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Lura Forcum returns to talk about a word that's everywhere in politics right now: purity test. Her recent USA Today op-ed argues that the Democratic Socialists of America have pulled the Democratic Party further left, and Wilk and Lura use that as a jumping-off point to dig into something people on both sides of the aisle will recognize: why political parties keep drifting toward their most extreme edges instead of the center.
The conversation moves through Minnesota's record primary turnout, the DFL's shrinking influence against a rising DSA, and a line from the current Trump administration — that the president answers to Republicans, not the country — that Lura says marks a real break from how American politics used to operate. Underneath all of it is the same mechanism: purity tests turn political parties into something closer to gangs than coalitions. Pass the test, or you're out, regardless of what you actually believe.
But this isn't just a diagnosis. Lura shares how she personally engages politically without becoming a partisan cheerleader — voting in primaries she isn't excited about, being upfront about which candidates disappoint her, and finding other voters willing to hold that same honest, non-cheerleading stance. Wilk and Lura agree that a healthy civic culture has to be modeled from the ground up, since parties have little incentive to dial back tribal loyalty on their own.
Key Themes
● Purity tests turn political parties into something closer to gangs than coalitions — you pass the test or you're out, regardless of what you actually believe.
● Tribalism, not any single policy fight, is the real threat. A psychological switch flips once “our side” becomes identity rather than ideas — old wiring reasserting itself in modern politics.
● Political parties benefit from tribal loyalty, so there's little incentive from the top to dial it back. A healthier civic culture has to be modeled from the ground up, not handed down.
● Real change starts small: Lura describes voting in primaries she's not excited about, being upfront about which candidates disappoint her, and finding other voters willing to hold the same honest, non-cheerleading stance.
● Building something together across difference — not just disagreeing more politely — is what actually shifts a civic culture.
Takeaways
● You don't have to pick a side entirely to participate. Disagreeing with your own party on some issues doesn't make you a traitor to it.
● Show up to primaries. Low-turnout primaries are exactly where purity-test politics gets its power.
● Find people, even a small group, willing to say “this worries me too” without it turning into partisan warfare — that's where a healthier civic culture starts.
● Learn more about Lura's work at her newsletter, How to Human, or connect with her on LinkedIn.
About Lura Forcum
Lura Forcum, Ph.D., is a social psychologist, writer, and strategic advisor whose work focuses on political tribalism, polarization, and civic culture — how identity and belonging shape the way people engage, or disengage, with politics. She previously served as president of the Independent Center and now advises organizations working to strengthen civic engagement. She sits on the board of advisors for the Pro Human Foundation, writes the newsletter How to Human, and co-hosts the podcast We Made This Political.
Learn more and connect with Lura Forcum:
Website: https://luraforcum.substack.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/luraforcum/
Podcast: https://wemadethispolitical.substack.com/
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[00:00:00:00] Wilk Wilkinson: Ever get the sense that being political now means passing some kind of test, that if you don't check every box, you're a traitor somehow to your own side. My guest today calls it a pity test, and she recently wrote about how it's reshaping American politics. Today we get into why it's happening and what it's costing all of us. Stick with me. Welcome back, my friend, to the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson. Your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog. And those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with BraverAngels.org, America's largest grassroots cross partisan organization working toward civic renewal. This podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ. Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the Hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Share it with a friend and visit BraverAngels.org to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partisan divide. Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it. Lura is a social psychologist who studies something most of us feel but don't always have, the language for why politics has started to feel less like persuasion and more like tribal warfare. She spent her career looking at identity, belonging, and how those forces shaped the way we vote, argue and relate to people who disagree with us since we last talked. Lura's moved on from the independent center and is now doing consulting work focused on rebuilding a healthier civic culture, helping people who've checked out of politics find a way back in. She's also just joined the board of advisors for the Pro Human Foundation, where I'm proud to serve alongside her. She recently wrote a piece for USA today called How Democratic Socialism Became Democrats New Purity Test. And that's our jumping off point. We get into what purity tests actually do to a party, why tribalism might be the biggest threat we face as a country, and what it looks like to engage in politics without becoming a cheerleader for one side. Let's get into it with my friend Lura. Here we go. Lura Forcum, welcome back to the Derate the Hate podcast. It's so good to see you again today.
[00:03:28:18] Lura Forcum: Hey. Wilk, thanks for having me back.
[00:03:31:04] Wilk Wilkinson: I'm thrilled to have you back. I've been watching the the work that you've been doing for so long now of course you're on the, on the podcast. You know, somewhere around a year ago I think in two, I don't know, in the upper two hundreds of the episodes somewhere. I, I know you and I had that conversation and a couple other conversations and then recently I saw this, this, this article that, you put out in, USA today. Called How Democratic Socialism Became Democrats new purity test, an opinion piece. And and so I want to talk about purity tests, which I think is, I mean, it's always on my mind how, you know, the way that that politics has gotten so out of control in terms of these purity tests. And you know, who is what. And obviously, I'm always, being a conservative guy, I'm always looking at at the, the, the rhetoric based around, oh, well, this person's a rhino or that person's a rhino because, well, they don't pass the purity test, you know, and, I don't think that any one person or any one group has the right to define, you know, who's what or start calling people rhinos. We'll get into that. But, Lura, first, before we do that, I want to I want to catch up a little bit on what you've got going on, because I know, when you were on the podcast last, you were, part of the independent Center. and also one other thing that's happened since you were on the podcast last was you've joined the board of advisors with the Pro Human Foundation, which I'm proudly a on that board as well. So, I want to talk a little bit about what you've got going on now. Since you left the, the independent center and talk about, how you're settling in on the board of advisors for Human Foundation. So there we go. I've rambled on for long enough. Let's start with the independent center. What's going on? When when did you leave? And and, What are you doing now?
