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Episode 300 of Derate The Hate arrives at a moment when many Americans feel exhausted, cynical, or tempted to disengage altogether.
This conversation pushes gentlyâbut firmlyâagainst that instinct.
In this special anniversary episode, host Wilk Wilkinson sits down with Maury Giles, CEO of Braver Angels, for an honest, grounded discussion about what this moment actually asks of usânot as pundits or partisans, but as citizens.
This isnât a conversation about hot takes or political wins.
Itâs about agency, responsibility, trust, and the courage required to stay engaged when it would be easier to walk away.
What does citizenship require of us when outrage is profitable, trust is fragile, and disengagement feels tempting?
Wilk and Maury argue that the answer isnât louder voices, stronger tribes, or scorched-earth politics.
The answer is courageous citizenship.
Throughout this episode, courageous citizenship is framed not as an abstraction, but as a daily discipline:
Choosing to act instead of react
Taking responsibility for the one thing we fully controlâourselves
Engaging across difference without surrendering conviction
Resisting both burnout and recklessness
Building trust locally, not performatively online
Courageous citizenship lives in the space between:
â Cowardice (checking out, giving up, disengaging)
â Recklessness (burn it down, consequences be damned)
And instead chooses:
â Disciplined courage
â Personal accountability
â Constructive engagement
Wilk and Maury speak candidly about a challenge rarely addressed openly in the depolarization space:
the absence of red and conservative voices.
This episode makes clear:
You cannot bridge if one side isnât present
Depolarization fails if itâs perceived as ideological softening or moral surrender
Civic repair requires deeply held convictions at the table, not watered-down agreement
Both Wilk and Maury speak from lived experience as conservatives working in a space often misunderstood as âsquishy,â âKumbaya,â or ideologically tilted.
Their message is simple and firm:
You donât repair a constitutional republic by asking people to stop believing things.
You repair it by teaching people how to disagree without tearing the country apart.
One of the strongest throughlines in this episode is the idea that real civic repair does not start on social media.
Wilk and Maury emphasize:
National outrage is loud but rarely constructive
Local action is quieterâbut transformative
Trust is rebuilt face-to-face, not through feeds
Courageous citizenship shows up when people:
Work alongside neighbors they donât agree with
Solve tangible problems together
Carry those shared efforts to local leaders and institutions
This is where democracy stops being theoretical and starts being lived.
The conversation also looks aheadâto the coming 250th anniversary of the United Statesâand the Braver Angels convention theme:
â1776â2026: A Pledge Renewed.â
Wilk and Maury reflect on a part of American history we rarely emphasize enough:
The Declaration of Independence wasnât just a declaration of freedomâit was a declaration of interdependence.
The founders pledged:
Their lives
Their fortunes
Their sacred honor
Not to a party.
Not to a faction.
But to one another.
This episode challenges listeners to consider whether we still understand citizenship that way.
One of the most sobering moments in the conversation comes when both acknowledge this:
Our political dysfunction is not just a leadership problem.
It is a reflection of us.
Congress, media incentives, and cultural division donât exist in a vacuum.
They respond to what citizens reward, tolerate, and amplify.
Courageous citizenship begins with the uncomfortable but necessary question:
What is my role in what weâre becoming?
This episode is not a victory lap.
Itâs not a diagnosis without a prescription.
Itâs a reminder.
That the American experiment:
Was never meant to be easy
Was never meant to be comfortable
Was always meant to require courage
And that the future of democracy doesnât begin in Washingtonâit begins with us.
đ Braver Angels: https://braverangels.org
đ¤ Maury Giles on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maurygiles
đ Follow the work of Derate The Hate: https://deratethehate.com
The world is a better place if we are better people. That begins with each of us as individuals. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for all youâve got. Make every day the day that you want it to be!
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The Derate The Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels â Americaâs largest grassroots, cross-partisan organization working toward civic renewal and bridging partisan divides. Learn more: BraverAngels.org
Welcome to the Derate The Hate Podcast!
*The views expressed by Wilk, his guest hosts &/or guests on the Derate The Hate podcast are their own and should not be attributed to any organization they may otherwise be affiliated with.
