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Kelsey Blahnik, LCSW-S, has spent years working with clients across the full political spectrum—people from red places, blue places, and everywhere between. What she noticed, especially during the pandemic, is that most of us default to one of two extremes when conflict shows up: we go passive and swallow it, or we go aggressive and let it explode. Neither one actually solves anything, and both quietly wear down relationships over time.
Her book, The And Way: Assertive Peacemaking in a Divided World, is built around a third option—assertive peacemaking. It's not about avoiding hard topics. It's about learning to sit in the discomfort of a real conversation long enough to actually get somewhere with it.
Kelsey Blahnik, LCSW-S, is a therapist and the founder of The And Way Therapy Group, a virtual practice serving clients in Texas and Florida. She's the author of The And Way: Assertive Peacemaking in a Divided World and the creator of The And Way™ model for navigating conflict and building psychological flexibility.
Website: theandwaypress.com
Instagram: @theandway
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[00:00:00:00] Wilk Wilkinson: Picture an Instant Pot. It's got one job besides cooking. Of course. Letting off steam without blowing up in your face. My guest today says most of us never learned to do that in our relationships. We just hold it until we explode. Or we go quiet and let it eat at us. Kelsey Blahnik has spent her career teaching people another way. The and we. Welcome back, my friend, to the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross partisan organization working toward civic renewal, this podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ. Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can derate the hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast, share it with a friend and visit Braver Angels to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partisan divide. Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it. Kelsey Blahnik is a therapist and social worker who's lived all over the map. Literally red places, blue places, purple places. And she found good people everywhere she landed. That's not naive optimism. It's years of sitting with clients from every political conviction, listening to what actually drives them. Then the pandemic hit and the divide she navigated professionally started showing up in her personal life. So she wrote it down. The book is called The and Way Assertive Peacemaking in a Divided World, and it's built on an idea I hadn't heard framed quite this way before. That peace doesn't mean an absence of conflict. It means learning to have the hard conversation instead of avoiding it. Kelsey's also been part of the Braver Angels world since 2019. So she gets exactly what we're trying to do here. Today, we're talking about the real difference between being assertive and being aggressive. Why bottling things up eventually costs you the relationship, and how looking at yourself with a little more compassion might be the first step towards looking at everyone else that way to let's get into it with my friend Kelsey Blahnik. Here we go. Kelsey Blahnik, welcome to the Derate the Hate podcast. It's great to see you today.
[00:03:38:08] Kelsey Blahnik: It's great to see you.
[00:03:40:07] Wilk Wilkinson: I'm looking forward to hearing about this book. You would you'd reached out to us here at Bravery Angels to to talk a little bit about this book. And then you sent me the book and, and I've been looking at it a bit and very excited. So the book is The And Way, Assertive Peacemaking in a Divided World. And Kelsey, my first question is, is, is, you know, what in your story? How did you come to the point where you're like, I need to write this book.
[00:04:10:13] Kelsey Blahnik: I have moved all over the country, and I've lived in red places and predominantly blue places in purple places, and I found good people in all of those places. And so I've always known and loved people on the political, on all parts of the political spectrum, and have been serving as a social worker with a lot of different people, with a lot of different convictions. And because of all those unique relationships I was especially convicted in during the pandemic by how divided things continue to feel and how uncomfortable that was to navigate in my personal and professional life. And so I wrote this book for to really teach people some skills that allowed me to still maintain relationships professionally and personally with folks that had held different convictions than me. And I wanted it for my kids and for my clients and anybody who is able to benefit from it.
[00:05:09:02] Wilk Wilkinson: So, so the social work is is what I guess. the social work and having and dealing with all the different people and seeing all the, well, like you said, you know, you know, people on the on the blue side of the spectrum, the red side of the spectrum, everywhere on all points in between and and how? How they relate to each other and then how you have to relate to them as a as a social worker. What is when I start thinking about peacemaking and how we do this and this is, this is the and way thing that I'm, I'm trying to to get here, Kelsey and is what does assertive peacemaking mean. I've never heard it put that way. So I'm trying to trying to get my mind around, you know, the social work part and how assertive peacemaking kind of comes into that.
[00:06:08:09] Kelsey Blahnik: So peacemaking to me and being a sort of is finding a place where we can actually have uncomfortable conversations and address things head on, rather than avoiding the tough topics and looking at peace from an absence of conflict point of view, I look at our need for being more assertive, not just on politics, but across the board, that if we could operate in a more assertive way with one another throughout our daily lives, and there wouldn't be so much less left to passive aggressiveness, and there wouldn't be so much left to make assumptions about one another, that we would have so much more clarity to move through the world with. And we could be curious with one another and actually get real answers from each other, too.
[00:06:50:23] Wilk Wilkinson: And I think that's important because, you know, real life is just not absent of conflict, right? And and that's one of the things that that always strikes me as odd when people start talking about the bridge building space or whatever, and they've just never been in it and, and they're like, oh, you guys are just trying to avoid all conflict and, and make everybody, you know, bring together people in these kumbaya moments and things like that. And I said, you know, I'm like, no, that's that's completely opposite of of what we we do. You know, it's not about avoiding conflict, but it's about how do we better, better navigate the conflict, better work through our issues together. I think, I mean, what you just said there is, I think hugely important is, is it leaves less to that kind of passive aggressive thing. Right? And I mean, when people feel like they're not really allowed to get in there, it kind of makes them on rare.
[00:07:56:23] Kelsey Blahnik: Absolutely. I talk often about that's being like Instant Pot where if you're full of steam and all this resentment or anger that if you just try and take the lid off and you just all of a sudden talk about something uncomfortable, the likelihood of the explosion is high because you're just going to kind of take that pendulum swing to the other end. If you're passive over and over and over and holding it all and holding it all in, and the second unleash, it's going to feel like an explosion. I'm hoping to get to the place where. And I feel like, personally, I've gotten more careful about trying to vent some of that steam over time. So it's not an explosion, and that venting allows me to feel more connected to people. That's intimacy.