[00:05:30:09] Lura Forcum: So I left in mid-May. The independent center is doing really great work. They are taking a more political turn, and I am not a politics person, so I'm excited to see them get a lot of energy behind candidate work. And finding some really great independent candidates to run. But that's not my strong suit or my my mission. My mission is really around getting people to engage in the political process, getting increasing civic engagement, especially among people who are just kind of like, you know, politics is not for me. It's unpleasant. It's it's gross. It doesn't feel good. How can anybody like any of these candidates? I think one of the best paths back to normal politics for us is to get those people to hold their nose and come back, because when candidates have to start appealing to more moderate, centrist, reasonable people, it will change how they talk. It'll change how they behave. It'll change how? What kind of people even are willing to run and able to succeed? So I'm doing that work with a couple of clients now. Just kind of trying to to look at what would make a healthy civic culture. And I really love that work. I also was just really delighted recently to join the Procurement Foundation's Board of advisors. I know you're on it. My podcast co-host, Lauren Hall is on it. And like the the company that I'm in and that the board of advisors is was just kind of like, wow, this is these are some of the the coolest people that I know doing the coolest stuff. It's so inspiring. So I was like, oh, I'm so I was just really grateful and and excited for what Pro Human Foundation does, because I think that this idea that like, we can be ourselves as individuals but still engage with other people and other groups without losing ourselves, is is like so important? Because, you know, from what we were saying about the the tribalism, right? Like, I think that's one of the big problems is that the political tribes are now sort of a big part of people's identity. And they they are getting this place within culture where they're telling people, they're saying, like, if you want to be one of us, this is this is how you have to be. Right? And I think that's totally backwards. That's the tail wagging the dog. Right. Like it should be. The party should reflect voters values. They shouldn't be setting values for voters.
[00:08:21:12] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. No. That's right. I mean, when when politics becomes like gang warfare, it's it's, it just gets ugly. It gets dirty. I mean, you at the end of the day, I mean, kind of going back to what you were saying. There are about the, the when when all these different people have completely checked out, you know, they've checked out a politics. They don't like politics. They don't want anything to do with politics. Because it has become so ugly, so dirty, you know, and then what's left, you know, what's left is the kind of the ugliest of the ugly and and the the more. And I don't even mean moderate when, you know, when I say moderate, I don't mean moderate in terms of politics. But the those that that act in moderation and has a little bit of self-control and stuff like that. Now you've just got the ugliest on the outside fringes of what politics is. And, and they've got these purity tests and you almost have to get jumped in like you're a gang member. And it's, it's so we'll get into that a little bit more. But but the pro human foundation you're absolutely right. the pro Human Foundation Board of advisors is just this incredible, landscape of humanity. I mean, the the the people that are on it with us. The conversations that I've been blessed to have with, with so many of the people from our board of advisors and, and connecting and and brainstorming and just, just sharing ideas, all centered around that, that idea that we that we are all unique individuals, we have our shared humanity, you know, we all have these common things that we, we want, need, love, but we can still maintain our unique identity. So when I saw that you had had joined the the board of advisors, I was very excited about that. And congratulations on, on on being part of that crew.
[00:10:19:05] Lura Forcum: Thank you. So.
[00:10:20:16] Wilk Wilkinson: So yeah, I look forward to working with you more there, but but, so so this let's get to the, the purity test thing because I think obviously it has a lot to do with what you're working on now. Now that you've, you know, stepped away from the independent center. You're working with these other organizations on how we can improve our civic culture, how we can get people again to to get involved without sacrificing who they are, their mental well-being. Because, like you said, I mean, there are a lot of people, and I've said it more than more times than I can count on this podcast. People are checking out not out of apathy, but out of self-preservation. Things have gotten so ugly, Lura, that that people just don't want to be part of this anymore. They don't want to have to pass some purity test. So they say, you know what? If I have to pass some purity test to be part of this thing, I don't want to be part of this thing.
[00:11:22:05] Lura Forcum: Exactly. Yeah. They are saying if I have to go, if being political means I have to go to war on behalf of a party that I don't even like that much, then I guess politics isn't for me. And I you know, I don't blame them. I think politics has has changed its operating model. This is what I talk about in the op ed, a little bit like the tribal operating model. I think sometimes when we say that, I think people are understanding that to mean like, oh, this means that we dislike the other side, it means we're unkind to each other, but it has so many other elements that come along with it. When we start operating in a tribal model versus what politics used to be like, which was this is how we are going to sort out our disagreements and come to consensus on complex issues. That serves the most number of people. So we have these totally different logic models in operation, and I understand why people are like, no, I don't want to do politics because they think what it means is I have to engage by being deeply critical, right? By by being very public about my defense for, for one side or what's wrong with the other side, even even more. Right. And that's the thing that concerns me, because I actually think that when we have more typical traditional political competition, it actually creates a lot of spillover benefits for, for a wider number of people, whereas tribalism is just a sort of contest of figuring out like, how can we get good things for our group, for, for our tribe, for the in-group, and, exclude the people who aren't in the group?
[00:13:17:17] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. No, I think that's absolutely right. And and yeah, the this this us versus them tribalism. And and again I'll go back to something that people have heard me say plenty and that's that us versus them. Tribalism in my opinion, is the only true existential threat that we face as a nation, as a people. And when, when we start boiling it down to tribalism as opposed to what is going to be best for the greatest number of people, we often see, where, party A or party B, in this case, you know, you get the Republicans on one side, Democrats on the other, here in the United States. And, and they, they just get emboldened to govern in a way that's completely dismissive of everybody on the other side. And they do so with comfort because they have convinced them selves, but more importantly, can convince their constituency that the other side doesn't matter. They're evil, they're dumb, you know, they're there, you know? But that's not a healthy civic culture. We cannot continue to do that. It's unsustainable. So when we think about that and let's get into a little bit, deeper into the article, because, you know, you you are talking about how, and this, you know, as of the day of this recording, it's the, the primaries in, in Minnesota just ended. I've had some conversations about that today. The, the primaries in Wisconsin, where one of the DSA darling candidates over there, I think her name was Francesca Hong. Maybe. Yes. She actually lost. She was beaten, which was was kind of a surprise to some, but, but we've been seeing nationwide, we've been seeing a lot more of these, these DSA and Minnesota's a prime example of it. I was just reading something earlier where they said, you know, the DFL has nothing anymore in the state of Minnesota, the DSA, the Democrat Socialists of America have the stronghold. And the DFL is just kind of along for the ride. Talk about the in here. You talk about the Democrat Socialists of America are becoming a more prominent force in the Democrat Party, and how that is not a good thing. Yeah, I don't think it's a good thing for the country, but at all. But, but for the Democrat Party, for for the country as a whole. Talk to me more about that. Lura.
