying to learn about this town, meet some people. And everyone was very, you know, they were friendly. They want to talk about their communities, talk to someone at the gym. You know, I met someone at the gym and they said, oh, there's a barbecue at the zoo. You should come. It's a fundraiser for something. So then you go to a barbecue at a zoo and you meet more local people, and just I it was great. It was such a blast. And, I really just, you know, I finished that experience. Finished that experience. Just feeling so optimistic, you know, that the pictures that people were painting, you know, I think we have a communication problem in the United States, but I don't think that we have a fundamental, our bedrock morals and ethics, our different. You know, I never felt that at all. And I was.
[00:27:03:23] Wilk Wilkinson: This is a this is a point that I think can't be overstated, Wesley. And that's that we aren't nearly as divided as many would have you believe. I mean, if you are, you know, if you watch the national news or you listen to the voices, you know, the talking heads out of Washington, D.C., or if you listen to the outrage entrepreneurs and grievance grifters on on social media all the time, you would think that we as a country are at the breaking point. We're about, you know, we're on the on the verge of civil war, you know, blah, blah, blah. We are not nearly as divided as those voices would have you believe. Those fringe voices that are the loudest and ugliest do not represent the America that you and I both know and love, right? They they represent a a small piece that, frankly, they represent a small portion of America that benefits off the vision. And and I think that's unfortunate, but but the the greater point here is, is that you wouldn't know and many people don't know how how much we have in common unless they do something like what you've done here. And I think that's I think that's an incredible testament, again, to your courage and to the idea that, you know, what, we need to get out there and have ask questions, especially questions of those that that we disagree with or that we that we think that we disagree with. To find out again what that picture that they're painting is, to find out how closely that that picture represents, the picture that we would ourselves paint. What was the most what was the biggest surprise for you, Wesley? In, in your your fact finding or. I don't know if I would call it a fact finding mission, but in your in your travels, what was the biggest surprise that you, you encountered?
[00:29:14:18] Wesley Warshawer: I mean, the biggest surprise was how similar we were. I mean, I was totally shocked because of exactly what you said. You know, the the media portrays us in a certain way. And, you know, people always say the media lies. Sometimes I think it's not necessarily a lie. It's there is a stat that says 50% of Americans want a wall and 50% do not. But the point is, is, is that a good representation of the ethical, foundational beliefs of Americans? And I would argue, no, that's not a good representative. That's not a good question. That's not a good representative. You know, people can show lots of stats about our division, but I just think that's not really the interesting part. I actually don't care whether you want a wall or not, or you voted for Trump or Biden. To me, that's not really that interesting. What is interesting is what do you what kind of country? Do you want to live in? What are your ethics? What is your morals? Paint me a picture for the future, for your children. And you know that that's much more important to me. And there's kind of a second part to this. So I did that for about 18 months, and one of my best buddies was just happened to be digital nomads. At the same time, our jobs were remote, and he invited me to go to Columbia. He was working remotely in Columbia, and so I joined him and was a digital nomad abroad for another three years in Latin America and in Africa. And I feel so fortunate that I had those two experiences back to back, because when you go abroad, you know, there's a quote, something like, the best way to learn about yourself is to meet others. The best way to learn about your country is to leave it. Or it's maybe it's your community is to leave it. So learn. Going to a different country helped me learn about my country, and I went to countries that really were fundamentally divided. I mean, really had cracks in the foundation of their country. And as I was thinking about, you know, my country, I was thinking, do we have anything that foundationally different? You know, I don't think so. And so just to be able to have those two experiences back to back, I think really help put the puzzle pieces together. Yeah. And, you know, I feel like such an optimist. Everyone is always saying, you know, we're screwed. Like you said, we're on the brink of civil war. I never felt that. You know, after my time in the United States and abroad, I definitely don't feel like that. And so I want people to to realize, you know, if I could spread any message, it would be just for Americans to appreciate how a great this country is, but be it's kind of annoying when I hear people now, it's like, you know, there's we have nothing in common in California. Sometimes you'll hear people say, you went to Mississippi. I wouldn't go there. And when I was in Alabama, I remember some guy, he he had a restaurant that was supposed to be the best barbecue in Alabama. So I went there and I walked in and he said, I'm talking to him. What should I order? And he said, you you have a weird accent. Where are you from? And I said, oh, you know, I'm, I work in California. And he said something like, all right, but don't you bring that California socialism over here? Right. And, you know, it's just like Californians have this prejudice about, you know, them. And they think that because I work in Silicon Valley, I'm a socialist. It's kind of a self-inflicted wound to me. It's like we're kind of missing the the deeper picture. And so I hope people can talk to other people and realize, I could totally be this guy's neighbor. It's not some foreign and exotic land. It's, you know, our foundational ethics are really similar.