[00:08:40:12] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, that's a great analogy. The Instant Pot, I think that's the most used appliance that we have in our kitchen. And and it's a very good thing it has that little lock safety function on it. Right. Because I mean, what you're saying, I just thinking about different ways that this analogy plays out because, I mean, it's hugely important, like you said, I mean, any, any receptacle, if you get too much steam, if you're not letting it off in the right way, it's going to explode. And, I think what I hear you saying is, if you're not not doing this in the right way. And I think this is what, becomes important, you know, with organizations like the one I work for, Braver Angels and the work you're doing with the and we therapy and things like that. You provide like this structured space and things are things are set up to work in the right way so that, you know, it's not just a, this big combustion chamber that's going to to blow apart when it finally reaches that tipping point. Right. But but it works in a way that, you know, much like an Instant Pot has that little safety mechanism. And then the little valve where you release the steam and, and everything else, the structures that we operate in bring people together that might otherwise just tear each other apart in, in an unstructured way. But we provide a, a space in which people can almost say, okay, I'm here, I've got this. That's completely different. I'm here, I've got this. That's completely different. If we come together in a structured way, we can we can probably do something together in this structure that we could never do in and unstructured way.
[00:10:30:08] Kelsey Blahnik: Yes, absolutely. That's why I've always loved what Braver Angels is doing. I've been engaging in workshops since 2019 and. Yeah, I'm such a fan of the work you guys do because it is all about making this conflict more productive and effective, rather than thinking of how can we keep the lid on tighter, we're just looking at ways of venting in a productive way.
[00:10:52:18] Wilk Wilkinson: So tell me then about how this has has played out for you, Kelsey. And in the social workspace and and the and way what, what what would you say is, is different about what you're doing. Than what your, your, you know, typical everyday social worker in, throughout the space talk to me about that.
[00:11:16:10] Kelsey Blahnik: Yes, exactly. So in terms of relationships, when I'm working with couples or when I'm working with individuals, and they're in all these relationships and I'm supporting them as they're navigating how they're going to handle those conflicts. One thing that's, I think, a little different than what the general therapy speak around conflict is that I'm not encouraging folks to siphon off and isolate and use that that overly used term boundaries to say, I need to boundary myself, protect my peace to such an extreme where it's all individualistic and I don't think we need to go to the extreme where there's no sense of boundaries and, you know, just throwing yourself into relationships and putting up with anything that the other person does, either there's this, there's this give and take of requesting, you know, putting out requests in a relationship for what you you want the other person to know that you're going to need in order to feel safe and comfortable staying in relationship or having a deeper and deeper relationship. And then there's also boundaries around when somebody doesn't meet that request, how far back you're going to pull, or what degree of relationship you really want to have, how much time you really want to spend with that person, that it doesn't have to be an all or nothing in relationships where either best, best friends or or we spend every every week together or we are cutting them out of our lives altogether. So that's a big part of that on a relational standpoint. And then I work primarily with OCD and trauma. And so I'm in the same way. I'm just all about building psychological flexibility. That's my passion. That's what I believe is going to be a major way of us trying to confront violence and confront all this division is having more flexibility in the way that we're not only looking at other people, how we're looking at ourselves like, I'm I'm a human being in progress. I've got all these competing impulses within me. And so my book is mostly about how to the first, more than half is about that internal work of how do I look at myself with compassion, knowing I have all these competing impulses? I'm not all one way. I'm not maybe all red or all blue either. I've got all these competing impulses within me. Then it allows me to have more of that compassion when I'm looking outward at other people.
[00:13:30:09] Yeah.:
[00:13:31:12] Wilk Wilkinson: And this is this is hugely important. And I'm glad you brought that up because this is well, I'm going to say it's very much part of my story, but it's, it's it's also part of, you know, we all have stories, right? I mean, the power of storytelling is, is a huge part of thing. But recognizing your own story and then working through your own issues, like you said, you work with trauma survivors and people who, OCD, trauma survivors, veterans, folks like that that have that have all seen these things. But if we want to, if we want to be better for the world and present a positive impact on the world, a lot of times we have to go back to our own story and start working through those things, because we cannot be a light for the world if our own light is is not shining bright, right? I mean, I think I think that's how I wanted to say that, but but the reality is, is like I use my own story, Kelsey. And you can tell me if this is this is what I heard you saying. I use a lot of my own story. Like I talk about all my anger and animus and things growing up and how I went on this personal mindset journey because I knew I couldn't be the right person for the world that I lived in without first working on me and and overcoming a lot of the things that that I've experienced over the course of my life. Is that kind of what you're talking about here? And in terms of.
[00:15:09:18] You know.:
[00:15:10:08] Wilk Wilkinson: Working with people and helping them work through their past so that they can get to a brighter future.
[00:15:17:19] Kelsey Blahnik: Yes. I think a lot of conflict resolution models and and books and talks focus a lot on. Here are the strategies you can use when you're in that conflict. And I in my book and my work is a lot about how can you find that regulation internally so that when you approach the conflict, you're prepared to, in your self-aware enough to be able to engage in a more productive way, just getting thrown in there, it can it can very easily activate these protective instincts in you to get aggressive or to shut down, to pull back and knowing more about yourself and and sometimes why that's there, but also how you want to, you know, present in the world, like you said, that you've made this journey toward wanting to be a light for you. That's the that's the value that you're after is wanting to be a light in the world, then that that allows you to show up in a way that's going to be way more productive, that's going to allow you to vent instead of explode.