[00:15:49:16] Lura Forcum: Yeah. So, I mean, my article is really not even about their policy positions. Right? And I want to be really clear that I'm not saying that anybody is bad or wrong to hold those policy positions. They're entitled to hold the views that they hold. And that is part of democracy. What I question is why we are seeing such a strong incentive for the Democratic Party to align itself with the edge, right? Like if you think of them as the left extreme of the party, why would it make sense to them to move that direction instead of to the center? And it's fascinating. Like when I, I was seeing this play out, before the last two elections where if you spoke to Democrats or you were listening to Democrats talking publicly about their their electoral strategy, they would say, no, we don't we don't want former Trump voters. We don't want to convert those people. They're bad people. And it's part of that dynamic that you were talking about, of the parties convincing their constituencies that it doesn't matter what their nonmembers believe, that anybody who's not a Democrat doesn't count or anybody who's not a Republican. I think President Trump has said that he is not the president of the country. He's the president of Republicans. That and that's a huge switch from how politics is traditionally operated. You know, I know for some of the youngest voters, you know, in their lifetimes and their voting experience, they haven't seen a political dynamic where it mattered what the political minority thought. Right? People would talk about optics. People would talk about the consent of the governed. Right. And it wasn't a matter of like, hey, if I have 51% of the vote, I can do whatever I want. It was a matter of what is responsible use of the power that I have right now, based on the assumption that you aren't going to hold power forever. And at some point you are going to be on the receiving end of the the processes that you've set up, the conditions that you've set up, the norms that you've created or destroyed, you're going to be on the receiving end. And that's that's kind of like that is the the most transactional reason to worry about what those things are. Right. But but at a higher level, if you see yourself as a steward of, political office that you hold or the political institution that you serve, the reason to take care of those things and to govern with, a sense of sort of like restraint. Right. The reason to do that is because it is what's protective and healthy for those institutions. And I think that's what the tribal logic says. Don't worry about that. And I'm not at that part. I can't quite wrap my head around why people have suddenly lost the ability to think beyond the current term in which they hold power, and what things will be like when they are no longer in power.
[00:19:14:13] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, I mean, we we certainly have places throughout the country. I mean, Minnesota's, is one where we quite often see that mentality of we have the stronghold we're going to be in party for, or we're going to be in power forever. We're going to do what we would like and and case we'll just have to deal with it. I'm hoping to see that that change in the coming years. And, and we've seen an uptick in that behavior, Lura. And you and I are, you know, probably old enough. I know I am. I don't know about you, but but to remember that kind of that, that transition period where, you had, you had, you know, George. George. Well, you you actually mentioned in the, in the article, you know, George W Bush with the, the big tent conservatism and and bringing in people and and Clinton did to a certain extent. I mean, Clinton worked with Newt Gingrich on a, on a number of different things. And and certainly we had back in the in the Ronald Reagan days working with tip O'Neill and things like that to to get the, you know, somebody, somebody wrote a the other yesterday or a couple of days ago, I saw it on, on, I think it was on X or, or something. I made the comment because they had asked the question, you know, how did Ronald Reagan win 49 states? You know, because they just so it's so out of the realm of of logic for for them to see a, a politician. I don't care whether it's Republican or Democrat that that could win that kind of, you know, nationwide support from, from coast to coast only lost one state. It happened to be Minnesota, but.
[00:21:00:06] Lura Forcum: Oh, interesting.
[00:21:01:04] Wilk Wilkinson: But but the real realization, that's why I said it here. It's it's it's the, the the Democrat, the DSA, you know, as you talk about in in in the article, but the DSA has a very strong especially in the in, in the seven county metro area here in Minnesota, you know, so they don't I don't think they worry a whole lot about. You know, politics outside of. Of what they believe because they know that they're going to hold that, that stronghold. We've seen that in national politics. Now where. you know, even back during the Obama days, because I saw a, a stark contrast between what, what George Bush was doing and then what what Barack Obama did, which gave rise to the Tea Party and, and things like that. You know, the eye of a pen and a phone and, and, you know, he started out talking about we don't have red states and blue states. We have the United States. But then he governed in that way. That became started appearing as, if not always, but appearing as if in many ways to be very dismissive of anybody, right, of where he happened to stand on any particular day. And then it just got worse and worse and worse. Right? I mean, we started getting a little, you know, we saw worse getting getting worse. During the first Trump administration and then certainly got a lot worse during the Biden administration. And now we see it in hyperdrive during this Trump administration. So with that kind of trajectory in this way of purity tests, in this way of of governing in a way that's dismissive of anybody. that's. Not of your like mind in politics. How do. We start to convince people again, these people that have checked. Out for, for the reasons that that you and I have discussed, you know, a lot for self-preservation, how do we start to convince them again what a healthy civic culture looks like? Because you're right. There's a lot of voters right now that are a voting age that that have not seen. Yeah. I think I just went in a very long circle and rambled a little bit to get back here. But how do we, how do we start to show people again what a healthy civic culture is, why it's important that they check back in. Because it's going to require them being checked in to, to that healthy civic culture. What have we got to do?
