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Affirming Identity, Building Community, and Cultivating Leadership
Episode 283 of Derate The Hate features a powerful conversation with Dr. Beverly Daniel Tatum, president emerita of Spelman College, award-winning psychologist, and acclaimed author of Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria? and her newest book Peril and Promise: Higher Education Leadership in Turbulent Times.
Dr. Tatum joins host Wilk Wilkinson for a candid exploration of the promise and perils of higher education in an age of polarization. From the importance of courageous conversations to the misperceptions around DEI, Dr. Tatum offers wisdom for leaders, educators, and anyone invested in building stronger communities.
✔️ Identity and Belonging – why affirming student identities is essential for inclusion and retention
✔️ The Power of Listening – how intergroup dialogue transforms campuses and communities
✔️ DEI Under Fire – reframing diversity, equity, and inclusion so everyone feels part of the picture
✔️ Free Speech & Hot Topics – navigating divisive issues like the Israel–Hamas war and political “divisive concepts” bans
✔️ Campus Safety & Mental Health – addressing urgent challenges while cultivating resilience
✔️ Leadership Insights – how presidents and campus leaders can thrive under pressure
President emerita of Spelman College (2002–2015)
Recipient of the Carnegie Academic Leadership Award (2013)
Honored with the APA Award for Outstanding Lifetime Contribution to Psychology (2014)
Author of Peril and Promise and the bestselling Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?
🌐 Learn more: beverlydanieltatum.com
🔗 Connect on LinkedIn | Instagram
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Transcript is AI generated and may contain errors
00:00:00:00 – Wilk Wilkinson
How do we build bridges across divides in times of deep polarization and fear? In this conversation, Doctor Beverly Daniel Tatum, psychologist, educator, and former president of Spelman College, joins me to talk about courageous conversations, the promise of higher education, and why affirming every student's identity is essential for our future.
Welcome back, my friends, for the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross. partisan organization working towards civic renewal.
This podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ.
Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the Hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Share it with a friend and visit Braver Angels.org to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partisan divide.
Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it.
My guest today is Doctor Beverly Daniel Tatum, president emerita of Spelman College and one of the nation's leading voices on race, education and leadership during her 13 years as Spelman ninth president. Doctor Tatum's visionary leadership was recognized with the Carnegie Academic Leadership Award. She's also the recipient of the American Psychological Association's Award for Outstanding Lifetime Contribution to Psychology. The author of four influential books, including the New York Times bestseller Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the cafeteria? Doctor Tatum continues to shape national conversations on identity, inclusion, and the future of higher education.
Her latest book, Peril and Promise Higher Education Leadership in Turbulent Times, tackles urgent questions facing college leaders today from free speech and debate to campus safety and the very viability of higher education. It is an honor for me to welcome Doctor Beverly Tatum to the Derate the Hate podcast. Here we go.
Doctor Beverly Tatum, thank you so much for joining me here on the Derate the Hate podcast today. It's great to see you.
00:03:26:12 – Dr. Beverly Tatum
It's my pleasure to be here. Wilk, thank you so much for the invitation.
00:03:30:01 – Wilk Wilkinson
Yes. When I first saw the press release for your book, Doctor Tatum, I saw one thing that stood out to me. And, and you talk about, courageous conversations are needed to to bridge today's societal divides. And and it resonated so much with me because of the work that I do with Braver Angels.
And one of the things we often speak about is, is courageous connections across the divides and, and how important it is to listen to those that that we disagree with. So it really did resonate with me. And and I wanted to speak with you because of that. And I'm grateful for you for you being here today.
Now that I know that was in reference to one of your latest books or that you've got coming out peril and promise and we'll get to that. But I want to step back, for the beginning of our conversation. And, and I know a lot of what you have done in your body of work, prior to now and still now uncertain. But is is talk about race and the psychology of of of racism and things like that. And, and as I was kind of looking at your work, Beverly, I saw that you had done a book, a number of years back called “Why are all the black kids sitting together in the cafeteria?” And and I think that's kind of a play on self segregation. So can you start our conversation with, with that book and kind of what the inspiration for that was?