[00:16:18:02] Yeah. Oh, absolutely.:
[00:16:19:14] Wilk Wilkinson: Absolutely. I mean, there I mean, I've met so many people in my my journey, Kelsey. And I'm sure you have too who who you're like, this person has so much to give and so much greatness there. If it wasn't just for you know, that that temper. That's that's what it was in my case is I just I just had this horrible temper. But, if it wasn't for that, that temper or that that passive aggressive nature, the way that they're interacting with people, you know, different things. And it's like, boy, I'd love to be able to help, all these people find find that same thing. I mean, I, you know, for me, it was, you know, I described it the other day, Kelsey, as, looking back on it now, it was kind of like this prison that I had put myself in because of all the ugliness of my past and and allowing things that I had no control over to, to kind of control me. And I'm sure you've seen it, too. And I think we've all seen people that we we really care about that, you know, they, they, they, they just allow things outside of their control, things from their past to, to kind of dictate their future. And it's like, I want to just help them unlock those chains that they're stuck in.
[00:17:39:16] Kelsey Blahnik: Yes, yes. And a big part of psychological flexibility is not matching the way things have been, is the way things have to be. Being able to find more options, brainstorm and be more flexible to consider the way things have been isn't necessarily the way things are going to go. Something new can happen and that goes with conflict, you know, expecting, oh, I already know how she's going to take it if I bring that topic up with her anticipating that allows us to shut down and maybe not venture into curious territory. And so whenever we anticipate that something could go differently than it did before, like, I can consider myself a human being in progress. It's messy and never changing. If I can look at other people that way too, then I'm going to be more willing to at least attempt hard conversations.
[00:18:27:23] Wilk Wilkinson: That's right. This. Goes back to the assertive, you know, peacemaking versus kind of passive peacemaking is is, you know, how do. We. How do we unlock that for people. How do we I'm sure you can give me an example. Of. Somebody or a story of how you've been able to see that. Moment in somebody that when you, when you take them from that, that I guess passive peacemaking to assertive peacemaking and and how. That. How that prompts or elicits that curiosity within a person.
[00:19:03:16] Kelsey Blahnik: Yes. Yes. Has I do think the idea of being assertive is this space in between the extremes of passive and aggressive like way on opposite ends, as I'm holding my hands out in opposite sides of the room? I think there's a lot of emphasis on trying, getting trying to get aggressive, quieter, or kind of getting aggressive, more assertive. And there's all these keyboard warriors out there online that seem really loud, those buildings folks. And sometimes we think they're the majority when they're just allowed it. I am I have my work is speaking to both ends, but I am really emphasizing on that passive side. How can you know you amplify your voice so that we know those are just some of the loudest voices. Those aren't the only voices out there. There are a lot of people that are holding convictions and just not speaking up about them. And so some of the ways that I encourage people to go from a passive to a more assertive and clear stance is first focusing on being able to identify what they want. I think a lot of times people aren't expressing because they've not actually practiced identifying that within themselves first. And so practicing not just how I feel. I think we've gotten a lot better at that culturally about putting out a complaint. Even I don't like that and instead focusing on requests. Here's what I do want. And practicing that skill is really critical in a relationship. Being able to say, you know, whenever you bring up this topic, I want us to be able to have this conversation in a more, you know, at this volume, or I would really love for us to have this conversation for a certain period of time. And then could we spend the rest of the day, you know, just having our Thanksgiving dinner or whatever? You know what, being able to be able to set some sort of limits and boundaries to the the way that you want the dynamic to flow has to come from even knowing what you want out of it. And a lot of times people just know I don't like this, but they don't know what they're actually looking for in a relationship. Being able to be able to identify it and then express it is what we practice.
[00:21:08:08] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, I think that's hugely important, whether it be individual or movement in general. It's if when you focus constantly on what you don't want or what you don't like it, it's it's almost like it's doomed to fail. But but if you can talk about what you are for and where you want to get to, I think you have a much, much greater likelihood of success because that's that's hugely important. Another thing that you mentioned there, Kelsey, that I want to step back to a little bit because, I mean, I don't I don't know if this is as maybe as prevalent as I think it might be, but I think there are a lot of people right now that that don't understand the difference between aggressiveness and assertiveness, because I think that's I think that's a big point that I want to key on here, because aggressiveness and assertiveness, very two very different things in my book. And when people confuse the two they are it's like shooting yourself in the foot. Right. You think you're being assertive, but you're actually being aggressive. And when you are aggressive, especially in terms of, Having a conversation. With somebody you disagree with, you know, or, or you're trying to work through some type of conflict. Assertiveness, I think is good aggressiveness. Very bad. People's ears slammed shut. Not so good. Talk to me about that dynamic because there's there's something there that is very, very important. And I want to key on it.
[00:22:41:03] Kelsey Blahnik: Yes, absolutely. The difference can show up very differently between every individual and every cultural context. So what can come across is aggressive to one person, can be experienced by somebody else very differently or say, generally speaking, an increase in volume, the tone that's being used, the you you use, the pointing, their gesture, you know, hand gestures and posture that can all influence a more aggressive state. And when I'm thinking of assertive, it's all about being clear. And I come back to those two critical things that I feel I want. So there's a vulnerability to it. It's not just what you should do that goes into aggressive. This is in communicating what I feel and what I want. And I'm doing it clearly as as often as possible, trying to keep that that tone more respectful and engaged. And I do want to give the caveat. I don't think that a sort of communication is the only allowed or appropriate form at all times. I think there are circumstances where being passive is it's a survival mechanism, or, you know, you're not going to respond the same way to your boss about politics that you do to your parent, or that aggression may feel necessary as a survival tactic to protect yourself or protect someone. It's when we go to those two extremes and we live in them, that ends up causing a dangerous pattern and unhealthy relationships in the long term.