Transcript is AI generated and may contain errors
[00:00:00:00] Wilk Wilkinson: This is episode 300 of Direct the Heat. That's right, folks, 300 weeks in a row that I've published an episode. And if there's ever been a moment in this country that demanded something more than outrage, more than cynicism, more than just checking out, it's right now. Today's conversation is about courageous citizenship, personal agency, and why the future of this country doesn't start in Washington. It starts with us. Stick with me. Welcome back, my friends, for the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross. partisan organization working towards civic renewal. This podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ. Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the Hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Share it with a friend and visit BraverAngels.org to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partisan divide. Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it. This is a special one. Episode 300, and I couldn't imagine marking this moment with anyone else. Today I'm joined by Maury Giles, CEO of Braver Angels, the nation's largest grassroots cross partisan group, leading the depolarization movement. Maury and I both came out of long careers in the private sector, and we now find ourselves working full time in the civic renewal and bridge building space at a moment when our country desperately needs it. In this conversation, we talk honestly about toxic polarization, burnout, trust, and why outrage entrepreneurs profit when citizens surrender their agency. We dig into what Braver Angels means when we talk about courageous citizenship not as a slogan, but as a discipline. This isn't about changing your deeply held beliefs. It's about reclaiming responsibility for how we show up. How we engage across difference and how local action done together can still shape the future of this great American experiment. This is a hopeful conversation, a challenging one, and I think, a necessary one. Let's get into it with my friend Maury Giles. Here we go. Maury Giles, welcome to the Derate the Hate podcast, man. Episode 300, of our regularly scheduled weekly podcast. And you are my guest today. Thank you so much, man.
[00:03:41:02] Maury Giles: Thank you. And, man, what an honor. 300, 300 for 50. We're 50 ahead of the anniversary of the country. So you're you're you're you're going. Man.
[00:03:50:10] Wilk Wilkinson: I, I've been doing this a while, and, and when I got to thinking about it and I got to thinking about the 300th weekly episode, I was thinking about it and said. You know what? I've got to make this one big. We're in a big year, for the country. We're in a big year for Braver Angels. For whom both you and I work now. And, and I thought about it, and I thought, Maury Giles is going to be my guest for the 300 300th episode. And I'm grateful to have you here.
[00:04:21:16] Maury Giles: And, well, I really appreciate it, Wilk, it's an honor. And I love what you do. And I love to be able to be working with you. And ever since I first met you as a as a delegate to the convention in, Gettysburg, I think. And, weren't you holding the the gavel at the at that convention?
[00:04:38:00] Wilk Wilkinson: I was holding the gavel. Yeah, it was the, 20, 23 Braver Angels National Convention co-chair. I was the red co-chair for that convention. And, yeah, that was an honor as well. And that was good. Good to meet you there. And so many of our great, Braver Angels colleagues for the first time there that year. And, and, looking forward to the one that we got coming up this year.
[00:04:58:10] Maury Giles: Yeah. Philadelphia. I can't wait.
[00:05:01:11] Wilk Wilkinson: I cannot wait either. And that's, and we're going to talk a little bit about that, today, Marty, because, there's so many things going on in the world of Braver Angels right now. There's so many things going on, in terms of our country and what toxic polarization is doing to us. You know, we the people, and the work that we're doing together, I, I feel blessed to be able to do this work. Just to be able to do this work, but then to be able to do this work with the great people, that we get to do it with, it's a blessing to me. And you and I both came on as staff here, around the middle of last year, and, started doing this, full time. You and you and I both came out of of a corporate world. I was in operations management, and and what I want to, I want to talk a little bit about is, you know, what led you to this work? And how are kind of how how you're taking the skill set that you had from the business world, and, and now are kind of implementing that into this depolarizing bridge building work, that we are now doing together here at Braver Angels. My.
