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“Paid protesting” is a phrase that tends to provoke an instant reaction — usually suspicion, sometimes outright dismissal. Adam Swart has spent over a decade inside that world as the founder of Crowds on Demand, organizing high-profile campaigns across the political spectrum. In this conversation, he makes the case that the topic deserves a more honest look than it usually gets — not because paid protesting is above scrutiny, but because most of the public conversation about it is built on assumptions rather than on how it actually works. It’s a divisive subject, and Adam and Wilk don’t shy away from that — they just insist on looking at it clearly.
● The history and evolution of paid protesting, and how it became a professionalized industry driven by money, messaging, and strategic optics.
● The real distinction between a protester, an agitator, and an activist — and why conflating the three fuels distrust in legitimate civic action.
● The three most common escalation triggers — close physical confrontation, blocking access, and disproportionate force — and the escalation cycle they set off.
● Why Adam believes transparency, not restriction, is the answer — including his proposed Transparency in Political Demonstrations Act, which would require funding disclosure for large demonstrations without limiting anyone’s right to protest.
● How social media has changed the speed and scale at which protests — and misinformation about them — spread.
● Organized doesn’t mean illegitimate. Understanding how a protest is funded and coordinated isn’t the same as dismissing the cause behind it.
● Transparency builds trust across political lines — and that’s true whether you’re on the left, the right, or somewhere in between.
● Escalation almost always starts small. The first trigger — not the last reaction — is where prevention actually happens.
● Lawful, respectful protest remains one of the most powerful tools of civic engagement we have — and protecting it means being honest about how it’s sometimes misused.
Adam Swart is the founder of Crowds on Demand, the original paid protesting and advocacy firm. For more than a decade, he has organized high-profile campaigns across the political spectrum and become one of the most recognized voices on how modern protests are funded, coordinated, and used for political and media impact. Adam has appeared on Fox News, Fox Business, NewsNation, OAN, and Newsmax, where his commentary regularly draws millions of views. He is also the author of the Transparency in Political Demonstrations Act, a proposal aimed at bringing funding disclosure to large-scale political demonstrations.
Website: www.crowdsondemand.com
X (Twitter): @ceoadamswart — x.com/ceoadamswart
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[00:00:00:00] Wilk Wilkinson: Paid protesting. Just those two words probably trigger something. Outrage. Suspicion, or maybe confirmation of what you already believed. But almost nobody talking about it has ever actually organized one. My guest today has organized hundreds on both sides of the political spectrum, and what he has to say about who's really funding the chaos in our streets might not be what you expect. Stick with me. Welcome back, my friend, to the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross partisan organization working toward civic renewal, this podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ. Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast, share it with a friend and visit Braver Angels to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partisan divide. Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it. Adam Swart is the founder of Crowds on Demand, the original paid protesting and advocacy firm. For more than a decade, he's been on the inside of an industry most people only see from the outside, organizing high profile campaigns across the political spectrum. That experience has made him one of the most sought after voices on how modern protests actually get funded, coordinated and used for political and media impact. You've probably seen him on Fox News, News Nation or Newsmax, where his takes tend to go viral because he says what most people in this industry won't. Today, Adam walks us through what paid protesting actually is versus what people assume it is. We get into the real difference between a protester and agitator and an activist, and why transparency, not suppression, is what protects the right to protest and what he's watching for, as a new wave of nationwide demonstration ramps up. He's even authored legislation aimed at bringing more transparency to how these events get funded. Whether you've never thought twice about who's behind a protest or you're convinced you already know, this conversation is going to give you a more nuanced picture. Let's get into it with my friend Adam Swart. Here we go. Adam Swart. Thank you for joining me on the Derate the Hate podcast. It is good to see you today, man.
[00:03:46:03] Adam Swart: Wilk, thanks so much for having me. It's great to be with you and of course, with your loyal audience.
[00:03:53:08] Wilk Wilkinson: I appreciate you being here, Adam. first, I just want to. For people who don't know I guess you're the founder of Crowds on Demand, is that correct?
[00:04:02:23] Adam Swart: That's correct. That's correct. I've been at it almost 15 years now.
[00:04:07:03] Wilk Wilkinson: 15 years as the as the founder of Crowds on Demand. And this is a this is a hot topic right now Adam. Because there are in this this politically outrage and grievance driven society that we live in right now the idea of paid protesting and, and paid crowds and things like that have been it's one of those footballs, I think, that gets tossed around a lot of times. I think it's probably being used out of context that, you know, it really just depends on who's talking about it and in what context they're talking about it. So I want to dive into that with you today, Adam, and really get the skinny on on what it is the this crowds on demand thing, what it is that you are doing. I mean, I know you've, you've, you've been on, on all the major networks. You've talked about this before. You're, you're almost taking this, I mean, as the founder of this organization. it almost feels to me that like, kind of taking a whistleblower stance. You can tell me if that's right or wrong. But first of all, before we do that, because I always like to get a little bit of the origin story, I like to try and figure out, you know, what people, what drives people to do what they're doing. You know, most of the time I'm talking to people in the in the depolarization space and the mindset space in, in how we how we do this. But, you know, this, this protesting thing, this is as old as democracy itself, the idea of protesting. You know, we had the civil rights movement. We had, women's suffrage, the labor movement, the protests of Vietnam. I mean, we can name any different period in history where where protests played a, a big part of, these different civic actions, but is paid protesting something new. And what got you specifically into this thing, Adam?
[00:06:16:22] Adam Swart: Okay. Well, that's a lot of questions. And one so let me try to I should have taken notes on all that, but little information on crowds on demand. were, as you alluded to, we organize protests. We organized advocacy events, advocacy campaigns, PR stunts for companies, you know, stuff that has nothing to do with politics. A lot of what we do has absolutely nothing to do with politics. It's either business disputes. You know, we've taken on anything from, you know, environmental issues, LGBT like anti-discrimination, you know, civil rights cases. I mean, I guess some of that is bordering on politics, you know, marketing for a company ventures, you know, all of those type of things. Right. So I started this, as I said, almost 15 years ago. I started at because I saw there was a real need for manpower because as you mentioned Vietnam, you mentioned civil rights rate from that era where you had very little competition for attention. So you would it's so easy to get college students out there in the 60s, right? You just have a flier on the quad and people would turn out in droves. Now this is much harder. The there's internet, there's a lot of other competing things. People have become a lot more apathetic. Also, I think people's participation on social media has given them the impression that that is participation. So they don't need to go to rallies or protests because social media exists as that outlet. So as a result, there's I saw, you know, there's a huge need for that in person manpower. Now, one misnomer about our business is, oh, well, they're like, oh, well, you pay protesters, that must mean that you're doing the thing that's very unpopular, actually, quite the opposite. We're generally on the side of what I would call the silent majority, right, against a vocal minority, because the people who are just working jobs, they have kids, normal people, everyday people aren't out there saying, I'm going to go to every city council meeting to to protest, for I know, let's just insert things that people most people want is well-funded police, responsible police, clean streets, probably no drug addict junkies on the streets, right? These are things that people support, but the people who support them are not out there every day, you know.