[00:24:10:18] Wilk Wilkinson: Hugely important point. Yeah, hugely important point. And I like the way you put it, Kelsey, when that's where we decide to live, when that becomes the habit instead of I mean, I think we need to adapt our, our conversation styles, especially when it comes to, you know, conflict resolution and working through working through our differences with people. I think we need to adapt our communication style with people. I mean, some people are just going to respond better and share more with somebody who's who's a little more passive, somebody, you know. And yes, there are going to be times when it, you know, when when that survival instinct of, of being aggressive or a little more aggressive is going to be important. But living there in either one of those spaces, I think is, is problematic. and I think it's also a skill, Kelsey, to, to start to learn as a communicator where to be and what people, are going to respond best to and what people are going to feel the most comfortable in sharing with, or, you know, what kind of communication style and what kind of person they think you are as the receiver of the communication they're trying to put out there. I think it's very important that we learn to, to read people. A friend of mine named Jennifer Furlong, she would would talk about the platinum rule. it's treat people as they wish to be treated, So I think when we start to think about our communication styles I think what you're saying is absolutely right. You can't just live in one space. You can't just pigeonhole yourself to one style, talk a little bit more about that. For me.
[00:25:55:09] Kelsey Blahnik: The way that in The And Way model I use this all the time is people oftentimes identify themselves with the style that they're most comfortable with or with the style that they think they're known for. So people saying things like, I'm a people pleaser or, you know, she's a jerk or she's aggressive, you know, just kind of labeling others and labeling ourselves. It pigeonholes us into that. That's the place we're living in. And the And Way practice is being able to put a behavior and another behavior like, I've got these two competing impulses going on. So I'm an a sort of person. And there are times that I get activated, I shut down, and I'm not even sure how to respond with this particular person in my family, or I'm a I'm a sort of person. I'm a peacemaker. And there are times when I don't even catch a passive aggressive comment until later on. And then I, you know, real in about it. A little bum that I missed out on, on an opportunity to communicate instead of just I'm a people pleaser. There's a part of me that wants to people, please, I've done that plenty of times. And there's another part of me that's been practicing, requesting, identifying what I want and working toward that. They're trying to break down some of those labels that we even put on ourselves into these competing impulses or these patterns that that can ebb and flow instead of being fixed and stuck.
[00:27:19:16] Wilk Wilkinson: I mean, I just think there's some incredible things. I mean, the style that you're talking about, Kelsey, is, is, is just wonderful in terms of, in how we communicate, especially how we communicate with people we disagree with and working through. And this is this, this looks to me just to be another incredible model of of how people can, can learn how to communicate better across different. I mean, one of the biggest things that that we are missing in society today, at least in my opinion, is the ability, the ability to, to to disagree effectively and work through our differences and have the right kind of dialog that I mean, one of the things that Braver angels we're talking so much about today's is courageous citizenship. And that's it's it takes a lot of courage to work through and, you know, convene, come together, solve problems together with people that we know we disagree with. So when we think about that, when we think about the whole idea of of the kind of courage that it takes to to engage across difference. Kelsey, what what are the biggest, you know, one of the what, say, the biggest 1 or 2 things that that, you know, people are going to take away from this book the and way and say, you know what, after I've read this book, I can do this thing, I can work across differences. I'm going to use this tool And I am going to make a difference.
[00:28:53:15] Kelsey Blahnik: What I hope is that people will be able to see these courageous conversations and courageous interactions, even even the courageous moment of looking at oneself with compassion as opportunities for growth, and as worth it because of the depth that you get in relationship, the peace that you get internally, that those that taking that uncomfortable step is going to be worth it because of the the outcome that it provides on a societal level, on a relational interpersonal level and on an internal level. And I think that's a lot of times folks are not sure if they're ready to commit to that, because they're not sure if if it's going to if that investment, it's a lot of time and energy to operate this way. It's not it's not easy. And so I think that courage is the perfect word you're using to describe that. It's not a it's not a passive thing that just comes to be. I hope that people see that out of the discomfort comes growth. And then I hope that folks really practice being able to look at themselves as more than one thing, more than one label, and be able to look at other people with that same capacity. And the more that that's practice back and forth, the more flexibility we're gaining. I think the more will be open to seeing each other is more than just a red or blue. You know that there's somebody who's identifies this way politically. And I saw that time that they brought a casserole to the neighbor over there that was that was struggling. You know, I, I had my I had this family member that he seemed so mean. Instead of being like, oh, he's just a jerk, okay. He was a jerk over here. And then remember that other time he gave me an Easy Bake oven for Christmas? That was really, you know, these there are these complexities within each person. Just like I can see that within myself. I sometimes have an impulse to be really judgmental. And I have the impulse to be really compassionate. I'm not one or the other.
[00:30:56:04] Wilk Wilkinson: Oh, that's absolutely right. That's such an important point, Kelsey. And yeah, we we as human beings were very complex, and we are much more than those little snapshots in time that, you know, we it's that is that is a great, great thing. And I would love for people to take that away as well because we are we are complex. We all deserve a little bit of grace, and we don't want to be judged by the the worst moments, but there are a lot more moments that we can be judged by and and not only other people, but ourselves. And I'm glad you brought that up, because we have to have compassion for ourselves. We have to be thinking about. we. Don't want people to judge us by our worst moments, and we are not going to judge others by their worst moments. People have a lot more to offer than just those snapshots in time. Kelsey Blahnik this has been a great conversation. I want people to make sure they check out the book, The And Way: Assertive Peacemaking in a Divided World. I got the book right here I love it They can find it at the and press. Is that right.
[00:32:00:11] Kelsey Blahnik: That's right. And you can also find me on Instagram at the end way if you want to follow along as well.
