You Can’t Name Injustice Without Knowing What Justice Is – DTH Episode 338 with John Adams

Wednesday, October 21, 2026

Show Notes

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Most of us talk about injustice all the time. Far fewer of us stop to ask what justice actually is. John Adams has spent years with that question, first reading the great books in hotel rooms between deals, then translating them into games and puzzles as a youth pastor, and now in his novel, The Third Phase.

The book grew out of a conversation with his daughters on their annual trip to New York. They were frustrated with the political divisiveness around them, so John challenged them to describe the world as it ought to be. Their answer became the blueprint for a utopian thriller that follows a multi-ethnic team of characters across the globe as they confront real injustice, while carrying the wisdom of Plato, Augustine, and Aquinas into every situation.

Key Themes

•      You can’t name injustice without a standard for justice. John walks through how Socrates pressed people beyond examples to actual definitions, and why the argument that justice is simply whatever the strong decide may describe how the world often works, but not how it ought to work.

•      Morals that are purely subjective stop being morals. John’s main character, Carlos, faces this head-on when a cause he’s championed commits violence he can’t defend. As he writes in his journal, if everyone makes up their own rules, there are no rules.

•      Real villains usually think they’re the good guys. John deliberately avoided cardboard antagonists. Wilk adds that many people who do harm aren’t evil, just convinced the ends justify the means, which is a useful lens for how we view people on the other side of almost any divide.

•      What we take in shapes what we put out. Wilk and John talk about algorithms built to keep us scared and outraged, and the case for spending a little less time on soundbites and more time with the wisest voices across history.

•      Writing a better world shows you the gap. While researching dystopias from Orwell to Huxley, John realized that imagining utopia forced him to see how far we really are from it.

Takeaways

•      Before arguing about whether something is unjust, ask what you mean by justice. Shared definitions are where real conversation starts.

•      Hope and honesty can sit together. As John’s daughter Amanda put it after finishing the book, she felt hope and despair at the same time, and that tension is worth holding.

•      Audit your inputs. If your feed is mostly outrage, your view of the world will be too.

•      A free companion guide, built for book clubs and deeper study, is available at thethirdphasenovel.com. John also offers live Q&A sessions with book clubs.

About John C. Adams

John Adams has spent more than 30 years in investment banking, including time with Morgan Stanley and Lazard and as a founding partner of CMD Global Partners. His work has taken him across six continents, with deep experience in China, and he splits his year between the United States and Europe. A former youth pastor and lifelong student of philosophy and theology, John is the father of five grown children. The Third Phase is his novel with Skyhorse Publishing.

Learn more about and connect with John:

Website: https://thethirdphasenovel.com

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Show Transcript

Transcript is AI Generated and may contain errors

[00:00:00:00] Wilk Wilkinson: A couple of years ago, John Adams was in New York with his grown daughters, and they were frustrated with where the world is headed. So he asked them a simple question then how audit to be when they finished. He told them they had just written their own version of Plato's Republic. Their answer?

Dad, someone should write a book about that. So he did with spies. Stick with me. Welcome back, my friends, to the Derate the Hate podcast.

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I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful, Derate the Hate episode. Let's get to it. Here's a question most of us skip right past. If we can't say what justice is.

How do we know what injustice is when we see it? We call things unfair every day. We argue about it constantly. But the measuring stick underneath all that arguing.

We rarely stop to look at it. My guest today has been chewing on that question for a very long time. John Adams spent his career in investment banking, working on deals across six continents. Somewhere around age 29, he started spending his nights in hotel rooms reading Plato, Augustine and Aquinas.

Later, as a youth pastor, he turned those same ideas into treasure hunts and jeopardy games for junior high and high school kids. Now he's done it again, this time in a novel. The third phase follows a global team of characters through the Middle East, Latin America, China, Africa, and the United States, wrestling with real injustice along the way. It's got chase scenes and assassins, sure, but underneath it is a serious question about truth, morality, and whether we can still find common ground on things that matter most.