[00:23:37:14] Lura Forcum: Yeah, I mean, I think we have to model it for one thing. That's that's something that I've tried to be more deliberate about lately, is saying like, hey, I'm voting in the Republican primaries in South Carolina. It's not because I'm really excited about any of these candidates. It's because when I look at the political landscape here, this is where I see a way to have an impact on what I'd like to see in office. And I try to be really clear, like, I don't like most of my choices. Here are the things that are important to me. When I'm looking at somebody who is running for Congress, I want somebody who believes that Congress has a its own power and role that it carries out within our Constitution. And I want Congress to be jealous of that power and not hand it over to the president. You know, I care. I'm concerned about the budget. I'm looking for candidates who have, who have a plan for how we're going to address our spending problems, which I think are after tribalism, maybe the biggest threat that we we face. So I'm trying to model that, like you can you can engage politically without being a cheerleader. Right. Like I'm not I'm not voting to to show one side how awful they are. And I'm not also not voting because I'm, you know, so excited about a single candidate on a on the other side. Like, that's that's not what we're doing. So I think we have to we have to talk through how we think about these things and what we're doing. I think also, you know, we need groups of voters. to support each other in doing that work and to be able to say like, hey, are you seeing what I am seeing? Are you. Does this concern you? Right? And instead of saying, hey, this is so bad that we're going to leave and not talk about it, not engage. I think it's really helpful if if groups of people can say, yeah, this worries me too. What are you doing about it? Because it's within that group, sort of, you know, within groups of people that we can feel like we're not alone. Somebody can remind you to go to the polls. Somebody can say like, yeah, that was terrible. I saw that, without having it descend into just like, rank partisan warfare. Yeah. So just like modeling a different way of doing political engagement, that's like, you know what? There's there's not a good guy in a bad guy here. That is like our preferred way, I think of human as humans, of perceiving the world as saying it's in this very dualistic way. Right? Like one side is good, one is bad, one side harms, the other is harmed. Right. And then it's always this perfect yin yang dynamic. Right. And so like the reality is always more complicated. And, and we need people to bring in that complexity and acknowledge it in politics because the parties are absolutely not going to do that.
[00:26:54:05] Wilk Wilkinson: No they're not. And and one of the things there's a number of things I want to I want to kind of highlight and what you just said there and, like I said, the primaries just ended yesterday here in the state of Minnesota. And we I just have to say this as a proud you. No person here is that that we just had record turnouts for the primaries. I think people are starting to wake up to that very fact, Lura, that if we are not participating in the primaries, we are typically going to be picking from two pretty ugly things and ugly candidates. I shouldn't say ugly things, but, ugly candidates in because you're absolutely right, people. People try to boil down politics and so many other things to these rigid binaries. It's either this or that, you know, and again, that's why I talk about us versus them tribalism so much is because, you know, depending on what side you're on, the US is different than them is different. But it's always, always seems to turn into this good versus evil thing. And that's not the I mean, it's just not right. Right. It's not right. And and a lot of times people quit actually looking at the person and just they're looking at the jersey so they lose sight of all the important stuff that comes along with that decision. And just simply look at the jersey that the person is wearing. One of the things and I want to get your take on this because along those same lines, when, when it, when it does end up boiling down to just the US versus them, you know, the A versus B, the, the rigid binary, it's easy. We give a scapegoat to those that are in camp A or in camp B, or vying to be the representative for camp A or B to just simply, you know, focus on on what we're against. Well, this person is so much worse than I could ever possibly be. So you have to vote for me because they're just evil, you know? And and we we saw it here. And thankfully we get a couple hours worth of, of political reprieve now that the, the primaries ended. But these, these circular firing squads here where, you know, the, the candidates on each in each party or are just slinging mud at each other and, and whatever. But we start to hear most political ads now instead of being, this is what we are for. It's all about this is what we are against. I'm going to do a better job at fighting the evil Donald Trump. You know, I just because that's that's what I was seeing mostly for ads in Minnesota is, is just the focus on it wasn't anything about what I'm for or or what I'm going to do. Great. It's just it's just who's going to fight harder to fight Trump. It was was basically what we were seeing here in Minnesota. But I don't think you can build a strong civic culture, Lura, based on constantly highlighting what we are against, eventually we have to get back to the politics of what we are for. What does a healthy civic culture look like? How am I going to be part of the solution, and not just how I'm going to fight what you as evil, but what am I going to bring to the table that ends up presenting a positive vision? Talk a little bit about that as we round out our time. talk about that idea that that when we do get stuck in these, rigid binaries with the outermost fringe, we're not talking anymore about what's what's good, how we're going to make a positive impact. We're just talking about what we're against instead of what we're for.
[00:30:52:13] Lura Forcum: Yeah, I mean, it it removes all the accountability, right? If you if if your assumption is, hey, I have problems with Donald Trump, right? Then people, what people will say to you. Well, so I guess you're a Democrat, right? Like, if you have a critique even of your side, it means that you are, you're violating the rules, right? Like, you're not allowed to critique your own side. And the problem with that is that the other side also can't critique your party. Right? So what's going to keep it on the rails? What what lets you say, hey, you didn't do a very good job. You didn't do the things you said you would do. Where's my where's my recourse when my party isn't succeeding, or isn't holding up their end of the bargain? And I think that's why the party's actually really like tribalism. They've, they've they've found a system that is this very old hardware we have in our brains. Like, I think Americans thought, like we're modern humans. We're done with tribalism. We are. We're a new man. And we're not. We're the old people. We're the we have the old brains. Yeah. And so it's worked really well for the, the political parties and, and, you know, there's so many aspects to tribalism that that they're like these operating systems and they tell you things like, stay away from those people. Right? Like keep your distance, don't get close, don't listen to them, don't humanize them. And my advice to people is the opposite. It's like, no, go to them. And Wilk, I feel like you do this really well in your podcast. And I know, like we both appreciate that this is what Daryl Davis did, right is like, take somebody who looks looks at you or your side, right. And, and is completely opposed to it. And just go, go have a conversation. Because the thing that is really remarkable about humans is that, like we mostly get along with one another, face to face, we have what's called sociality, which is just that we tend to be prosocial when we are in the company of other human beings. We tend to get along. We tend to be nice. We tend to be polite. It is. It's not universal, but it's consistent enough that I can tell you if if, you know, if I go have lunch with Francesca Hong, who may not accept my invitation. But if we sit and talk, we can probably find things that we agree on and we can respectfully disagree with each other. And I think the parties want you to stay away from the other side, so that you don't realize how much you have in common.
[00:33:41:11] Wilk Wilkinson: That's absolutely.
[00:33:42:14] Lura Forcum: Yeah. My first recommendation to people who want a healthier civic culture is go, go talk to your neighbors. Go, go talk to somebody that you're sure is completely misguided on policy. Like, just go here them out. Don't don't try to agree. You don't change their mind. They're not going to change your mind. But if you spend some time together, you'll be shocked at, at the fact that they probably don't hate this country. They probably are not committed to destroying this country. And there are probably things that the two of you can agree on, maybe more than you expect.