[00:08:46:12] Wilk Wilkinson: That's right.
[00:08:48:04] Adam Swart: So I think that the challenge is that our what we are there is to actually convey and act for that silent majority. Oftentimes, you know, and be that voice. And sometimes those people need incentive. Why do they need incentive? Because if you are a college student or if you are a retiree, or you're just some wacky person on the street who has nothing better to do, no kids, no responsibilities, you can go attend as many protests, as many city council meetings, no opportunity cost. But if you have a job, an hourly job, and you have kids, the opportunity cost of going to a protest is basically unpaid time plus child care, right? So how. Is that fair and. Kind of bridge the gap? So now I started the business hiring actors because, you know, I was in college in Los Angeles. I still get bad press for that. I understand we still will hire actors for PR stunts, but we don't. I when I started the business, I don't really care if people supported the cost or not. I was just providing bodies. Now we've become very focused on providing people who are enthusiastic. Why? Right. Number one, it's genuine. It's an ethical perspective. Number two, it's more effective to have people who are genuinely and support. So I have a team who actually interviews each participant in each event before the event to make sure that they support the cause. And of course. One other misnomer is that we have anything to do with any kind of like riots or whatever. Activity obviously we have. We're a business. We would have been shut down a long time ago if we did anything illegal. We're peaceful, respectful, protesting. I always said, say, that doesn't mean that we're not boisterous, but boisterous within what's legally permitted. We would never block off a street without a permit. We would never. We don't curse at people. Our focus is respectful First Amendment advocacy, you know, and we're so lucky to live in a country that gives us a huge rights to protest peacefully, lawfully. There's no reason to do things about real wrong way.
[00:10:56:17] Wilk Wilkinson: Right? And let me let me dive into a couple of those things real quick there, Adam, because this is where you're and I call them outrage entrepreneurs, grievance grifters. A lot of these people online will, they'll look at, at a, you know, one of these civic actions of, of of peaceful protest. And, and they'll look at the thing and they'll automatically dismiss, these massive crowds of, of millions. And I'm going to use I live in Minnesota. I'm going to take the Operation ice out thing. Right. They had Operation Surge that was, that was performed by by Ice and Customs and Border Protection. And then and then there was this, this massive pushback by protesters in Minnesota. Yes. To do this operation Ice out, I think that was the name of it. I'm not positive. And I don't know, you can tell me if you if you had anybody involved in that. But but the bigger question that I have is when people automatically dismiss, you know, or one of, you know, let me let me step back a second because there's, there's a couple things that you talked about their Adam that I do want to get into, but I'm going to kind of go in a roundabout way of getting there. So I just want to qualify I want to talk deeper about the, you know, the younger generation thinking, you know, these kids making the mistake that social media is, is some kind of action. And the difference in that, I think that's a key point that I want to I want to key on in this conversation. But before we get there, I want to talk about, you know, what you were saying there about, you know, finding people that are, are passionate people that are boisterous, but people that are going to be respectful and things like that, because
[00:12:46:05] Adam Swart: A lot of people think those are mutually exclusive. You have immense, right. You can be boisterous, you can be extremely passionate, and actually you're going to be much more effective because what you don't want to do as a movement is do something that makes your whole movement look bad, right?
[00:13:03:23] Wilk Wilkinson: Right.
[00:13:04:08] Adam Swart: When you're boisterous, when you're loud but respectful, I always say you in every one of our events, who are we trying to convince? We're trying to convince people, right. And you don't convince people by screaming at them, and you certainly don't convince people by blocking off a road and preventing people from getting to their jobs and their kids and and all of that. So we would never affiliate ourselves with that. Now. I think. You're, you're you're you're kind of alluding to one other question, which is I think that our politics has gotten so juvenile that people on both that you've heard the term astroturf, right? AstroTurf. Right. That is, that refers my definition of astroturf is movements that you disagree with. Right? So people who do not who want to dismiss a movement are like, oh, well, that movement, that's a billionaire movement. And our movement, it's all sincere when we know there are billionaires on both sides. Right?
[00:14:07:10] Wilk Wilkinson: Right.
[00:14:07:19] Adam Swart: You're like, I'm sorry, this United States of America, we're run by billionaires. I know, like, I mean, Bernie Sanders is backed by billionaires. I mean, the there's a billionaire running for governor in California whose principal thing is to take on the billionaires, but to supposedly take on the billionaires. He's spending hundreds of millions of his own money. So I'm like, billionaires run this country. So let's just like, first of all, like to spell the idea.
[00:14:32:02] Wilk Wilkinson: That as a baseline, right?
[00:14:33:08] Adam Swart: Yeah. So let's just. Wish that as a baseline and not like get into this self masturbatory thing of thinking that like our movement is like the movement that I agree with is pure. And the other side, oh they're, they're all backed by people. At the end of the day, both sides have money. Both sides have money to interest. Now, some billionaire backers or sincere in their support and some have alterior motives. Right. And I would say a vast majority have all your motives. It's a combination of having ulterior motives. And I mean, think about the billionaires who backed BLM. A lot of why they backed BLM was so that they themselves wouldn't be called out for their own racist actions. Right. That's why a lot of companies back to BLM right now, why do a lot of these companies back Trump. Right. Because they don't want him to reprisal. Right. So these companies and billionaires are always trying to ride the wave of who's in charge and also trying to change things of who's in charge. So this is how it works. So people who pretend like there's the difference between, oh, our movement is grassroots. It's like, have you looked at your donors? Like, believe me, like any movement that's been at all successful in, you know, gay rights, civil rights, MAGA, Tea Party, whatever has had a ton of very wealthy people behind it. And, you know, there we go. So this idea of like, use using this idea of saying, oh, well, he pays crowds and he pays crowds like you all pay crowd, everybody pays people. You all have paid lawyers, you all have paid consultants. You all have paid. Like, let's let's focus more on is what you're saying, right. So you mentioned Ice right now are let's focus on the issue of ice. I mean, and I love what you're doing, which is try to depolarize because a few things can be true one at one time. We have a lot of criminal, illegal people who are actually criminals. And I don't mean just having by virtue of crossing the border, but there are people who have committed crimes in. The United States. And they need to be sent back, or in many cases, imprisoned in this country for the crimes that they committed.