[00:33:20:04] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. If there's one thing that I've learned from doing this work, Leslie, is that people are very, very quick to judge and criticize that which they don't understand. And, and it's it's out of, you know, it's out of pure ignorance and it's out of self-preservation, too, because people are told something about a particular people or they're told something about a particular place, and rather than actually going there or meeting those people to find out who they are or what what that place is like, they'll they'll just go with what they've heard and criticize it as, as if they, they really knew what they were talking about. And, and it's, it's part of the human condition that that is not, not one of the prettier parts of the human condition, but it is. And, you know, it's it's like my friend Daryl Davis quite often says, how do you how can you hate me when you don't even know me? You know, in terms of, you know, race relations and and the things that he's experienced over the course of his life and his story is, is, is not unique in the sense his story is very unique in many ways. And people can go back and look at other episodes about, you know, that I've had that I've done with Daryl Davis. But but ignorance leads to, to to fear that that that total misunderstanding. And when we fear stuff, we hate that we, you know, we ignorance leads to fear. Fear leads to hate. Hate leads to anger and violence. And without ever actually knowing what it is that we end up hating, hating and and and becoming angry about. So again, I've said it several times in this episode, Wesley, but but what you've done here is, is courageous. What do you what do you plan to do with with this information? Wesley, are you going to are you going to write a write a book or what? Are you putting these these things together? I'm sure you've I met a guy on the train the other day in, in in Rome. Who who is a young student that's just traveling abroad, and he's journaling everything. And him and I had an incredible conversation for half an hour on the train. What are you planning to do with this information, Wesley?
[00:35:48:20] Wesley Warshawer: I don't know, I kind of stumbled into it. So, you know, I'm a data person through and through. I like numbers and I fell into this. I was awarded recently the top alumni if in the Honors College of University of Arizona. And that came with the privilege of giving the graduation speech. And so I you know, they wanted me to talk and I said, I don't I don't know what I should talk about. And they said, well, you know, what's the biggest thing you would want to tell a young person? And so I thought about it and I kind of gave this, this beach a little bit, talking about my experiences. One of the things that I talked about was rejecting, rejecting the idea of ridicule, ridicule, culture. I maybe you've seen these shows, but Jesse Waters has a show on Fox where he runs around and he meets some kind of silly liberals, and he makes fun of him. And Jordan Klepper has a show where on Comedy Central, where he goes to Trump rallies and mocks some, some ignorant people, you know, that he meets. And those are both unbelievably popular shows based on ridicule. And I admit, I used to laugh at both of those shows because there are some funny interactions. But now I hate them. I hate those shows because a they're not representative, but even if they were, it's just so comfortable to sit in the comfort of your bubble where everyone watches the same TV, thinks the same things, reads the same media, and it's just so comfortable to sit down and watch your people make fun of the other team and ridicule them. And I hate that. I think that's absolutely terrible because that is, that's something that should be rejected. Rejected. I don't know if you notice on social media or YouTube, there's so many videos out there like watch This Trump or Get Destroyed by Facts or Crush Lib, Crush Lib, woke stirs with information or some crush and destroy. I hate all that.
[00:38:03:23] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, that's the whole make libs cry thing. Yeah. So I mean, this is what I call fear, outrage and grievance. Wesley. And I'm sure you've heard me talk about it, but but yeah, when when people are using ways, they'll use fear, they'll use outrage and they'll use grievance to keep us separated. Right. And this, this, this is a thing where we we allow these instigators, these outrage entrepreneurs and grievance grifters to to caricature and make a caricature out of those people that we disagree with. And it just turns into, into a justification to keep us all separated or a justification for, for me to say, oh, okay, these people are are moronic and I don't need anything to do with them. And it's just not a not a healthy way. Wesley, this has been an incredible conversation. Where can people find more about you?
[00:39:09:00] Wesley Warshawer: Well, I have a Substack that I chronicle some of these epiphany moments that I, you know, have documented along the way. I'm also a journalist, so I have written some of these into little essays. So I'm on Substack. I have a website, West of War shower and a LinkedIn. I'm not super into social media. As I said, I kind of stumbled into into this. I gave this talk at University of Arizona, you know, encouraging people to get outside your bubble. It doesn't mean you have to fly across the world. It could just be going to a different side of town. And so I stumble. I did that, and then I stumbled into someone invited me to talk at an anthropology conference about this, even though I'm not an anthropologist. And I stumbled into some braver angels and I talked to them. And, you know, so this is not I'm no, no professional, but I just want to share this story and tell people to get outside your bubble and to meet people and to to not be so negative about, you know, that there's people in different states that are weird or bizarre. You know, chances are you probably haven't met them or talk to them. That's right. So get a little bit deeper past the binary poles and understand what do they want with their life? Or how do they see the world? Or what kind of ethical values do they have? And you'll notice that they are remarkably similar from the northwest to the southeast, south northeast, west, rural, urban. You know, I'm so encouraged and inspired by the fact that we have a pretty large country. And yet, even despite that, pretty much, you know, the ethical values of everyone, the moral bedrock is pretty strong. And I think that's a great thing about the country. And I hope people explore it and and see that beauty for what it is.