We're going to talk about why story can reach people where argument can't. What you learn about the world by trying to write a better one, and what we're feeding our minds every day. Let's get into it with my friend John Adams. Here we go.

John Adams. Welcome to the Derate the Hate podcast. It is very good to see you today.

[00:03:44:08] John Adams: Thank you. Wilk, I’m Delighted to be here.

[00:03:47:03] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, I'm excited for the conversation. I'm excited to to to learn more about you, John. And the work that you've, you've done and the book that you've now written called The Third Phase. it's a novel that centers around a number of different people and and a number of different injustices and, and, and just global calamities, and, and there's a there's a lot in here that, that is very interesting. So I want to get into into that. But before that, John, I want to, let the listeners know a little bit about you. I know, from from what I've been able to find out. You're you're you're not naturally just an author. you are a an investment banker, a youth pastor, a student of philosophy, student of the world, so to speak. You do a lot of travel, and so so let's get into that. John. First of all, let's talk a little bit about, about you and what what ultimately led to you writing this book, the third phase.

[00:04:49:16] John Adams: Okay. Thank you. Well, I spent my career as an investment banker, and, I have five children who are now grown. And that becomes relevant when we talk about the, the the original idea for the book, which really came from my daughters. But I had a spiritual awakening, I'll call it, when I was about 29. During my 20s, I was 100% focused on career and I. After that point, I started to really be very curious about the rest of the world, about history and philosophy and theology and and reading the great books. So that's what I did as I was flying around the world working on mergers and acquisitions. You know, I'd curl up in my hotel and, and read Plato or Augustine or Aquinas. And so as my kids started getting a little older, I became the youth pastor at our church. So I was the youth pastor during their formative years. And one of the things I would do is to take lessons from the great books, which can be complex and, you know, academically daunting sometimes. And I come up with stories and games and even puzzles to try to convey those thoughts in a way that teenagers could understood. So, all these years later, my daughters suggested that I write a book along the same lines. So that's that's really the origin of the third phase.

[00:06:12:23] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. that's fantastic. And and, well, just the fact that you, you've tried to break down the, the works of Plato and Aquinas and things like that for, for your daughter. I mean, I've tried to read that stuff myself, and I'm good with a lot of the main lessons, especially if I have somebody help me break them down. But, that that it's such. I mean, there's so much wisdom there. There's so much importance in going back through history and looking at at some of these great works. John. What? Just talk talk real quick before we get deeper into the book, talk about some of these great lessons, some of the things that, said you you turn these into puzzles or, or things that your daughters could better understand. Give me a couple of examples, because I would really love to to see how that worked.

[00:07:04:15] John Adams: Sure. Well, and I was really it it impacted my own children. But I was really talking about my role as a youth pastor. So I'd have, you know, 50 or 60 junior high or high school students and I, and I'm trying to get them to focus on really fundamental questions like that, Socrates ask, you know, what? What is justice? How do you define it? What is virtue? Why are those important? What are what are values? You know, when we say something is better than something else, what measuring stick do we have to even, say something is better or worse, right? Like. Like C.S. Lewis said, you you have to have a best in mind to be able to talk about better or worse. And so, so, you know, I just I tried to come up with a lot of clever way sometimes we'd be playing jeopardy. Sometimes I'd have I'd have a treasure hunt where the kids are going all over the church finding things and, and but the message along the way. Or messages from Aquinas. But they didn't. I never used that word. I never used the a word.

[00:08:06:23] Wilk Wilkinson: Right? Right.