[00:32:07:02] Wilk Wilkinson: I'm so grateful for you, Kelsey. Thank you so much for joining me and we will do it again.
[00:32:11:18] Kelsey Blahnik: Thank you so much. Looking forward to it.
[00:32:14:20] Wilk Wilkinson: Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate The Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together. So please take a moment to visit Braver Angels and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divide. This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friend. I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
Transcript is AI generated and may contain errors [00:00:00:00] Wilk Wilkinson: Picture an Instant Pot. It's got one job besides cooking. Of course. Letting off steam without blowing up in your face.
My guest today says most of us never learned to do that in our relationships. We just hold it until we explode. Or we go quiet and let it eat at us. Kelsey Blahnik has spent her career teaching people another way.
The and we. Welcome back, my friend, to the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross partisan organization working toward civic renewal, this podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree.
Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ. Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can derate the hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast, share it with a friend and visit Braver Angels to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partisan divide.
Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it. Kelsey Blahnik is a therapist and social worker who's lived all over the map. Literally red places, blue places, purple places.
And she found good people everywhere she landed. That's not naive optimism. It's years of sitting with clients from every political conviction, listening to what actually drives them. Then the pandemic hit and the divide she navigated professionally started showing up in her personal life.
So she wrote it down. The book is called The and Way Assertive Peacemaking in a Divided World, and it's built on an idea I hadn't heard framed quite this way before. That peace doesn't mean an absence of conflict. It means learning to have the hard conversation instead of avoiding it.
Kelsey's also been part of the Braver Angels world since 2019. So she gets exactly what we're trying to do here. Today, we're talking about the real difference between being assertive and being aggressive. Why bottling things up eventually costs you the relationship, and how looking at yourself with a little more compassion might be the first step towards looking at everyone else that way to let's get into it with my friend Kelsey Blahnik.
Here we go. Kelsey Blahnik, welcome to the Derate the Hate podcast. It's great to see you today. [00:03:38:08] Kelsey Blahnik: It's great to see you.
[00:03:40:07] Wilk Wilkinson: I'm looking forward to hearing about this book. You would you'd reached out to us here at Bravery Angels to to talk a little bit about this book. And then you sent me the book and, and I've been looking at it a bit and very excited. So the book is The And Way, Assertive Peacemaking in a Divided World.
And Kelsey, my first question is, is, is, you know, what in your story? How did you come to the point where you're like, I need to write this book. [00:04:10:13] Kelsey Blahnik: I have moved all over the country, and I've lived in red places and predominantly blue places in purple places, and I found good people in all of those places. And so I've always known and loved people on the political, on all parts of the political spectrum, and have been serving as a social worker with a lot of different people, with a lot of different convictions.
And because of all those unique relationships I was especially convicted in during the pandemic by how divided things continue to feel and how uncomfortable that was to navigate in my personal and professional life. And so I wrote this book for to really teach people some skills that allowed me to still maintain relationships professionally and personally with folks that had held different convictions than me. And I wanted it for my kids and for my clients and anybody who is able to benefit from it. [00:05:09:02] Wilk Wilkinson: So, so the social work is is what I guess.
the social work and having and dealing with all the different people and seeing all the, well, like you said, you know, you know, people on the on the blue side of the spectrum, the red side of the spectrum, everywhere on all points in between and and how? How they relate to each other and then how you have to relate to them as a as a social worker. What is when I start thinking about peacemaking and how we do this and this is, this is the and way thing that I'm, I'm trying to to get here, Kelsey and is what does assertive peacemaking mean. I've never heard it put that way.
So I'm trying to trying to get my mind around, you know, the social work part and how assertive peacemaking kind of comes into that. [00:06:08:09] Kelsey Blahnik: So peacemaking to me and being a sort of is finding a place where we can actually have uncomfortable conversations and address things head on, rather than avoiding the tough topics and looking at peace from an absence of conflict point of view, I look at our need for being more assertive, not just on politics, but across the board, that if we could operate in a more assertive way with one another throughout our daily lives, and there wouldn't be so much less left to passive aggressiveness, and there wouldn't be so much left to make assumptions about one another, that we would have so much more clarity to move through the world with. And we could be curious with one another and actually get real answers from each other, too. [00:06:50:23] Wilk Wilkinson: And I think that's important because, you know, real life is just not absent of conflict, right?
And and that's one of the things that that always strikes me as odd when people start talking about the bridge building space or whatever, and they've just never been in it and, and they're like, oh, you guys are just trying to avoid all conflict and, and make everybody, you know, bring together people in these kumbaya moments and things like that. And I said, you know, I'm like, no, that's that's completely opposite of of what we we do. You know, it's not about avoiding conflict, but it's about how do we better, better navigate the conflict, better work through our issues together. I think, I mean, what you just said there is, I think hugely important is, is it leaves less to that kind of passive aggressive thing.
Right? And I mean, when people feel like they're not really allowed to get in there, it kind of makes them on rare. [00:07:56:23] Kelsey Blahnik: Absolutely. I talk often about that's being like Instant Pot where if you're full of steam and all this resentment or anger that if you just try and take the lid off and you just all of a sudden talk about something uncomfortable, the likelihood of the explosion is high because you're just going to kind of take that pendulum swing to the other end.
If you're passive over and over and over and holding it all and holding it all in, and the second unleash, it's going to feel like an explosion. I'm hoping to get to the place where. And I feel like, personally, I've gotten more careful about trying to vent some of that steam over time. So it's not an explosion, and that venting allows me to feel more connected to people.
That's intimacy. [00:08:40:12] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, that's a great analogy. The Instant Pot, I think that's the most used appliance that we have in our kitchen. And and it's a very good thing it has that little lock safety function on it.