00:04:58:12 – Dr. Beverly Tatum
Sure. Well, that title is a long title, and I'm just going to repeat it in its entirety, which is why are all the black kids sitting together in the cafeteria and other conversations about race, and the reason why the second half of the title is important is because really, the book is about understanding race, how it has been used and defined in our society and, and how that translates into racism and what that means for how we view ourselves and other people.
So I'm a psychologist and I write a lot about identity development and thinking about racial identity development in a race conscious society is something that a lot of teens of color in particular, do. And when they start to sit together in the cafeteria and the black kids or the Asian kids or the Latino kids or, so when those kids are sitting together in the cafeteria, it's usually a manifestation of their identity development in response to the messages they're getting in society about who they are, who they should be, what those stereotypes might be.
And as they're trying to figure all that stuff out, they look for the company of others who are also asking those questions. So it's understandable why they might sit together in the cafeteria, particularly during their high school years or into college. But also, the book is not only about understanding that phenomenon, but also how racism operates and ultimately what we can do to interrupt that cycle so that we might all be more able to embrace each other as human beings.
00:06:39:11 – Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah, and I think that's hugely important. And and I want to get a little bit deeper into that because, when we think about identity formation or identity development and, what quite often in my opinion or in my experience has, has led to a lot of the identity politics and the labeling and things like that.
So can you talk a little bit more about the, I guess, the psychological impacts of identity formation or identity development and, I guess, how we can, as a society, better embrace identity development but not allow that to become such an ugly thing later on when it comes to identity politics and labeling and stereotypes and things like that?
00:07:33:14 – Dr. Beverly Tatum
Yes. Well, to just again, I'm a psychologist. And so I think about things in psychological terms. We all have multiple identities. And what do I mean by that? I mean that we all understand things about ourselves and who we are. But the question I used to ask when I taught Introduction to Psychology, and I would ask my students on the first day of class to fill in this sentence, I'm just going to ask you to think about it for a moment.
If I gave you a fill in the blank sentence and it started, I am fill in the blank and ask you to write in as many different words as you could think of. And let's say 60s. You might write things like I am tall, you might write I am white, you might write I'm I'm a man. You might write, I'm a dad, I'm a brother, I am hungry, I am, you could put any number of things.
Some of those things might have to do with temporary status, like I'm tired or I'm hungry or, but I'm bored. But, but you might get in a classroom students. But the things that some of those words would be related to your relationships with people. I'm a son. I'm a father, I'm a employee.
But some of those words will be about characteristics you have all the time. I am tall, I'm smart, I'm white. Whatever you might put about yourself. So the question is, of the thousands and thousands of descriptors you might have put on the list, why did you put the particular things you put? It has to do with what has been reflected back to you, right?
Our identities are in some ways a mirror of what people have told us we are. So, if I grew up thinking that I was a good reader, it was because people were always commenting on my ability to read. Well, right. If someone said, I have a I have a very tall I have two sons and one of them is particularly tall. When he was seven, people said, you're tall for your age. And I was sitting with him one day and a man asked him how old he was. He was seven, and the man was about to say, you're tall for your age. And my son said, I know. Don't say it. I'm tall for my age, right. That that feedback we get now, you might say, well, people don't walk around saying you're white, you're black, you're Asian, you're Latino.
But in some ways they do, right? If I, as a black woman go shopping and the shopkeeper starts to follow me around but is not following the white people around. Something about that interaction has to do with me. It's not because I'm a good reader, it's because it is perceiving me in a particular way and has a stereotype, perhaps about black shoppers.