[00:08:08:17] John Adams: Because then that would, you know, cause them to back off. So that that was kind of what I did it. So also all these years later, my, my daughters and I were we have an annual Broadway show trip. Okay. Now that they're in their late 20s, we still take a long weekend and go to New York, which for dad is just beyond a dream. And we were there two years ago, about two years ago right now. And my daughters were really kind of unhappy with how the world is going. And just in general, all the political divisiveness, it seems to be getting worse in their mind. And from my perspective it is as well. So they so they, they I said, well, let's, let's I'd like you guys to work as a team to, to to describe the ideal world. You're saying the world is not how it ought to be. And that's clearly true. But so how, how, how ought it to be? Right. And so I would ask them questions and they kind of constructed this ideal world. And I said, well, girls, you realize you you just did your own version of Plato's Republic. And they said, dad, someone should write a book about that. And I said, well, someone did. Plato. Said, well, wait, wait. They said, no, dad, you know, like a real book, you know, with with assassins and spies and chase scenes and all that.

[00:09:24:19] Wilk Wilkinson: Okay.

[00:09:25:10] John Adams: And they said, you you could do that, dad. You could do like we used to do in the youth group and and write that book. And so it was sort of a before me and I said, okay, I'll do that. So I just spent two years doing that.

[00:09:37:20] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. And that's awesome. And that's one of the things that I wanted to get into, John was, was, you know, a lot of these lessons In the, in the age of instant gratification and everything's got to be exciting and everything. It's very hard to convey some of these lessons right in, in a way that people are really going to take them. So that's one of the things that I was wondering when I was looking at this was, was what what helped you decide to go fiction versus nonfiction? And, and so I'm glad this brought this came up in terms of, of the way that your daughters brought it to you was what's kind of the spies and assassins and everything else. It's like, okay, well, yeah, real life is often a little drier than than fiction. Right. But, so so we'll get into that a little bit deeper. But but let's, as we do that, I want to and I think it's awesome that your daughters brought this idea to you and how what was the inspiration? Because I know the the book follows the lives of, of of a handful of different characters. Carlos being one, Rosie being another. What? Talk to me about the character development here a little bit, John. And and how you decided because. Well, here here's the thing is, is, you know, you're you're pointing out a world of of injustices, but you do it through a number of different storylines instead of just one, which I think is, is, is very good, giving more people options for, for to see themselves in the story that's being told, I think is fantastic. Talk to me about the character development. And out of a world that is is really flooded with a lot of injustices. How did you pick these individual storylines and start to build those out?

[00:11:30:00] John Adams: Sure. My well, every, every one of the main characters in the book, really on the protagonist and antagonist side has a symbolic meaning. So, for example, my main character's name is Carlos Smith. Smith. Not by accident because he is a representative of of all of humanity. So Carlos is is a multi-ethnic individual. He has a his four grandparents are, a Colombian woman married to a Palestinian man who moved to Latin America. And then his other grandparents are a black American married to a Chinese woman. So he he he represents all of humanity just through his own ethnicity.

[00:12:16:22] Wilk Wilkinson: okay.

[00:12:17:05] John Adams: And so the story starts, his his storyline starts. He's ten years old, he's in Bolivia, his parents are missionaries, and he's living in a very poor area of Bolivia. And but it turns out he is an incredible athlete who sort of becomes the the Lionel Messi of the world. And through his world fame, he ultimately later in the in the book, gets a political platform. Then there's a woman who escapes from Iran when she's 14, her grandfather is Mossad and her name is Azadi, which is the Persian word for freedom. So she represents freedom. And and then there's another woman who, the Rosie character you mentioned. She she represents Plato, and she kind of educates Carlos. And they they and a couple other people become my team of protagonists. So they're sort of like my Avengers. But instead of having supernatural skills and abilities, they have, I'll call it supernatural insight, if you will. And that's that's where we start to bring in the the wisdom of the ages, the, the Plato, Augustine, Aquinas through how they operate. But they have these adventures around the world. And and, you know, the setting is, is in the Middle East and Latin America and China and America and Africa, kind of in that order. As, as, you know, some of the different flaws in those each of those parts of the world, very much, including the United States, are brought to the to the forefront. And then they they address them again, all all the while, at the surface level, there are exploding planes and chase scenes and kidnapings and and all of that.

