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Larry Rosen built a career as a mediator, working through disputes between people who already knew each other and had a reason to want to get along — business partners, divorcing couples, families untangling an inheritance. He started wondering whether that same process could work between total strangers who disagreed about nothing more personal than politics. He didn’t know if the motivation would even be there. He built the Enemies Project to test it, with one structural addition borrowed from television rather than mediation: let people argue first, then guide them toward seeing each other as human beings before ever touching the actual dispute.
His daughter Sadie came on originally to help launch the project on social media. She ended up embedded in nearly every part of it — recruiting and screening guests, producing episodes, and, this past summer alone, having conversations with roughly a hundred people trying to find the right voices for the show.
● Stoke the flames, then build the bridge. Larry’s early instinct in mediation was to defuse conflict immediately. For the show, he learned to do the opposite — let people argue first — and found that the more heat there was at the start, the deeper and more surprising the resolution turned out to be.
● The bridging space may be aiming at the wrong audience. Larry argues that people already interested in “depolarization” and “cross-partisan dialogue” are a narrow, self-selecting group. The much larger audience is people who’ve simply tuned politics out because it’s exhausting — people who just want their own relationships to work better.
● Numbers versus individual impact. Larry and Sadie both describe the strange experience of watching follower counts climb into the hundreds of thousands while the moments that actually stick with them are single messages — a viewer who says a conversation with an estranged parent finally happened again.
● Two skills a mediator needs. Larry breaks down the two core abilities he believes this work requires: deep empathy, and the more analytical skill of mapping a conversation’s structure in real time. Few people, he says, naturally have both.
● Built at the family dinner table. Sadie traces her own instinct for seeing things from someone else’s perspective back to childhood car rides, where her dad’s oft-repeated advice eventually became a running family joke — “no dad lessons today” — that, as she got older, turned out to have worked anyway.
● Structured conversation can transform a relationship even between two people who’ve never met and have no built-in reason to want to get along.
● The Enemies Project has grown into one of the most-watched shows in the bridge-building space — closing in on 200,000 Instagram followers and nearly 100,000 on YouTube — but Larry and Sadie both point to individual stories, not the numbers, as what actually keeps them doing the work.
● Learn more, watch episodes, or connect with the Enemies Project at enemiesproject.org.
Larry Rosen
Larry Rosen is the founder of the Enemies Project and of the mediation law practice Through Understanding, where he has spent decades helping people find their way through high-conflict disputes. His TEDx talk, “The Secret to Understanding Humans,” has been widely viewed and informs the approach behind the Enemies Project. In 2024 he completed a novel, The Enemy Dance, exploring whether a society split by tribalism can heal itself.
Website: https://www.enemiesproject.org
Sadie Rosen
Sadie Rosen is Head of Operations and Producer at the Enemies Project, and a senior at Washington University in St. Louis. She leads guest recruitment, production logistics, and strategic partnerships, overseeing the project from outreach through final edit.
Website: https://www.enemiesproject.org
The Enemies Project — Social
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[00:00:00:00] Wilk Wilkinson: Larry Rosen used to sit in private mediation sessions and think, I wish somebody else could see this. Today, millions of people can. He and his daughter Sadie, built a show that takes people who see each other as enemies, puts them in a room together, and does the slow work of getting them back to being human with each other. It's called the Enemies Project, and their story is one that you don't want to miss. Stick with me. Welcome back, my friend, to the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross partisan organization working toward civic renewal, this podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ. Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can derate the hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast, share it with a friend and visit Braver Angels to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partisan divide. Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it. Larry Rosen spent decades as a mediator helping people who actually knew each other business partners divorcing, couples, families, untangling and inheritance find their way back to understanding. Somewhere along the way, he started wondering if that same skill set could work on people who'd never met, who disagreed on politics instead of money. He didn't know if it would translate, but he tried it anyway. That experiment became The Enemies Project, a show that puts people from opposite sides of a divide in a room together. Well, it's the more you it out and then does the slow work of getting them to see each other as human beings. It's grown into one of the most watched projects in the entire bridge building space, closing in on 200,000 followers on Instagram and nearly 100,000 on YouTube, with millions of views along the way. His daughter Sadie runs point on production and guest recruiting. This past summer alone, she says she talked to somewhere around 100 people trying to find the right voices for the show. She grew up watching her dad do this work, and now she's by his side doing it with him. I've gotten to know this incredible father daughter duo personally over the past several months. In fact, I even did the enemies project myself with Minnesota State Representative Walter Hudson. So this conversation is another one that hits close to home for me. Let's get into it with my friends, Larry and Sadie Rosen. Here we go. Larry and Sadie Rosen. Welcome to the Derate The Hate podcast. It is so great to see both of you again today.
[00:03:49:20] Sadie Rosen: Great to be here.
[00:03:51:08] Larry Rosen: Thanks. Wilk.
[00:03:53:06] Wilk Wilkinson: I am I'm so excited about this conversation. I've had the opportunity to spend time with both of you. I actually had an opportunity few months back to do to do the Enemies Project myself with a Minnesota state rep, Walter Hudson. And now I get to have you both on the Derate the Hate podcast. So this is an incredible honor. I am I'm so happy to have both of you here today and bring, I think, all the Derate the Hate listeners already know about the Enemies Project, but now I want to bring to the Derate the Hate listeners, the people behind the Enemies Project. So, Larry, Sadie, this is an incredible honor. And first, I just want everybody to know you guys are a father daughter duo in this project, in this program. And I want to know how that started. So, Sadie, I want to start with you first and tell me what about what about the bridging space appealed to you? That said, I, you know, I'm going to go to work with my dad on this on this ambitious Enemies Project.
[00:05:05:19] Sadie Rosen: Well, long before my dad was interested in creating this thing that we call the Enemies Project. Today, I've been really interested in understanding people that are different than me, and I think this started maybe an elementary school when I was surrounded by a very liberal community. But I also have a lot of very conservative family in Ohio, and we would go there for our holidays. And I have some of the best memories there. And I remember it was confusing growing up because people in school would be saying stuff about conservatives that I knew not to be true, because I spent time with them, and I loved them and I cared for them. And that always caused this confusion in my mind that I, that I wanted to bridge. And I didn't even know what bridging was. And fast forward all these years later, I'm still interested in this. And my dad told me that he was going to start this thing called the Enemies Project, and that he was going to release it on social media. And I said, dad, I want to help you. I think I might have some knowledge about social media that I love to implement, and from there it kind of just skyrocketed. And I've just become so interested in every aspect of the project.
[00:06:21:16] Wilk Wilkinson: That is fantastic. That's fantastic. And Larry, Just knowing a little bit about your story, Larry, you've been a kind of this world renowned peacemaker for, for quite some time. you come at it from a legal mediation background, but, but you've, you've, you've made the rounds through Ted speeches and things like that that have, have put you on the worldwide stage in terms of peacemaking. What about your background? What what made you decide you wanted to do, venture into the world of social media and public bridge building? tell me about your tell me about your interest in making this Enemies Project happen.