[00:06:24:17] Maury Giles: Yeah. Well, thanks will kind. I appreciate the question because to me, you know, a year ago, if you'd asked me what I'd be doing right now, I don't think in a million years I would have guessed this. But now that I'm here doing it, I just feel like I know this is where I need to be. And the people that I'm working with, are the people I know they need to be working with. But for me, it was a journey of a 30 plus year career of studying people and understanding how to connect with them. And how do you resonate with them, not just persuade, but resonate. And when you resonate, you amplify something they're in pursuit of in their lives. And I spent 30 years working with corporations and nonprofits and others around the world on helping them take their message and their product or their service and figure out how do you really connect with people and through your advertising, your marketing, through your experience design? And and I loved it. I loved it because it was about people. It was about understanding people. And I got to travel the world and experience that. But at some point over the last decade, but certainly the last five years, I was feeling this essence in my life of like, okay, I'm doing I'm good at my job not selling egotistical, but I'm good at my job. I know what I'm doing, but what difference am I making in society for my kids and my future grandkids and what have you? And so I started looking for more clients that I could because I was always involved in business development or or helping bring in accounts and consulting. I'm like, well, you know, if I can just find more clients I can bring in to where I'm working that are working on stuff that I know it's better than I can. I can scratch that itch of like, hey, what difference am making? And so I did that and I got to work with people like the National Constitution Center, AARP, you know, a lot of these different organizations that are trying to do different things to help society, but it it still didn't feel enough. And so I started volunteering and things and Braver Angels was one of them. Started in 2020. And, that fed that fed my soul. I was like, okay, I love this. And anytime I had extra time, I was jumping in and doing workshops and in trying to get involved in Utah, where I live now and and then when the door opened and they saw that they were looking for a leader, as David Blankenhorn was stepping down with the nudge of a few people within the organizations and with the and really following the confirmation of my heart, I was like, I got it. I got at least throw my hat in the ring for this. And so I felt, quite frankly, for me being really transparent. I got called to it. I felt I felt like, okay, this is what I need to be doing. And so where my skill sets to your second part of your question is, I feel like understanding people for all these years and understanding how you figure that out, being able to do it with our group, you know, we the first week I was I was in this position, as you know, we talked with 500 different volunteers and these 90 minute sessions over a week or seven of them. And and I was just like, oh, this is incredible. Like doing what I've done for my career. But here and then, then we had our offsite, we had our leadership group and and try to decipher, okay. And synthesize everything I've been doing. And so it's been really hitting on a lot of my skills as of like, okay, trying to pull together. But then it's also been very humbling of recognizing the complexity of this challenge, the difficulty of how do you how do you make something accessible to enough people that you're big enough? What we're making a movement that we can have an impact on society, but do it also where our membership base, they don't agree with each other. By design, by design.
[00:10:05:13] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah.
[00:10:06:02] Maury Giles: By design. And so it's it's a fascinating challenge and I and I and I'm loving it. I'll say it's stressful at times. And so I'm learning how to manage my stress better. And and and learning how to turn it off sometimes. Because what do you do in the thing that you were I'm sure you kind of feel this, like the thing that you did when you had spare time is the thing you do all the time.
[00:10:26:05] Wilk Wilkinson: That's right.
[00:10:27:00] Maury Giles: That translates into all the time. How do you how do you turn it off? And so I'm working on how to turn it off.
[00:10:33:22] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. You and me both. This so, so many on the podcast know my story. I was in operations management for so long, and and this is something that I've been doing on the side for, you know, five going on six years. And, you're absolutely right. My wife will attest to this, and I, you know, your wife Jodi will attest to this as well, that that this is that one thing that that we are so passionate about, that it is hard to turn it off. It is hard to know, when to say, okay, I've been doing this all day. It's, it's, you know, now it's time to step away. Step away from the screen. Step away from the phone. Step away from all the different, but but the one thing, and the one thing that I will say, and it's something my, my, my dad used to tell me all the time before he passed is no matter where you go, you can't get away from yourself. And and when something like this is, such a passion like it is for me, like it is for you. Marie, it's, you know, you just it is hard to to get away from it. And then to think about the gravity of the moment that we're in.
[00:11:46:16] Maury Giles: That's a.
[00:11:47:10] Wilk Wilkinson: You know, in terms of what our country, what our country is, what our country always has been and what our country is becoming. In terms of, a lot of people are hurting, right now. A lot of people are hurting as a result of, the one thing that we work so hard against that's toxic polarization. You know, we we look at the we look at things around us right now, and we see that there, you know, institutional trust, whether it be, in our government in general or the government agencies or our media, institutional trust is at an all time low. But as you and I both know very well, in order to live in a civilized society, my institutional trust has to be there. We have to have our institutions. We have to have trust in each other. So as you've come into the depolarization space full time, what what have you seen, so far that has kind of surprised you in terms of how the toxic polarization and how or how that's led to a distrust. And then I want to hear, a couple of things, you know, just in terms of of people. And then I want to kind of transition into the, the thing that we've been talking so much about and that's courageous citizenship and how we can use that concept of courageous citizenship to kind of reclaim that agency and rebuild that trust. So let's start with what are some of the things right off the bat that have have surprised you in the past six, seven months that you've been doing this full time?
