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What causes someone to embrace extremism?
More importantly — what causes someone to walk away from it?
In this powerful and deeply human conversation, Mubin Shaikh shares his journey from radicalized youth to undercover counterterrorism operative — and now Exit Interventionist with Parents for Peace.
His story is not about ideology.
It’s about identity. Belonging. Agency. Family. And courageous course correction.
✅ How identity crises make young people vulnerable to extremism
✅ The “Cupcake Theory” of radicalization
✅ Why radicalization is a normal human psychological process
✅ The role 9/11 played in Mubin’s turning point
✅ The moral dilemmas of working undercover against former allies
✅ What parents must understand about online radicalization
✅ Why open conversation beats lecturing every time
After self-deradicalizing, Mubin:
• Studied Arabic and Islamic theology in Syria
• Volunteered to work undercover for Canadian intelligence
• Helped dismantle the Toronto 18 terror plot
• Supported counter-ISIS efforts with U.S. and coalition forces
• Became a featured exhibit in the International Spy Museum (Washington, D.C.)
All before turning his focus to prevention.
Today, Mubin works as an Exit Interventionist with Parents for Peace — a nonpartisan organization helping families recognize and respond to signs of radicalization before it escalates.
They work across ideologies.
They focus on intervention, not punishment.
They empower parents to engage, not panic.
🔗 Learn more about Parents for Peace: www.parents4peace.org
🔗 Connect with Mubin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mubins/
Radicalization is not about religion alone.
It’s about identity, belonging, grievance, and environment.
Utopian fantasies + online echo chambers + adolescent brains
= combustible mix.
The antidote?
Connection.
Education.
Agency.
Courageous citizenship.
Anyone can be radicalized.
Anyone can also reclaim their agency.
That’s what this episode is really about.
The world is a better place if we are better people. That begins with each of us as individuals. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for all you’ve got. Make every day the day that you want it to be!
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*The views expressed by Wilk, his guest hosts &/or guests on the Derate The Hate podcast are their own and should not be attributed to any organization they may otherwise be affiliated with.
Transcript is AI generated & may contain errors
[00:00:00:00] Wilk Wilkinson: How does a young man go from being one of the cool kids to idolizing violent extremists, and then to working undercover to stop them? Mubin Shaikh lived that transformation? This is a conversation about radicalization, identity crisis, family, and the power of courageous course correction. Stick with me and we'll get into it. Welcome back, my friends, for the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross. partisan organization working towards civic renewal. This podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ. Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the Hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Share it with a friend and visit BraverAngels.org to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partisan divide. Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it. Today, you're going to hear one of the most fascinating and honestly humbling stories that we've ever featured on this show. Moving shake grew up in Toronto as a teenager. He experienced an identity crisis that slowly escalated into radicalization. He immersed himself in extremist ideology. He idolized violent jihadist. He believed that he was part of something bigger than 9/11 happened. And instead of doubling down, he began asking hard questions. That story led him to Syria to study Arabic and Islamic theology. It led him to completely reexamine what he had believed. And when he returned to Canada, he did something extraordinary. He volunteered to work undercover with the Canadian Security Intelligence Service. He infiltrated extremist networks. He helped to stop terrorist plots. His work is now permanently featured in the International Spy Museum in Washington, D.C.. Under Preventing Terror. Today, moving works with parents for peace, helping families intervene before radicalization turns into violence. This conversation is about psychology, belonging, identity, moral dilemmas, parenting in the digital age, and the reality that radicalization can happen anywhere if the right ingredients are present. Let's get into it with my friend. Moving. Shake. Here we go. Mubin Shaikh, it's good to see you again, man. Welcome to the Derate the Hate podcast.
[00:03:50:01] Mubin Shaikh: Right on. Thanks for having me.
[00:03:52:00] Wilk Wilkinson: Absolutely, man. I'm, I'm excited to bring this story to the listeners. Mubin because, what you're doing is so incredibly important in the world in which we live today. Terrorism, global terrorism, extremism is is always a problem, on the minds of so many. And, I've, I've had the opportunity, you know, via this podcast, to have some incredible conversations with, deradicalization experts, people who have, who've done incredible work and when I heard a bit about your story, Mubin and and how you went from, from from being radicalized yourself as a young person to then actually deradicalizing yourself and, and then becoming part of the solution, and now being part of Parents for Peace. I'm like, this is somebody I definitely want to introduce to the listeners. So, so grateful to have you here, man.
