Send Wilk a text with your feedback!
In a culture addicted to outrage and speed, what if the real work of change starts by slowing down and listening?
In this episode of Derate The Hate, I sit down with Malka Kopell and Palma Joy Strand, co-founders of Civity, to explore how relationships — not rhetoric — are the foundation of healthy communities.
Malka and Palma bring decades of experience from law, mediation, community organizing, philanthropy, and civic engagement. But what makes this conversation powerful isn’t credentials — it’s clarity.
✔️ Why trust in institutions is collapsing — and what can replace it
✔️ How storytelling creates empathy without requiring agreement
✔️ The difference between conflict resolution and relationship building
✔️ What courageous citizenship looks like in everyday life
✔️ Why “the conversation before the conversation” changes everything
✔️ How small actions — a smile, a question, a moment of listening — rebuild civic muscle
Two people in genuine conversation become the nucleus of a “we.”
This episode isn’t about fixing the country overnight.
It’s about reclaiming agency, restoring dignity, and remembering that communities don’t heal through policies alone — they heal through people.
Civity offers free, practical tools anyone can use to begin rebuilding trust and connection in their own community:
👉 Visit: https://www.civity.org
👉 Explore their DIY resources and conversation practices
If you’ve ever felt powerless, disconnected, or unsure how to help — this conversation offers a place to start.
The world is a better place if we are better people. That begins with each of us as individuals. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for all you’ve got. Make every day the day that you want it to be!
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The Derate The Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels — America’s largest grassroots, cross-partisan organization working toward civic renewal and bridging partisan divides. Learn more: BraverAngels.org
Welcome to the Derate The Hate Podcast!
*The views expressed by Wilk, his guest hosts &/or guests on the Derate The Hate podcast are their own and should not be attributed to any organization they may otherwise be affiliated with.
Transcript is AI Generated and may contain errors
[00:00:00:00] Wilk Wilkinson: We talk a lot about fixing what's broken in our country. But what if the real work happened before the arguments ever began? Today's conversation is about relationships, stories, and the quiet courage it takes to actually see one another again. If you've ever felt powerless, unheard, or disconnected in your own community, this is for you. Stick with me. Welcome back, my friends, for the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The D Rate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross. partisan organization working towards civic renewal. This podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ. Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the Hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Share it with a friend and visit BraverAngels.org to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partisan divide. Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it. Today I'm joined by Malka Capell and Paloma Joy strand, co-founders of Civic, for a conversation that gets to the core of how communities actually hold together. Malka and Palmer have spent decades working in communities across the country, helping people solve real problems, not by debating harder, but by rebuilding relationships that have quietly broken down. We talk about why trust in institutions is failing, why so many people feel unseen or unheard, and why the answer isn't louder arguments. It's better connections. This is a conversation about storytelling, about listening with intention, and about what they call the conversation before the conversation. And maybe most importantly, it's about courageous citizenship, the small, everyday choices that help us rediscover and strengthen our civic muscle. And remember that change doesn't start in Washington. It starts between two people willing to see each other as human again. Let's get into it with my friends Palma and Malka of Civity. Here we go. Malka Kopell and Palma Joy strand. Thank you so much for joining me on the Derate the Hate Podcast. I am so grateful to see both of you on today.
[00:03:36:14] Palma Joy Strand: Good to be here.
[00:03:38:14] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. Thank you so much. So, few months back, I was able to, meet Palma at a bridging event and, in Mount Vernon, where, we came together for the listen, First Coalition, of bridging organizations. Who's who's just been doing great work to to bring together a lot of us that work in this, in this bridge building space. And that was the first time I got to find out a little bit more about, or find out a little bit about the, the organization and Perlman. I got to to talk a little bit, there in, in Mount Vernon and then, she said, she said that she'd like me to meet you, Malka. And and, I thought, what better way to find out more about the organization and how you all decided to get this thing started, than to have you here on the Derate the Hate podcast. So very grateful to have you both here. And, one thing that I really like to do is, is find out, you know, what? What the story is behind this story, what brought people into this, this bridging space? A lot of people don't even know that the bridging space or the depolarization space is a thing. But I always like to find out first why people do it and what brought them here. What was the kind of genesis is there of their journey into bridge building? So. So, Malka, I want to start with you. I know a little bit about Palmor, but, I want to start with you and find out a little bit about your story. What brought you to, to it, to the bridge building space. This this kind of depolarization work that that a lot of us do. And, and then how that led to the formation of great.