[00:07:09:08] Larry Rosen: So my interest comes from my kids, all kids not wanting to see them suffer in the world. And we're creating a world where they may suffer unless we figure out how to work with each other. So that's that's I mean, we all know that, that, that, that, that capacity of human beings and human society has, has collapsed or is collapsing. And that was an acceptable for me. I was really upset about it, depressed about it for a bit for a while and So I really wanted to change that. And I didn't know how. And I felt powerless like a lot of people. And I started to write about it, and people weren't really reading the writing, you know, it was. It was like nonfiction writing. And. And I recognized that the vehicle needs to be through entertainment in some way. Sure. People are not interested in education. And so I had a thought and I shared it with some people about the Enemies Project, and they were like, go do that, go do that thing. I want to see that. And and so I did, and I didn't know what I was doing, but I knew I had some skill because I had been a mediator for a long time. And I've also really enjoy storytelling and narrative. And I thought, I can do this. I mean, why not? And it's been doable.
[00:08:39:01] Wilk Wilkinson: It has been doable. You guys have had incredible success. I mean, success, unlike almost anybody else that I've ever heard of in the bridge building space, which is which has been amazing. One of the big three lines in your story, Larry, to my own story, that that I think was a was a great connection piece for you and I right in the beginning when when you and I started talking months and months and months ago, was was that idea of our kids and why we do this? I always tell my kids, I'm just trying to fix a world that I didn't break, but.
[00:09:15:19] Larry Rosen: I like that.
[00:09:16:12] Wilk Wilkinson: That immediately drew me to you. And your story was, was was when you said it was because of your kids that you were doing this. And and then obviously, I had the opportunity to meet Sadie and the, the bond that you guys have developed doing this was was amazing. And the fact that that you already had this, this background in mediation and and, and peacemaking, talk to me about you said you you brought that talent to the bridge building space. Talk to me about what you were doing in, in, in the legal profession. I mean, I know that you had a, had a history at conflict mediation. What what about that particular thing? what made you know that that talent was going to translate into these cultural issues, these this enemy culture that we're seeing today and how how what was your plan for using that skill set?
[00:10:20:01] Larry Rosen: So I didn't know I in my mediations. I would sometimes be sitting there with me and a couple of people who I was mediating between and saying, wow, this is amazing. Like I wish somebody else could see this. This is so transformative. I didn't and I do mediations between people who know each other, who have a legal problem. So the founders of a company, people who are inheriting money, people who are divorcing where they wouldn't have a legal problem if they were getting along. And so my job is to help them understand each other, to help them get along. And I saw the same problems in the political world that people really weren't understanding each other. I did not know whether it would translate. And the reason was that people with a personal dispute actually know each other and want to resolve the personal relationship, or often want to, so they don't have pain in their life. Why would people who don't know each other with political disputes want to do that? I didn't know if they had the motivation, and I didn't know if my ability to bring them to understanding would be transformative for them. So it was a speculation, but I thought it probably would. And so I built a slightly different structure, which was I would help them understand each other as human beings. Before we went into the conflict resolution for the show. Sure, we'd really, like, dispense with politics and bring them to understand each other as human beings. That's the additional piece I built in, and that worked really well. Like they got to know each other and things started to melt. The other piece that I had to bring in in order to make it entertaining, because in mediation the goal was not to be entertaining. Right. But but you want somebody to watch your show. It has to be is that I had them argue to start like mediation. You don't necessarily want them to argue to start. You're like trying to build peace immediately. But I.
[00:12:20:21] Wilk Wilkinson: Was already there. You're just trying to put it out.
[00:12:23:15] Larry Rosen: Yeah, yeah. But here I was like, I got to stoke the flames a little bit in order to have it have some kind of narrative arc. What I didn't realize, and what became clear to me after a while, is that the more I stoke the flames, the more powerful the resolution. People who were less protected, you know, who were angry, were were more vulnerable, actually, and their transformation was deeper for them and more surprising. And so it served, you know. So I had it I had to tweak it somewhat to make it a show, but it translated pretty well.
[00:12:58:17] Wilk Wilkinson: It is very much Translated very well. See, talk to me a little bit about, growing up and, and listening to your dad talk about, you know, his mediation work and, and then, you know, just knowing what he'd been doing for a living and knowing about his background in the law, background in mediation and conflict resolution, when he came to you with this idea about the The Enemies Project, what was your what was your initial thought? And kind of take me back to that. You know what it was like growing up watching him do this. And how did you see it translating, moving into the the pre works of of what has become the Enemies Project.
[00:13:43:13] Sadie Rosen: So I've always thought my dad was unique. He's definitely a unique guy. But I don't think I ever, you know growing up that he was my dad I don't think I saw him as special. Sorry, dad, you are special.
[00:13:59:18] Larry Rosen: But I was I mean, I came to them with so many ideas. You know, you may know Ralph Kramden from The Honeymooners like, he always has a get rich quick scheme or something from my. My family was so sick of my ideas. It's just like, okay, go do your thing.
[00:14:16:20] Sadie Rosen: But but I think that especially when I came to college and I, you know, became aware of the way that so many other people were raised, I realized, wow, I, I was raised by a, by a pretty good one. And, and I think that, you know, I growing up, like trying to have a nuanced perspective is, is maybe too much the sitting in the back of of the car gossiping and then your dad's trying to tell you, just think about it from their perspective. And you know, you're like, dad, I don't I'm not trying to do that right now. I'm ten years old. But but, you know, I think that, you know, throughout time, those those messages resonate. And now I'm probably that friend that's telling my other friends, try to look at it from that other perspective. And so that's just kind of built into me throughout growing up without even knowing it. And in addition to my deep interest in politics and and bridge building, I was like, this seems great. And originally I didn't even think that I would be really involved. I said, Maybe I'll help with social media, get it launched, and then that's your thing. But as soon as I got into this world, I just became so excited and like, addicted to it, talking to all these people who have this common goal, who are so different but have this common goal. It's just so inspiring. And I just couldn't help.
[00:15:46:09] Larry Rosen: And you've loved speaking. From what I've heard from Sadie, she's loved interviewing people like she interviews people who might be on the show for casting purposes. And she does an initial screening. So she speaks with all these fairly extreme people. Sure. Which you wouldn't have exposure to otherwise.
[00:16:07:19] Sadie Rosen: I've spoken to maybe 100 people this summer.
[00:16:12:10] Wilk Wilkinson: Oh, wow.
[00:16:12:22] Sadie Rosen: All different stories. Not one was, you know what I expected? And every single one of them, I. I think that I'll carry with me because I, I see all these people as beautiful, no matter how different their perspectives are to me. They're all so passionate, and I can respect that for sure.