[00:04:51:12] Mubin Shaikh: Oh, thanks for having me. It's important to discuss these issues. You know, they're so timely and relevant and, you know, it's it's best for the people to get the right information. Right? As opposed to all the all the garbage that's out there. So hopefully we can do some of that today.
[00:05:06:17] Wilk Wilkinson: Absolutely. There is a lot of garbage out there. So so bringing you in here to to talk a little bit about this, and the and the way that I really want to start this Mubin is, is to, to first, you know, kind of get into what it was, you know, as a younger man when, when you first, I guess, found yourself becoming radicalized. Because you're from Canada. Right. Just so the, the listeners know, you're from Canada and, and, and, and so you're not, you're not native to some of the areas that that people would, would generally kind of think about radicals coming from, you know, whether it be the Middle East or, or different areas of the country when it comes to like, Islamic terrorism. You're you're from originally from Canada. And and you became radicalized, as a, as a teenager. Can you walk me through that? What, what that was. And and what that looked like, from from not being, you know, or growing up in Canada to becoming radicalized in that type of environment.
[00:06:19:21] Mubin Shaikh: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, radicalization is, it's I can simply define it as, you know, a I like to say a normal human psychological process whereby people become increasingly extreme in their views. So it's this process of escalation.
[00:06:40:21] Wilk Wilkinson: Sure.
[00:06:41:21] Mubin Shaikh: The end result of that is either extremism, where you come to believe that violence in the public space is okay, or the other output is violent extremism, where you believe in doing the violence in the public space. Okay. So the even like the idea that like, oh, radicalization is something that happens over there or. Right, like this is part of the education that people need to have, which is radicalization can happen anywhere. The conditions are present. Right? It's like the ingredients that you kind of put into it. So sometimes I jokingly referred to it as like the cupcake theory radicalization. Yeah. Where it's like if you put in the right amount of flour and then one egg and the sugar and, and then you put it in an environment. Right? That is conducive to that. So it cooks and it bakes the cupcake. And then if the temperature is right and you follow the instructions, you get cupcakes. So you got a desert. Yeah. So wherever you are, whatever your background, that kind of radicalization can occur. And it depends. Sometimes, I mean, there are different factors, you know, if you can imagine people pull in to their, their center, all these different things. Right. So, you know, let's say a white kid growing up in rural America, he's gone to Bible school from the age of five. How is he gonna view the world when he's 15? Now, I deliberately use that example because I'm going to use my example. So what if you go to Koran school from the age of five? How are you going to look at the world when you're 15? And so that's what happened to me. I grew up, yeah. I'm born and raised in Toronto, Canada. My parents are Indian Muslim background. And what you find is in a lot of these urban places where a community will come to, they tend to replicate what they know. Right? It's it's just conditioning, expressing the conditioning. So if they grew up with this style of Islamic school, when they come to Canada, they're going to set up that style of Islamic school. And that's why you see these same styles of Islamic schools, especially coming from the Indo Pakistani, you know, context. Sure. Anywhere there are large groups of Indo Pakistanis. So in the UK, in the US, Canada, Australia, various countries in Europe, and the thing was, is that for especially for radicalization in the West, Muslim kids, I'll speak from my perspective, identity crisis. Right. You have that you if you will, old world mentality. Right. So my parents I mean you know, they're they're born and raised in India. My dad did kind of he did spend some of his, older teenage years, young 20s in the UK. He was studying electronics, you know, in the thing was the 60s, it would have been, and in Canada, you know, the community, the Muslim, the Muslim community, basically, because especially my generation, we came from where, you know, these people had come from these countries, right? They had been in the country for maybe 20 years. And so they're replicating those institutions that they're accustomed to. So I am basically forced to go to Koran school from the age of five, but I'm also going to public school during the daytime. Okay. Right. Okay. And this is a complete juxtaposed, complete opposite the Koran school is abusive. It's forcing religion. Boys and girls, no mixing. Right. It's pretty much one demographic, one ethnic grouping. Juxtapose that with the public school boys and girls mixing, caring, nurturing environment. Very diverse background. So this starts to lay the foundation for an identity crisis that would hit me later in my life when I go to high school.