[00:34:19:00] Wilk Wilkinson: No, that's right. And that's why I say it every day is is you cannot hate somebody into believing what you believe, and you cannot hate somebody into seeing the world the way that you do. And I'll take take what you're saying one step further. And, you know, depolarization is fantastic. Dialog across difference is fantastic. But when we start to focus on on what we can build together and and committing to action together across difference to accomplish some, some shared goal. We, we change the dynamic of everything. And that's, that's what I see is as becoming a, a healthy civic culture. It's one of the things we're working so hard at now with BraverAngels.org and, and courageous citizenship is is working together across difference to build something, you know, action across difference to build together which which I know you're, big into as well. Lura, this has been another fantastic conversation. We covered a lot of ground in a short amount of time, and and I'm so grateful for you. Grateful that you've joined us now at the board of advisors for the Pro Human Foundation. And yeah, grateful for the article. Thank you for reaching out with it. I appreciate it a lot.
[00:35:32:10] Lura Forcum: Yeah, thanks for the conversation Wilk, I any chance we get to talk? I really appreciate the work you're doing, and it's always fun.
[00:35:41:07] Wilk Wilkinson: Thank you so much. Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Rate The Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together. So please take a moment to visit BraverAngels.org.org and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divides. This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friend, I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
Transcript is AI generated and may contain errors [00:00:00:00] Wilk Wilkinson: Ever get the sense that being political now means passing some kind of test, that if you don't check every box, you're a traitor somehow to your own side. My guest today calls it a pity test, and she recently wrote about how it's reshaping American politics. Today we get into why it's happening and what it's costing all of us. Stick with me.
Welcome back, my friend, to the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson. Your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog. And those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance.
The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with BraverAngels.org, America's largest grassroots cross partisan organization working toward civic renewal. This podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ. Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time.
We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the Hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Share it with a friend and visit BraverAngels.org to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partisan divide. Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode.
So let's get to it. Lura is a social psychologist who studies something most of us feel but don't always have, the language for why politics has started to feel less like persuasion and more like tribal warfare. She spent her career looking at identity, belonging, and how those forces shaped the way we vote, argue and relate to people who disagree with us since we last talked. Lura's moved on from the independent center and is now doing consulting work focused on rebuilding a healthier civic culture, helping people who've checked out of politics find a way back in.
She's also just joined the board of advisors for the Pro Human Foundation, where I'm proud to serve alongside her. She recently wrote a piece for USA today called How Democratic Socialism Became Democrats New Purity Test. And that's our jumping off point. We get into what purity tests actually do to a party, why tribalism might be the biggest threat we face as a country, and what it looks like to engage in politics without becoming a cheerleader for one side.
Let's get into it with my friend Lura. Here we go. Lura Forcum, welcome back to the Derate the Hate podcast. It's so good to see you again today.
[00:03:28:18] Lura Forcum: Hey. Wilk, thanks for having me back. [00:03:31:04] Wilk Wilkinson: I'm thrilled to have you back. I've been watching the the work that you've been doing for so long now of course you're on the, on the podcast.
You know, somewhere around a year ago I think in two, I don't know, in the upper two hundreds of the episodes somewhere. I, I know you and I had that conversation and a couple other conversations and then recently I saw this, this, this article that, you put out in, USA today. Called How Democratic Socialism Became Democrats new purity test, an opinion piece. And and so I want to talk about purity tests, which I think is, I mean, it's always on my mind how, you know, the way that that politics has gotten so out of control in terms of these purity tests.
And you know, who is what. And obviously, I'm always, being a conservative guy, I'm always looking at at the, the, the rhetoric based around, oh, well, this person's a rhino or that person's a rhino because, well, they don't pass the purity test, you know, and, I don't think that any one person or any one group has the right to define, you know, who's what or start calling people rhinos. We'll get into that. But, Lura, first, before we do that, I want to I want to catch up a little bit on what you've got going on, because I know, when you were on the podcast last, you were, part of the independent Center.
and also one other thing that's happened since you were on the podcast last was you've joined the board of advisors with the Pro Human Foundation, which I'm proudly a on that board as well. So, I want to talk a little bit about what you've got going on now. Since you left the, the independent center and talk about, how you're settling in on the board of advisors for Human Foundation. So there we go.
I've rambled on for long enough. Let's start with the independent center. What's going on? When when did you leave?
And and, What are you doing now? [00:05:30:09] Lura Forcum: So I left in mid-May. The independent center is doing really great work. They are taking a more political turn, and I am not a politics person, so I'm excited to see them get a lot of energy behind candidate work.
And finding some really great independent candidates to run. But that's not my strong suit or my my mission. My mission is really around getting people to engage in the political process, getting increasing civic engagement, especially among people who are just kind of like, you know, politics is not for me. It's unpleasant.
It's it's gross. It doesn't feel good. How can anybody like any of these candidates? I think one of the best paths back to normal politics for us is to get those people to hold their nose and come back, because when candidates have to start appealing to more moderate, centrist, reasonable people, it will change how they talk.
It'll change how they behave. It'll change how? What kind of people even are willing to run and able to succeed? So I'm doing that work with a couple of clients now.
Just kind of trying to to look at what would make a healthy civic culture. And I really love that work. I also was just really delighted recently to join the Procurement Foundation's Board of advisors. I know you're on it.
My podcast co-host, Lauren Hall is on it. And like the the company that I'm in and that the board of advisors is was just kind of like, wow, this is these are some of the the coolest people that I know doing the coolest stuff. It's so inspiring. So I was like, oh, I'm so I was just really grateful and and excited for what Pro Human Foundation does, because I think that this idea that like, we can be ourselves as individuals but still engage with other people and other groups without losing ourselves, is is like so important?
Because, you know, from what we were saying about the the tribalism, right? Like, I think that's one of the big problems is that the political tribes are now sort of a big part of people's identity. And they they are getting this place within culture where they're telling people, they're saying, like, if you want to be one of us, this is this is how you have to be. Right?
And I think that's totally backwards. That's the tail wagging the dog. Right. Like it should be.
The party should reflect voters values. They shouldn't be setting values for voters. [00:08:21:12] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. No.