[00:13:34:18] Maury Giles: Yeah. So a couple of things that come to mind. And one kind of starts from where we were just talking about the intensity of the issue and the passion and the getting involved in the burnout that I've there's been some surprising things that have been interesting to navigate within our own base of volunteers. It's it's been a wake up call for me to recognize that when you have a passionate group of people who jump in and want to do something, that you have to be really careful in the leadership role of the language you use, both to present the issues at play and then the call to action. And I've been driving this notion. I came in like, okay, clarity, urgency and dignity, you know, and and those are the really powerful ones. I still believe those are really strong in there. But what I've realized is that when we talk about the urgency with the people that are already passionate about getting involved in this, that there's a real need to be able to help, help people understand that the part you can control is within your own domain or within your own space, and knowing when to start and stop, and how to have the balance in your own life in pursuit of trying to address these things is really important because perspective matters and people get burnt out. And so I realized right away that with all the energy I was bringing forward, I also needed to give people permission to be human and recognize that I'm not. And then this is the part I think that really a focus is that the call to action isn't that you are single handedly changing society, but instead you single handedly are the one that has total control over what you do next in your own life. To choose to act instead of react. And that comes for those that are passionately in our movement right now, like not burning out, recognizing that, okay, stop and and reflect upon what can you do and what is your realm of influence and how far can you go and and not in controlling that. But even on the issue of just in general, when you're trying to talk about this issue and fixing it in society, knowing when and how to engage, when you're seeing things that you either are really opposed to and morally outraged about, or that someone is morally outraged at you because of a vote you cast, or what, what have you. A feeling like you've lost that sense of control. Those two things about recognizing just how far people will go of getting burnt out and trying to solve this themselves, and then the challenge of dealing with those problems had led me to this notion of, well, gosh, it's the real critical part is me and and starting there and starting with the individual. And I know we'll get more into that. I also think that it's been it's been interesting the use of words on, just I guess I knew this going in, but in our, you know, take take for example, we had the assassinations in Minnesota and then in Utah. And then we have what's happening in Minnesota right now, the way we've communicated about this and just how strong different words have taken over to drive tribal cues and tribal signals of my team. Your team, even within our own base of people, within Braver Angels, has been surprising to me of just how strong those are, which indicates to me the challenge that that we're facing for words of just being able to to talk about what's happening in a way that connects with people who have a have a more red outlook or a blue outlook, and understand that at the end of the day, the common thing we're trying to get to is how do you get out of the outrage cycle so that you can actually see clearly of what you're going to do next, instead of just what you're going to react to next? Those are a few things that come right out of the top of my head.
[00:17:20:08] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, and that's so hugely important. And and that's how I wanted to transition into our conversation about what courageous citizenship is. We we have we've been saying now for a few months that Braver Angels is in the business of courageous citizenship. And, one of the things that I have talked about since I started this podcast, you know, six years ago, is, you know, our ability, to, to react to things in the right way, to react to things that are outside of our control, personal accountability. But why that is so important and how that makes a difference in how we show up not only for the rest of the world, but for ourselves. Courageous citizenship, I think, encompasses that that personal accountability, personal responsibility thing so. Well, because, you know, I think about the the I think about the, the book a man's search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. We've talked you and I've talked about that a number of different times, but but that, that space between, the, the trigger and the response and where we're at there and, and when things start to happen in our country that are outside of our control, it's easy to step back and and say, well, there's nothing I can do about it, or I, you know, I am completely unable to make a difference anymore. So I'm going to completely check out and everything. And and for some people that maybe they have to do that. And I'm not going to downplay what people need to do personally for their own personal well-being, their mental health. Yeah, but there is a certain amount of courage that is going to be required from us as Americans, as American citizens, to stand up and say we are not powerless to affect change in the system in which we live. And a word that I'm hearing a lot, or a phrase that I'm hearing a lot lately, is this black pilled kind of defeatist attitude in that there's so much in the world, you know, the world is rigged, everything is rigged. It's outside of our control. We can't do anything. I don't believe it. I refuse to believe it. I refuse to believe it. I refuse to even give credence to that notion that a lot of those outrageous entrepreneurs are are spreading. Morrie, talk about courageous citizenship, what courageous citizenship really is, and how we start to reclaim our agency again in these things that that it's sometimes easier to just say, well, it's out of my control. I can't do anything. I don't believe you don't believe it. Let's talk.