[00:40:56:17] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. I mean, to your story is a great one, Wesley. And and I'm glad you're sharing it. I'm glad you shared a little bit of it with with the Derate the hate listeners. I appreciate you, man. Keep up the great work and I'll be looking forward to hearing more from you.
[00:41:12:01] Wesley Warshawer: Thank you so much. Great to talk to you.
[00:41:15:12] Wilk Wilkinson: Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate The Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together. So please take a moment to visit Braver Angels and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divide. This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friend. I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
Transcript is AI generated and may contain errors [00:00:00:00] Wilk Wilkinson: In 2017, Wesley Warshawer read one poll. About half of the country had voted for Trump. Half lived in a house with a gun. The realization embarrassed him.
He'd built a life studying cultures across India and Korea, but he didn't know his own country. So when his job went remote, he got in the car and drove to Bismarck, North Dakota to find out what, or who he'd been missing. Stick with me. Welcome back, my friend, to the Derate the Hate podcast.
I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross partisan organization working toward civic renewal, this podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ. Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time.
We did not create the hate, but together we can derate the hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast, share it with a friend and visit Braver Angels to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partisan divide. Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it.
Wesley Warshaw grew up in Tucson, Arizona, 40 minutes from the Mexican border and a house where his parents came from. Different political parties and really different worlds. And his four closest childhood friends came from four different religions. None of this ever struck Wesley as strange.
It was just life. That curiosity took him to India in 19 on a study abroad scholarship, then to Korea on a Fulbright. Surrounded by students from 65 countries, he came home and landed a data job in Silicon Valley and built a new bubble without even realizing it. In 2017, he read that poll.
Half of America voted for Trump. Half lived in a house with a gun. And a third of Americans believe the Adam and Eve story was literal history. Wesley didn't recognize any of it in the people surrounding him, and that embarrassed him enough to do something about it.
When his job went remote, he sold off most of his stuff, got in the car, and spent the next year and a half living in towns from Bismarck, North Dakota to Biloxi, Mississippi. Not to argue. Not to convert anyone, just to ask questions and listen. Let's get into that story with my friend Wesley Warshawer.
Here we go. Wesley Warshawer, thank you for joining me on the Derate the Hate podcast. It is good to see you today, man. [00:03:45:23] Wesley Warshawer: Happy to be here.
[00:03:47:18] Wilk Wilkinson: And I'm happy to have you here. And Wesley, I when you submitted that that guest submission. And I started looking at the work that you've done and you kind of your backstory and how you came to this, this realization about about your, you know, your Silicon Valley bubble. I'm like, yeah, this is definitely a conversation.
I want to have a story I want to bring to the DTH listeners. And so, yeah, I'm grateful to have you here today. So so let's get into this, one of the things that I've talked about a lot on this podcast, Wesley, is, is how most of our growth comes outside of our comfort zone. any time we spend all of our time in our in our own little bubble, so much is getting missed.
And I think you've learned that in a very personal way. And and I love that story. So, so Wesley talked to me about, well, take me back to your upbringing and, and your four closest friends being these people from four different religions or four different, you know, regions of the world or something to that effect. Talk to me.
Let's start there. And then I want to see how you kind of took this. And when you get into post-secondary education and realize some other things, we'll go there too. So so let's start with the friends growing up and how that got you, or how led to you becoming interested in in stepping outside of your bubble?
[00:05:24:20] Wesley Warshawer: Yeah. I mean, I grew up in Tucson, Arizona, which is 40 minutes away from the Mexican border. And so I remember reading, you know, just as a kid about international things. And it just never felt that far away.
It felt very close. I mean, it's not as popular now, but, you know, when I was growing up, people would go to Mexico for dinner. I mean, it was just so, so normal. So I never thought international things were that were that weird.
My four closest friends in school were from different. Their parents were all from different countries, and they all spoke different languages at home. They were from different races. Religions.
Never thought it was weird. If we go to this household, it's going to be kosher. If we go over here, it's halal, you know, over here it's vegetarian. I just never thought that that was strange or or weird.
And I feel very fortunate from that. My parents were from different political parties, so I didn't think any any, you know, if you're on one side or another. My dad is from LA, very urban place. My mom is from rural Indiana.
So, you know, I just never really thought just because you were from a certain place looked a certain way. I never just as a kid, I never thought that was strange or bizarre. [00:06:40:01] Wilk Wilkinson: So you weren't seeing a lot of these, the divides that other people are, because you're being exposed to many different, different cultures, different political backgrounds, different geographical backgrounds. So.