That's right. I mean, when when politics becomes like gang warfare, it's it's, it just gets ugly. It gets dirty. I mean, you at the end of the day, I mean, kind of going back to what you were saying.
There are about the, the when when all these different people have completely checked out, you know, they've checked out a politics. They don't like politics. They don't want anything to do with politics. Because it has become so ugly, so dirty, you know, and then what's left, you know, what's left is the kind of the ugliest of the ugly and and the the more.
And I don't even mean moderate when, you know, when I say moderate, I don't mean moderate in terms of politics. But the those that that act in moderation and has a little bit of self-control and stuff like that. Now you've just got the ugliest on the outside fringes of what politics is. And, and they've got these purity tests and you almost have to get jumped in like you're a gang member.
And it's, it's so we'll get into that a little bit more. But but the pro human foundation you're absolutely right. the pro Human Foundation Board of advisors is just this incredible, landscape of humanity. I mean, the the the people that are on it with us.
The conversations that I've been blessed to have with, with so many of the people from our board of advisors and, and connecting and and brainstorming and just, just sharing ideas, all centered around that, that idea that we that we are all unique individuals, we have our shared humanity, you know, we all have these common things that we, we want, need, love, but we can still maintain our unique identity. So when I saw that you had had joined the the board of advisors, I was very excited about that. And congratulations on, on on being part of that crew. [00:10:19:05] Lura Forcum: Thank you.
So. [00:10:20:16] Wilk Wilkinson: So yeah, I look forward to working with you more there, but but, so so this let's get to the, the purity test thing because I think obviously it has a lot to do with what you're working on now. Now that you've, you know, stepped away from the independent center. You're working with these other organizations on how we can improve our civic culture, how we can get people again to to get involved without sacrificing who they are, their mental well-being.
Because, like you said, I mean, there are a lot of people, and I've said it more than more times than I can count on this podcast. People are checking out not out of apathy, but out of self-preservation. Things have gotten so ugly, Lura, that that people just don't want to be part of this anymore. They don't want to have to pass some purity test.
So they say, you know what? If I have to pass some purity test to be part of this thing, I don't want to be part of this thing. [00:11:22:05] Lura Forcum: Exactly. Yeah.
They are saying if I have to go, if being political means I have to go to war on behalf of a party that I don't even like that much, then I guess politics isn't for me. And I you know, I don't blame them. I think politics has has changed its operating model. This is what I talk about in the op ed, a little bit like the tribal operating model.
I think sometimes when we say that, I think people are understanding that to mean like, oh, this means that we dislike the other side, it means we're unkind to each other, but it has so many other elements that come along with it. When we start operating in a tribal model versus what politics used to be like, which was this is how we are going to sort out our disagreements and come to consensus on complex issues. That serves the most number of people. So we have these totally different logic models in operation, and I understand why people are like, no, I don't want to do politics because they think what it means is I have to engage by being deeply critical, right?
By by being very public about my defense for, for one side or what's wrong with the other side, even even more. Right. And that's the thing that concerns me, because I actually think that when we have more typical traditional political competition, it actually creates a lot of spillover benefits for, for a wider number of people, whereas tribalism is just a sort of contest of figuring out like, how can we get good things for our group, for, for our tribe, for the in-group, and, exclude the people who aren't in the group? [00:13:17:17] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah.
No, I think that's absolutely right. And and yeah, the this this us versus them tribalism. And and again I'll go back to something that people have heard me say plenty and that's that us versus them. Tribalism in my opinion, is the only true existential threat that we face as a nation, as a people.
And when, when we start boiling it down to tribalism as opposed to what is going to be best for the greatest number of people, we often see, where, party A or party B, in this case, you know, you get the Republicans on one side, Democrats on the other, here in the United States. And, and they, they just get emboldened to govern in a way that's completely dismissive of everybody on the other side. And they do so with comfort because they have convinced them selves, but more importantly, can convince their constituency that the other side doesn't matter. They're evil, they're dumb, you know, they're there, you know?
But that's not a healthy civic culture. We cannot continue to do that. It's unsustainable. So when we think about that and let's get into a little bit, deeper into the article, because, you know, you you are talking about how, and this, you know, as of the day of this recording, it's the, the primaries in, in Minnesota just ended.
I've had some conversations about that today. The, the primaries in Wisconsin, where one of the DSA darling candidates over there, I think her name was Francesca Hong. Maybe. Yes.
She actually lost. She was beaten, which was was kind of a surprise to some, but, but we've been seeing nationwide, we've been seeing a lot more of these, these DSA and Minnesota's a prime example of it. I was just reading something earlier where they said, you know, the DFL has nothing anymore in the state of Minnesota, the DSA, the Democrat Socialists of America have the stronghold. And the DFL is just kind of along for the ride.
Talk about the in here. You talk about the Democrat Socialists of America are becoming a more prominent force in the Democrat Party, and how that is not a good thing. Yeah, I don't think it's a good thing for the country, but at all. But, but for the Democrat Party, for for the country as a whole.
Talk to me more about that. Lura. [00:15:49:16] Lura Forcum: Yeah. So, I mean, my article is really not even about their policy positions.
Right? And I want to be really clear that I'm not saying that anybody is bad or wrong to hold those policy positions. They're entitled to hold the views that they hold. And that is part of democracy.
What I question is why we are seeing such a strong incentive for the Democratic Party to align itself with the edge, right? Like if you think of them as the left extreme of the party, why would it make sense to them to move that direction instead of to the center? And it's fascinating. Like when I, I was seeing this play out, before the last two elections where if you spoke to Democrats or you were listening to Democrats talking publicly about their their electoral strategy, they would say, no, we don't we don't want former Trump voters.
We don't want to convert those people. They're bad people. And it's part of that dynamic that you were talking about, of the parties convincing their constituencies that it doesn't matter what their nonmembers believe, that anybody who's not a Democrat doesn't count or anybody who's not a Republican. I think President Trump has said that he is not the president of the country.
He's the president of Republicans. That and that's a huge switch from how politics is traditionally operated. You know, I know for some of the youngest voters, you know, in their lifetimes and their voting experience, they haven't seen a political dynamic where it mattered what the political minority thought. Right?