[00:16:36:17] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. That's one of the things that that struck me so much about the way that you guys do this thing. I mean, when you initially approached Braver Angels about, you know, finding people that might be interested in doing this project. And we started having conversations and, and that's obviously the time that I, you know, first met both of you and, and just the thoughtfulness and the depth with which you guys are kind of digging into your potential guests or even potential collaborators was, was, I think, absolutely incredible. I mean, I've, I've obviously done hundreds of interviews now and had conversations with hundreds and, I don't know, maybe a thousand people throughout my work in the in the bridge building space. But but that kind of depth and the follow up questions that you guys use and, and just all the different things that you, you know, ways that you, you dig into the like I said, the backstory, the understory, the through lines, all of the different things that and tools that you guys use. I imagine that that a lot of that stems, Larry, from your, your years as a, as a mediator because to to be a proper and successful mediator, you have to really understand the sides and understand not just the sides of the issue, but the people that hold, the values that they hold, what they hold dear to them and, and things like that. Talk a little bit about that more for me.
[00:18:22:05] Larry Rosen: Yeah. I think that I think a mediator has to have two fundamental skills which are not always found in the same person. One is you have to be pretty empathetic so that you understand the people at a depth yourself. And the other is you have to be modeling things like making a map of what's happening, which is a really intellectual kind of cognitive skill. And so you have to have both sides of these in order to be a mediator, I believe, to be figuring out how am I going to get the other person to understand this? What is this interaction really mean? What is the through line? What's my plan? All of that requires different skill than I'm just going to feel what you feel and explain it to the other person. And so I'm doing both of those at the same time. And I didn't even really realize it was a skill until I was doing the show and explaining it to people and people. Some people could do one part, but not the other. And so it became clear that I had both parts of that. And I think when I look at other mediators who are who I believe are pretty good mediators, they have those two sides living inside of themselves. And we don't know that until it's tested. Right? Right, right. Some people are just really feeling people. Some people are really cognitive people. So I have a bit of both. And the other thing that I think is really important, at least for the show, is that a storytelling ability, like I am thinking about the story and I am planning that before people come in, what do I think is going to be the through line here? What am I going to want to highlight? I'm very often wrong about it. Like I planned it out and then it goes somewhere else. Sure. But that I was planning it out had me really thinking about how to dramatically build it up, and to be looking in the moment for what might crescendo. So I think that it's just a variety of things that I didn't really know I held until I started this project.
[00:20:22:06] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. And you make such a great point there. I mean, just from the conversations that I do and, and and like I said, I, I don't my, my shows are shorter than yours and not nearly as in-depth and don't have the kind of art that your show typically does. But I found that if I try to do a lot of prep work and try to plan where the thing is going to go, it ends up sounding very rehearsed and it doesn't go where I want it to go anyway. And then it's kind of like that old and I brought it up on the show before, but it's like that old Mike Tyson phrase, right? Everybody's got a plan until you get punched in the face. It's one of those things like, people are so different, and especially when you're bringing together people who are very different personalities, they hold different values. They see the world in a completely different way. You never can really tell how how that thing is going to go until it's actually happening. And then that's where that special skill set comes in, Larry, where where you are able to adjust on the fly based on the information that's coming in in real time and how that thing is, is happening.
[00:21:32:06] Larry Rosen: Yeah. And that's a personality thing. Also, you know, like some people have more controlling personalities. I would say I do. Right. Like I'm not uncomfortable redirecting people. I'll ask for their permission to do so beforehand. But my edge in life has always been being less of that. Right. Like and so that's been my learning edge personally. So that aspect which, which is necessary to kind of to be to be flexible but also redirecting to stop people, to have them really think about what they're saying takes a certain, I think, personality type. So again, you know, a people can develop all of these skills, but, you know, some people just have personalities that are well suited for different tasks. Yeah, yeah.
[00:22:27:15] Wilk Wilkinson: And Sadie, talk to me about some of the things that you've learned from watching your dad do these do these interviews. I mean, you, you yourself now are doing a lot of the prescreening. You're having a lot of these conversations now. Do you find it different now having those conversations than when you started? Or did you already pick up a lot of that from your dad growing up? And and you've you've brought it in. How has that been been playing out for you? Working on the Enemies Project?
[00:23:00:08] Sadie Rosen: I mean, I think that throughout this past over a year now of interviewing people, I've come to talk less about politics and more about their care and their pain, which is, in my opinion, slightly more interesting and, you know, really connects me to this person. And that's before I started doing the interviews. I used to listen to my dad doing them and just like sit in on the other side of the camera just listening in. And that's something that I, that I always found really interesting is, you know, we listen, the policy parts are important. But more than that, it's the why, why you keep asking why until you get to the deepest part of their belief. And that's when you can truly understand them and respect them and see where they're coming from. And that is I've definitely improved at getting to that deepest part. Why do they really care? Who are they doing it for? And I think that yeah, it's it's a, it's a pattern that, that I've come to understand pretty well.
[00:24:11:06] Larry Rosen: Yeah. And you were just speaking about it the other day that you said, I really feel like I've improved in my ability to dig into people. And that was exciting for you.
[00:24:19:05] Sadie Rosen: Yeah. For sure.
[00:24:21:13] Wilk Wilkinson: it is an exciting thing. I mean, when I personally, you know, started doing interviews for the podcast, I had interviewed people for jobs before, you know, as a manager in, in the trucking industry and things like that. I had never interviewed a person to learn about the person. You know, I had no idea. And, and I did not have a mentor like, like you do to Sadie in your in your dad Larry and how to do this. And that's why it's, it's wonderful for me to to think about the relationship that you guys have built and, and continue to build doing this thing. You know, it was funny, a few minutes ago we were talking about the way that you interact and the things that your dad would say to you when you're in the back seat of the car with the siblings and stuff like that. My daughter had just brought me back in my mind. My daughter, she's six and she's got the, you know, sass of a 16 year old, but, you know, some sometimes she looked at me and said, like, daddy, I don't have any idea what you're talking about, using words. I don't know. And I'm not sure what you're trying to say. And it's my gosh, it's it's funny, but to think about it, I mean, especially like, you know, when, when your dad's job and this in this case or in your case, you, you know, Larry's this, this mediator, peace builder, this, this kind of academic in a world where he brings people together and he's trying to talk to a ten year old little girl about, you know, the, the, the workings of.
[00:26:00:11] Larry Rosen: It didn't work so well. My kids, I have two daughters three years apart. Sadie's the older one. And one thing they agree on, they came up with this and they both liked to say, no dad lessons today, right? Like, okay dad. No. No dad lessons. Okay.
[00:26:19:00] Sadie Rosen: You're very philosophical, which is a wonderful thing, but a lot. Of things, just random things in life turn into a life lesson. And sometimes I end up rolling my eyes when it's every day.
[00:26:31:04] Larry Rosen: If it's particularly when they were young and when they would be in the back seat, you know, I'd hear, you know, one kid talking about another kid and I'd be trying to hold it, you know, like, but in my mind, it's like, I want you to treat that kid well. And I'd eventually, like, sometimes turn around and say, have you? And and my wife was always better at just listening, you know, like listening to it, but I couldn't I could not hold it after a while. Oh.
[00:26:57:17] Wilk Wilkinson: And that's why, like, if my daughter is on the phone with one of her little school friends or whatever, I've just got to go in the other room. Because when they when I hear them interacting, my first instinct is to jump in there and say, no, you can't say this.
[00:27:10:22] Larry Rosen: Are you?