So some of the typical divides and and this, this and I'm going to I'm going to throw this quote out there early because it's one of my favorite one. Number one, she's one of my favorite people. But one of my favorite quotes from her is Monica Guzman says those who are underrepresented in our lives will be overrepresented in our minds and our imaginations. This is not a thing for you.
This wasn't a thing for us because the people that that might normally be overrepresented in your imagination, they're actually in your life. You're seeing these people every day and and they're your closest friends. So so you don't have to imagine who they are. You know who they are.
[00:07:43:23] Wesley Warshawer: Yeah. I mean, I'm I was in a bubble just like everyone else. I mean, maybe my bubble was a bit different. I remember this concept of the bubble really solidified for me when I was in college.
I went to University of Arizona, also in Tucson, and, I was playing on an intramural volleyball team. I've never played volleyball before, and I got paired up with this guy who was a foreign exchange student from Japan, and I had never been to Japan, didn't know anything about Japan. I'm 18 years old, probably, and we're talking about, you know, we play volleyball. We get all hot and sweaty.
We're sitting down. We're kind of stretching or drinking some water. And he starts asking me some questions about Halloween Hall, you know, holiday that's coming up. And we're talking and I'm explaining it to him.
And just coincidentally, I had just heard a joke about Halloween. And so we're talking about Halloween. And I said, you know, just making conversation. And I said, hey, do you want to hear a joke joke about Halloween?
And, you know, the guy goes, yeah, that sounds nice. And I'm like, all right. Knock, knock. [00:08:49:09] Wilk Wilkinson: Who's there?
[00:08:50:11] Wesley Warshawer: He just sits there. Oh, because. [00:08:53:01] Speaker 3: He and I really I stepped on your punchline. [00:08:56:23] Wesley Warshawer: No, no, that that that proves our our cultural similarity.
I mean, you knew that paradigm. You know that when I say knock, knock, you know what to say. And he just sat there and waited for 10s and said, I don't get it. And and I just started laughing and it really like, oh, like, that's what the bubble is, you know, and it's not he's better than me.
I'm better than him. It's nothing like that. It's just where we grow up and the culture that we have, that something as silly as a knock knock joke. You instantly knew what I was talking about and he didn't.
And that just solidified, you know, not solidified. It started my viewpoint of all of us are are in a bubble. It's not bad or good. It's just a fact.
Yeah, I'm from Tucson. And like, I remember when I was a kid, people who weren't from Tucson, you know, I'm ten years old. I have this memory of someone coming in. They're not from Tucson, and I overhear them ordering food, and the guy says something like, I like a burrito, something, and I'd like a flower tortilla.
And anyone who's from southern Arizona knows that. That's not how you pronounce that word. And I remember being a kid just kind of laughing at him and and being a little bit. I was probably a snotty kid.
Like, I was kind of rude. I remember someone asked me if I was on the ski team, and I laughed because I had never seen snow. I'm from I'm from a desert. And so I remember being kind of judgmental, kind of harsh, you know, coming into my bubble.
And, you know, that was not fair. Yeah. And I would learn that later. [00:10:36:17] Wilk Wilkinson: No.
And this is a this is a fascinating thing because I, you know, at the date of this recording, I just got back from a trip abroad where where my family spent time in, in, in Europe for, for a few weeks. And, and I've got a six year old daughter who, And the reason that this this what you're saying here, Wesley, resonates a lot, especially right now, is because you take a six year old, you know, that's that's only ever known. her world here in in, you know, the Midwest and you put her into into an environment in, in let's say southern Italy or, or the northern, Friesland area, the Netherlands or whatever. You know, those two places are very, very different alone.
But but both places, regardless, are very, very different from the Midwest, United States. And, she'll see somebody doing something or, or listen to somebody, you know, say something or whatever the case may be. And her mind cannot comprehend why they are doing. I mean, you know, you you take away the fact that that she's she's six.
A lot of times people just don't understand the different customs, the different cultures, the different things. But then you introduce the idea that she's six years old and trying to explain that, things are so different, in other places in the world and things are happening. So what you're saying there resonates a lot because I just saw it, you know, time and time and time again when we were, when we were out of the country. And, you know, she would say something like, oh, well, that person's rude or they shouldn't have done that, or, it's not it's not them being rude and it's not them, you know, thinking, you know, they're not doing this to, upset you or, or or freak you out or whatever the case.
That's just part of their culture they're doing. They live in different ways. They do different things. We get stuck in our bubble sometimes.
Wesley and and our interpretation of the world and the way that we see things and the way that we interpret things is very different than, than other people in other cultures. So, a lot of the judgments that people make about people from other cultures and in other environments are simply because they don't understand it. They don't even know how to comprehend what that person may have experienced when they were growing up, things that they were doing. So talk to me then about, You had a more diverse upbringing than, than I think a lot of people in this country have, especially people in the Midwest.