Right. Because I mean, what you're saying, I just thinking about different ways that this analogy plays out because, I mean, it's hugely important, like you said, I mean, any, any receptacle, if you get too much steam, if you're not letting it off in the right way, it's going to explode. And, I think what I hear you saying is, if you're not not doing this in the right way. And I think this is what, becomes important, you know, with organizations like the one I work for, Braver Angels and the work you're doing with the and we therapy and things like that.
You provide like this structured space and things are things are set up to work in the right way so that, you know, it's not just a, this big combustion chamber that's going to to blow apart when it finally reaches that tipping point. Right. But but it works in a way that, you know, much like an Instant Pot has that little safety mechanism. And then the little valve where you release the steam and, and everything else, the structures that we operate in bring people together that might otherwise just tear each other apart in, in an unstructured way.
But we provide a, a space in which people can almost say, okay, I'm here, I've got this. That's completely different. I'm here, I've got this. That's completely different.
If we come together in a structured way, we can we can probably do something together in this structure that we could never do in and unstructured way. [00:10:30:08] Kelsey Blahnik: Yes, absolutely. That's why I've always loved what Braver Angels is doing. I've been engaging in workshops since 2019 and.
Yeah, I'm such a fan of the work you guys do because it is all about making this conflict more productive and effective, rather than thinking of how can we keep the lid on tighter, we're just looking at ways of venting in a productive way. [00:10:52:18] Wilk Wilkinson: So tell me then about how this has has played out for you, Kelsey. And in the social workspace and and the and way what, what what would you say is, is different about what you're doing. Than what your, your, you know, typical everyday social worker in, throughout the space talk to me about that.
[00:11:16:10] Kelsey Blahnik: Yes, exactly. So in terms of relationships, when I'm working with couples or when I'm working with individuals, and they're in all these relationships and I'm supporting them as they're navigating how they're going to handle those conflicts. One thing that's, I think, a little different than what the general therapy speak around conflict is that I'm not encouraging folks to siphon off and isolate and use that that overly used term boundaries to say, I need to boundary myself, protect my peace to such an extreme where it's all individualistic and I don't think we need to go to the extreme where there's no sense of boundaries and, you know, just throwing yourself into relationships and putting up with anything that the other person does, either there's this, there's this give and take of requesting, you know, putting out requests in a relationship for what you you want the other person to know that you're going to need in order to feel safe and comfortable staying in relationship or having a deeper and deeper relationship. And then there's also boundaries around when somebody doesn't meet that request, how far back you're going to pull, or what degree of relationship you really want to have, how much time you really want to spend with that person, that it doesn't have to be an all or nothing in relationships where either best, best friends or or we spend every every week together or we are cutting them out of our lives altogether.
So that's a big part of that on a relational standpoint. And then I work primarily with OCD and trauma. And so I'm in the same way. I'm just all about building psychological flexibility.
That's my passion. That's what I believe is going to be a major way of us trying to confront violence and confront all this division is having more flexibility in the way that we're not only looking at other people, how we're looking at ourselves like, I'm I'm a human being in progress. I've got all these competing impulses within me. And so my book is mostly about how to the first, more than half is about that internal work of how do I look at myself with compassion, knowing I have all these competing impulses?
I'm not all one way. I'm not maybe all red or all blue either. I've got all these competing impulses within me. Then it allows me to have more of that compassion when I'm looking outward at other people.
[00:13:30:09] Yeah.: [00:13:31:12] Wilk Wilkinson: And this is this is hugely important. And I'm glad you brought that up because this is well, I'm going to say it's very much part of my story, but it's, it's it's also part of, you know, we all have stories, right? I mean, the power of storytelling is, is a huge part of thing. But recognizing your own story and then working through your own issues, like you said, you work with trauma survivors and people who, OCD, trauma survivors, veterans, folks like that that have that have all seen these things.
But if we want to, if we want to be better for the world and present a positive impact on the world, a lot of times we have to go back to our own story and start working through those things, because we cannot be a light for the world if our own light is is not shining bright, right? I mean, I think I think that's how I wanted to say that, but but the reality is, is like I use my own story, Kelsey. And you can tell me if this is this is what I heard you saying. I use a lot of my own story.
Like I talk about all my anger and animus and things growing up and how I went on this personal mindset journey because I knew I couldn't be the right person for the world that I lived in without first working on me and and overcoming a lot of the things that that I've experienced over the course of my life. Is that kind of what you're talking about here? And in terms of. [00:15:09:18] You know.: [00:15:10:08] Wilk Wilkinson: Working with people and helping them work through their past so that they can get to a brighter future.
[00:15:17:19] Kelsey Blahnik: Yes. I think a lot of conflict resolution models and and books and talks focus a lot on. Here are the strategies you can use when you're in that conflict. And I in my book and my work is a lot about how can you find that regulation internally so that when you approach the conflict, you're prepared to, in your self-aware enough to be able to engage in a more productive way, just getting thrown in there, it can it can very easily activate these protective instincts in you to get aggressive or to shut down, to pull back and knowing more about yourself and and sometimes why that's there, but also how you want to, you know, present in the world, like you said, that you've made this journey toward wanting to be a light for you.
That's the that's the value that you're after is wanting to be a light in the world, then that that allows you to show up in a way that's going to be way more productive, that's going to allow you to vent instead of explode. [00:16:18:02] Yeah. Oh, absolutely.: [00:16:19:14] Wilk Wilkinson: Absolutely. I mean, there I mean, I've met so many people in my my journey, Kelsey.
And I'm sure you have too who who you're like, this person has so much to give and so much greatness there. If it wasn't just for you know, that that temper. That's that's what it was in my case is I just I just had this horrible temper. But, if it wasn't for that, that temper or that that passive aggressive nature, the way that they're interacting with people, you know, different things.