[00:16:41:22] Wilk Wilkinson: should not be a controversial issue, in my opinion.
[00:16:44:20] Adam Swart: On that 100. So my thing is like, let's find. That is common ground. I don't know anybody who disagrees that if you commit a crime in the United States, you should be in prison in the United States and then sent back to your home country if you are number one. Number two. I think that people who are here lawfully should not be harassed by law enforcement. Right.
[00:17:07:14] Wilk Wilkinson: And we agree on that.
[00:17:08:19] Adam Swart: Like we should not have a four people coming out in balaclavas from a black van demanding to see your papers based on nothing more than the color of your skin. Right. Like, can we all kind of agree that that's bad?
[00:17:25:15] Wilk Wilkinson: I would hope that we could add them. Unfortunately, there's a lot of people that that have not been able to to to come to that point of common ground because we live in a time and this kind of goes back to what I was saying, you know, this, this time of outrage and, I call it fog, fear, outrage and grievance. But the reality is, is us versus them. Tribalism has has created this, this incapacity for people to, to look at, at things objectively from, from trying to, from multiple angles and.
[00:17:59:09] Adam Swart: On to our. Side versus your side. Right. As an independent, I. Have no side. I'm not loyal to either of those parties, and they're both very corrupt. And the reality is my take on it is that and you kind of mentioned, oh, are you a whistleblower in this? I mean, my take is, look, protest has the capacity to divide. Yes, it's true, but protest also has the capacity, especially our kind of work has the capacity to actually create movements to bring us together. And that's what I'm looking to do, is be part of things, of taking on the interest that we all are upset with. Because if you actually talk in, as you have in your the course of your work, talk to people. Most people agree on basic tenets. Like I said, I think most people agree. If you commit a crime in the United States, you should be sent back, right? And in prison, most people agree that you should not be harassed based on the color of your skin, and that there should be kind of due process for people who are detained in the United States. I was asked about by a right wing podcasters like, do illegal immigrants deserve due process? It's like, well, how do we know they are illegal unless they have due process?
[00:19:16:04] Wilk Wilkinson: So great that it's a.
[00:19:17:11] Adam Swart: Prerequisite to. Have process. To to determine that they are in fact illegal, because. I. Would not want to be harassed or you would not want to be harassed on some suspicion of, without any reasonable cause. So I think that the reality is, is that most of us agree. But I think what I'm trying to do is take on these sort of unite unifying campaigns. Right. Interesting campaigns that are focused. On Who is who is dividing us. I mean, like, so one example of who's dividing us is big tech, right? Big tax algorithms purposefully are engineered to divide. They want to take you down a rabbit hole. I'm sure you know people. I know people who've been taken down right wing, rabbit hole, left wing, rabbit hole and body dysmorphia. Rabbit hole, right like jealousy, rabbit hole, right, all kinds of rabbit hole. Social media. Because then they own you, and then they sell you ads for every minute that you're there. So if if you just go on and message grandma and chat with them, chat with some friends, maybe have a like a sincere debate with someone on the other political side. But like respectful, right? They they might feel like they're not making as much money off of you, right? I disagree, I think they can make money by keeping you happy, but they're they seem to think that they're going to make more money off keeping you miserable. And that's why they're doing it right.
[00:20:48:06] Wilk Wilkinson: When I call it fog, Adam, I call it fear, like I said. Well, I said it a few minutes ago, but fear, outrage and grievance is the model by which a lot of these platforms and a lot of people in media and politics keep us scared. They keep us mad, they keep us aggrieved. it's a real problem out there. Let's, let's, let's bring this back to the protest thing though, because this is this is where I, I'm interested in what you do specifically, Adam. And this is, this is an important thing that I want the listeners to, to, to catch on to is, you know, this idea of protest, like I said in the very beginning of this conversation, this is as old as America. You know, this goes back before the founding of the United States of America. Protest is it has been a has been a thing from from the beginning. And my question for you, when we start thinking about, organized, well, in your case, the business of crowds on demand, things like that is, do you think Do you think society is starting to lose trust in the in the concept of protest in the concept? Because we hear these things, right? You know. Well, we've heard it plenty of times is, oh, well, those are just paid protesters and don't these people have a job and blah, blah, blah. And you already talked about this a little bit, but talk a little bit more about the concept of trust in this concept or the idea of trust in the concept of protest itself, because I think if people lose trust in anything, it it ceases to be effective.
[00:22:27:03] Adam Swart: Well, I don't. Think it ceases to be effective, but I think that the dynamics of the protests has changed. So that is true. So for better or for worse, because by the way, protesting is not new. I didn't invent the concept, I promise. I mean, don't give me more credit than I'm to. Write me. The idea of paid protesting, the idea of influence groups, and of key players trying to co-opt movements for their own benefit is also nothing new. So I don't want to take more credit than I'm due on that part. What I will say is I think people and look, I almost do feel that I have did have a role in this is because of comedy, of like what we do people do regularly because I've been out in the media people or regularly throwing out the concept of paid protests as an insult I've went over earlier in the program. I think that's stupid, because both sides do it, and because the people who are being paid are actually, like more representative of anything of the people, of. Ordinary people. Than than the others. But you're asking about trust. And what I think the new purpose of protest is, is more to get media attention from your side and social media attention from your side, rather than to be a broad, convincing force. So that is the difference. So if you. Look at the civil rights movement and the march on the Edmund Pettus Bridge, for example, where peaceful protesters were confronted by the viciousness of the Jim Crow law enforcement, right. And everyone saw on the big three networks the ABC, CBS, NBC in live color, the brutality of the Jim Crow regime. Right. And Mr. and Mrs. America, the ordinary people who might not be super one way or the other, not political, could see what the Jim Crow law enforcement was doing to the black people in this country and could see that that was a true injustice. And that. Is what helped move the tide of the country towards civil rights is ordinary, nonpolitical people seeing that in live color and then saying, look, this is wrong. This is this is an abomination, right? That is harder to do today because media is siloed. Your media, whatever your side is, is going to cover your protests very favorably. And that is then going to be amplified in your social media. So whether that's right wing, left wing, Maha progressive, you know, socialist, whatever that lane is that you occupy, your lane is going to amplify it, but people not in your lane are going to find the dumbest people in the crowd and ridicule them and make it look like all the people are dumb. They're going to make they're going to find the dumbest or most radical slogans, and they're going to cut it down there either. If they don't, they're either going to do that or they're going to ignore it entirely. You know.