But then talk to me about when you stepped out of the country for the first time, and now you're that that person that's studying abroad and you're stepping outside of the country for the first time. [00:13:44:18] Wesley Warshawer: Yeah, I mean, in some ways I did have a unique childhood, but in other ways, not really. And I still found myself in, in different bubbles, you know, my my life changed when I was 19 because I won a scholarship to study abroad in India for a semester, and that totally changed my entire life. Now I'm in a totally different culture, and I'm living in a normal dorm with normal students.
And, you know, many insights, like my whole world, my whole foundation was kind of shocked, I loved it. It was the fastest I've ever grown, personally, I would say. And so I kind of got the bug. The next year I studied abroad in Korea, and a few years later I applied for the Fulbright Scholarship, and I went back to Korea for two years to go to an international school.
And so I was in Asia for two and a half years. My program was two 400 students from maybe 65 countries. And so, you know, it was very global. And I got to travel a lot and it was incredible.
But speaking of bubbles, you know, after all that, I decided to come back to the U.S.. I got a job in Silicon Valley as a tech nerd. And so, you know, work data analyst, basically. And I quickly found myself in a bubble.
And, Silicon Valley is an incredible bubble. And my life changed again when in 2017, right after the election of Trump, I read this poll just very casually. I read a poll and it said that approximately 50% of the American public who voted voted for Trump. About 50% of Americans live in a house with a gun.
And a third of Americans believe that the Adam and Eve story is literal, historic truth. And I'm not making any political you know, it wasn't about politics or anything like that. It was just like, whoa, that is not a representative sample of the people I'm interacting with on a daily basis. Sure, I'm in Silicon Valley.
It's a very specific type of person. And the first thought that came over me at that moment was embarrassment that I had spent so much time going abroad and learning about other people, and I was so worldly and and thoughtful. And here I was, disconnected from my American brethren. And I was a kind of a shamed, actually, that was the emotion that I had, really.
And yeah, I felt I felt bad. I mean, I had spent so much time to learn about Korea, and I had lived in China for a bit, and I had been in India. And here I am not understanding, you know, half my country. And it's not that I had any prejudice against anyone, as I told you, you know, my parents were from different parties and, you know, nothing like that.
It was just like I thought, do 50% of the people I interact with on a daily basis vote for Trump or, you know, no, like Silicon Valley is very homogenous in that way, diverse in another way, but homogenous in that way. And so I kind of stood on it for three years. I thought about it. And when Covid happened, my job went remote.
And like any normal human being, I once my job went remote. I'm not tied to California anymore. I sold all my stuff. I got rid of my apartment, and I hopped in the car and I drove to Bismarck, North Dakota and tried to talk and meet as many people as I could that were outside my bubble.
[00:17:24:18] Wilk Wilkinson: That is a wild move, man. And yeah, you say like any, any other person would do, but I, I think that's a number one. I think it's incredibly courageous. But I want to I want to go a little bit deeper into the.
This you said the words embarrassed and ashamed and, and I don't know that that is a I don't know that that is the reaction that I would expect from from most people it might be, but that those number one, those two things, you know, embarrassment and shame are, are very strong. You know, those are, those are those are emotional action triggers. Right? I mean, they, they are and and so the idea that Leslie, that you took those and decided to take the action that you took, I think is incredible.
What do you think? Talk to me a little bit more about. About that embarrassment and shame in terms of was there something in, in your upbringing that that kind of elicited that response within you? Do you think it mean?
Were you driven, you know, in your upbringing, or was there something about your past that said, you know, I should know this, but I don't, and I am now embarrassed and ashamed. [00:19:19:07] Wesley Warshawer: I don't know about that. I mean, I'm definitely a curious person. I've heard you say this in other podcasts.
You've said something like, you can't offend me. I think I've heard you say that in other podcast. I feel the same way. Like, you know, someone from a different you can't offend me.
It's like I don't take it personally. I'm just curious. And so, you know, I wanted to meet people who were living in a very different bubble than me. And, you know, I think there's some prejudice from, you know, the Californians against the, quote, flyover states and the flyover states call the Californians liberal elites.
And I kind of get that vibe. And I just wanted to know, is that true? I mean, I was just interested. Is that is that a true representation of how people think?
And there's a lot of derogatory names and I'm like, you know, is that really the case? And that's why I hopped in my car. I looked up what city in America, over 100,000 people voted for Trump with the highest percentage, and it was Bismarck, North Dakota. So I went there first.