And that is triggering that behavior. My point simply is that what we think about ourselves and the things we pay attention to are often shaped by the feedback we get from the people around us. So I could describe myself and did as a black woman. I could describe myself as someone who grew up middle class. I could describe myself as a vegetarian. I could describe myself as two legged. I am two legged, but that's not an identity I think about much. To be honest.
if I was. Temporarily or permanently impaired by a disability, lost a leg through illness or something, I would certainly be thinking about my identity as a person who has only one leg. It would impact my life daily in terms of how I got around all of those things. So when we think about why identity develops, it's not the person by him or herself who's developing that identity.
Their identity, that it's being developed in the context of social relationships. In a race conscious society, people pay attention to their racial group membership because other people are paying attention to it.
00:11:48:15 – Wilk Wilkinson
And that makes a lot of sense. And, and I think, just like so many other topics, Beverly, this is one of those things that that people oversimplify, they oversimplify and they just they just simply say, oh, well, the whole identity thing. And I'm probably guilty of this myself to, to be quite honest, because it does get frustrating sometimes when, when people focus so much on, on identity and not not the great pieces and, of, of, of people's identity and because, like you said, it's a multifaceted thing.
There's, there's plenty of things that contribute to one's identity, but it seems like, especially different power structures want to, to focus on or use whatever aspect of a person's identity that is going to benefit them, not the person whose identity they're talking about. And and it becomes frustrating. But I think it's an oversimplified thing. And I think the, the, the explanation that you just provided is so important because it definitely helps people to or at least for me, it helps to to better understand the complexity of something that people often oversimplify.
00:13:06:00 – Dr. Beverly Tatum
Yes. One of the things I write about in my new book, “Peril and Promise”, college leadership in turbulent times is the importance of leaders understanding the need to affirm identities, of the students who are coming to the school. I just want to give an example of that and and might help listeners think, well, why does this matter?
But let's imagine you and I are in a group photograph, a bunch of people, there's maybe 50 people in a room and a photographer is going to take a picture of all of us together, and then each of us is going to get a copy of that photograph. There's one thing that each of us is going to do.
We're all going to do the same thing, which is we're going to look at that photograph and try to find ourselves in it. Right. That's the first thing we're going to do. I'm going to look for myself and see where I am, and then I'm going to evaluate how I look. And my eyes open. Was I smiling? all those things each of us would be doing some version of that. But let's imagine that in that group of 50, 10% of us were digitally removed from the photograph. So
that 10%, five and 50 are looking for themselves in the picture and not finding themselves. They had been removed. They were there when the picture went off. They were captured. But do modern technology? They've been removed from the picture. At first they would say, what's wrong with this picture?
I was there. How come I'm not visible? But if it happened over and over and over again, every time removed from the picture after a while, they wouldn't say what's wrong with this picture? They'd say, what's wrong with me? How come I'm never included? Why am I always being left out? And when we talk in educational settings about how we create spaces where students can thrive, I of course I'm talking about at the college level, but the same is true K through 12. We need to see ourselves reflected in the curriculum in the classrooms and,
in the environment, when we step into a workplace or a classroom, it's like entering into a photograph. And if we're never included, we start to feel invisible. And when we feel invisible, we feel unmotivated, disengaged from us. Student retention point of view. You're not likely to want to linger in places where you've been made to feel invisible. So thinking about how we affirm the identity of not just some of our students or some of our employees, but everyone, I think is a leadership characteristic, a leadership skill that is really important to think about.
00:15:52:22 – Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah, it absolutely is important, and this is one of those things where, and we can, we can take the conversation a little bit deeper into, into the whole concept of Dei. And, and I think that's, that's something, if I'm not mistaken, that's something that you talk about in peril, the promise and the importance of leadership and, and how, especially in terms of, college presidents that, which you were for for a very long time, the the whole thing about how, secondary education or post-secondary education is in pretty dire straits right now. It's being attacked, from many different fronts. But but let's talk a little bit more than Beverly about the inclusivity thing.