[00:27:11:16] Wilk Wilkinson: Stop! Oh my gosh, that's hilarious. So okay, so, so the the success that you guys have had with the The Enemies Project is, is pretty much unmatched by any, any kind of programing in the, in the bridge building space. One of the biggest challenges we face in the bridge building space. And this, you know what we call it braver angels, courageous citizenship space. How do we work together across differences? Your guys's success in terms of the number of views the number of followers is, is really unmatched. It's incredible, I think, coming up on 200,000 followers, on Instagram, on nearly 100,000 followers, on YouTube, millions and millions of views. When you guys realized or came to the realization that that this thing was really happening, I mean, these numbers were were coming and they were coming big, what was what was that feeling like? And I'll start with you, Larry. But what was that when you saw that this thing was taken off? What did you think?
[00:28:23:13] Larry Rosen: Well, I was hopeful, you know, because the goal is to have an impact on the world. So it felt great, but I had no basis for comparison. Right? Like, as you see that people have five, 10 million followers. So it's like, you know, if I had if I was 50,000 100,000 followers, it didn't mean that much to me. Like I just didn't have a basis for comparison. I didn't think that was a lot. The other thing I'll say is that that which is weird and and you may understand this, Wilk, people who are in like public businesses may understand this. We get a lot of really impassioned comments from people who really appreciate it. And that was both, you know, very encouraging. But also it's weird because I don't know those people and it's hard to let in, you know. And so there's this weird dichotomy in me and that, oh, it feels good. And yet I want to be like present to these people, but I can't actually always feel what they're expressing as gratitude. So it's a it's kind of an interesting discovery in myself. Yeah.
[00:29:31:08] Wilk Wilkinson: And Sadie, same thing for you. What when you initially saw that this thing was taken off the way that it was, you guys were putting up the kind of numbers that you were. What was that feeling like for you?
[00:29:45:13] Sadie Rosen: I think personally, you know, as someone who's been on social media for a long time now, at the very beginning, it was really exciting just to see those numbers go up. You just scroll and there's more. And I think, you know, after a little bit that that feeling kind of wears off. And I'm looking at these huge numbers and I'm kind of it's almost incomprehensible. I remember like searching up a picture of how, how many people is a million people in one space to try to visualize it. And I think more than that, what really makes me feel like so warm inside is knowing the actual people that I've impacted. Last night I was on on the phone with my best friend and I was, I think it was like 11 p.m. I was editing a real like just mundane li and she, she said, you know how cool it is that you're actually impacting real people. Do you think about how many real families that you guys have actually touched? And you maybe you don't know it, but but they're out there and they're thankful and and you know, I was just sitting at my computer on iMovie editing this thing, and I, I just stopped for a second, and, and I, and I felt really, really whole and I tried I tried to remember that as much as I can. It's a really beautiful feeling.
[00:31:05:18] Larry Rosen: Yeah, yeah.
[00:31:07:17] Wilk Wilkinson: And that's that kind of I mean, what I hear you expressing there is, is it kind of gratitude combined with humility in that, that, you know, it's it's not about the numbers that you're putting up, but the impact and the individual impacts that it makes. And, and knowing both of you, you know, for as much as I know both of you now, I know that it's it's not about the numbers, it's about the actual impact that it's making. And I think that's awesome. And and that's what I love to hear about people in this space that are doing this kind of thing. I mean, that's for me, it's the same thing. I don't, you know, I don't pretend to have the kind of. I guess, volume of followers that, that you guys have. But every time I get that one email and, and Larry, kind of going to your point, there's no way we can, you know, take in and really feel everything that comes in, especially when you're in this space, especially when it's one of these emotionally driven spaces and it hits people deep. You know, it's hard to take in all of it, but every now and then you'll get that one email or that one message that it just hits you right in the I mean, it hits you deep, you know, heart almost skips a beat. You get goosebumps because you know that, you know, that something you said or did had an impact and really changed people's lives.
[00:32:44:01] Larry Rosen: Yeah, it's interesting because you do this thing to have a large scale impact on the world, but the meaningful things are when there's an individual who expresses it in a way that touches you, the numbers become kind of meaningless. Right? And and then somebody sends you a letter that says, I spoke to my dad, I hadn't spoken to him. And it made a huge difference in my life. And that feels so meaningful. Yeah.
[00:33:09:01] Wilk Wilkinson: No, it absolutely does. You're absolutely right. And it's it's such a beautiful thing. And, you know, and then then as we round out our time here and we knew it was going to go fast, but but the one question that I'm constantly thinking about is, is that, we in this, in this space to have that deep impact, that deep cultural impact, that societal impact that we want to have. I mean, it's great to hit the individuals and especially the ones that need it the most. But in order to hit as many people as possible, we have to get our messaging outside of the bridging space. I think you guys have done a masterful job at doing that. I think a lot of organizations, myself included, struggle with getting our message outside of the bridging space. talk about that. What what do you think the key in getting this message beyond the walls of this bridging silo are
[00:34:07:20] Larry Rosen: So I think that the bridging space is unfortunately misunderstood and maybe misunderstands itself a little bit. The people who are interested aren't people who are politicos. They like going after politicos, people who are interested in depolarization, who are interested in cross partisan conversation, who are even interested in citizenship, is a very narrow population, and they are the choir. I think that that the larger population who's interested in this space but doesn't know it, are people who are interested in relational healing, people who want to have healthy relationships in their lives. And they've tuned politics out because it's so unhealthy. These are the people who are really inspired by what we're doing and who are potentially activated as Bridgers, but they don't know it. They're not waking up thinking about politics. They're thinking politics sucks. They're waking up thinking, it sucks that I can't speak to my parents. There are thinking I want my relationships to have more love in them. And those people really want a society that reflects that. So I think it's a different target than the bridging space presently thinks of itself as having.
[00:35:23:10] Wilk Wilkinson: That's that's right. So so smart. Yeah for sure. And Sadie, what are your thoughts?
[00:35:28:15] Sadie Rosen: I think. That. Bridging in general is kind of this intangible term. If I'm going to explain bridging to my friend, it's you know, it's different than explaining if I was, you know, a Democrat and I want to vote for these policies and get this person in office. And and bridging itself is less of a tangible thing. And we've kind of added a tangible aspect, which is these personal stories, as we were just talking about, it's really hard to comprehend all these, all these numbers and, and, you know, just this data of all these people out there. But when we look at one individual story, that's when we can become really impacted. And these stories are so incredibly powerful and we just know it in our, in our brains, that's that's what we're interested in. We can hear, you know, this thing happened to this many people, but how much can you really care without understanding who those people are and why it impacted them? I think that we've added that this really. Yeah, just this tangible aspect to it that that that really puts it in people's minds and gives people hope.
[00:36:42:08] Wilk Wilkinson: It's smart. Thank you. That's beautiful. Yeah, yeah. Giving people hope, giving them something to hold on to, giving them a story that they can see themselves in. These are all hugely important points and I think you guys do it as well, if not better than.
[00:37:00:02] Larry Rosen: Before people.
[00:37:01:03] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah.