[00:14:02:04] Wilk Wilkinson: Right? Right. And you these are all places. This is not just something that that you've seen from a bird's eye view. This is these are places where you've been, you've worked in these areas. So, you've seen a lot of these different things and, and, and have a good way to, I think describe and and and build out that that narrative based on personal experience. Is that right?

[00:14:28:14] John Adams: Yeah. That's that's very. Much the case. I, my job had me all over the world. I've worked in all six of the populated continents extensively. I lived in Europe in the 90s. I actually have EU residency, so I spend about four months a year in Europe and in eight months in the U.S., even for the for the last 15 years. But but yes, I worked on Middle East and Latin America, Australia and extensively in China for the last 20 years. So during the course of that, I've worked on transactions, of course, but I've spent a lot of time with people, you know, I've had I've had hundreds of dinners with people in those locations, with people who have become friends. And we talk about these things. What do you what do you think about God? What? You know, I'll sit down with people in China. You know what what what how much did you know about the concept of God when you were 12 years old? And how is that evolved? So I've had those kind of conversations and all all of that has has gone into this book.

[00:15:26:00] Wilk Wilkinson: And I'm assuming that all those, those life experiences have, along with your readings of, Plato and and Socrates and those has, has definitely shaped your perception of what, what justice means, what, what global injustice looks like and, and the different things. So, so let's talk about that. Let's talk about let's dig a little bit deeper into the, the back and forth of justice and injustice, because I think what a lot of people are seeing in the world today, John. And, and, is, is just all of these different things. And, and you had mentioned earlier in this conversation that that a lot of times in order to in order to understand what injustice is, you have to have a pretty good insight as to what justice is and what that means to you. You know, going back to the the ancient readings, right? Is, is we think about, What does justice mean to a person because, you know, or we we really can't define what injustice is if we don't truly know what justice is. so let's get into that justice versus injustice, what that means to a person. And because I think all too often you ask, you know, you ask a person. What an injustice is or, or you get into the conversation with somebody and this is part of the culture. wars thing is, you know, you hear somebody saying, well, I'm a social justice warrior or, you know, social justice is is my is my cause. That's what I'm working for. Well, okay. Well, some people think that justice doesn't need a qualifier. Justice is justice. And, if if you know, one person's social injustice or social justice is another person's injustice. Talk to me about that dynamic, because I'm really interested to get your feel on that.

[00:17:26:02] John Adams: Well. In the Republic, the first two, they're called books. They're ten books. They're really chapters.

Socrates is having these conversations with different people and asking them to define justice. And what they, they start out doing is just giving examples. And he said, well, well, yeah, that's an example. But that's not a definition.

You know, I want I want a definition so that I know I look, I can look at something and say every time that happens that's justice. And they, they and what you find is it's very, very difficult to define terms like that or a term like virtue. And then they, they go down this path of saying, well, you know, one of one of them says, well, justice is whatever the strong decides that it is. Okay.

And, you know, we all dismiss that very quickly as well. Not that's not right. But then look at how the world works. Right.

As a practical matter, you know, that's that's Machiavelli, right? That that is, in fact, how our world works, the strong and powerful. And I mean, I mean that, you know, militarily strong decide what what to label justice. But Socrates whole point is, well, no, no, no, that's that's not it.

That's not it. Right. And so ultimately you get to a point and this is, this is one of the punch lines of my book that, that you have to you have to acknowledge that there's higher truth. You know, if you're if you're sort of a deterministic materialist that thinks that there's nothing really going on here except molecules bouncing off each other in the void, then there there are no values.

There are only facts. Yeah. And so that's that's the first thing you have to realize is that if I believe in values, if I believe that love is better than hate, which sounds like a ridiculous thing to even say, but okay, why, why and when you and when you dig down, you see that that means that there is some higher truth. There's more going on here that meets the eye.