[00:05:23:20] Malka Kopell: Happy to. And it's really, Well, I want to say that I really, as part of the bridge building space, really appreciate the work that you do. And, do you rate the hate is really something we need because we need to change the story out there. So thank you for doing that. I started I, I started kind of this work or I came to this work, most of my professional life had been a, community organizer slash community facilitator, slash conflict resolution, facilitator. And I've worked in communities around the country for, for many years. And started this conversation with Palma probably 20 ish years ago, when I was a program officer at the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation. Palma was doing work in her community in Virginia, and we started a conversation about kind of, you know, how to community solve problems and what do we need? What do they need, to to make that problem solving process better? And we really focused in on the, the relationships between people in a lot of these processes, relationships that may be great or they may need a little fixing or a little better connection and started civilly about a dozen years ago now, to support leaders and communities on the relationship building, on trust, building, helping people see each other and connect with each other across all different kinds of differences. Everything from, economics to race to geography, to religion and politics, you name it.
[00:06:59:14] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. Relationship building, trust building. As we as we think about the age that we're in right now, I mean, obviously, institutional trust is at an all time low. Trust in each other, seems to be on the decline. So, relationships are going to be a huge part of that in rebuilding that trust. So. So, Palma, then, you know, talk to me a little bit about, your journey into, into this bridge building space. And you know, that conversation that you had with Marcus so many years ago and, and kind of how that translated into this, this bigger thing for you then.
[00:07:36:06] Palma Joy Strand: Thanks. And as Marcus said, it's it's great to be here. You know, these these stories of how to connect are so, so and, and and the possibility of connecting are so important. So, so I'm a lawyer and a conflict person by training, and but that is actually not how I came to this work. I, as Marcus said, I was when my kids were little, I was doing some work in my community on, some fairly contentious issues involving the public schools where my kids were. And I, you know, I kind of was in the middle of it, and I had this kind of lawyer frame about how things work. And then over time, I started to realize, like, this is not how this is not how things work, that things really work through relationships and that when people were in relationship, particularly with people who were different from them, you know, in, in the schools, it, you know, people were different in terms of race, in terms of language, in terms of economics, in terms of geography. And when people kind of had those connections, then things, you know, it wasn't like things stopped being contentious, but things moved forward. And when people were not in those kind of relationships, things just got stuck. Yeah. And so that that kind of very practical on the ground observation is what led me to, to, you know, kind of initiate, this particular, you know, conversation with Malka about, like how how do things work and how can we how can we maybe help things work better? Relationships are something that we create. They're not they're not something that come from the outside. And so it's it's something that people in communities can really, can really do to make their communities work better. And, you know, we're, I think even though we're both head people were both very practical people and, and this sort of question of, okay, so we know that this matters. Like how can we okay, how can we help make it happen? Is really where we is really where we started from
[00:09:39:13] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. I mean, I love that question, right? I mean, how do communities solve problems? I mean, it seems like a it seems like a basic question and, but but a lot of people, you know, if they sit down and think about it and, and it especially in the divided times that we live in today, it's, we have to, we cannot ignore our local community problems, to, to just continuously focus on all the catastrophic or so-called catastrophic, perceived problems that that there are every, everywhere else we, we in our communities and especially now. And this is a great question, because one of the things that I think about a lot right now, and especially in Braver Angels, one of the big things that we're talking about is courageous citizenship. What does courageous citizenship mean? How do we engage with each other in our communities? I mean, it really starts with starts with ourselves as individuals. Then how we can take that into our communities and then from our communities to to a larger and more national level. And and when I think about some of the things that I've seen that you guys do at 70 and things like that, I think about one of the things that I hear a lot in the work that I do is people feel powerless, they feel powerless to affect change. One of the reasons that they feel powerless is because they don't feel heard. It's these relationships have broken down to the point where people forget how to solve the problems within their community. And a lot of that, you're right, stems from the the breakdown in relationships. But we in this multicultural, pluralistic society that we live in today have to learn how to rebuild those relationships. And then it doesn't seem so difficult to solve those problem. So let's let's kind of dive into that a little bit deeper. Mark, I'll start I'll start with you, you know, thinking about, you know, how do we rebuild those relationships? I saw something about, bridging and bonding and the difference between those, there. So so let's dive into that a little bit.
[00:12:02:20] Malka Kopell: Sure. I'll start, Paul, and then feel free to chip in, but I, I think, Wilk, what you said, you know, we're a national organization, but we work in communities, and communities are really where it's happening, and where people are already in relationship with each other. Because they live near each other. They'll see each other at the grocery store, you know, maybe their kids play soccer together and and there's, you know, there's a lot of hope at the community level. So, you know, we work with community leaders, as I said, who are who are that? They're deeply involved in trying to make their communities better. And so what we offer is, you know, the kind of reminder that the relational part of community problem solving is a really important part. And sometimes we call our work the conversation before the conversation. So, you know, before people can sit down and, you know, get into the head stuff about what issue about the important issues they need to see each other as people, as human beings who live in their community. And, and that's really the piece that we focus on. And I think the piece for me, the piece that gives me the most hope.