[00:20:08:23] Maury Giles: There 100%. Well, and I think this has been the thing that's been the the most inspirational to see this develop through the process of how we all landed on the fact that this is our this is what we're all about. Because in life there's going to always be good and there's going to be bad, there's going to be pain, and there's going to be joy. There's going to be things that are around us that are happening to us. There's choices we make. Other people make choices. And in a society that matters in terms of the choices that we make to contribute to that. But simplifying it down to it's all rigged or it's this conspiracy or they or the government or the Democrats or the Republicans, and I can't do anything about it. That's one of the real challenges of, of the outrage cycle is that there is at least some people, as you've already mentioned, to this idea that I'm going to check out, and I'm just going to simplify the system. And like you said, maybe at times you need to for your own sanity and to do that. But that's one of the downsides. But I also believe it's one of the intentions of the conflict entrepreneurs that drive that is, a certain amount of checking out enables them to accomplish more and and get the extremes to fight more right. And the people in the Middle East, I can't do anything about it. The opposite side of the problem, right, is, is to actually go out in and just with complete outrage to be able to attack. It's kind of like this idea of shutting down or burning it down. And both of those operate well for the conflict entrepreneurs and the outrage cycle. A lot of people talk about the industrial outrage complex, right? There's a lot of money to be made, control to be amassed. If you can get people to shut down or or think they need to burn it down, courageous citizenship is operating in the middle there. It's operating in the part that that takes more courage and requires a sense of identity, of that citizenship that there is there are shared American ideals that are so powerful and so real that I personally believe are going to triumph in the end because we're going to choose them like our ancestors did, like those that found in this country. That and recognize that we need to own our part in it. I think of it also. And a friend of mine, Matthew Barnes, and we you know, we've read that book, The Power to Empower the Hero is having breakfast with him. When we were talking about this, and he brought up an idea, and I've been using it a lot, with his permission, to say, I love the idea. It's like on one hand you could say you don't want to respond with cowardice because cowardice is like, I don't have enough bravery, or I'm not standing up and doing what I need to do this right. But the other side of it, opposite of that, is actually going with recklessness where I don't care about anything. I'm just going full bore and consequences. Let them fall the way they are right now. Both of those are challenging. In the sweet spot in the middle is courage is saying no, okay, I'm going to be disciplined. I'm going to recognize that the one thing that I have 100% control of is my agency to act rather than react in this moment, at this time. And it starts with in my own head, we can't control the thoughts that come in and the things that hit us, but we can control what stays there, where we're going to live with it and what we're going to do with it in our relationships. Same thing. We can choose to act in support of those. And so courageous citizenship then, is recognizing that it starts with me and owning that part of it, and then intentionally engaging across difference to build together. And in a society that was created with a constitutional republic with democratic principles at its core, our founders knew that what we're calling courageous citizenship was essential for us to be able to thrive.
[00:23:59:11] Wilk Wilkinson: That's right.
[00:24:00:22] Maury Giles: And we need to take ownership of that in the in the one real hard part of this. There's a hard question that I've been challenging myself and others I talked with about this is that when you want to say, oh, we got to hold Congress accountable, oh, these are good. I agree we're getting help. But I think the deeper thing we have to acknowledge is that it's a reflection of us. That's right. The societal trends that we have and the systemic incentives that we have allowed to get to where they are today. Yes, there are other people who are exploiting them. But if any world, if any country in the world, there's an ownership of that and a reflection of its citizenry, it's us because of our system. And so we need to have a hard look in the mirror and say, okay, are we a little too selfish? Are we a little too self focused on what matters most to me rather than anybody else? Are we sacrificing the greater good at the to pursue something that really is just about my tribe or about my life? And it's an interesting dynamic, because I think a lot of people today want to just put the blame on the stuff that they see where the problems are, and I understand that. But if we're going to change it, we need to look in the mirror and say, well, wait a minute, what am I doing that I need to do differently? If enough of us do that, we will own our future, worthy of our posterity.