And it's like, boy, I'd love to be able to help, all these people find find that same thing. I mean, I, you know, for me, it was, you know, I described it the other day, Kelsey, as, looking back on it now, it was kind of like this prison that I had put myself in because of all the ugliness of my past and and allowing things that I had no control over to, to kind of control me. And I'm sure you've seen it, too. And I think we've all seen people that we we really care about that, you know, they, they, they, they just allow things outside of their control, things from their past to, to kind of dictate their future.
And it's like, I want to just help them unlock those chains that they're stuck in. [00:17:39:16] Kelsey Blahnik: Yes, yes. And a big part of psychological flexibility is not matching the way things have been, is the way things have to be. Being able to find more options, brainstorm and be more flexible to consider the way things have been isn't necessarily the way things are going to go.
Something new can happen and that goes with conflict, you know, expecting, oh, I already know how she's going to take it if I bring that topic up with her anticipating that allows us to shut down and maybe not venture into curious territory. And so whenever we anticipate that something could go differently than it did before, like, I can consider myself a human being in progress. It's messy and never changing. If I can look at other people that way too, then I'm going to be more willing to at least attempt hard conversations.
[00:18:27:23] Wilk Wilkinson: That's right. This. Goes back to the assertive, you know, peacemaking versus kind of passive peacemaking is is, you know, how do. We.
How do we unlock that for people. How do we I'm sure you can give me an example. Of. Somebody or a story of how you've been able to see that.
Moment in somebody that when you, when you take them from that, that I guess passive peacemaking to assertive peacemaking and and how. That. How that prompts or elicits that curiosity within a person. [00:19:03:16] Kelsey Blahnik: Yes.
Yes. Has I do think the idea of being assertive is this space in between the extremes of passive and aggressive like way on opposite ends, as I'm holding my hands out in opposite sides of the room? I think there's a lot of emphasis on trying, getting trying to get aggressive, quieter, or kind of getting aggressive, more assertive. And there's all these keyboard warriors out there online that seem really loud, those buildings folks.
And sometimes we think they're the majority when they're just allowed it. I am I have my work is speaking to both ends, but I am really emphasizing on that passive side. How can you know you amplify your voice so that we know those are just some of the loudest voices. Those aren't the only voices out there.
There are a lot of people that are holding convictions and just not speaking up about them. And so some of the ways that I encourage people to go from a passive to a more assertive and clear stance is first focusing on being able to identify what they want. I think a lot of times people aren't expressing because they've not actually practiced identifying that within themselves first. And so practicing not just how I feel.
I think we've gotten a lot better at that culturally about putting out a complaint. Even I don't like that and instead focusing on requests. Here's what I do want. And practicing that skill is really critical in a relationship.
Being able to say, you know, whenever you bring up this topic, I want us to be able to have this conversation in a more, you know, at this volume, or I would really love for us to have this conversation for a certain period of time. And then could we spend the rest of the day, you know, just having our Thanksgiving dinner or whatever? You know what, being able to be able to set some sort of limits and boundaries to the the way that you want the dynamic to flow has to come from even knowing what you want out of it. And a lot of times people just know I don't like this, but they don't know what they're actually looking for in a relationship.
Being able to be able to identify it and then express it is what we practice. [00:21:08:08] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, I think that's hugely important, whether it be individual or movement in general. It's if when you focus constantly on what you don't want or what you don't like it, it's it's almost like it's doomed to fail. But but if you can talk about what you are for and where you want to get to, I think you have a much, much greater likelihood of success because that's that's hugely important.
Another thing that you mentioned there, Kelsey, that I want to step back to a little bit because, I mean, I don't I don't know if this is as maybe as prevalent as I think it might be, but I think there are a lot of people right now that that don't understand the difference between aggressiveness and assertiveness, because I think that's I think that's a big point that I want to key on here, because aggressiveness and assertiveness, very two very different things in my book. And when people confuse the two they are it's like shooting yourself in the foot. Right. You think you're being assertive, but you're actually being aggressive.
And when you are aggressive, especially in terms of, Having a conversation. With somebody you disagree with, you know, or, or you're trying to work through some type of conflict. Assertiveness, I think is good aggressiveness. Very bad.
People's ears slammed shut. Not so good. Talk to me about that dynamic because there's there's something there that is very, very important. And I want to key on it.
[00:22:41:03] Kelsey Blahnik: Yes, absolutely. The difference can show up very differently between every individual and every cultural context. So what can come across is aggressive to one person, can be experienced by somebody else very differently or say, generally speaking, an increase in volume, the tone that's being used, the you you use, the pointing, their gesture, you know, hand gestures and posture that can all influence a more aggressive state. And when I'm thinking of assertive, it's all about being clear.
And I come back to those two critical things that I feel I want. So there's a vulnerability to it. It's not just what you should do that goes into aggressive. This is in communicating what I feel and what I want.
And I'm doing it clearly as as often as possible, trying to keep that that tone more respectful and engaged. And I do want to give the caveat. I don't think that a sort of communication is the only allowed or appropriate form at all times. I think there are circumstances where being passive is it's a survival mechanism, or, you know, you're not going to respond the same way to your boss about politics that you do to your parent, or that aggression may feel necessary as a survival tactic to protect yourself or protect someone.
It's when we go to those two extremes and we live in them, that ends up causing a dangerous pattern and unhealthy relationships in the long term. [00:24:10:18] Wilk Wilkinson: Hugely important point. Yeah, hugely important point. And I like the way you put it, Kelsey, when that's where we decide to live, when that becomes the habit instead of I mean, I think we need to adapt our, our conversation styles, especially when it comes to, you know, conflict resolution and working through working through our differences with people.