And that's that's when you start to see this, this measuring stick. That's right. See what is justice. Yeah.

[00:19:32:06] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. No. And that's exactly what I wanted to get into because, that, that, you know, when we, you know, I think about different lines and some people think of them as, as throwaway lines, but in the movie escapes me right now. But but, you know, I've heard it was I don't know what the movie is, but Guy says, you know, well, what is truth? And the guy, the other guy says, well, the truth is what I say. The truth is, you know, the truth is what I say it is. And people will look at examples today in our modern politics or, or our modern media and like, well, that's not true. They said, well, it's my truth. No, no, we got to get bigger. We gotta we gotta come to a common term or a common definition of what this term is. And when we think about justice. Right. Or, you know, that common set of facts of, of what justice is. And then we have to I mean, civil societies, I think, depend on good definitions to these these common core things. What is truth? What is love? What is beauty? How do we, you know, how do we end up determining, you know, not just what we believe, but why we believe it? Otherwise, if everything's, you know, subjective, if everything is just, you know, what the next what the next generation defines it as. That's what that's how we end up with global injustice, in my opinion, John.

[00:21:03:03] John Adams: That's right. Well, like my my Carlos character, my main character. So his parents are missionaries. But like, like many young people do, they rebel against the values of their parents. Okay. So he kind of rejects all of that stuff and heads out in his life and he becomes rich and famous and he gets focused on money and power and building his brand. And he's he's kind of an arrogant jerk in his 20s. But then later, a little bit later, because of his Palestinian background, I said one of his grandparents was Palestinian, so his his mother was half Palestinian. He really leans into that and becomes a global advocate for the Palestinian cause. And he's working with them and he's trying to help them. And then they they they do a horrible terrorist attack. And it's very embarrassing for him. And so, so he's asking the so he keeps a journal throughout the, the, the book, you know, about maybe a fifth of the book or so is, is his journal entries, which is a way to both carry the narrative forward in addition to normal narration. But it's how you get into his inner monologue. And and so he's saying, well, you know, they're justifying doing this, but it's horrible. They just murdered a bunch of people. And I think they set back our cause. They embarrass me. So, you know, some people say that morals are relative, but if if they're relative then or subjective, then we're just then everyone gets to make up their own rules. And if everybody makes up their own rules, then there are no rules. So he has that that sort of moral dilemma as he's as he's interacting with all these situations around the world, and he keeps coming back to these questions that lead him ultimately to acknowledging a higher truth.

[00:22:47:00] Wilk Wilkinson: Nah. That's that's awesome. And and, you know, going to the idea again, just going to the idea that that this is, you know, fixing versus nonfiction and, you know, everything doesn't always play out exactly the way that we would love it to in real life. So, so being able to develop these characters and, and build, build that narrative arc into a, into a novel, what are some of the lessons, John, that, that people like? Obviously the work that I do is, is built strongly around human interaction and, and how we work together across difference and how we, you know, I don't think anybody at the end of the day, or most people, let's say the vast majority of people don't want to build their life around a a society filled with chaos and injustice. They don't. And I think. Most people can agree on that. What are some of the lessons? But a lot of people right now think that this world is just nothing but chaos and injustice. I don't think that. And I think we're we're better than that. But what are some of the things in this book, John, that people can, you know, take away when they when they read this book and they, they start going through and, and start to develop a, a bond or a relationship with Rosie or Zai or Zadeh. Gabriela, these folks, Carlos, what are some of the things that they're going to be able to take away from this book in terms of, of, of hopefulness and, and kind of that better understanding of morality and justice and truth.

[00:24:29:08] John Adams: Well, one of the themes that comes through in the book is that as they're having all these interactions around the world, and this is a global team. I mean the core team of five people are a Latin American, somebody from Iran, somebody from China. And then a Rosie is a half black, half Hispanic, natural born citizen in Miami. So it's a very multi-ethnic group, but they're still learning as they do these things around the world.