[00:10:57:13] Wilk Wilkinson: How could I not?
[00:10:58:13] Mubin Shaikh: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, mostly it's because when I got to high school, you know, I wasn't bullied, I wasn't picked on. I wasn't the victim of racism. Like, that was not my trajectory, my experiences. We were the cool kids of high school.
[00:11:16:12] Wilk Wilkinson: Okay?
[00:11:16:22] Mubin Shaikh: And, you know, one of the things that I learned from, that that that crew is, house parties. All right, you can remember those back in the day, man. And I always remember thinking to myself, geez, these white people, man, they, like their parents, allowed them to do this stuff. And of course they don't. You know, I mean, right, right. But then I experienced that. I liked that environment. I had a lot of fun. I was a kid, and then I had my own house party. But unfortunately for me, my dad actually had his brother check on the house while he was gone. My dad and my parents were out of town.
[00:11:55:01] Wilk Wilkinson: Okay.
[00:11:55:12] Mubin Shaikh: And so in the middle of the party, my uncle burst through the door and basically catches me red handed. Yeah. And so the shame and the guilt and the trouble that I got into was just overwhelming for me as because I was an 18 year old kid, right?
[00:12:12:08] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:12:13:02] Mubin Shaikh: And so basically I told, you know, I told myself in my panic, okay, the only way that I'm going to make amends is for me to, quote unquote, get religious. So I would then travel, a year later to India and Pakistan. And there was this immersion program that Muslim kids, especially troubled Muslim kids, would be sent to. And it was this immersion experience. You stayed at the mosque, you lived there, you did all your activities there, you know, for four months. And so we went across all these different mosques in India and then in Pakistan. But in Pakistan, one of the places they sent us to was a city called Quetta and Quetta at that time. And today was and is a stronghold of the Taliban.
[00:13:05:15] Wilk Wilkinson: Oh boy.
[00:13:06:04] Mubin Shaikh: Okay, so when I was walking around with a local guy, we came across these guys who I thought were just other religious dudes. They had turbans, beards, robes and as I came closer to them, I realized they have weapons displayed in front of them rocket propelled grenades, AK 47, belts of ammunition. And I thought to myself, wait a second. I like I these are not the religious types that I've been hanging around with, because those guys are a political, nonviolent. Sure. But my exposure to this, the Taliban, as this young Muslim man looking for some kind of identity, some kind of purpose, some kind of belonging to a greater cause, this is what, got me interested in that group. And then I started looking more into the group, and then I really bought into the whole, you know, Muslim machismo, so I can put it that way. Right? These are warriors, you know, they're fighting the good fight, and and I, I bought into it, you know, and I said, I realized I remember, you know, telling myself, I want to be like these people. I want to join them. I want to do exactly what they're doing. Yeah. And that's that's the that's how I radicalization trajectory began.
[00:14:31:13] Wilk Wilkinson: Oh my gosh. So this and there's there's a common theme in a lot of people that that that I've spoke with Mubin who were who, you know, former radicals or of or have encountered or interacted with a lot of radicals. And, and I think that identity crisis thing is, is hugely important that you bring up and then, yeah, the, the kind of bravado that comes along with, with that, that I guess that warrior ethos and, and and how, how tempting that can be, especially for a young man. I mean, especially for a young man. I mean, I remember what it was like to be, in my late teens and my early 20s and, you know, I joined the U.S. military, but but, yeah, that that, you know, not really having the the wherewithal to know exactly where you want your life to be. But now you encounter this, this thing, you know, I, I remember, you know, personally, I remember like, when I was in boot camp, they, they, they had these videos that would run, that would say, the United States Navy, a global force for good, you know, and that, you know, still to this day gives me goosebumps just just thinking about that. But I can see how easily, you know, and they run those things, obviously to, to get that part of your mindset. But I can see as a young man how, how that thing that you're describing could really kind of kind of bring you in. So then so then talk to me about, you know, as, as you become more, more radicalized as you start to kind of, I guess, idolize some of these, these people who are or, you know, with the Taliban, weapons fighters, just these, these figures, as you become more radicalized. How did that start to manifest itself for you? But then, and we don't need to get super deep into it, but what changed it for you? What turned that around? Because when someone becomes radicalized but then realizes that that is not their the trajectory that they want to go down. What was that for you?