People would talk about optics. People would talk about the consent of the governed. Right. And it wasn't a matter of like, hey, if I have 51% of the vote, I can do whatever I want.
It was a matter of what is responsible use of the power that I have right now, based on the assumption that you aren't going to hold power forever. And at some point you are going to be on the receiving end of the the processes that you've set up, the conditions that you've set up, the norms that you've created or destroyed, you're going to be on the receiving end. And that's that's kind of like that is the the most transactional reason to worry about what those things are. Right.
But but at a higher level, if you see yourself as a steward of, political office that you hold or the political institution that you serve, the reason to take care of those things and to govern with, a sense of sort of like restraint. Right. The reason to do that is because it is what's protective and healthy for those institutions. And I think that's what the tribal logic says.
Don't worry about that. And I'm not at that part. I can't quite wrap my head around why people have suddenly lost the ability to think beyond the current term in which they hold power, and what things will be like when they are no longer in power. [00:19:14:13] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, I mean, we we certainly have places throughout the country.
I mean, Minnesota's, is one where we quite often see that mentality of we have the stronghold we're going to be in party for, or we're going to be in power forever. We're going to do what we would like and and case we'll just have to deal with it. I'm hoping to see that that change in the coming years. And, and we've seen an uptick in that behavior, Lura.
And you and I are, you know, probably old enough. I know I am. I don't know about you, but but to remember that kind of that, that transition period where, you had, you had, you know, George. George.
Well, you you actually mentioned in the, in the article, you know, George W Bush with the, the big tent conservatism and and bringing in people and and Clinton did to a certain extent. I mean, Clinton worked with Newt Gingrich on a, on a number of different things. And and certainly we had back in the in the Ronald Reagan days working with tip O'Neill and things like that to to get the, you know, somebody, somebody wrote a the other yesterday or a couple of days ago, I saw it on, on, I think it was on X or, or something. I made the comment because they had asked the question, you know, how did Ronald Reagan win 49 states?
You know, because they just so it's so out of the realm of of logic for for them to see a, a politician. I don't care whether it's Republican or Democrat that that could win that kind of, you know, nationwide support from, from coast to coast only lost one state. It happened to be Minnesota, but. [00:21:00:06] Lura Forcum: Oh, interesting.
[00:21:01:04] Wilk Wilkinson: But but the real realization, that's why I said it here. It's it's it's the, the the Democrat, the DSA, you know, as you talk about in in in the article, but the DSA has a very strong especially in the in, in the seven county metro area here in Minnesota, you know, so they don't I don't think they worry a whole lot about. You know, politics outside of. Of what they believe because they know that they're going to hold that, that stronghold.
We've seen that in national politics. Now where. you know, even back during the Obama days, because I saw a, a stark contrast between what, what George Bush was doing and then what what Barack Obama did, which gave rise to the Tea Party and, and things like that. You know, the eye of a pen and a phone and, and, you know, he started out talking about we don't have red states and blue states.
We have the United States. But then he governed in that way. That became started appearing as, if not always, but appearing as if in many ways to be very dismissive of anybody, right, of where he happened to stand on any particular day. And then it just got worse and worse and worse.
Right? I mean, we started getting a little, you know, we saw worse getting getting worse. During the first Trump administration and then certainly got a lot worse during the Biden administration. And now we see it in hyperdrive during this Trump administration.
So with that kind of trajectory in this way of purity tests, in this way of of governing in a way that's dismissive of anybody. that's. Not of your like mind in politics. How do.
We start to convince people again, these people that have checked. Out for, for the reasons that that you and I have discussed, you know, a lot for self-preservation, how do we start to convince them again what a healthy civic culture looks like? Because you're right. There's a lot of voters right now that are a voting age that that have not seen.
Yeah. I think I just went in a very long circle and rambled a little bit to get back here. But how do we, how do we start to show people again what a healthy civic culture is, why it's important that they check back in. Because it's going to require them being checked in to, to that healthy civic culture.
What have we got to do? [00:23:37:14] Lura Forcum: Yeah, I mean, I think we have to model it for one thing. That's that's something that I've tried to be more deliberate about lately, is saying like, hey, I'm voting in the Republican primaries in South Carolina. It's not because I'm really excited about any of these candidates.
It's because when I look at the political landscape here, this is where I see a way to have an impact on what I'd like to see in office. And I try to be really clear, like, I don't like most of my choices. Here are the things that are important to me. When I'm looking at somebody who is running for Congress, I want somebody who believes that Congress has a its own power and role that it carries out within our Constitution.
And I want Congress to be jealous of that power and not hand it over to the president. You know, I care. I'm concerned about the budget. I'm looking for candidates who have, who have a plan for how we're going to address our spending problems, which I think are after tribalism, maybe the biggest threat that we we face.
So I'm trying to model that, like you can you can engage politically without being a cheerleader. Right. Like I'm not I'm not voting to to show one side how awful they are. And I'm not also not voting because I'm, you know, so excited about a single candidate on a on the other side.
Like, that's that's not what we're doing. So I think we have to we have to talk through how we think about these things and what we're doing. I think also, you know, we need groups of voters. to support each other in doing that work and to be able to say like, hey, are you seeing what I am seeing?
Are you. Does this concern you? Right? And instead of saying, hey, this is so bad that we're going to leave and not talk about it, not engage.
I think it's really helpful if if groups of people can say, yeah, this worries me too. What are you doing about it? Because it's within that group, sort of, you know, within groups of people that we can feel like we're not alone. Somebody can remind you to go to the polls.
Somebody can say like, yeah, that was terrible. I saw that, without having it descend into just like, rank partisan warfare. Yeah. So just like modeling a different way of doing political engagement, that's like, you know what?
There's there's not a good guy in a bad guy here. That is like our preferred way, I think of human as humans, of perceiving the world as saying it's in this very dualistic way. Right? Like one side is good, one is bad, one side harms, the other is harmed.
Right. And then it's always this perfect yin yang dynamic. Right. And so like the reality is always more complicated.
And, and we need people to bring in that complexity and acknowledge it in politics because the parties are absolutely not going to do that. [00:26:54:05] Wilk Wilkinson: No they're not. And and one of the things there's a number of things I want to I want to kind of highlight and what you just said there and, like I said, the primaries just ended yesterday here in the state of Minnesota. And we I just have to say this as a proud you.