I think now, at least from my perspective, I think a lot of people don't have problems with diversity. They may have problems with diversity for diversity sake. And then if, like, diversity of thought is excluded, but diversity based on immutable characteristics is the only thing that you're looking for diversity in. that's that's where I think there's a problem on that front. But the equity thing definitely there's an issue there. But then inclusivity, I think inclusivity is hugely important. And I think most people that I know think inclusive, inclusion inclusivity is is hugely important. So let's can we break that down a little bit deeper then the diversity part. what if from your perspective, Beverly, what is the, the, the ugliness of DEI and how is it often misperceived?
00:17:28:04 – Dr. Beverly Tatum
The misperception comes from how we use language. People often misuse “diversity” to mean “people of color,” but diversity includes everyone. When white men hear about DEI, they may feel excluded. That’s why I prefer the language of “affirming identity,” because everyone has an identity that deserves recognition. Equity means fairness; if you don’t want equity, that implies you prefer inequity. Inclusivity means belonging; if you reject it, you’re asking for exclusivity. My framework is affirming identity, building community, and cultivating leadership. Leaders must ensure everyone rows in the same direction, feeling part of a shared goal. In higher education, we must give students opportunities to practice listening and engaging across differences, so they graduate with real leadership capacity.
00:22:20:11 – Wilk Wilkinson
Exactly. Real leadership means creating environments where everyone succeeds. Nobody should be left behind. That’s synergy—individuals coming together to be greater than the sum of their parts. But that requires listening and making sure people feel heard. How do you see the role of listening in conversations across divides?
00:24:41:18 – Dr. Beverly Tatum
Listening is critical. People who feel listened to are more willing to listen to others. That builds trust, and trust allows us to work through hard things. Intergroup dialogue is a powerful tool—developed at the University of Michigan and used on campuses nationwide. It emphasizes listening first, then engaging in tough conversations. Students who experience this find it transformative. They use those skills in workplaces, friendships, and families. Once you’ve built that listening muscle, no one can take it from you.
00:27:22:22 – Wilk Wilkinson
Yes, that’s exactly right. Many people don’t naturally have those skills, and discomfort makes us shut down. But growth happens outside the comfort zone. We must keep the conversation going, even if it’s hard, or we’ll never solve our common problems. How do universities play a role in addressing that?
00:29:07:04 – Dr. Beverly Tatum
In Peril and Promise, I talk about higher education’s challenges—enrollment, cost, campus safety, mental health—but also political attacks on academic freedom. In Georgia, for example, public institutions are barred from teaching “divisive concepts.” That could include civil rights history or current conflicts like Israel-Palestine. Avoiding these topics leaves students unprepared. I use the metaphor of exercise: discomfort is like muscle soreness. It’s painful at first, but if you persist, you grow stronger. Likewise, talking about hard issues builds capacity for problem-solving. We need to stop fearing temporary discomfort and focus on the long-term benefits of dialogue.
00:33:29:14 – Wilk Wilkinson
That’s so true. We don’t grow inside our comfort zones. Exercising the listening muscle hurts at first, but gets easier and more fruitful. Dr. Beverly Tatum, this has been such a rich conversation. Thank you for your time. The book is Peril and Promise, available everywhere and at beverlydanieltatum.com. Any final words for our listeners?
00:34:39:12 – Dr. Beverly Tatum
Yes. We all need to recognize how critical higher education is for the health of our nation. It is under attack, but it matters deeply. I hope those who have benefited will speak up and defend its value.
00:35:00:08 – Wilk Wilkinson
Thank you so much.
00:35:06:10 – Dr. Beverly Tatum
Thank you.
00:35:06:10 – Wilk Wilkinson
Friends, thank you so much for tuning in. If you found value here, please share the episode and subscribe so you never miss one. We are better together, so visit BraverAngels.org and consider joining the movement for civic renewal. Get out there, be kind, be grateful, and remember—it’s up to you to make each day the day you want it to be. Take care, and I’ll see you next week.
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