[00:16:53:23] Mubin Shaikh: Yeah, that's a good question. So in the beginning, you know, you, you take on this sense of like, okay, I belong to something. Great. Now I'm a part of this, this bigger cause, I can take credit for when they do attacks or they do something. And it was always attacks overseas. Primarily. So, if I let me just date myself a little bit, I need to get right with the chronology, because in 1995 is when I went to India and Pakistan and had my radicalization experience, then I came back, I accelerated or I escalated my activities. So the group that I had gone with, I left them because they were not political enough. So I was becoming more extreme. And now I'm looking I'm seeking out those people who believe what I believe I fell into, or I found a group. And not that they were hard to find. It's really the Salafist interpretation of Islam. A very literalist interpretation. And, and I joined up with them, and immediately thereafter, you start to become very separationist from the world. So this is a non-Muslim. It's very it's framed in binary, black and white, Muslim, non-Muslim, good people, evil people. There was no gray in between, no color. Right. Only black and white. So these are some of the signs that that you, you see manifested from that extremism, the glorification of violence and death rhetoric, the sudden change in, in, outward dress. Now, that by itself is not a warning sign. I don't want people to get that confused just because a kid might decide to become a religious, that's okay. But when you attach that to other things like beliefs, you know, glorification of violence, the desire to travel to conflict zones, support of activities in conflict zones. You now you start to get this cluster of behaviors that you can correctly identify as extremism. So I kept that up for a while. And what I mean by while I get so 95, I get back at the end of 95, the Taliban take over the first time. I take that as a validation of their worldview, I accelerate. But then this weird thing happens in 1998, right? Just like two years, a little bit more than two years later, actually. And then 95 soon now, three years later. Almost. Yeah. Like in December of 90 of, 1998, I got married. I got married to a girl that I knew from high school who became interested in me after I came back from Pakistan. And, and I didn't, you know, everybody didn't know what I was doing and who I was hanging around with. But I there was almost this compartmentalization. So, like, I didn't tell her the kind of people that I was hanging out with in my ideology because I wanted her right. And I didn't want to say anything that would that would kibosh that. Right?
[00:19:51:20] Wilk Wilkinson: Right.
[00:19:52:07] Mubin Shaikh: So getting married, what that did, is it if you think psychologically for, you know, it meant a set and intimacy need a deep human need. Now, this Muslim kid who's thinking about life and what I should do and blah, blah, blah, now it's like you're you're going to get married. Well, now think about that for a young man, it's like, well, these are one of the things I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to get married, have a family, so on and so forth. So what happened is, it took a lot of my energy and meaning, like, willingly. Like I wanted to do this. I wanted to be with her. And so, hanging around with the bad friends as I call it, you know, started to wane in its influence and its attraction. And I was kind of like one leg in both worlds, you know, I was still hanging out with the guys, but, you know, spending more time at home now. And, you know, a year later, I have my first kid. And so this, this is adding up and, and then what happens is from 98 to 2001, you can see it's really starting to wane. And then in 2001, 9/11 happens. And that is the the one main thing that really got me thinking. Wait a second. Like, is this really what I support? Is this really what I'm about? And if you think about it, this kid who in the beginning, yeah, he was like, this is what I'm about and let's go. Allahu Akbar. Okay. But then now it's like, well, I have a family, I have a kid, and I got to pay the bills and any of the, you know, I kind of work. I got to do all these mundane, everyday life things. No longer living in this abstract. This is how the world should be. And I'm going to live it according to how it should be, not how it is. That's where I find a lot of people. This is why they get frustrated. Why they radicalize is because you get this made up, abstract idea of how the world is supposed to be, and it's always utopian and it's always perfect, and you're always the hero in that story, by the way. So you see, we create this fake understanding of of life. And then when we don't see it around us, we get upset. Yeah. And so by the time 9/11 happened, I was just like, what is this like this is this Islam? That's what I thought. Yeah. You know, and and I just realized that, you know what? I don't know enough of what my religion at that time and so what I did is I said, you know what? I'm going to go and study Arabic and Islamic studies and actually study the religion because I don't like this. And I want to know where this comes from and if and if this is Islam, that I don't want to be a part of it.