I think we need to adapt our communication style with people. I mean, some people are just going to respond better and share more with somebody who's who's a little more passive, somebody, you know. And yes, there are going to be times when it, you know, when when that survival instinct of, of being aggressive or a little more aggressive is going to be important. But living there in either one of those spaces, I think is, is problematic.
and I think it's also a skill, Kelsey, to, to start to learn as a communicator where to be and what people, are going to respond best to and what people are going to feel the most comfortable in sharing with, or, you know, what kind of communication style and what kind of person they think you are as the receiver of the communication they're trying to put out there. I think it's very important that we learn to, to read people. A friend of mine named Jennifer Furlong, she would would talk about the platinum rule. it's treat people as they wish to be treated, So I think when we start to think about our communication styles I think what you're saying is absolutely right.
You can't just live in one space. You can't just pigeonhole yourself to one style, talk a little bit more about that. For me. [00:25:55:09] Kelsey Blahnik: The way that in The And Way model I use this all the time is people oftentimes identify themselves with the style that they're most comfortable with or with the style that they think they're known for.
So people saying things like, I'm a people pleaser or, you know, she's a jerk or she's aggressive, you know, just kind of labeling others and labeling ourselves. It pigeonholes us into that. That's the place we're living in. And the And Way practice is being able to put a behavior and another behavior like, I've got these two competing impulses going on.
So I'm an a sort of person. And there are times that I get activated, I shut down, and I'm not even sure how to respond with this particular person in my family, or I'm a I'm a sort of person. I'm a peacemaker. And there are times when I don't even catch a passive aggressive comment until later on.
And then I, you know, real in about it. A little bum that I missed out on, on an opportunity to communicate instead of just I'm a people pleaser. There's a part of me that wants to people, please, I've done that plenty of times. And there's another part of me that's been practicing, requesting, identifying what I want and working toward that.
They're trying to break down some of those labels that we even put on ourselves into these competing impulses or these patterns that that can ebb and flow instead of being fixed and stuck. [00:27:19:16] Wilk Wilkinson: I mean, I just think there's some incredible things. I mean, the style that you're talking about, Kelsey, is, is, is just wonderful in terms of, in how we communicate, especially how we communicate with people we disagree with and working through. And this is this, this looks to me just to be another incredible model of of how people can, can learn how to communicate better across different.
I mean, one of the biggest things that that we are missing in society today, at least in my opinion, is the ability, the ability to, to to disagree effectively and work through our differences and have the right kind of dialog that I mean, one of the things that Braver angels we're talking so much about today's is courageous citizenship. And that's it's it takes a lot of courage to work through and, you know, convene, come together, solve problems together with people that we know we disagree with. So when we think about that, when we think about the whole idea of of the kind of courage that it takes to to engage across difference. Kelsey, what what are the biggest, you know, one of the what, say, the biggest 1 or 2 things that that, you know, people are going to take away from this book the and way and say, you know what, after I've read this book, I can do this thing, I can work across differences.
I'm going to use this tool And I am going to make a difference. [00:28:53:15] Kelsey Blahnik: What I hope is that people will be able to see these courageous conversations and courageous interactions, even even the courageous moment of looking at oneself with compassion as opportunities for growth, and as worth it because of the depth that you get in relationship, the peace that you get internally, that those that taking that uncomfortable step is going to be worth it because of the the outcome that it provides on a societal level, on a relational interpersonal level and on an internal level. And I think that's a lot of times folks are not sure if they're ready to commit to that, because they're not sure if if it's going to if that investment, it's a lot of time and energy to operate this way. It's not it's not easy.
And so I think that courage is the perfect word you're using to describe that. It's not a it's not a passive thing that just comes to be. I hope that people see that out of the discomfort comes growth. And then I hope that folks really practice being able to look at themselves as more than one thing, more than one label, and be able to look at other people with that same capacity.
And the more that that's practice back and forth, the more flexibility we're gaining. I think the more will be open to seeing each other is more than just a red or blue. You know that there's somebody who's identifies this way politically. And I saw that time that they brought a casserole to the neighbor over there that was that was struggling.
You know, I, I had my I had this family member that he seemed so mean. Instead of being like, oh, he's just a jerk, okay. He was a jerk over here. And then remember that other time he gave me an Easy Bake oven for Christmas?
That was really, you know, these there are these complexities within each person. Just like I can see that within myself. I sometimes have an impulse to be really judgmental. And I have the impulse to be really compassionate.
I'm not one or the other. [00:30:56:04] Wilk Wilkinson: Oh, that's absolutely right. That's such an important point, Kelsey. And yeah, we we as human beings were very complex, and we are much more than those little snapshots in time that, you know, we it's that is that is a great, great thing.
And I would love for people to take that away as well because we are we are complex. We all deserve a little bit of grace, and we don't want to be judged by the the worst moments, but there are a lot more moments that we can be judged by and and not only other people, but ourselves. And I'm glad you brought that up, because we have to have compassion for ourselves. We have to be thinking about.
we. Don't want people to judge us by our worst moments, and we are not going to judge others by their worst moments. People have a lot more to offer than just those snapshots in time. Kelsey Blahnik this has been a great conversation.
I want people to make sure they check out the book, The And Way: Assertive Peacemaking in a Divided World. I got the book right here I love it They can find it at the and press. Is that right. [00:32:00:11] Kelsey Blahnik: That's right.
And you can also find me on Instagram at the end way if you want to follow along as well. [00:32:07:02] Wilk Wilkinson: I'm so grateful for you, Kelsey. Thank you so much for joining me and we will do it again. [00:32:11:18] Kelsey Blahnik: Thank you so much.
Looking forward to it. [00:32:14:20] Wilk Wilkinson: Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate The Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week.
We really are better together. So please take a moment to visit Braver Angels and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divide. This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another.
Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friend. I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week.
Take care.
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