[00:25:23:22] Wilk Wilkinson: That's absolutely right. That's absolutely right. And the first step is always going to be recognition, in so many of these different, different problems that we face in the world today. The beginning is, is, is recognition, recognizing what the problem is. And then, you and I, we come from the world of business and operations, is always about root cause, problem solving. Looking at what the problem is, what our, our possible solutions, what are the downstream ramifications of this, of the solutions and then start to implement the, implement the fix from there. We don't see a lot of that, today. And instead, we just see far too many people hyper focused on, whether it be the things that they want, I think I think calling out the idea that, you know, the problems that we see in Congress or the problems we see in our media, the problem we see in our political landscape in general, is just a reflection of us. And when politicians spend all of their time trying to appease the loudest and angriest voices or the media, you know, the, new 24 hour news cycle is, is chasing, clicks and trying to sell soap. That outrage cycle, they see that it sells soap because those loudest voices, it it's it's all a reflection of of us. And if we as a society don't get back to the focusing on the we, and it's just constantly that us versus them with that wall of outrage in between, we're going to continue to get more of what we've what we've got.
[00:27:12:05] Maury Giles: Yeah. And I think that connection, that recognition of our own part of that is so important. But then the next step is once you have that realization, like we've been talking about, of that, I can choose to act instead of react. The next step of that is to then say, well, wait a minute, I can choose to act together locally and do it not just with people that I agree with, but more importantly with people that have different life experience or different perspectives, because that's where we get caught in that, in that dialog piece of it is, we assume that everyone chooses their opinions when they experience certain opinions, and we all want basically the same things. But the way we've experienced life leads us to different places of thinking of what the problem might be, what the solution might be. But when we stop talking, then being in community ceases to exist. And the only alternative you carry to an extreme becomes violence and then control and domination. So we need to choose at ourselves to to recognize that agency. But then engage together locally. And that's the other part we've recognized we're having to amp up within. Braver Angels is a local focus. Get our local alliances, our chapters to be able to be equipped of, okay, how do you go take on something and build together at the hyper local level? Because all this stuff that's going through the social media and all this, yes, there are bad things that are happening, but they are not real. The way we're seeing and experiencing on social media, that's insane. And it's just driving people crazy when they live in that space.
[00:28:42:08] Wilk Wilkinson: It is not representative of everybody's everyday life. It is, you know, I mean, there and it's it's here and there.
[00:28:48:09] Maury Giles: Exactly. But that in its everyday life where we need to be able to connect and start to build together and the and the part we're asking people to do. And when you have that transformative experience in your life is when you go do things together to try to solve something and take it to the elected officials, public officials. And then you start to look differently at public officials. Look at them as being on top, not on top. Yeah, they're there for us to take and bring healing. And that's when that starts happen. That's different than protesting. There's a place for protesting, but protesting is getting everybody you agree with and go doing something. it's a different proposition altogether to say I'm going to go find people who are right outside of my neighborhood, in my area, and I'm going to look for the ones that think differently than me, and we're going to come together and we're going to build together. That's harder but powerful.
[00:29:36:05] Wilk Wilkinson: It's absolutely, and it's hard. And that's why that's why I bring up the word trust here. And yeah, when we start to act, when we start to, you know, act locally within our communities It this is, again, part of that courageous citizenship journey to have the courage to trust yourself, the courage to trust your neighbor. when we find that mutual trust between ourselves and between them, and we can start to work together as a community, maybe we don't want all the same things. Maybe, we don't, you know, a lot of the outcomes I think that that people need, are the same. It's just a matter of how we're going to get there. That these things, it requires trust. It requires, the ability to to have faith in our neighbors. And and then that that kind of expands out. You mentioned earlier, Maury, you know, the red, blue, dynamic of of Braver Angels. People have heard me talk about it a lot of, a lot of times. But one of the bigger problems that we have faced, not only at Braver Angels, but in the bridging and the depolarization space in general, has been the lack of red voices and the, the, I guess the lack of red participation in this space, this this is what makes, you and I kind of unique in this space because we're we're both we both lean. Lean red. I mean, I'm a I'm a pretty strong conservative. I always have been since I've had any kind of political awareness.
[00:31:10:22] Maury Giles: I grew up in. Was trained by Richard Worthen, who was Ronald Reagan's chief strategist from governor to the white House. You know, in the 90s, he was my mentor in training. And so, yeah, we are unique in that space.