[00:22:39:00] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah.
[00:22:39:19] Mubin Shaikh: And so and so I would spend the next two years after nine, 11 in Syria. This was ten years before the war. So it wasn't so crazy to go to Syria to study Arabic. But I spent two years there. I spent, I studied Arabic and Islamic studies and came to realize that these extremist interpretations were completely against the religion, and then came back to Canada. And so began my next adventure.
[00:23:06:18] Wilk Wilkinson: That is awesome. That is awesome. And and congratulations for that. I mean, I don't know that congratulations is the right word Mubin, but but I think about that and I think about so many of the so many of the parallels to, what you're saying right now to, to what is happening in, in, let's say, United States politics, right now and, and, and, and all the ugly things that are happening with, with people and their beliefs and, and and how the thing that strikes me, I think the most about what you're saying there is, is that utopian view of how things are supposed to be versus how things actually are and what things actually are. And and we can live, we can live our lives chasing some kind of utopian dream of of how things should be and allow all these things that are outside of our control to enrage us and make us angry and radicalize us. Because, again, like you said, anybody can be radicalized. Anybody. It doesn't matter whether you're Muslim, whether you're Christian, whether you're Jewish, whether you're agnostic, atheist, whatever. It does not matter when the ingredients are there to make that cake and the environment is there to support the growth of whatever that is, it's going to happen. And we again, like so many of the things that I say on this podcast, is we cannot allow things that are outside of our control to ultimately define who we are and turn us into something that we're not. And I want people to really take that away. So. So with that, you study in Syria, you become deradicalized. I mean, it's been a it's been a slope. You become deradicalized, largely a part, you know, largely in part due to the genesis of becoming married and and realizing that that there's a better life in the real world than in this, this utopian, which it's it's so weird for me to say, you know, kind of this utopian.
[00:25:27:22] Mubin Shaikh: Yeah. It's like it's based on hate.
[00:25:30:04] Wilk Wilkinson: You know, it's.
[00:25:30:16] Mubin Shaikh: Pie in the sky versus steak on my plate.
[00:25:33:07] Wilk Wilkinson: Right? Right. Pie in the sky versus take on the plate. That's that's an amazing, way to put it. That is awesome. So. Okay. So then, okay, so now you are you become this almost spy guy, right? And I'm probably not almost spy guy. You were a spy guy. Yeah. Who who is who is now actually continuing to interact with people that that I mean by rights, we're we're, you know, mentors, allies in this life that you used to live in. But now you're actually taking that information and developing cases against, against these people. Did that, did that present some kind? I mean, it's a weird paradox that I don't know.
[00:26:22:16] Mubin Shaikh: The moral dilemma.
[00:26:24:06] Wilk Wilkinson: Moral dilemma. There you go. Yeah. That, that, that a lot of people might not be able to handle. So what was that like for you?