Very nice. [00:20:30:22] Wilk Wilkinson: Very nice. Again, I think it's a I think it's it's an incredibly courageous move, Wesley. And and something that I, I mean, not to sound anything other than I'm just throwing some admiration your way because, you know, one of the things at Braver Angels, obviously the organization that that that I work for now, but one of our, one of our big things right now is, is the idea of, of promoting courageous citizenship.
And it's not one of our big things. That is our big thing. We are, you know, courageous citizenship is, is, is the thing that we are in the business of doing. And this is an act of courageous citizenship in the sense that, you know, you look at your, first of all, your recognition of of the ignorance you had towards a particular thing, you know, and you say, I'm not just going to bypass this as part of who I am, I am going to dive into it and find out exactly, you know, what it is I didn't know, and you know why I didn't know it.
You know, a lot of times we don't know what we don't know or just don't even understand what it is that we don't know. And and you've taken this thing and decided to to to look at, at this as an opportunity to learn. So I think that's incredible. So let's talk about what you did learn then, because again, a lot of times people just don't know what they don't know.
And and then very few, I think, or certainly not enough when they do recognize, obviously that they have a shortcoming in knowledge of a particular thing, I don't think I just don't think that that there are many that would say, well, you know what? I'm just going to dive in headfirst and I'm going to go. So you drive to Bismarck, North Dakota, and which, as you said, it's a city. Over 100,000 people voted for Trump in greater numbers than than any other city of more than 100,000 people.
What did you find? [00:22:56:11] Wesley Warshawer: I loved it. I thought the people were incredible. Such a good time.
So welcoming. I mean, 9 to 5. I'm still working my normal job. So, you know, same data nerd.
But at the end of my day, I could close my laptop. And now I'm in Bismarck, North Dakota. So I was really intentional. I wanted to join a gym.
I wanted to have a favorite bakery, a favorite butcher shop, a favorite restaurant where I could go and talk to people and meet people, like regularly. And if I could, I would, you know, invite them to coffee if I could. If that was too much, then I would just if there was someone next to me, I would just try to talk to them and just see what they how their life is and what they want for the future. And, you know, it wasn't always about politics.
Usually when someone's from somewhere else and you say, hey, this is my first time here. Tell me about this community. What do you like about your your home? People are people love to talk.
People are proud. And so I asked a lot of questions and people were very happy to explain, you know, what they liked about it. And I continue doing that for 18 months. Started in Bismarck, ended in Biloxi, Mississippi, and slowly made my way down, you know, you know, going through rural, rural, conservative, I guess, America and just talking to people, no agenda, not evangelizing.
Just wanted to talk with people. And it was absolutely incredible. So many good experiences. But I think what it did for me was, it taught me that if you ask a question like, what's your opinion of Trump or Biden, or what's your opinion of the wall, yes or no?
If you ask a question in a very binary way, then you get binary results. And so 50, 50 Americans, you know, love or hate Trump or they want a wall or they don't look at this division that we have in this country. And I would always ask, you know, if I was just talking to someone, hey, you know what? What are your thoughts on politics?
And almost every person I met voted for Trump. But what I would say after that question was, I wouldn't say, do you think we should build a wall? What I would say was, if we were talking politics, I would say, paint me a picture of what you think a fair immigration policy would be. I wouldn't ask about Obamacare or not.
I would say, what's paint me a picture of what you think a good health care system for the United States would be? Yeah. And I was so optimistic and happy. And it was unexpected that the pictures they were painting were the same types of things I was hearing in California.
Sure. You know, I would hear the answers from, yeah. [00:25:46:16] Wilk Wilkinson: Oh, that's awesome. Now, now, Leslie, were you telling people what you were doing?
What? You're I mean, kind of the mission that you were on is this is this something you were sharing with people or or were you just kind of saying, you know, just randomly asking these questions? [00:26:05:01] Wesley Warshawer: I mean, I had no agenda. I mean, I was working and just trying to talk with people.
Hey, I'm, I'm working remotely here for a month trying to learn about this town, meet some people. And everyone was very, you know, they were friendly. They want to talk about their communities, talk to someone at the gym. You know, I met someone at the gym and they said, oh, there's a barbecue at the zoo.
You should come. It's a fundraiser for something. So then you go to a barbecue at a zoo and you meet more local people, and just I it was great. It was such a blast.
And, I really just, you know, I finished that experience. Finished that experience. Just feeling so optimistic, you know, that the pictures that people were painting, you know, I think we have a communication problem in the United States, but I don't think that we have a fundamental, our bedrock morals and ethics, our different. You know, I never felt that at all.
And I was. [00:27:03:23] Wilk Wilkinson: This is a this is a point that I think can't be overstated, Wesley. And that's that we aren't nearly as divided as many would have you believe. I mean, if you are, you know, if you watch the national news or you listen to the voices, you know, the talking heads out of Washington, D.C., or if you listen to the outrage entrepreneurs and grievance grifters on on social media all the time, you would think that we as a country are at the breaking point.