[00:25:43:03] Wilk Wilkinson: They're going to make that that caricature. They're going to make that caricature the definition of the whole protest itself. Or action itself.
[00:25:53:06] Adam Swart: On the other hand. So all that is true, on the other hand, one beautiful thing protest can do, but it has to be relentless. It has to be regular is convince people IRL in real life. So your. Capacity to convince people on social media or in the media who are not currently in your lane is limited. But if I am walking by a protest and I see a respectful, reasoned protest on a side that I disagree with, maybe I can be convinced. You see what I'm saying. Or certainly if. I'm. On the fence. So there is a capacity. And in this world of AI and social media and everything is online, there is this value of being like, hey, we can reach you in person. There's not much you can often do to reach people who are in a silo if you're on the other silo, but protest is actually one of those ways you can do it, but it. Is a. Little harder because you don't have the capacity that you did like in the civil rights movement. Like if you were to try to build the civil rights movement today, would it be as as easy to do? Not easy, because it was obviously difficult. But what would it have been as easy to convey that point of the brutality of Jim Crow law enforcement as it as it was then? Not sure, because you could the in that case, you could have had people on YouTubers like and you see this all the time like Jordan. Clever. The Daily Show will go to MAGA rallies and pick the dumbest people and make them look stupid. Plenty of right wing YouTubers, you know, Nick, Shirley or whoever. Like. To left wing events and try to. I mean, Jesse Waters kind of got his start doing that.
[00:27:38:21] Wilk Wilkinson: Got it. Yeah. Doing the. Yep, yep. When he was, when he was with Bill O'Reilly. Yeah. So that man on the street just outraged.
[00:27:46:06] Adam Swart: There's a big industry. Of doing that. So Jesse Waters was kind of early in that field. But now there's plenty of YouTubers. He'll do this on both sides. And my point is that it's really hard. It's harder to break through that now. So that's how it's really changed. And I think that but I think that saying, oh, paid protests, it's kind of a cop out because like what? Like it's just so funny because like Joe Rogan like, critiques my business all the time. And it's like, dude, you're criticizing somebody for getting 100, $200 for, hey, for protesting when you're getting $100 million. And we're supposed to expect that Joe Rogan is genuine when and he's criticizing, he's saying that 100 or $200 will lead people to sell out when he's claiming he's genuine at 100 million. So that. It's kind of a classist argument.
[00:28:36:23] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. And I don't you know, I try not to ascribe motives to anybody, but I think, I mean, I think your point is well taken and it's important to, to to say that. And here's the thing about this, Adam, is, is I think people need to to be able to draw that distinction between what is a paid protester and what is a paid agitator, because I think they are.
[00:28:59:03] Adam Swart: Very, very different things. Well. First of all, though, Wilk, if you are agitating and by agitating, just I want to be clear with our definitions, is doing something unlawful in theoretical furtherance of a cause. Right. So yeah. I say theoretical because I don't think it's I don't think it serves the cause. But if you're lying in a road, if you're throwing a brick, whatever, you're an agitator. If you're looting, you're an agitator. Right? So if you're an agitator. I don't care if you're pater not paid. I want you punish. I guess the problem that that is inherent if you're a paid agitator is who is paying you, and you've got to go to change. I mean, I've offered to the government my help, and they haven't accepted it in fighting the paid agitators, because I don't want that because it like, people falsely ascribe that to me, like completely falsely. So I want to crack down what they're not doing is going up the chain. And it's a big mistake because what you need to say is, okay, someone got paid $1,000, $2,000 to do something legal. Okay, well, who paid you? Well, who paid them? Who paid them? Go up the chain and find out. So that's the more concerning part about these paid agitators is who is paying them? And is there are there is there an industry of because they don't have a corporate website, you know, they don't have an LLC, you know.
[00:30:19:02] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah.
[00:30:19:17] Adam Swart: So so you're going to have to actually do old fashioned police work to actually get at who was the root source of that.
[00:30:27:01] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. You're not going to get you're not going to get some philanthropist out there that that is got an open ad out there on Facebook Marketplace for. Yeah. Come break the law for me, right?
[00:30:37:18] Adam Swart: No, I mean, you see. Those ads, those are all just fake done for media clicks.
[00:30:42:06] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, yeah. No, it's I was making a joke, but it's it's yeah, it's it's and like I said, there's a distinction made and I think you've made a bunch of incredible points here, Adam. And this is, this is something, you know, far more than we can get into in a, in a half hour conversation. But I the reason that I wanted you to come on is because, like I said, there's just far too many people out there that will that will dismiss. This is the this is the reason that I brought up the trust thing and people's willingness to to to think beyond just the headlines and think beyond the rage bait right into what what this this crowds on demand thing is what paid protesting actually is as to as opposed to what it's betrayed as. Because, again, just like so many things that that we talk about, you know, I talk about here on the podcast, what we talk about in, in the depolarization space in general is there's far more nuanced than you're going to find in just your general outrage headlines and things like that. And, and what you're doing here, I think, is important, you know, and and I love drawing that distinction between what a difference what the difference is between a paid protester and a paid agitator and how we actually get our messages across. Because as I've talked about plenty of times, what is our desired outcome? Because if you're out there and you're throwing rocks and bottles and and things like that, you're not going to win. Adam, tell, tell the Derate the hate listeners where they can find more about you. I know Crowds on Demand is your is your organization where they can find out more about you and see more of the kind of the work that you're doing so that they can find out for themselves and clear up a lot of the misconceptions.