[00:26:32:10] Mubin Shaikh: Yeah. So when I, when I returned back, from Syria in 2004, I get back and I'm reading the newspaper in the first week that I got back, the paper has announced the arrest of the first Canadian, under the newly minted anti-terrorism act. So this individual was arrested in connection with the 2004 London fertilizer bomb plot. This guy went to the same floor and school as I went to as a kid. In fact, he used to sit to the left of me in the school. Okay, so I saw a reference to the Canadian Security Intelligence Service in that news article. And if you can imagine kids, once upon a time we had these things called Phonebooks where everybody's names, addresses, phone numbers were publicly available. So in the back of this phone book was the government listings. I found the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, and I called them up and I said, hey, I know this guy like this must be a mistake. And they said to me, look, it's no mistake. It's out of our hands. It's in the courts now. But the fact that you're calling us about him, we want to come and chat with you. Surprise! So they came and talked to me. I told them my life story, and they basically put to me the prospect of working with them as an undercover and basically, quote, tell us who were the bad guys and you tell us where the good guys and the bad guys, right? Is it simple as that? And so I, with this newfound appreciation for the rights that we have in the West, I was like, yeah, absolutely. Like, where do I sign up? And so, so I began, undercover operations, infiltration operations. And many of the people that I interacted with were, of course, people that I did know from before. It's not like I went back into the group that I used to be with, because when I left, a lot of people thought I was escalating my radical, my extremism. They thought I was going to go over and join some foreign conflict. They didn't realize the changes of heart that I had had after 9/11. So when I came back, they were just like, oh man, this guy just got back from Syria. Who knows what he did over there? Don't talk about it. Don't even ask him. And so I just played on that, right? They assumed that I had been doing all this stuff, so I let them assume that. And then that brought me into, you know, because I had the street credibility that was needed. I could go into any, any group, any leader that they had as a target. Either I knew him or I knew the person next to him. Right. And so, so we did online stuff on the ground stuff. And then in 2006, eventually what ended up happening is I traversed over to the federal police, to to work and investigation on that side and in, in the way that things work here in the police investigation, it goes to court, which means your identity is going to be exposed in court. And it was really weird because you asked about moral dilemmas. And there were a number of dilemmas, right? It wasn't just, hey, like, you're basically spying on your own people. And it was like, I got over that real quick because these people are criminals. These people are plotting, you know, for those who are plotting, you know, terrorist attacks or things like that, like, I'm going to stop them, you know, it's I feel and I believe it's my duty as a muslim to to stop anyone. It doesn't matter if they're Muslim or not. Right. Keeping the public safe. And this is, you know, a basic thing, basic concept of belief. So, these guys were plotting catastrophic terrorist attacks, and so it was a sting operation. I was the undercover inserted into the group. They all got caught. And then, and then there was four years of court and took place after that. And so night court experience is really what built me, I think, like, yes, I had those skills, but then it was all tested in court. And so again, back to moral dilemma. Like, my God, like, I mean, being cross-examined and, you know, five legal hearings over four years, the level of scrutiny that I was put under. And it was weird because it validated a lot of the things that I did and why I did what I did, because I knew that I have to I will have to answer for what I'm doing right now. Yeah. And this is only a conversation that's happening with me in my own head. Okay. Right. And so later on, when it did come out, you know, everything got validated and, yeah. And that's basically so that was the Undercover years 2010. I was done. I got on to social media, kind of like the Muslim counterterrorism guy. So my nickname is the Muslim James Bond. And I'll take it. I'll take it. And then in 2010, right, I got online 2011, the war in Syria kicked off. By 2012. I'm seeing the rise of ISIS in real time. Now. I have some sock puppet accounts. I'm I'm on in the networks. I've already started to infiltrate what later become ISIS networks. And the State Department sees what I'm doing, and they reach out to me and they're like, hey, can you come to the U.S. and help us, you know, do some of this stuff? And so from 2012 to really 2020, when Covid hit, I was just eyebrow deep in anti-ISIS activities for coalition special operations forces. So I did a lot of pre-deployment training. I was in Germany all the time, a couple of Middle Eastern countries here and there, and then just went right back into it as like an independent, over those years. And so this is where the deradicalization stuff starts to come around, because in 2014, when ISIS declared a so-called caliphate, you had people who were starting to come back from those places. And then this is when the whole so-called CVE thing was born, right? At countering violent extremism. What do we do with these people? How do we radicalize them, and so on. And so this is where I was able to step up, and I'm using my personal radicalization experience, my de-radicalisation experience, my operational experience, which is tested in court. And now I'm and then the time that I spent online basically tracking, trolling and even debating a lot of these al-Qaida and ISIS guys that were all over the internet at that time.