[00:31:23:01] Wilk Wilkinson: We are unique in this space. But the importance of, the importance of having red voices in the depolarization and bridge building space, cannot be overstated. Just because, it it does nobody any good. Well, first of all, you can't bridge something when there isn't another side. And we as a space. Understand you cannot hate other people into believing what you believe. And when, when you're constantly focused on, well, they hate me or I hate what they're doing, we get nowhere. But the one way that we can actually get beyond that is to it is through conversation. But conversations go two ways, and we've got to get more red voices into, the bridge building and the, the depolarization space. So talk a little bit about that for me. Yeah. At, you know, in the, in your travels and what have your experiences been in terms of red spaces and hesitation of, of people from that same Republican.
[00:32:31:06] Maury Giles: Right. Yeah, I think it, I think it becomes a real issue of how it's framed and what the desired outcomes are. And because there's I think just like anything, there's different words and phrases that that set up different experiences for people based upon their, their orientation, even the notion of a republic versus democracy. It's like, or even saying a constitutional republic or a democratic republic, like if you talk to someone that's a conservative constitutional republic will be what they say. If you talk to someone who's not, they'll say, democracy. And this is like been elevated to this like big debate of like, well, okay, hold on a second. What really is the root cause here? I think it demonstrates the notion of red blue orientation toward coming at this issue. I think most that are blue. This orientation of democracy is an orientation around everybody matters and everybody wants to contribute. And therefore we need to look out for the little guy and we need to connect with each other. Constitutional Republic Republicans comes from the perspective of saying there's an order and a in an approach to being able to allow for the individual to succeed. But the identity of us together as Americans is the same notion of democracy that I think it's talked about from a blue orientation. It just gets. But but when they get use those words, they get framed this way. And so when you set up and you talk about bridging and depolarization, that's one of the reasons that I've felt really confident and important that we need to we need to shift our discussion about courageous citizenship rather than bridging and depolarization. Yes. What we do is leads to bridging. That's what we're trying to do. And what we do is it's a deep polarization. But what I've heard from a lot of my friends, the folks that are red, is that, well, wait a minute, that sounds like you're just trying to talk and Kumbaya and hold hands and do stuff that's like like, what's the point? Well, you could explain. Well, the point is, is that when we get to know each other, then we can do things the other. And when you start to get to that place, it's like, okay, well, hold on a second. That's interesting. But if you're just trying to bring me into a place where you can say, okay, if you were just as enlightening as me, you would think differently about this issue then then it's like, well, I don't trust it. I don't feel like you're just trying to use talking and information as set up to be able to wear me down and change my views, when in reality, what we're trying to do is repair the social fabric of society necessary for a constitutional republic to thrive. Yeah, right. When you talk about it that way to someone that has a regiment mentality, then it's more appealing. I also think there's a little bit of chip on the shoulder with some that I read of, like of being afraid of that. I get it, I've been there and but you know what? If you spend time with someone that's blue, they've been shut down and canceled also in their own life in different circles. And so I think we have to get past some of those. But the things that I have been seeing that that Reds have been responding to more were, favorably in in our efforts is when we talk about local, when we talk about action and when we talk about solutions and building together tangible, that's the part that comes. That's the part that starts to become real. And, and, and someone has a blue mentality they want to build together. It's just that they're starting point is more easily articulated as well. We're all in this together. I need to find that, you know, the person that's not being seen and heard and trying to recognize them and have that dialog. But, you know, the thing that's inspired me about this, ultimately, is how we've landed on our theme for this year, for the convention of a Pledge renewed. Yes. And I think it speaks to the core of this. And what I love is that when we go here, I think we can help ascend above red blue labels to the idea that we are Americans who are part of the greatest experiment ever, ever attempted and and and delivered for 250 years so far in the history of the world. And when you go to the Declaration of Independence, the part that we don't often talk about is that last line when they pledge everything to each other, including their sacred honor. That's right. So in the very document that they were declaring independence, they were acknowledging the necessity of interdependence for this great experiment to thrive. And I think that that's when you can elevate the discussion to that level. Trust becomes important. You can't get to that level if you don't have a sense of trust. You can't get to trust if you don't have your own curiosity and desire for it. That's why it still comes back to me as an individual. But we absolutely have to make it appealing to disagree. And the point is not changing your view, but finding common ground. And of course, you're each going to try to persuade each other, but you're going to do that in the spirit of trying to find the greater good. And to me, that resonates red and blue, I think.