[00:32:29:22] Adam Swart: Crowds On demand. Com that's crowds on demand. Com. Yeah. Feel free. We're always interested in bringing in more people and also taking on like interesting campaigns ideally something that's kind of nuanced and that's like that's got that that requires, I like to say, when the legal system is too slow, when the government system is rigged against you, protest is the avenue that you have as American, to fight for your rights. You know, within the within the confines of the law. So you use your right.
[00:33:06:20] Wilk Wilkinson: Very good. Yes, people need to use their rights. And again, protest is as old as the country itself and, and and even older. So I appreciate your time today, Adam. It's been it's been great getting to know a little bit about you and we will talk again. Thank you so much.
[00:33:21:18] Adam Swart: Thank you sir.
[00:33:23:21] Wilk Wilkinson: Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate The Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together. So please take a moment to visit Braver Angels and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divide. This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friend. I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
Transcript is AI generated and may contain errors [00:00:00:00] Wilk Wilkinson: Paid protesting. Just those two words probably trigger something. Outrage. Suspicion, or maybe confirmation of what you already believed.
But almost nobody talking about it has ever actually organized one. My guest today has organized hundreds on both sides of the political spectrum, and what he has to say about who's really funding the chaos in our streets might not be what you expect. Stick with me. Welcome back, my friend, to the Derate the Hate podcast.
I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross partisan organization working toward civic renewal, this podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ. Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time.
We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast, share it with a friend and visit Braver Angels to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partisan divide. Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it.
Adam Swart is the founder of Crowds on Demand, the original paid protesting and advocacy firm. For more than a decade, he's been on the inside of an industry most people only see from the outside, organizing high profile campaigns across the political spectrum. That experience has made him one of the most sought after voices on how modern protests actually get funded, coordinated and used for political and media impact. You've probably seen him on Fox News, News Nation or Newsmax, where his takes tend to go viral because he says what most people in this industry won't.
Today, Adam walks us through what paid protesting actually is versus what people assume it is. We get into the real difference between a protester and agitator and an activist, and why transparency, not suppression, is what protects the right to protest and what he's watching for, as a new wave of nationwide demonstration ramps up. He's even authored legislation aimed at bringing more transparency to how these events get funded. Whether you've never thought twice about who's behind a protest or you're convinced you already know, this conversation is going to give you a more nuanced picture.
Let's get into it with my friend Adam Swart. Here we go. Adam Swart. Thank you for joining me on the Derate the Hate podcast.
It is good to see you today, man. [00:03:46:03] Adam Swart: Wilk, thanks so much for having me. It's great to be with you and of course, with your loyal audience. [00:03:53:08] Wilk Wilkinson: I appreciate you being here, Adam.
first, I just want to. For people who don't know I guess you're the founder of Crowds on Demand, is that correct? [00:04:02:23] Adam Swart: That's correct. That's correct.
I've been at it almost 15 years now. [00:04:07:03] Wilk Wilkinson: 15 years as the as the founder of Crowds on Demand. And this is a this is a hot topic right now Adam. Because there are in this this politically outrage and grievance driven society that we live in right now the idea of paid protesting and, and paid crowds and things like that have been it's one of those footballs, I think, that gets tossed around a lot of times.
I think it's probably being used out of context that, you know, it really just depends on who's talking about it and in what context they're talking about it. So I want to dive into that with you today, Adam, and really get the skinny on on what it is the this crowds on demand thing, what it is that you are doing. I mean, I know you've, you've, you've been on, on all the major networks. You've talked about this before.
You're, you're almost taking this, I mean, as the founder of this organization. it almost feels to me that like, kind of taking a whistleblower stance. You can tell me if that's right or wrong. But first of all, before we do that, because I always like to get a little bit of the origin story, I like to try and figure out, you know, what people, what drives people to do what they're doing.
You know, most of the time I'm talking to people in the in the depolarization space and the mindset space in, in how we how we do this. But, you know, this, this protesting thing, this is as old as democracy itself, the idea of protesting. You know, we had the civil rights movement. We had, women's suffrage, the labor movement, the protests of Vietnam.
I mean, we can name any different period in history where where protests played a, a big part of, these different civic actions, but is paid protesting something new. And what got you specifically into this thing, Adam? [00:06:16:22] Adam Swart: Okay. Well, that's a lot of questions.
And one so let me try to I should have taken notes on all that, but little information on crowds on demand. were, as you alluded to, we organize protests. We organized advocacy events, advocacy campaigns, PR stunts for companies, you know, stuff that has nothing to do with politics. A lot of what we do has absolutely nothing to do with politics.
It's either business disputes. You know, we've taken on anything from, you know, environmental issues, LGBT like anti-discrimination, you know, civil rights cases. I mean, I guess some of that is bordering on politics, you know, marketing for a company ventures, you know, all of those type of things. Right.
So I started this, as I said, almost 15 years ago. I started at because I saw there was a real need for manpower because as you mentioned Vietnam, you mentioned civil rights rate from that era where you had very little competition for attention. So you would it's so easy to get college students out there in the 60s, right? You just have a flier on the quad and people would turn out in droves.
Now this is much harder. The there's internet, there's a lot of other competing things. People have become a lot more apathetic. Also, I think people's participation on social media has given them the impression that that is participation.
So they don't need to go to rallies or protests because social media exists as that outlet. So as a result, there's I saw, you know, there's a huge need for that in person manpower. Now, one misnomer about our business is, oh, well, they're like, oh, well, you pay protesters, that must mean that you're doing the thing that's very unpopular, actually, quite the opposite. We're generally on the side of what I would call the silent majority, right, against a vocal minority, because the people who are just working jobs, they have kids, normal people, everyday people aren't out there saying, I'm going to go to every city council meeting to to protest, for I know, let's just insert things that people most people want is well-funded police, responsible police, clean streets, probably no drug addict junkies on the streets, right?
These are things that people support, but the people who support them are not out there every day, you know. [00:08:46:12] Wilk Wilkinson: That's right. [00:08:48:04] Adam Swart: So I think that the challenge is that our what we are there is to actually convey and act for that silent majority. Oftentimes, you know, and be that voice.