We're about, you know, we're on the on the verge of civil war, you know, blah, blah, blah. We are not nearly as divided as those voices would have you believe. Those fringe voices that are the loudest and ugliest do not represent the America that you and I both know and love, right? They they represent a a small piece that, frankly, they represent a small portion of America that benefits off the vision.
And and I think that's unfortunate, but but the the greater point here is, is that you wouldn't know and many people don't know how how much we have in common unless they do something like what you've done here. And I think that's I think that's an incredible testament, again, to your courage and to the idea that, you know, what, we need to get out there and have ask questions, especially questions of those that that we disagree with or that we that we think that we disagree with. To find out again what that picture that they're painting is, to find out how closely that that picture represents, the picture that we would ourselves paint. What was the most what was the biggest surprise for you, Wesley?
In, in your your fact finding or. I don't know if I would call it a fact finding mission, but in your in your travels, what was the biggest surprise that you, you encountered? [00:29:14:18] Wesley Warshawer: I mean, the biggest surprise was how similar we were. I mean, I was totally shocked because of exactly what you said.
You know, the the media portrays us in a certain way. And, you know, people always say the media lies. Sometimes I think it's not necessarily a lie. It's there is a stat that says 50% of Americans want a wall and 50% do not.
But the point is, is, is that a good representation of the ethical, foundational beliefs of Americans? And I would argue, no, that's not a good representative. That's not a good question. That's not a good representative.
You know, people can show lots of stats about our division, but I just think that's not really the interesting part. I actually don't care whether you want a wall or not, or you voted for Trump or Biden. To me, that's not really that interesting. What is interesting is what do you what kind of country?
Do you want to live in? What are your ethics? What is your morals? Paint me a picture for the future, for your children.
And you know that that's much more important to me. And there's kind of a second part to this. So I did that for about 18 months, and one of my best buddies was just happened to be digital nomads. At the same time, our jobs were remote, and he invited me to go to Columbia.
He was working remotely in Columbia, and so I joined him and was a digital nomad abroad for another three years in Latin America and in Africa. And I feel so fortunate that I had those two experiences back to back, because when you go abroad, you know, there's a quote, something like, the best way to learn about yourself is to meet others. The best way to learn about your country is to leave it. Or it's maybe it's your community is to leave it.
So learn. Going to a different country helped me learn about my country, and I went to countries that really were fundamentally divided. I mean, really had cracks in the foundation of their country. And as I was thinking about, you know, my country, I was thinking, do we have anything that foundationally different?
You know, I don't think so. And so just to be able to have those two experiences back to back, I think really help put the puzzle pieces together. Yeah. And, you know, I feel like such an optimist.
Everyone is always saying, you know, we're screwed. Like you said, we're on the brink of civil war. I never felt that. You know, after my time in the United States and abroad, I definitely don't feel like that.
And so I want people to to realize, you know, if I could spread any message, it would be just for Americans to appreciate how a great this country is, but be it's kind of annoying when I hear people now, it's like, you know, there's we have nothing in common in California. Sometimes you'll hear people say, you went to Mississippi. I wouldn't go there. And when I was in Alabama, I remember some guy, he he had a restaurant that was supposed to be the best barbecue in Alabama.
So I went there and I walked in and he said, I'm talking to him. What should I order? And he said, you you have a weird accent. Where are you from?
And I said, oh, you know, I'm, I work in California. And he said something like, all right, but don't you bring that California socialism over here? Right. And, you know, it's just like Californians have this prejudice about, you know, them.
And they think that because I work in Silicon Valley, I'm a socialist. It's kind of a self-inflicted wound to me. It's like we're kind of missing the the deeper picture. And so I hope people can talk to other people and realize, I could totally be this guy's neighbor.
It's not some foreign and exotic land. It's, you know, our foundational ethics are really similar. [00:33:20:04] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. If there's one thing that I've learned from doing this work, Leslie, is that people are very, very quick to judge and criticize that which they don't understand.
And, and it's it's out of, you know, it's out of pure ignorance and it's out of self-preservation, too, because people are told something about a particular people or they're told something about a particular place, and rather than actually going there or meeting those people to find out who they are or what what that place is like, they'll they'll just go with what they've heard and criticize it as, as if they, they really knew what they were talking about. And, and it's, it's part of the human condition that that is not, not one of the prettier parts of the human condition, but it is. And, you know, it's it's like my friend Daryl Davis quite often says, how do you how can you hate me when you don't even know me? You know, in terms of, you know, race relations and and the things that he's experienced over the course of his life and his story is, is, is not unique in the sense his story is very unique in many ways.
And people can go back and look at other episodes about, you know, that I've had that I've done with Daryl Davis. But but ignorance leads to, to to fear that that that total misunderstanding. And when we fear stuff, we hate that we, you know, we ignorance leads to fear. Fear leads to hate.