[00:37:26:07] Wilk Wilkinson: I absolutely think it resonates red and blue and, and and that's one of the biggest challenges that I've faced. Marriage is, is over the years that I've been doing this, people, people that misconception of that kumbaya, squishy middle, I, I, I always tell people I'm not here to change anybody's mind on anything. I'm just here to open minds, because I think certainty stands in the way of of so much, so much learning that we can do. That's one of the things that I love about the Braver Angels way is we we come together to share and learn from each other, not to tell people how to say different things, but but to listen and truly listen with intention. Again, going back to the courage thing, I think, I think listening with intention takes as much courage as anything else, especially when we're fairly certain on a on a particular thing and then going to the to, to the convention, you know, 1776 to 2026, a pledge renewed, I think is and you and I are both on that planning committee, and, and coming to that as our.
[00:38:32:00] Maury Giles: 20. Such a cool process how we landed.
[00:38:34:14] Wilk Wilkinson: It is a great process. And and it's just a great theme for the convention because I think it is hugely important. You know, you talk about the, the, the Declaration of Independence and how the founders said we are going to pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, our sacred honor. And how that does mean, the interweaving of an interdependent, amongst each other, and and renewing that pledge as a country, as a body of we the people, is going to be so important in how we continue on with this great experiment. There is nothing, in, in my life right now. I would say that is more important than to try and give to my children a a a better world than I found. That's why I do this work, Maury. And I think, you and I have talked about that before at length. And, and I just want people I want the listeners to know, I want all the Braver Angels to know. And I want all of the country to know that the work that we are doing does not in any way, shape or form in giving up your strongly held convictions. What it means is coming together in an interdependent way and knowing that if this great experiment, the United States of America is going to continue, it's going to require all of us to come together and quit playing the US versus them and, and start to work together again. All right. Just take the last couple of words. But this has been a.
[00:40:16:10] Maury Giles: I love it.
[00:40:16:20] Wilk Wilkinson: You conversation.
[00:40:18:09] Maury Giles: Yeah. No, I, I love this as well. Wilk, and I love what you were saying there because the responsibility of courageous citizenship is to bring your deeply held convictions to the table that's needed. That's important, that's critical. That's what we're asking you to do. We're not asking you to be nice. Although I think it should be. You'll live longer, you'll be happier. Your health will be, you know, less. Certainly. That's a good thing to be nice, but we're asking you to own your role. That, Washington said, was the most important role in this new system. And like Benjamin Franklin said, this republic, if we can keep it, depends upon us to be able to say, no, this is me, this is you. And you know what I completely disagree with you on that. But let me try to understand. Tell me about your life experience that shapes why you feel that way and what are you really after, and then sharing yours. And then you start to find that common ground. And when they were gathered in Independence Hall and doing that, they didn't like each other, not all of them. They had very different perspectives of what should happen and how the society should run and operate. They had very different economic engines and everything else that were going on religious backgrounds. But what they recognized is that individual people and the contribution to creating something was something you needed to own and be responsible for. And they created a system that, albeit had its flaws. It didn't include everyone in the beginning, but man, look at how it should look and how it was enabled us to get to where we are today, where everyone literally can and should be a part of this. That's the part that takes us to a higher level of being able to experience that ultimate push of creative citizenship is, wait a minute. There are shared American ideals worthy of my defense, my ownership, and acting in the best interests of those. That's our call to action. It's not easy. It's it's not, always fun, but it's all about hope. And it's all about owning the future together. And if we don't do this, consider the alternative. That's right. No one wants to go there. History has shown us. But if there's any country in the world where we can do this ourselves, like Madison said, our diversity is why this system is actually as powerful as it can be, because the competition of ideas through rigorous debate and what we would say today disagreeing accurately, finding common ground and building solutions, we have lost sight of that as the civic muscle that we need to flex and develop ourselves. And I know we will.
[00:43:01:00] Wilk Wilkinson: I know we will as well. Maury Giles, thank you so much for joining me on the Do It The Hate podcast. So good to see you, my friend.
[00:43:08:03] Maury Giles: And you too. And thanks for all you do.
[00:43:12:19] Wilk Wilkinson: Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate the Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together, so please take a moment to visit BraverAngels.org and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divides. This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friends, I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
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