And sometimes those people need incentive. Why do they need incentive? Because if you are a college student or if you are a retiree, or you're just some wacky person on the street who has nothing better to do, no kids, no responsibilities, you can go attend as many protests, as many city council meetings, no opportunity cost. But if you have a job, an hourly job, and you have kids, the opportunity cost of going to a protest is basically unpaid time plus child care, right?
So how. Is that fair and. Kind of bridge the gap? So now I started the business hiring actors because, you know, I was in college in Los Angeles.
I still get bad press for that. I understand we still will hire actors for PR stunts, but we don't. I when I started the business, I don't really care if people supported the cost or not. I was just providing bodies.
Now we've become very focused on providing people who are enthusiastic. Why? Right. Number one, it's genuine.
It's an ethical perspective. Number two, it's more effective to have people who are genuinely and support. So I have a team who actually interviews each participant in each event before the event to make sure that they support the cause. And of course.
One other misnomer is that we have anything to do with any kind of like riots or whatever. Activity obviously we have. We're a business. We would have been shut down a long time ago if we did anything illegal.
We're peaceful, respectful, protesting. I always said, say, that doesn't mean that we're not boisterous, but boisterous within what's legally permitted. We would never block off a street without a permit. We would never.
We don't curse at people. Our focus is respectful First Amendment advocacy, you know, and we're so lucky to live in a country that gives us a huge rights to protest peacefully, lawfully. There's no reason to do things about real wrong way. [00:10:56:17] Wilk Wilkinson: Right?
And let me let me dive into a couple of those things real quick there, Adam, because this is where you're and I call them outrage entrepreneurs, grievance grifters. A lot of these people online will, they'll look at, at a, you know, one of these civic actions of, of of peaceful protest. And, and they'll look at the thing and they'll automatically dismiss, these massive crowds of, of millions. And I'm going to use I live in Minnesota.
I'm going to take the Operation ice out thing. Right. They had Operation Surge that was, that was performed by by Ice and Customs and Border Protection. And then and then there was this, this massive pushback by protesters in Minnesota.
Yes. To do this operation Ice out, I think that was the name of it. I'm not positive. And I don't know, you can tell me if you if you had anybody involved in that.
But but the bigger question that I have is when people automatically dismiss, you know, or one of, you know, let me let me step back a second because there's, there's a couple things that you talked about their Adam that I do want to get into, but I'm going to kind of go in a roundabout way of getting there. So I just want to qualify I want to talk deeper about the, you know, the younger generation thinking, you know, these kids making the mistake that social media is, is some kind of action. And the difference in that, I think that's a key point that I want to I want to key on in this conversation. But before we get there, I want to talk about, you know, what you were saying there about, you know, finding people that are, are passionate people that are boisterous, but people that are going to be respectful and things like that, because [00:12:46:05] Adam Swart: A lot of people think those are mutually exclusive.
You have immense, right. You can be boisterous, you can be extremely passionate, and actually you're going to be much more effective because what you don't want to do as a movement is do something that makes your whole movement look bad, right? [00:13:03:23] Wilk Wilkinson: Right. [00:13:04:08] Adam Swart: When you're boisterous, when you're loud but respectful, I always say you in every one of our events, who are we trying to convince?
We're trying to convince people, right. And you don't convince people by screaming at them, and you certainly don't convince people by blocking off a road and preventing people from getting to their jobs and their kids and and all of that. So we would never affiliate ourselves with that. Now.
I think. You're, you're you're you're kind of alluding to one other question, which is I think that our politics has gotten so juvenile that people on both that you've heard the term astroturf, right? AstroTurf. Right.
That is, that refers my definition of astroturf is movements that you disagree with. Right? So people who do not who want to dismiss a movement are like, oh, well, that movement, that's a billionaire movement. And our movement, it's all sincere when we know there are billionaires on both sides.
Right? [00:14:07:10] Wilk Wilkinson: Right. [00:14:07:19] Adam Swart: You're like, I'm sorry, this United States of America, we're run by billionaires. I know, like, I mean, Bernie Sanders is backed by billionaires.
I mean, the there's a billionaire running for governor in California whose principal thing is to take on the billionaires, but to supposedly take on the billionaires. He's spending hundreds of millions of his own money. So I'm like, billionaires run this country. So let's just like, first of all, like to spell the idea.
[00:14:32:02] Wilk Wilkinson: That as a baseline, right? [00:14:33:08] Adam Swart: Yeah. So let's just. Wish that as a baseline and not like get into this self masturbatory thing of thinking that like our movement is like the movement that I agree with is pure.
And the other side, oh they're, they're all backed by people. At the end of the day, both sides have money. Both sides have money to interest. Now, some billionaire backers or sincere in their support and some have alterior motives.
Right. And I would say a vast majority have all your motives. It's a combination of having ulterior motives. And I mean, think about the billionaires who backed BLM.
A lot of why they backed BLM was so that they themselves wouldn't be called out for their own racist actions. Right. That's why a lot of companies back to BLM right now, why do a lot of these companies back Trump. Right.
Because they don't want him to reprisal. Right. So these companies and billionaires are always trying to ride the wave of who's in charge and also trying to change things of who's in charge. So this is how it works.
So people who pretend like there's the difference between, oh, our movement is grassroots. It's like, have you looked at your donors? Like, believe me, like any movement that's been at all successful in, you know, gay rights, civil rights, MAGA, Tea Party, whatever has had a ton of very wealthy people behind it. And, you know, there we go.
So this idea of like, use using this idea of saying, oh, well, he pays crowds and he pays crowds like you all pay crowd, everybody pays people. You all have paid lawyers, you all have paid consultants. You all have paid. Like, let's let's focus more on is what you're saying, right.
So you mentioned Ice right now are let's focus on the issue of ice. I mean, and I love what you're doing, which is try to depolarize because a few things can be true one at one time. We have a lot of criminal, illegal people who are actually criminals. And I don't mean just having by virtue of crossing the border, but there are people who have committed crimes in.
The United States. And they need to be sent back, or in many cases, imprisoned in this country for the crimes that they committed. [00:16:41:22] Wilk Wilkinson: should not be a controversial issue, in my opinion. [00:16:44:20] Adam Swart: On that 100.
So my thing is like, let's find. That is common ground. I don't know anybody who disagrees that if you commit a crime in the United States, you should be in prison in the United States and then sent back to your home country if you are number one. Number two.