And one of the one of the themes that comes up is that fundamentally, we're all the same worldwide. And I truly believe that, you know, based on, as we talked about earlier, my conversations with people all over the world, we all want the same things. We're all we're all trying to create who we are. We're all trying to be good people.

You know, we want fundamentally the same things for ourselves and our families and our communities. And yes, culture and tradition get layered on top of that and that, and that starts to complicate the world. But I really believe that fundamentally, we're all the same. I really believe we're all one family and that that that comes through in the book.

The plot kind of leads you there. The other thing I would say is, in terms of your question about hope, is this book is a utopia. You know, we I told you it started with my girls spending two hours deciding how the world ought to look. And so I had that in mind.

And I created this narrative plot to to get us there within one person's lifetime. So the world is very, very, very different by the end of the book. But the funny thing is that, you know, when you're writing a you, a utopia, you, you really start to focus on how bad things really are. You know, because I.

One of the things I did was I went back and I read all of the, the dystopias, right. Going back to Thomas Moore even. But you know, obviously Orwell and Zamyatin and Huxley and several others and, and you know, I and I thought, gosh, if you're writing a dystopia like they were as you're writing, you must be saying, well, surely could never get this bad, right?

[00:26:32:17] Wilk Wilkinson: Right, right, right.

[00:26:34:12] John Adams: I mean, even George Orwell had to think about this. This, you know, this doublespeak stuff. Hope that never happens, you know?

[00:26:41:08] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. That's right.

[00:26:43:05] John Adams: Sort of is now anyway. But but as you're writing a utopia, you realize, gosh, we are far from that. So I realize I'm, I'm I'm like, I'm like those characters in the dystopias where I'm waking up to the fact that things are a lot worse than I thought.

[00:26:57:14] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and that's, you know, I, I and this is, this is one of those things, John, that, that I think about, you know, when I, when I'm looking, when I'm looking at a lot of the things that I have to look through and, you know, for the work that I do and, and everything else and spending time on social media, our perception becomes reality. And and if the only thing that we're ingesting is these dystopian novels or, or or, you know, in many ways I think social media for a lot of people has become a dystopia because they look at the they look at the, well, the algorithms promote anything that's going to, you know, trigger the amygdala and keep us, you know, scared, outraged and, and, and aggrieved and, and if that's what we're ingesting, I mean, a big part of our perception of the world is, is, is built around what we ingest for, for media and, and things like that. So, yeah, I absolutely see what you're saying. And.

[00:27:58:14] John Adams: You know what? To that point, one of the things I'm trying to encourage people to say, gosh, I should maybe spend a little less time on, you know, TikTok soundbites and a little more time trying to see what like the five smartest people of the last 30 centuries had to say, you know, yeah, maybe that's a better use of time.

[00:28:18:06] Wilk Wilkinson: I think that's a lot better use of time. No, that's a lot better use of time, you know. And that brings up an incredible point, John, is, you know, there's that old phrase and some people think it's very cliche, but I think it's very true is, you know, you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with, right? So if you are spending your time with people who are constantly negative, constantly dystopian, constantly, constantly focused on on all of the injustices that are happening in the world as opposed to the many, many great things that are happening in the world. You know, if you're spending your time with those that that focus on all those things that separate us as human beings as opposed to those that that see us all as one big human family, right. The changes your perception of things. It changes the way that you view the world. And it will also change the way that you the output that you put out into the world. Isn't that right?

[00:29:16:00] John Adams: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and look, Paul said in one of the epistles, you know, to be very careful what you put in your mind.

[00:29:24:18] Wilk Wilkinson: Right, right.