[00:37:01:22] Larry Rosen: Before we go, I want to say something to your audience. They probably don't know how people perceive Wilk in the real world. We went to the Braver Angels Conference, Sadie and I, and I would say that Wilk is is the most liked player in in the bridging world. Like every he's hugging everybody. He's always got a smile. He's like moving boxes around. He's doing interviews like everybody counts on him for everything.
[00:37:32:12] Sadie Rosen: The bridging mascot. During the.
[00:37:35:08] Larry Rosen: So so like just listen to that laugh. So just to know Wilk at a different level. He's he's he's a lovable figure.
[00:37:43:13] Sadie Rosen: He really is.
[00:37:44:18] Wilk Wilkinson: Oh my God. My whole face is all hot red. Well, you guys are too kind. And and I appreciate you both so much. I obviously I encourage everybody to check out Enemies Project. Your guys's work is amazing. I love I love being part of it. And I love the fact that we've we've get to do this stuff together. So Larry Rosen, Sadie Rosen, thank you so much for for all you're doing for the world in which we live. It's it's incredible. And and I'm honored to have you in my circle for sure.
[00:38:20:22] Sadie Rosen: Thanks for having us. Wilk.
[00:38:22:16] Larry Rosen: Thank you. Wilk.
[00:38:24:08] Wilk Wilkinson: Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate The Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together. So please take a moment to visit Braver Angels and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divide. This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friend. I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
Transcript is AI Generated and May Contain Errors [00:00:00:00] Wilk Wilkinson: Larry Rosen used to sit in private mediation sessions and think, I wish somebody else could see this. Today, millions of people can. He and his daughter Sadie, built a show that takes people who see each other as enemies, puts them in a room together, and does the slow work of getting them back to being human with each other. It's called the Enemies Project, and their story is one that you don't want to miss.
Stick with me. Welcome back, my friend, to the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross partisan organization working toward civic renewal, this podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree.
Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ. Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can derate the hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast, share it with a friend and visit Braver Angels to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partisan divide.
Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it. Larry Rosen spent decades as a mediator helping people who actually knew each other business partners divorcing, couples, families, untangling and inheritance find their way back to understanding. Somewhere along the way, he started wondering if that same skill set could work on people who'd never met, who disagreed on politics instead of money.
He didn't know if it would translate, but he tried it anyway. That experiment became The Enemies Project, a show that puts people from opposite sides of a divide in a room together. Well, it's the more you it out and then does the slow work of getting them to see each other as human beings. It's grown into one of the most watched projects in the entire bridge building space, closing in on 200,000 followers on Instagram and nearly 100,000 on YouTube, with millions of views along the way.
His daughter Sadie runs point on production and guest recruiting. This past summer alone, she says she talked to somewhere around 100 people trying to find the right voices for the show. She grew up watching her dad do this work, and now she's by his side doing it with him. I've gotten to know this incredible father daughter duo personally over the past several months.
In fact, I even did the enemies project myself with Minnesota State Representative Walter Hudson. So this conversation is another one that hits close to home for me. Let's get into it with my friends, Larry and Sadie Rosen. Here we go.
Larry and Sadie Rosen. Welcome to the Derate The Hate podcast. It is so great to see both of you again today. [00:03:49:20] Sadie Rosen: Great to be here.
[00:03:51:08] Larry Rosen: Thanks. Wilk. [00:03:53:06] Wilk Wilkinson: I am I'm so excited about this conversation. I've had the opportunity to spend time with both of you.
I actually had an opportunity few months back to do to do the Enemies Project myself with a Minnesota state rep, Walter Hudson. And now I get to have you both on the Derate the Hate podcast. So this is an incredible honor. I am I'm so happy to have both of you here today and bring, I think, all the Derate the Hate listeners already know about the Enemies Project, but now I want to bring to the Derate the Hate listeners, the people behind the Enemies Project.
So, Larry, Sadie, this is an incredible honor. And first, I just want everybody to know you guys are a father daughter duo in this project, in this program. And I want to know how that started. So, Sadie, I want to start with you first and tell me what about what about the bridging space appealed to you?
That said, I, you know, I'm going to go to work with my dad on this on this ambitious Enemies Project. [00:05:05:19] Sadie Rosen: Well, long before my dad was interested in creating this thing that we call the Enemies Project. Today, I've been really interested in understanding people that are different than me, and I think this started maybe an elementary school when I was surrounded by a very liberal community. But I also have a lot of very conservative family in Ohio, and we would go there for our holidays.
And I have some of the best memories there. And I remember it was confusing growing up because people in school would be saying stuff about conservatives that I knew not to be true, because I spent time with them, and I loved them and I cared for them. And that always caused this confusion in my mind that I, that I wanted to bridge. And I didn't even know what bridging was.
And fast forward all these years later, I'm still interested in this. And my dad told me that he was going to start this thing called the Enemies Project, and that he was going to release it on social media. And I said, dad, I want to help you. I think I might have some knowledge about social media that I love to implement, and from there it kind of just skyrocketed.
And I've just become so interested in every aspect of the project. [00:06:21:16] Wilk Wilkinson: That is fantastic. That's fantastic. And Larry, Just knowing a little bit about your story, Larry, you've been a kind of this world renowned peacemaker for, for quite some time.
you come at it from a legal mediation background, but, but you've, you've, you've made the rounds through Ted speeches and things like that that have, have put you on the worldwide stage in terms of peacemaking. What about your background? What what made you decide you wanted to do, venture into the world of social media and public bridge building? tell me about your tell me about your interest in making this Enemies Project happen.
[00:07:09:08] Larry Rosen: So my interest comes from my kids, all kids not wanting to see them suffer in the world. And we're creating a world where they may suffer unless we figure out how to work with each other. So that's that's I mean, we all know that, that, that, that, that capacity of human beings and human society has, has collapsed or is collapsing. And that was an acceptable for me.
I was really upset about it, depressed about it for a bit for a while and So I really wanted to change that. And I didn't know how. And I felt powerless like a lot of people. And I started to write about it, and people weren't really reading the writing, you know, it was.
It was like nonfiction writing. And. And I recognized that the vehicle needs to be through entertainment in some way. Sure.
People are not interested in education. And so I had a thought and I shared it with some people about the Enemies Project, and they were like, go do that, go do that thing. I want to see that. And and so I did, and I didn't know what I was doing, but I knew I had some skill because I had been a mediator for a long time.
And I've also really enjoy storytelling and narrative. And I thought, I can do this. I mean, why not? And it's been doable.
[00:08:39:01] Wilk Wilkinson: It has been doable. You guys have had incredible success. I mean, success, unlike almost anybody else that I've ever heard of in the bridge building space, which is which has been amazing. One of the big three lines in your story, Larry, to my own story, that that I think was a was a great connection piece for you and I right in the beginning when when you and I started talking months and months and months ago, was was that idea of our kids and why we do this?
I always tell my kids, I'm just trying to fix a world that I didn't break, but. [00:09:15:19] Larry Rosen: I like that. [00:09:16:12] Wilk Wilkinson: That immediately drew me to you. And your story was, was was when you said it was because of your kids that you were doing this.