[00:32:58:00] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, that is so fascinating. Good times. And yeah. Well, yeah, definitely. Definitely not a your typical, your typical life experience that, that people would, would be able to relate to. But it's, it's amazing how this, this thing, you know, over the years progressed and, and, went from, from being a somebody who could, who would, who is radicalized and so easily could have gone down that path Mubin of, of, of being one of those the violent jihadist, I guess that the people are, you know, familiar with and, and the horror that comes along with that. But but your path, you know, and thank God for it went, within a different way and, and, and now you, you know, got a wonderful family and, and children and, and you've done, you know, monumental things for humanity in the sense that, that, you know, you've brought a lot of these people to justice and, and done, done these incredible things. One thing I want to touch on real quick, you know, you made that that, the joke about the, you know, being the the Muslim James Bond, but people who are who are in Washington, DC at the Spy Museum can actually, see, a display that's that's based upon you and your experiences. So, so talk about that real quick. And then as we round out our time here, which our time is, is it has gone so fast here and there's so much more that we could get into. But I want to I really want you to talk about your work with, Parents for Peace Now and and what you're doing now, using your experiences and your, you know, your life experiences to to help counter violent extremism. With Parents for Peace. Talk briefly about the, the display at the Spy Museum in Washington, DC. And then, and then, you know, round out our last couple minutes talking to, the listeners about, Parents for Peace and what you're doing over there.
[00:35:08:08] Mubin Shaikh: Maybe it's a little so. Well, I'll just put my phone up to the screen so you can kind of see. So, so there's the display. It's got my. It's got, a robe you can see on the, on the back there, there's robe and boots, and then there's a placard there that says basically, this is the robe and boots that Mubin Shaikh wore when he infiltrated the Toronto 18, working undercover for, for CSIs. Intelligence service. So I was really honored, that they reached out to me and, and said, hey, we want to put, we want to make a permanent exhibit on you in the museum. And that was a weird feeling, let me tell you, because it's like, museum is like, does that mean I'm supposed to be dead or something? Like it? Who goes into a museum? You know, so it was it was, I was really honored by that. I mean, the museum now, it's a new museum. It's got like, five stories, at lunch on Plaza, in DC. There. Really? You should check it out. Anyone that's interested in the topic, it's got really cool stuff related to espionage, Cold War stuff, actual James Bond stuff. And I think I am the last exhibit that you see before you go to the exit door. But again, you know, it's, the whole point is that again, it's I think it's to that particular section is preventing terror. And and right next to it, it's like, you know, terrorism where we play, where we work, where we worship, you know, I mean, and it kind of illustrates the, the threats, unfortunately, that, you know, that these people pose. So, now with Parents for Peace, you know, Parents for Peace, is an organization that was founded by concerned loved ones because their kids got radicalized. Right? It actually started with an African American, guy, you know, whose kid radicalized, went to Yemen and came back and committed a Drive-By shooting at a military recruiting center, killing one service member and, critically injuring the second. He's now serving a life sentence. And the parents, I mean, the father was like, how how do I even reach out to, like, to talk to someone about this? And so that's what Parents for Peace is born. Now, we, you know, we we tackle ideologies from across the board. We don't fixate on one or the other. We're totally nonpartisan, apolitical. We do that deliberately because, you know, the politics it radicalize is by itself. And and I think what it does is it distracts people from, like, the core issues, because you're not going to solve, you know, political problems through politics. It's just not how it's. Right. So, so I one of the big things that we, you know, we really promote is like, especially for those who are believers, whatever your religious prescription is, you might be a nonbeliever. You know, you will find that in that world, the radicalization, it it hits everyone the same, at the end of the day. And this what I want your listeners to understand, like for parents especially, it's a, you know, everybody's busy, you know, I mean, it's it's it's it's you have both parents. They might they're probably both working jobs all the time because the cost of living and expenses and sending kids to school and shoes and this and car insurance and everything adds up. And so how much time do parents have with their kids? And the kids are on, you know, screen all day, every day? I mean, they're they're learning from us, right? And now and if you think about it, young kids, their brains are physically still developing. Yeah. And when we are now blasting into their brains at very high speeds with very dense information, it's like lobbing bricks onto your brain. Yeah. And so it overwhelms them. And that's I, that's my theory as to why kids are just becoming overwhelmed by some of this stuff. Yeah, right. Somebody says something wrong to them. They're going to hang themselves in their room.
[00:39:02:21] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah.