[00:29:25:14] John Adams: And that is just absolutely spot on advice for us right now because as you just said, we're we're putting tons of stuff, you know, bad things in our minds with social media and, you know, and again, back to Socrates. Socrates always came back to education. Yeah. And I don't mean that in the sense of formal education. I'm talking about learning what it is to be a soul and what the what what is purpose and meaning and that kind of education. And we are we're getting ever further from that, that kind of focus.

[00:30:00:06] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. And I think we do need to, you know, to quote one of my, my favorite, thinkers and authors, Stephen Covey, is we got to be sharpening the saw. We got to be putting, good things in if we expect to take good things out So this book, the third phase, as we, you know, kind of kind of round out our, our time here. John, I'm, I'm thinking about this book and all the, all the great things and, and I love the idea of blending, entertainment and, obviously the spies and the assassins and everything else that, you know, that's, that's a, that's that's definitely a, a way to keep people engaged, to keep the, keep the, the heart rate up and, and but I'm seeing some really.

[00:30:44:10] John Adams: Are doing these bad things. But, but they're doing them for they're, they're doing them for reasons and and and they think they're, they think they're doing good things, but they're not, which is how. Yeah. You know, real villains are you know, I tried to make them not just cardboard villains that are being bad for the sake of it. You know, they're not Doctor Evil. They're they're they're like real people who are making these real decisions. But when you get unpack why it's always this lack of moral compass, right?

[00:31:10:10] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. Well, and I think there's a very strong reality in that because I, I don't choose to believe that every person who does bad things happens to be an evil person. I think a lot of times people. You know, they, they whether it's an end justify the means mentality or it's a, I truly believe in this cause, I mean, there's tons of examples of, you know, you think about climate activists and things like that. These people think that ultimately what they're doing is, is the right thing, is the good thing for the for the overall cause. But they end up doing something very bad. And, and, you know, sometimes people realize that sometimes don't. They don't, you know, I, you know, I, I choose to believe because of my faith that at some point we all have to answer for those things. And, and, people just better be able to answer the questions in the right way, I imagine. Right. But what are your, And this is this is how I would love to to kind of finish this. Your, your daughters inspired you to to write this book. You know, they they're the ones that that were the catalyst for getting getting this ball rolling. John. Have have they read the book? Have some of them read the book? What are their thoughts? Is this is this what they had imagined? Is this what they had envisioned when when you guys were making that Broadway trip to New York and you guys were talking about this book?

[00:32:39:10] John Adams: Yes, yes. And I'll give you a quote from from my daughter Amanda. She said when she put it down, she said, I feel such hope and despair at the same time. Hope that we're we're so close to having a better world, but despair because I know humans and even though we're so close, we're going to screw it up somehow. I said, you know what? That's exactly what I was going for.

[00:33:08:05] Wilk Wilkinson: So yeah. Yeah, well that's wonderful. Well, John Adams, the book is the third phase. It follows these incredible characters, a book of of injustice and and battles and, and ultimately a utopian, utopian finish. I think people should check it out. Third phase will have we'll make sure the links to the book and things are in the show notes for this episode. Is there anything else that, any ways that that people can get Ahold of you if they want to find out more about you, John?

[00:33:37:22] John Adams: Well, my website has gone live recently, and so there's background on me. I've, I've, I've written a companion guide, which is partly for book clubs, but it's actually much more expensive than that. I actually have created what I think is more like a college textbook based on the book, and that's free. That's a free download that you'll get, you know, through through Amazon or, or directly from my website. So I'd encourage people to go there. And I also offer up to have live Q&A sessions with book clubs and things like that. So the website is the third phase novel.com.

[00:34:11:22] Wilk Wilkinson: The third phase novel.com. We will have it in the show. Notes. John Adams, I do appreciate you, man. This is a great. And I've enjoyed it.

[00:34:21:03] John Adams: Okay, thanks. Bye bye.

[00:34:24:00] Wilk Wilkinson: Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate The Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together. So please take a moment to visit Braver angels.org and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divide. This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friend, I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.