And and then obviously, I had the opportunity to meet Sadie and the, the bond that you guys have developed doing this was was amazing. And the fact that that you already had this, this background in mediation and and, and peacemaking, talk to me about you said you you brought that talent to the bridge building space. Talk to me about what you were doing in, in, in the legal profession. I mean, I know that you had a, had a history at conflict mediation.
What what about that particular thing? what made you know that that talent was going to translate into these cultural issues, these this enemy culture that we're seeing today and how how what was your plan for using that skill set? [00:10:20:01] Larry Rosen: So I didn't know I in my mediations. I would sometimes be sitting there with me and a couple of people who I was mediating between and saying, wow, this is amazing.
Like I wish somebody else could see this. This is so transformative. I didn't and I do mediations between people who know each other, who have a legal problem. So the founders of a company, people who are inheriting money, people who are divorcing where they wouldn't have a legal problem if they were getting along.
And so my job is to help them understand each other, to help them get along. And I saw the same problems in the political world that people really weren't understanding each other. I did not know whether it would translate. And the reason was that people with a personal dispute actually know each other and want to resolve the personal relationship, or often want to, so they don't have pain in their life.
Why would people who don't know each other with political disputes want to do that? I didn't know if they had the motivation, and I didn't know if my ability to bring them to understanding would be transformative for them. So it was a speculation, but I thought it probably would. And so I built a slightly different structure, which was I would help them understand each other as human beings.
Before we went into the conflict resolution for the show. Sure, we'd really, like, dispense with politics and bring them to understand each other as human beings. That's the additional piece I built in, and that worked really well. Like they got to know each other and things started to melt.
The other piece that I had to bring in in order to make it entertaining, because in mediation the goal was not to be entertaining. Right. But but you want somebody to watch your show. It has to be is that I had them argue to start like mediation.
You don't necessarily want them to argue to start. You're like trying to build peace immediately. But I. [00:12:20:21] Wilk Wilkinson: Was already there.
You're just trying to put it out. [00:12:23:15] Larry Rosen: Yeah, yeah. But here I was like, I got to stoke the flames a little bit in order to have it have some kind of narrative arc. What I didn't realize, and what became clear to me after a while, is that the more I stoke the flames, the more powerful the resolution.
People who were less protected, you know, who were angry, were were more vulnerable, actually, and their transformation was deeper for them and more surprising. And so it served, you know. So I had it I had to tweak it somewhat to make it a show, but it translated pretty well. [00:12:58:17] Wilk Wilkinson: It is very much Translated very well.
See, talk to me a little bit about, growing up and, and listening to your dad talk about, you know, his mediation work and, and then, you know, just knowing what he'd been doing for a living and knowing about his background in the law, background in mediation and conflict resolution, when he came to you with this idea about the The Enemies Project, what was your what was your initial thought? And kind of take me back to that. You know what it was like growing up watching him do this. And how did you see it translating, moving into the the pre works of of what has become the Enemies Project.
[00:13:43:13] Sadie Rosen: So I've always thought my dad was unique. He's definitely a unique guy. But I don't think I ever, you know growing up that he was my dad I don't think I saw him as special. Sorry, dad, you are special.
[00:13:59:18] Larry Rosen: But I was I mean, I came to them with so many ideas. You know, you may know Ralph Kramden from The Honeymooners like, he always has a get rich quick scheme or something from my. My family was so sick of my ideas. It's just like, okay, go do your thing.
[00:14:16:20] Sadie Rosen: But but I think that especially when I came to college and I, you know, became aware of the way that so many other people were raised, I realized, wow, I, I was raised by a, by a pretty good one. And, and I think that, you know, I growing up, like trying to have a nuanced perspective is, is maybe too much the sitting in the back of of the car gossiping and then your dad's trying to tell you, just think about it from their perspective. And you know, you're like, dad, I don't I'm not trying to do that right now. I'm ten years old.
But but, you know, I think that, you know, throughout time, those those messages resonate. And now I'm probably that friend that's telling my other friends, try to look at it from that other perspective. And so that's just kind of built into me throughout growing up without even knowing it. And in addition to my deep interest in politics and and bridge building, I was like, this seems great.
And originally I didn't even think that I would be really involved. I said, Maybe I'll help with social media, get it launched, and then that's your thing. But as soon as I got into this world, I just became so excited and like, addicted to it, talking to all these people who have this common goal, who are so different but have this common goal. It's just so inspiring.
And I just couldn't help. [00:15:46:09] Larry Rosen: And you've loved speaking. From what I've heard from Sadie, she's loved interviewing people like she interviews people who might be on the show for casting purposes. And she does an initial screening.
So she speaks with all these fairly extreme people. Sure. Which you wouldn't have exposure to otherwise. [00:16:07:19] Sadie Rosen: I've spoken to maybe 100 people this summer.
[00:16:12:10] Wilk Wilkinson: Oh, wow. [00:16:12:22] Sadie Rosen: All different stories. Not one was, you know what I expected? And every single one of them, I.
I think that I'll carry with me because I, I see all these people as beautiful, no matter how different their perspectives are to me. They're all so passionate, and I can respect that for sure. [00:16:36:17] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. That's one of the things that that struck me so much about the way that you guys do this thing.
I mean, when you initially approached Braver Angels about, you know, finding people that might be interested in doing this project. And we started having conversations and, and that's obviously the time that I, you know, first met both of you and, and just the thoughtfulness and the depth with which you guys are kind of digging into your potential guests or even potential collaborators was, was, I think, absolutely incredible. I mean, I've, I've obviously done hundreds of interviews now and had conversations with hundreds and, I don't know, maybe a thousand people throughout my work in the in the bridge building space. But but that kind of depth and the follow up questions that you guys use and, and just all the different things that you, you know, ways that you, you dig into the like I said, the backstory, the understory, the through lines, all of the different things that and tools that you guys use.
I imagine that that a lot of that stems, Larry, from your, your years as a, as a mediator because to to be a proper and successful mediator, you have to really understand the sides and understand not just the sides of the issue, but the people that hold, the values that they hold, what they hold dear to them and, and things like that. Talk a little bit about that more for me. [00:18:22:05] Larry Rosen: Yeah. I think that I think a mediator has to have two fundamental skills which are not always found in the same person.
One is you have to be pretty empathetic so that you understand the people at a depth yourself. And the other is you have to be modeling things like making a map of what's happening, which is a really intellectual kind of cognitive skill. And so you have to have both sides of these in order to be a mediator, I believe, to be figuring out how am I going to get the other person to understand this? What is this interaction really mean?
What is the through line? What's my plan? All of that requires different skill than I'm just going to feel what you feel and explain it to the other person. And so I'm doing both of those at the same time.
And I didn't even really realize it was a skill until I was doing the show and explaining it to people and people. Some people could do one part, but not the other. And so it became clear that I had both parts of that. And I think when I look at other mediators who are who I believe are pretty good mediators, they have those two sides living inside of themselves.
And we don't know that until it's tested. Right? Right, right. Some people are just really feeling people.