I think that people who are here lawfully should not be harassed by law enforcement. Right. [00:17:07:14] Wilk Wilkinson: And we agree on that. [00:17:08:19] Adam Swart: Like we should not have a four people coming out in balaclavas from a black van demanding to see your papers based on nothing more than the color of your skin.
Right. Like, can we all kind of agree that that's bad? [00:17:25:15] Wilk Wilkinson: I would hope that we could add them. Unfortunately, there's a lot of people that that have not been able to to to come to that point of common ground because we live in a time and this kind of goes back to what I was saying, you know, this, this time of outrage and, I call it fog, fear, outrage and grievance.
But the reality is, is us versus them. Tribalism has has created this, this incapacity for people to, to look at, at things objectively from, from trying to, from multiple angles and. [00:17:59:09] Adam Swart: On to our. Side versus your side.
Right. As an independent, I. Have no side. I'm not loyal to either of those parties, and they're both very corrupt.
And the reality is my take on it is that and you kind of mentioned, oh, are you a whistleblower in this? I mean, my take is, look, protest has the capacity to divide. Yes, it's true, but protest also has the capacity, especially our kind of work has the capacity to actually create movements to bring us together. And that's what I'm looking to do, is be part of things, of taking on the interest that we all are upset with.
Because if you actually talk in, as you have in your the course of your work, talk to people. Most people agree on basic tenets. Like I said, I think most people agree. If you commit a crime in the United States, you should be sent back, right?
And in prison, most people agree that you should not be harassed based on the color of your skin, and that there should be kind of due process for people who are detained in the United States. I was asked about by a right wing podcasters like, do illegal immigrants deserve due process? It's like, well, how do we know they are illegal unless they have due process? [00:19:16:04] Wilk Wilkinson: So great that it's a.
[00:19:17:11] Adam Swart: Prerequisite to. Have process. To to determine that they are in fact illegal, because. I.
Would not want to be harassed or you would not want to be harassed on some suspicion of, without any reasonable cause. So I think that the reality is, is that most of us agree. But I think what I'm trying to do is take on these sort of unite unifying campaigns. Right.
Interesting campaigns that are focused. On Who is who is dividing us. I mean, like, so one example of who's dividing us is big tech, right? Big tax algorithms purposefully are engineered to divide.
They want to take you down a rabbit hole. I'm sure you know people. I know people who've been taken down right wing, rabbit hole, left wing, rabbit hole and body dysmorphia. Rabbit hole, right like jealousy, rabbit hole, right, all kinds of rabbit hole.
Social media. Because then they own you, and then they sell you ads for every minute that you're there. So if if you just go on and message grandma and chat with them, chat with some friends, maybe have a like a sincere debate with someone on the other political side. But like respectful, right?
They they might feel like they're not making as much money off of you, right? I disagree, I think they can make money by keeping you happy, but they're they seem to think that they're going to make more money off keeping you miserable. And that's why they're doing it right. [00:20:48:06] Wilk Wilkinson: When I call it fog, Adam, I call it fear, like I said.
Well, I said it a few minutes ago, but fear, outrage and grievance is the model by which a lot of these platforms and a lot of people in media and politics keep us scared. They keep us mad, they keep us aggrieved. it's a real problem out there. Let's, let's, let's bring this back to the protest thing though, because this is this is where I, I'm interested in what you do specifically, Adam.
And this is, this is an important thing that I want the listeners to, to, to catch on to is, you know, this idea of protest, like I said in the very beginning of this conversation, this is as old as America. You know, this goes back before the founding of the United States of America. Protest is it has been a has been a thing from from the beginning. And my question for you, when we start thinking about, organized, well, in your case, the business of crowds on demand, things like that is, do you think Do you think society is starting to lose trust in the in the concept of protest in the concept?
Because we hear these things, right? You know. Well, we've heard it plenty of times is, oh, well, those are just paid protesters and don't these people have a job and blah, blah, blah. And you already talked about this a little bit, but talk a little bit more about the concept of trust in this concept or the idea of trust in the concept of protest itself, because I think if people lose trust in anything, it it ceases to be effective.
[00:22:27:03] Adam Swart: Well, I don't. Think it ceases to be effective, but I think that the dynamics of the protests has changed. So that is true. So for better or for worse, because by the way, protesting is not new.
I didn't invent the concept, I promise. I mean, don't give me more credit than I'm to. Write me. The idea of paid protesting, the idea of influence groups, and of key players trying to co-opt movements for their own benefit is also nothing new.
So I don't want to take more credit than I'm due on that part. What I will say is I think people and look, I almost do feel that I have did have a role in this is because of comedy, of like what we do people do regularly because I've been out in the media people or regularly throwing out the concept of paid protests as an insult I've went over earlier in the program. I think that's stupid, because both sides do it, and because the people who are being paid are actually, like more representative of anything of the people, of. Ordinary people.
Than than the others. But you're asking about trust. And what I think the new purpose of protest is, is more to get media attention from your side and social media attention from your side, rather than to be a broad, convincing force. So that is the difference.
So if you. Look at the civil rights movement and the march on the Edmund Pettus Bridge, for example, where peaceful protesters were confronted by the viciousness of the Jim Crow law enforcement, right. And everyone saw on the big three networks the ABC, CBS, NBC in live color, the brutality of the Jim Crow regime. Right.
And Mr. and Mrs. America, the ordinary people who might not be super one way or the other, not political, could see what the Jim Crow law enforcement was doing to the black people in this country and could see that that was a true injustice. And that.
Is what helped move the tide of the country towards civil rights is ordinary, nonpolitical people seeing that in live color and then saying, look, this is wrong. This is this is an abomination, right? That is harder to do today because media is siloed. Your media, whatever your side is, is going to cover your protests very favorably.
And that is then going to be amplified in your social media. So whether that's right wing, left wing, Maha progressive, you know, socialist, whatever that lane is that you occupy, your lane is going to amplify it, but people not in your lane are going to find the dumbest people in the crowd and ridicule them and make it look like all the people are dumb. They're going to make they're going to find the dumbest or most radical slogans, and they're going to cut it down there either. If they don't, they're either going to do that or they're going to ignore it entirely.
You know. [00:25:43:03] Wilk Wilkinson: They're going to make that that caricature. They're going to make that caricature the definition of the whole protest itself. Or action itself.