Hate leads to anger and violence. And without ever actually knowing what it is that we end up hating, hating and and and becoming angry about. So again, I've said it several times in this episode, Wesley, but but what you've done here is, is courageous. What do you what do you plan to do with with this information?
Wesley, are you going to are you going to write a write a book or what? Are you putting these these things together? I'm sure you've I met a guy on the train the other day in, in in Rome. Who who is a young student that's just traveling abroad, and he's journaling everything.
And him and I had an incredible conversation for half an hour on the train. What are you planning to do with this information, Wesley? [00:35:48:20] Wesley Warshawer: I don't know, I kind of stumbled into it. So, you know, I'm a data person through and through.
I like numbers and I fell into this. I was awarded recently the top alumni if in the Honors College of University of Arizona. And that came with the privilege of giving the graduation speech. And so I you know, they wanted me to talk and I said, I don't I don't know what I should talk about.
And they said, well, you know, what's the biggest thing you would want to tell a young person? And so I thought about it and I kind of gave this, this beach a little bit, talking about my experiences. One of the things that I talked about was rejecting, rejecting the idea of ridicule, ridicule, culture. I maybe you've seen these shows, but Jesse Waters has a show on Fox where he runs around and he meets some kind of silly liberals, and he makes fun of him.
And Jordan Klepper has a show where on Comedy Central, where he goes to Trump rallies and mocks some, some ignorant people, you know, that he meets. And those are both unbelievably popular shows based on ridicule. And I admit, I used to laugh at both of those shows because there are some funny interactions. But now I hate them.
I hate those shows because a they're not representative, but even if they were, it's just so comfortable to sit in the comfort of your bubble where everyone watches the same TV, thinks the same things, reads the same media, and it's just so comfortable to sit down and watch your people make fun of the other team and ridicule them. And I hate that. I think that's absolutely terrible because that is, that's something that should be rejected. Rejected.
I don't know if you notice on social media or YouTube, there's so many videos out there like watch This Trump or Get Destroyed by Facts or Crush Lib, Crush Lib, woke stirs with information or some crush and destroy. I hate all that. [00:38:03:23] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, that's the whole make libs cry thing. Yeah.
So I mean, this is what I call fear, outrage and grievance. Wesley. And I'm sure you've heard me talk about it, but but yeah, when when people are using ways, they'll use fear, they'll use outrage and they'll use grievance to keep us separated. Right.
And this, this, this is a thing where we we allow these instigators, these outrage entrepreneurs and grievance grifters to to caricature and make a caricature out of those people that we disagree with. And it just turns into, into a justification to keep us all separated or a justification for, for me to say, oh, okay, these people are are moronic and I don't need anything to do with them. And it's just not a not a healthy way. Wesley, this has been an incredible conversation.
Where can people find more about you? [00:39:09:00] Wesley Warshawer: Well, I have a Substack that I chronicle some of these epiphany moments that I, you know, have documented along the way. I'm also a journalist, so I have written some of these into little essays. So I'm on Substack.
I have a website, West of War shower and a LinkedIn. I'm not super into social media. As I said, I kind of stumbled into into this. I gave this talk at University of Arizona, you know, encouraging people to get outside your bubble.
It doesn't mean you have to fly across the world. It could just be going to a different side of town. And so I stumble. I did that, and then I stumbled into someone invited me to talk at an anthropology conference about this, even though I'm not an anthropologist.
And I stumbled into some braver angels and I talked to them. And, you know, so this is not I'm no, no professional, but I just want to share this story and tell people to get outside your bubble and to meet people and to to not be so negative about, you know, that there's people in different states that are weird or bizarre. You know, chances are you probably haven't met them or talk to them. That's right.
So get a little bit deeper past the binary poles and understand what do they want with their life? Or how do they see the world? Or what kind of ethical values do they have? And you'll notice that they are remarkably similar from the northwest to the southeast, south northeast, west, rural, urban.
You know, I'm so encouraged and inspired by the fact that we have a pretty large country. And yet, even despite that, pretty much, you know, the ethical values of everyone, the moral bedrock is pretty strong. And I think that's a great thing about the country. And I hope people explore it and and see that beauty for what it is.
[00:40:56:17] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. I mean, to your story is a great one, Wesley. And and I'm glad you're sharing it. I'm glad you shared a little bit of it with with the Derate the hate listeners.
I appreciate you, man. Keep up the great work and I'll be looking forward to hearing more from you. [00:41:12:01] Wesley Warshawer: Thank you so much. Great to talk to you.
[00:41:15:12] Wilk Wilkinson: Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate The Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together.
So please take a moment to visit Braver Angels and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divide. This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got.
And remember, it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friend. I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
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