Some people are really cognitive people. So I have a bit of both. And the other thing that I think is really important, at least for the show, is that a storytelling ability, like I am thinking about the story and I am planning that before people come in, what do I think is going to be the through line here? What am I going to want to highlight?
I'm very often wrong about it. Like I planned it out and then it goes somewhere else. Sure. But that I was planning it out had me really thinking about how to dramatically build it up, and to be looking in the moment for what might crescendo.
So I think that it's just a variety of things that I didn't really know I held until I started this project. [00:20:22:06] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. And you make such a great point there. I mean, just from the conversations that I do and, and and like I said, I, I don't my, my shows are shorter than yours and not nearly as in-depth and don't have the kind of art that your show typically does.
But I found that if I try to do a lot of prep work and try to plan where the thing is going to go, it ends up sounding very rehearsed and it doesn't go where I want it to go anyway. And then it's kind of like that old and I brought it up on the show before, but it's like that old Mike Tyson phrase, right? Everybody's got a plan until you get punched in the face. It's one of those things like, people are so different, and especially when you're bringing together people who are very different personalities, they hold different values.
They see the world in a completely different way. You never can really tell how how that thing is going to go until it's actually happening. And then that's where that special skill set comes in, Larry, where where you are able to adjust on the fly based on the information that's coming in in real time and how that thing is, is happening. [00:21:32:06] Larry Rosen: Yeah.
And that's a personality thing. Also, you know, like some people have more controlling personalities. I would say I do. Right.
Like I'm not uncomfortable redirecting people. I'll ask for their permission to do so beforehand. But my edge in life has always been being less of that. Right.
Like and so that's been my learning edge personally. So that aspect which, which is necessary to kind of to be to be flexible but also redirecting to stop people, to have them really think about what they're saying takes a certain, I think, personality type. So again, you know, a people can develop all of these skills, but, you know, some people just have personalities that are well suited for different tasks. Yeah, yeah.
[00:22:27:15] Wilk Wilkinson: And Sadie, talk to me about some of the things that you've learned from watching your dad do these do these interviews. I mean, you, you yourself now are doing a lot of the prescreening. You're having a lot of these conversations now. Do you find it different now having those conversations than when you started?
Or did you already pick up a lot of that from your dad growing up? And and you've you've brought it in. How has that been been playing out for you? Working on the Enemies Project?
[00:23:00:08] Sadie Rosen: I mean, I think that throughout this past over a year now of interviewing people, I've come to talk less about politics and more about their care and their pain, which is, in my opinion, slightly more interesting and, you know, really connects me to this person. And that's before I started doing the interviews. I used to listen to my dad doing them and just like sit in on the other side of the camera just listening in. And that's something that I, that I always found really interesting is, you know, we listen, the policy parts are important.
But more than that, it's the why, why you keep asking why until you get to the deepest part of their belief. And that's when you can truly understand them and respect them and see where they're coming from. And that is I've definitely improved at getting to that deepest part. Why do they really care?
Who are they doing it for? And I think that yeah, it's it's a, it's a pattern that, that I've come to understand pretty well. [00:24:11:06] Larry Rosen: Yeah. And you were just speaking about it the other day that you said, I really feel like I've improved in my ability to dig into people.
And that was exciting for you. [00:24:19:05] Sadie Rosen: Yeah. For sure. [00:24:21:13] Wilk Wilkinson: it is an exciting thing.
I mean, when I personally, you know, started doing interviews for the podcast, I had interviewed people for jobs before, you know, as a manager in, in the trucking industry and things like that. I had never interviewed a person to learn about the person. You know, I had no idea. And, and I did not have a mentor like, like you do to Sadie in your in your dad Larry and how to do this.
And that's why it's, it's wonderful for me to to think about the relationship that you guys have built and, and continue to build doing this thing. You know, it was funny, a few minutes ago we were talking about the way that you interact and the things that your dad would say to you when you're in the back seat of the car with the siblings and stuff like that. My daughter had just brought me back in my mind. My daughter, she's six and she's got the, you know, sass of a 16 year old, but, you know, some sometimes she looked at me and said, like, daddy, I don't have any idea what you're talking about, using words.
I don't know. And I'm not sure what you're trying to say. And it's my gosh, it's it's funny, but to think about it, I mean, especially like, you know, when, when your dad's job and this in this case or in your case, you, you know, Larry's this, this mediator, peace builder, this, this kind of academic in a world where he brings people together and he's trying to talk to a ten year old little girl about, you know, the, the, the workings of. [00:26:00:11] Larry Rosen: It didn't work so well.
My kids, I have two daughters three years apart. Sadie's the older one. And one thing they agree on, they came up with this and they both liked to say, no dad lessons today, right? Like, okay dad.
No. No dad lessons. Okay. [00:26:19:00] Sadie Rosen: You're very philosophical, which is a wonderful thing, but a lot.
Of things, just random things in life turn into a life lesson. And sometimes I end up rolling my eyes when it's every day. [00:26:31:04] Larry Rosen: If it's particularly when they were young and when they would be in the back seat, you know, I'd hear, you know, one kid talking about another kid and I'd be trying to hold it, you know, like, but in my mind, it's like, I want you to treat that kid well. And I'd eventually, like, sometimes turn around and say, have you?
And and my wife was always better at just listening, you know, like listening to it, but I couldn't I could not hold it after a while. Oh. [00:26:57:17] Wilk Wilkinson: And that's why, like, if my daughter is on the phone with one of her little school friends or whatever, I've just got to go in the other room. Because when they when I hear them interacting, my first instinct is to jump in there and say, no, you can't say this.
[00:27:10:22] Larry Rosen: Are you? [00:27:11:16] Wilk Wilkinson: Stop! Oh my gosh, that's hilarious. So okay, so, so the the success that you guys have had with the The Enemies Project is, is pretty much unmatched by any, any kind of programing in the, in the bridge building space.
One of the biggest challenges we face in the bridge building space. And this, you know what we call it braver angels, courageous citizenship space. How do we work together across differences? Your guys's success in terms of the number of views the number of followers is, is really unmatched.
It's incredible, I think, coming up on 200,000 followers, on Instagram, on nearly 100,000 followers, on YouTube, millions and millions of views. When you guys realized or came to the realization that that this thing was really happening, I mean, these numbers were were coming and they were coming big, what was what was that feeling like? And I'll start with you, Larry. But what was that when you saw that this thing was taken off?
What did you think? [00:28:23:13] Larry Rosen: Well, I was hopeful, you know, because the goal is to have an impact on the world. So it felt great, but I had no basis for comparison. Right?
Like, as you see that people have five, 10 million followers. So it's like, you know, if I had if I was 50,000 100,000 followers, it didn't mean that much to me. Like I just didn't have a basis for comparison. I didn't think that was a lot.
The other thing I'll say is that that which is weird and and you may understand this, Wilk, people who are in like public businesses may understand this. We get a lot of really impassioned comments from people who really appreciate it. And that was both, you know, very encouraging. But also it's weird because I don't know those people and it's hard to let in, you know.