No person here is that that we just had record turnouts for the primaries. I think people are starting to wake up to that very fact, Lura, that if we are not participating in the primaries, we are typically going to be picking from two pretty ugly things and ugly candidates. I shouldn't say ugly things, but, ugly candidates in because you're absolutely right, people. People try to boil down politics and so many other things to these rigid binaries.
It's either this or that, you know, and again, that's why I talk about us versus them tribalism so much is because, you know, depending on what side you're on, the US is different than them is different. But it's always, always seems to turn into this good versus evil thing. And that's not the I mean, it's just not right. Right.
It's not right. And and a lot of times people quit actually looking at the person and just they're looking at the jersey so they lose sight of all the important stuff that comes along with that decision. And just simply look at the jersey that the person is wearing. One of the things and I want to get your take on this because along those same lines, when, when it, when it does end up boiling down to just the US versus them, you know, the A versus B, the, the rigid binary, it's easy.
We give a scapegoat to those that are in camp A or in camp B, or vying to be the representative for camp A or B to just simply, you know, focus on on what we're against. Well, this person is so much worse than I could ever possibly be. So you have to vote for me because they're just evil, you know? And and we we saw it here.
And thankfully we get a couple hours worth of, of political reprieve now that the, the primaries ended. But these, these circular firing squads here where, you know, the, the candidates on each in each party or are just slinging mud at each other and, and whatever. But we start to hear most political ads now instead of being, this is what we are for. It's all about this is what we are against.
I'm going to do a better job at fighting the evil Donald Trump. You know, I just because that's that's what I was seeing mostly for ads in Minnesota is, is just the focus on it wasn't anything about what I'm for or or what I'm going to do. Great. It's just it's just who's going to fight harder to fight Trump.
It was was basically what we were seeing here in Minnesota. But I don't think you can build a strong civic culture, Lura, based on constantly highlighting what we are against, eventually we have to get back to the politics of what we are for. What does a healthy civic culture look like? How am I going to be part of the solution, and not just how I'm going to fight what you as evil, but what am I going to bring to the table that ends up presenting a positive vision?
Talk a little bit about that as we round out our time. talk about that idea that that when we do get stuck in these, rigid binaries with the outermost fringe, we're not talking anymore about what's what's good, how we're going to make a positive impact. We're just talking about what we're against instead of what we're for. [00:30:52:13] Lura Forcum: Yeah, I mean, it it removes all the accountability, right?
If you if if your assumption is, hey, I have problems with Donald Trump, right? Then people, what people will say to you. Well, so I guess you're a Democrat, right? Like, if you have a critique even of your side, it means that you are, you're violating the rules, right?
Like, you're not allowed to critique your own side. And the problem with that is that the other side also can't critique your party. Right? So what's going to keep it on the rails?
What what lets you say, hey, you didn't do a very good job. You didn't do the things you said you would do. Where's my where's my recourse when my party isn't succeeding, or isn't holding up their end of the bargain? And I think that's why the party's actually really like tribalism.
They've, they've they've found a system that is this very old hardware we have in our brains. Like, I think Americans thought, like we're modern humans. We're done with tribalism. We are.
We're a new man. And we're not. We're the old people. We're the we have the old brains.
Yeah. And so it's worked really well for the, the political parties and, and, you know, there's so many aspects to tribalism that that they're like these operating systems and they tell you things like, stay away from those people. Right? Like keep your distance, don't get close, don't listen to them, don't humanize them.
And my advice to people is the opposite. It's like, no, go to them. And Wilk, I feel like you do this really well in your podcast. And I know, like we both appreciate that this is what Daryl Davis did, right is like, take somebody who looks looks at you or your side, right.
And, and is completely opposed to it. And just go, go have a conversation. Because the thing that is really remarkable about humans is that, like we mostly get along with one another, face to face, we have what's called sociality, which is just that we tend to be prosocial when we are in the company of other human beings. We tend to get along.
We tend to be nice. We tend to be polite. It is. It's not universal, but it's consistent enough that I can tell you if if, you know, if I go have lunch with Francesca Hong, who may not accept my invitation.
But if we sit and talk, we can probably find things that we agree on and we can respectfully disagree with each other. And I think the parties want you to stay away from the other side, so that you don't realize how much you have in common. [00:33:41:11] Wilk Wilkinson: That's absolutely. [00:33:42:14] Lura Forcum: Yeah.
My first recommendation to people who want a healthier civic culture is go, go talk to your neighbors. Go, go talk to somebody that you're sure is completely misguided on policy. Like, just go here them out. Don't don't try to agree.
You don't change their mind. They're not going to change your mind. But if you spend some time together, you'll be shocked at, at the fact that they probably don't hate this country. They probably are not committed to destroying this country.
And there are probably things that the two of you can agree on, maybe more than you expect. [00:34:19:00] Wilk Wilkinson: No, that's right. And that's why I say it every day is is you cannot hate somebody into believing what you believe, and you cannot hate somebody into seeing the world the way that you do. And I'll take take what you're saying one step further.
And, you know, depolarization is fantastic. Dialog across difference is fantastic. But when we start to focus on on what we can build together and and committing to action together across difference to accomplish some, some shared goal. We, we change the dynamic of everything.
And that's, that's what I see is as becoming a, a healthy civic culture. It's one of the things we're working so hard at now with BraverAngels.org and, and courageous citizenship is is working together across difference to build something, you know, action across difference to build together which which I know you're, big into as well. Lura, this has been another fantastic conversation. We covered a lot of ground in a short amount of time, and and I'm so grateful for you.
Grateful that you've joined us now at the board of advisors for the Pro Human Foundation. And yeah, grateful for the article. Thank you for reaching out with it. I appreciate it a lot.
[00:35:32:10] Lura Forcum: Yeah, thanks for the conversation Wilk, I any chance we get to talk? I really appreciate the work you're doing, and it's always fun. [00:35:41:07] Wilk Wilkinson: Thank you so much. Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in.
And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Rate The Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together. So please take a moment to visit BraverAngels.org.org and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divides.
This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be.
With that, my friend, I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
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