[00:39:03:15] Mubin Shaikh: And then you, the hard working parent, you don't want to come in and and find that. Right. So so what we found, you know, is that for for parents to be more informed that these are the things you should look for, be more involved in your kid's life. You're not going to you can't police them all the time. You can't helicopter over them. You're not around them all the time. All you can do is give them values and skills that will train them so that when they do go out into that real world, they know how to deal with stuff. And it's a real big problem. Like and I strongly encourage parents, I mean, like, I'm, I just I turned 50 again. I've recently been kind of because it's such a milestone and I'm looking back at my life and I'm looking at the way that I raised my kids and the way that my kids, they come to me with stuff, you know, it's it's always an open conversation. You are not going to lecture your kids out of anything. I mean, I remember how I was when I was 17, 18. There's nothing you you were you were going to tell me, okay, I knew everything, right? As teenagers don't as we know as well.
[00:40:04:19] Wilk Wilkinson: And I'm very familiar. I mean, we got,
[00:40:06:11] Mubin Shaikh: We're very much, Yeah. So you got to be a little trying to be chill. You have to be informed. And this is what Parents for Peace does. And so we. And just last point, we we get cases like the FBI might even refer a case to us. They might give our a card to the family, especially if it's a juvenile because they're not as keen on prosecuting juveniles, especially when they're like 1415. Yeah. But once you start getting closer to 18, 16, 17, 18, you're probably going to get charged a teachers call on his parents call us, lawyers, especially if their clients have been arrested and they're in custody. Right. And it's just sad. I see, like these young kids, you get caught up in this stuff and, you know, it's like you want to kind of, you know, lecture them in one way, but you got to understand, like when you were 16, right? So I'm dealing with a kid who is 16 years old, he got arrested in a terrorism plot, and kid thinks he knows everything. Right. And I'm just laughing it off all the time and chuckling and smiling. And he's just like, why are you laughing this off and chuckling and smiling? And I keep telling you I was like, because like, I see me when I was 16 and I'm basically talking to my younger self, you know, and, and I use that specifically to show them that I'm basically the ghost of your future. Yeah. Coming to tell you, hey, this and the other. So so that's the work we do with Parents for Peace. All ideologies across the board. A lot of mostly juveniles and if there's one thing for any kid that's listening or a parent who might want to convey to their kids, kids, you don't know who you're talking to on line, you might think it's your buddy from California or whatever. Chances are it's an undercover FBI agent or somebody like that, law enforcement or something, because they're out there looking for people up to no good. Yeah. And so you find these kids who get in these platforms, it's anonymous people. You don't know who you're talking to. You don't hear them, you don't see them. It's just text based on the screen or a messaging app or whatever. And like and they just they give everything to this anonymous account and they'll reveal everything about their plans or this or that hack. Here's some nudes, too. While we're at it. And then and then things go down, you know, in a downward spiral from there, especially if it's a bad actor. So. So really be smart, be smarter about what you're saying and doing online. That'll save you a lot of problems.
[00:42:32:09] Wilk Wilkinson: Well, the internet's an ugly place Mubin you and I both know that. And the, I do love the fact that Parents for Peace is is trying to, you know, really be that kind of non-criminal intervention, that, that step that, that parents can take to try and, try and turn things around before it's too late. I, I know not every story is like yours. Where where people come to that realization on their own. So it does take, it does take the right kind of mentorship and the right kind of people. But but the big thing, I want everybody to take away from this conversation, is, is that there is there's there's always options out there for a better way. And, it takes a lot of courage to do what what you did. But. And not everybody can do what you did. But courageous citizenship, which is a big thing that we're we're talking about, Braver Angels. Right now, a big push in courageous citizenship is the just the idea, to act instead of react. Don't wait till it's too late. Don't react. Don't simply react to those things that that are outside of your control, but act in a proper way. And take control of your life. Reclaim your agency, where you think you might not have agency. So Mubin shake. This has been an incredible conversation. The stuff that you've done, is, is just just a blessing to the world. And I appreciate you so much. I look forward to more in the future. And, we'll make sure that that picture that you, you showed on here, is in the show notes for this episode. And, I just encourage anybody to, to check out, and they can find out more about that and how they can get, you know, how they can get more about you and Parents for Peace in the show notes for this episode. Thank you. Mubin right.
[00:44:19:18] Mubin Shaikh: Right on. Thank you. Thank you, two, for what you do, brother. And God bless you and yours. And, the same to the audience watching. Thank you very much for having me.
[00:44:29:19] Wilk Wilkinson: Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate the Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together, so please take a moment to visit BraverAngels.org and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divides. This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friends, I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
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