And so there's this weird dichotomy in me and that, oh, it feels good. And yet I want to be like present to these people, but I can't actually always feel what they're expressing as gratitude. So it's a it's kind of an interesting discovery in myself. Yeah.
[00:29:31:08] Wilk Wilkinson: And Sadie, same thing for you. What when you initially saw that this thing was taken off the way that it was, you guys were putting up the kind of numbers that you were. What was that feeling like for you? [00:29:45:13] Sadie Rosen: I think personally, you know, as someone who's been on social media for a long time now, at the very beginning, it was really exciting just to see those numbers go up.
You just scroll and there's more. And I think, you know, after a little bit that that feeling kind of wears off. And I'm looking at these huge numbers and I'm kind of it's almost incomprehensible. I remember like searching up a picture of how, how many people is a million people in one space to try to visualize it.
And I think more than that, what really makes me feel like so warm inside is knowing the actual people that I've impacted. Last night I was on on the phone with my best friend and I was, I think it was like 11 p.m. I was editing a real like just mundane li and she, she said, you know how cool it is that you're actually impacting real people. Do you think about how many real families that you guys have actually touched?
And you maybe you don't know it, but but they're out there and they're thankful and and you know, I was just sitting at my computer on iMovie editing this thing, and I, I just stopped for a second, and, and I, and I felt really, really whole and I tried I tried to remember that as much as I can. It's a really beautiful feeling. [00:31:05:18] Larry Rosen: Yeah, yeah. [00:31:07:17] Wilk Wilkinson: And that's that kind of I mean, what I hear you expressing there is, is it kind of gratitude combined with humility in that, that, you know, it's it's not about the numbers that you're putting up, but the impact and the individual impacts that it makes.
And, and knowing both of you, you know, for as much as I know both of you now, I know that it's it's not about the numbers, it's about the actual impact that it's making. And I think that's awesome. And and that's what I love to hear about people in this space that are doing this kind of thing. I mean, that's for me, it's the same thing.
I don't, you know, I don't pretend to have the kind of. I guess, volume of followers that, that you guys have. But every time I get that one email and, and Larry, kind of going to your point, there's no way we can, you know, take in and really feel everything that comes in, especially when you're in this space, especially when it's one of these emotionally driven spaces and it hits people deep. You know, it's hard to take in all of it, but every now and then you'll get that one email or that one message that it just hits you right in the I mean, it hits you deep, you know, heart almost skips a beat.
You get goosebumps because you know that, you know, that something you said or did had an impact and really changed people's lives. [00:32:44:01] Larry Rosen: Yeah, it's interesting because you do this thing to have a large scale impact on the world, but the meaningful things are when there's an individual who expresses it in a way that touches you, the numbers become kind of meaningless. Right? And and then somebody sends you a letter that says, I spoke to my dad, I hadn't spoken to him.
And it made a huge difference in my life. And that feels so meaningful. Yeah. [00:33:09:01] Wilk Wilkinson: No, it absolutely does.
You're absolutely right. And it's it's such a beautiful thing. And, you know, and then then as we round out our time here and we knew it was going to go fast, but but the one question that I'm constantly thinking about is, is that, we in this, in this space to have that deep impact, that deep cultural impact, that societal impact that we want to have. I mean, it's great to hit the individuals and especially the ones that need it the most.
But in order to hit as many people as possible, we have to get our messaging outside of the bridging space. I think you guys have done a masterful job at doing that. I think a lot of organizations, myself included, struggle with getting our message outside of the bridging space. talk about that.
What what do you think the key in getting this message beyond the walls of this bridging silo are [00:34:07:20] Larry Rosen: So I think that the bridging space is unfortunately misunderstood and maybe misunderstands itself a little bit. The people who are interested aren't people who are politicos. They like going after politicos, people who are interested in depolarization, who are interested in cross partisan conversation, who are even interested in citizenship, is a very narrow population, and they are the choir. I think that that the larger population who's interested in this space but doesn't know it, are people who are interested in relational healing, people who want to have healthy relationships in their lives.
And they've tuned politics out because it's so unhealthy. These are the people who are really inspired by what we're doing and who are potentially activated as Bridgers, but they don't know it. They're not waking up thinking about politics. They're thinking politics sucks.
They're waking up thinking, it sucks that I can't speak to my parents. There are thinking I want my relationships to have more love in them. And those people really want a society that reflects that. So I think it's a different target than the bridging space presently thinks of itself as having.
[00:35:23:10] Wilk Wilkinson: That's that's right. So so smart. Yeah for sure. And Sadie, what are your thoughts?
[00:35:28:15] Sadie Rosen: I think. That. Bridging in general is kind of this intangible term. If I'm going to explain bridging to my friend, it's you know, it's different than explaining if I was, you know, a Democrat and I want to vote for these policies and get this person in office.
And and bridging itself is less of a tangible thing. And we've kind of added a tangible aspect, which is these personal stories, as we were just talking about, it's really hard to comprehend all these, all these numbers and, and, you know, just this data of all these people out there. But when we look at one individual story, that's when we can become really impacted. And these stories are so incredibly powerful and we just know it in our, in our brains, that's that's what we're interested in.
We can hear, you know, this thing happened to this many people, but how much can you really care without understanding who those people are and why it impacted them? I think that we've added that this really. Yeah, just this tangible aspect to it that that that really puts it in people's minds and gives people hope. [00:36:42:08] Wilk Wilkinson: It's smart.
Thank you. That's beautiful. Yeah, yeah. Giving people hope, giving them something to hold on to, giving them a story that they can see themselves in.
These are all hugely important points and I think you guys do it as well, if not better than. [00:37:00:02] Larry Rosen: Before people. [00:37:01:03] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. [00:37:01:22] Larry Rosen: Before we go, I want to say something to your audience.
They probably don't know how people perceive Wilk in the real world. We went to the Braver Angels Conference, Sadie and I, and I would say that Wilk is is the most liked player in in the bridging world. Like every he's hugging everybody. He's always got a smile.
He's like moving boxes around. He's doing interviews like everybody counts on him for everything. [00:37:32:12] Sadie Rosen: The bridging mascot. During the.
[00:37:35:08] Larry Rosen: So so like just listen to that laugh. So just to know Wilk at a different level. He's he's he's a lovable figure. [00:37:43:13] Sadie Rosen: He really is.
[00:37:44:18] Wilk Wilkinson: Oh my God. My whole face is all hot red. Well, you guys are too kind. And and I appreciate you both so much.
I obviously I encourage everybody to check out Enemies Project. Your guys's work is amazing. I love I love being part of it. And I love the fact that we've we've get to do this stuff together.
So Larry Rosen, Sadie Rosen, thank you so much for for all you're doing for the world in which we live. It's it's incredible. And and I'm honored to have you in my circle for sure. [00:38:20:22] Sadie Rosen: Thanks for having us.
Wilk. [00:38:22:16] Larry Rosen: Thank you. Wilk. [00:38:24:08] Wilk Wilkinson: Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in.
And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate The Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together. So please take a moment to visit Braver Angels and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divide.
This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be.
With that, my friend. I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
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