[00:25:53:06] Adam Swart: On the other hand. So all that is true, on the other hand, one beautiful thing protest can do, but it has to be relentless. It has to be regular is convince people IRL in real life. So your.
Capacity to convince people on social media or in the media who are not currently in your lane is limited. But if I am walking by a protest and I see a respectful, reasoned protest on a side that I disagree with, maybe I can be convinced. You see what I'm saying. Or certainly if.
I'm. On the fence. So there is a capacity. And in this world of AI and social media and everything is online, there is this value of being like, hey, we can reach you in person.
There's not much you can often do to reach people who are in a silo if you're on the other silo, but protest is actually one of those ways you can do it, but it. Is a. Little harder because you don't have the capacity that you did like in the civil rights movement. Like if you were to try to build the civil rights movement today, would it be as as easy to do?
Not easy, because it was obviously difficult. But what would it have been as easy to convey that point of the brutality of Jim Crow law enforcement as it as it was then? Not sure, because you could the in that case, you could have had people on YouTubers like and you see this all the time like Jordan. Clever.
The Daily Show will go to MAGA rallies and pick the dumbest people and make them look stupid. Plenty of right wing YouTubers, you know, Nick, Shirley or whoever. Like. To left wing events and try to.
I mean, Jesse Waters kind of got his start doing that. [00:27:38:21] Wilk Wilkinson: Got it. Yeah. Doing the.
Yep, yep. When he was, when he was with Bill O'Reilly. Yeah. So that man on the street just outraged.
[00:27:46:06] Adam Swart: There's a big industry. Of doing that. So Jesse Waters was kind of early in that field. But now there's plenty of YouTubers.
He'll do this on both sides. And my point is that it's really hard. It's harder to break through that now. So that's how it's really changed.
And I think that but I think that saying, oh, paid protests, it's kind of a cop out because like what? Like it's just so funny because like Joe Rogan like, critiques my business all the time. And it's like, dude, you're criticizing somebody for getting 100, $200 for, hey, for protesting when you're getting $100 million. And we're supposed to expect that Joe Rogan is genuine when and he's criticizing, he's saying that 100 or $200 will lead people to sell out when he's claiming he's genuine at 100 million.
So that. It's kind of a classist argument. [00:28:36:23] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. And I don't you know, I try not to ascribe motives to anybody, but I think, I mean, I think your point is well taken and it's important to, to to say that.
And here's the thing about this, Adam, is, is I think people need to to be able to draw that distinction between what is a paid protester and what is a paid agitator, because I think they are. [00:28:59:03] Adam Swart: Very, very different things. Well. First of all, though, Wilk, if you are agitating and by agitating, just I want to be clear with our definitions, is doing something unlawful in theoretical furtherance of a cause.
Right. So yeah. I say theoretical because I don't think it's I don't think it serves the cause. But if you're lying in a road, if you're throwing a brick, whatever, you're an agitator.
If you're looting, you're an agitator. Right? So if you're an agitator. I don't care if you're pater not paid.
I want you punish. I guess the problem that that is inherent if you're a paid agitator is who is paying you, and you've got to go to change. I mean, I've offered to the government my help, and they haven't accepted it in fighting the paid agitators, because I don't want that because it like, people falsely ascribe that to me, like completely falsely. So I want to crack down what they're not doing is going up the chain.
And it's a big mistake because what you need to say is, okay, someone got paid $1,000, $2,000 to do something legal. Okay, well, who paid you? Well, who paid them? Who paid them?
Go up the chain and find out. So that's the more concerning part about these paid agitators is who is paying them? And is there are there is there an industry of because they don't have a corporate website, you know, they don't have an LLC, you know. [00:30:19:02] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah.
[00:30:19:17] Adam Swart: So so you're going to have to actually do old fashioned police work to actually get at who was the root source of that. [00:30:27:01] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. You're not going to get you're not going to get some philanthropist out there that that is got an open ad out there on Facebook Marketplace for. Yeah.
Come break the law for me, right? [00:30:37:18] Adam Swart: No, I mean, you see. Those ads, those are all just fake done for media clicks. [00:30:42:06] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, yeah.
No, it's I was making a joke, but it's it's yeah, it's it's and like I said, there's a distinction made and I think you've made a bunch of incredible points here, Adam. And this is, this is something, you know, far more than we can get into in a, in a half hour conversation. But I the reason that I wanted you to come on is because, like I said, there's just far too many people out there that will that will dismiss. This is the this is the reason that I brought up the trust thing and people's willingness to to to think beyond just the headlines and think beyond the rage bait right into what what this this crowds on demand thing is what paid protesting actually is as to as opposed to what it's betrayed as.
Because, again, just like so many things that that we talk about, you know, I talk about here on the podcast, what we talk about in, in the depolarization space in general is there's far more nuanced than you're going to find in just your general outrage headlines and things like that. And, and what you're doing here, I think, is important, you know, and and I love drawing that distinction between what a difference what the difference is between a paid protester and a paid agitator and how we actually get our messages across. Because as I've talked about plenty of times, what is our desired outcome? Because if you're out there and you're throwing rocks and bottles and and things like that, you're not going to win.
Adam, tell, tell the Derate the hate listeners where they can find more about you. I know Crowds on Demand is your is your organization where they can find out more about you and see more of the kind of the work that you're doing so that they can find out for themselves and clear up a lot of the misconceptions. [00:32:29:22] Adam Swart: Crowds On demand. Com that's crowds on demand.
Com. Yeah. Feel free. We're always interested in bringing in more people and also taking on like interesting campaigns ideally something that's kind of nuanced and that's like that's got that that requires, I like to say, when the legal system is too slow, when the government system is rigged against you, protest is the avenue that you have as American, to fight for your rights.
You know, within the within the confines of the law. So you use your right. [00:33:06:20] Wilk Wilkinson: Very good. Yes, people need to use their rights.
And again, protest is as old as the country itself and, and and even older. So I appreciate your time today, Adam. It's been it's been great getting to know a little bit about you and we will talk again. Thank you so much.
[00:33:21:18] Adam Swart: Thank you sir. [00:33:23:21] Wilk Wilkinson: Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate The Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week.
We really are better together. So please take a moment to visit Braver Angels and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divide. This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another.
Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friend. I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week.
Take care.
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