[00:13:18:08] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, the relational, the relationship building, definitely is is something I don't know when I, when I see people coming together, it gives me hope too. And I think that's one of the things that, that people today I don't think I see enough of or they just don't focus enough on. And I want to take that into a different spot. But first I want to I want to, have a Palma, talk a little bit about that too, that relationship building and, and what that means for our communities. And again in this, this multicultural pluralistic society that we live in today. How do we build those relationships and, and how does that translate into to real community action and solving community problems.
[00:14:01:19] Palma Joy Strand: Yeah. No, I think that is really I mean, to me, that's really the million dollar question at this point. And, you know, earlier Wilk, you said, rebuild these relationships. And then just now you said build these relationships. And I and I think that's actually a really important thing to remember is that in this kind of multicultural society that we're living in, we haven't always had those relationships in a way that's like, oh, you're, you know, a fellow member of my community and everybody matters. And so, you know, to some extent we're kind of rebuilding our communities, but with, with, with a different group of people, with a more diverse group of people, with people who, you know, may have historically not been included in the communities that were making decisions and that we're building and consequently, decisions may not have really worked for them. And, and so this project that we're, we're engaged in, you know, to me is both a really necessary project, but it's also a really exciting project. I mean, the the U.S. is, you know, is a place of, so many different people and so many different, you know, there's just this, this energy, and, and to be able to kind of tap into that, and bring everybody in is, it's more important than ever. And the relationships across difference, you know, politics as what everybody focuses on. But some of these other differences, like race and religion, are very deep seated. And and to really kind of connect across those differences is both important for us, you know, holistically. But it's also really, really rewarding. You know, from from a personal point of view, we're all interested in people and, you know, connecting with people who are, are different than us, that we're kind of back away from a lot of the time can be really, just really wonderful.
[00:15:54:23] Wilk Wilkinson: Absolutely. Yeah. The the connecting across differences. It's a phrase that we, we hear quite often and, and this is kind of where I wanted to take this because, well, there's something I want to get to the, the, the who is the we question is something I, I've also seen which which stands out to me as something that's hugely important. But the but the one thing that I wanted to say when we think about connecting across differences and, and the things that we hear, you know, you talked about, you know, marginalized communities or people who who are there, but they don't feel like they're truly represented in a lot of the conversations. That's again, going to the thing that I said before, the not feeling heard, the feeling unseen, the feeling powerless. That's a huge problem, right? And, if you love, you know, Palma, when you talk about the excitement of, of building a relationship with somebody who's different than you and, and things like that, I mean, it's always exciting for me when I, and I obviously have a lot of these conversations, you know, working in this space and having done this podcast for, for several years now. But when I, when I meet somebody new or find out something new about somebody that, you know, I never knew before or they, they present something just to me that, you know, I never really thought it that thought of it that way. Because my life, my lived experience is not the same as their lived experience. I think that's all very exciting. But one of the things that we see in, you know, in our media today and our politics today and, you know, the ugliness of, of of discourse and, and and we're made to focus it, whether it be our social media feeds or, or the mainstream media or, or, you know, the, the politicians with the, the loudest and the most cantankerous voices out there, they, they, they focus on the, the bad things within a community and then pretend that that, that represents the whole community, or different things like that. And then we have this reticular activating system, right? Where if that's what we see, that's what our perception is. Now we we are focused on that as being them. Get into, a little bit and I'll go back to you, Palma. And, and then and then have market comment on this too. But, but the who is the we question getting to the we versus the us versus them I think is a huge portion of this so that we don't just see them as the worst examples that were being presented with that misperception and that perception gap. Something I've talked about with, with James Coan for More Like Us is a big problem. But, talk to me about who is the we,
[00:18:44:05] Palma Joy Strand: So, you know, the the us versus them, is, and I did a blog on this not that long ago. It's really problematic. It's, you know, it's like it's very malleable. It's like, well, the US changes, the them changes. It's very kind of artificial. It's also very, kind of instrumental in the sense that it sort of divides and conquers people. So it's like, so there's maybe a reason why people want to, you know, people to feel us versus them. But I think the, you know, the kind of the fundamental thing that we've really discovered is that is that when people and I totally agree with you about social media and the ways that people kind of get into that us versus them space, but what we've found is that when you put people actually in like person to person, face to face conversation with someone, then that you know, then you're just two people and you are, kind of a nucleus of a we and the what, regardless of the of the differences and we can talk a little bit about the kind of the effectiveness of this. I'll just start and Malka can probably continue. You know, we we participated in the Stanford Strengthening Democracy Challenge a few years ago where they were, the researchers were looking at how to combat, you know, partisan animosity. That's kind of the, the, the affective part of, of polarization. And they, put a call out for eight minute, you know, which is very short, eight minute or less online interventions. And, we submitted one that kind of gives people a little bit of the experience of the one on one conversations that we do the, the we call it the storytelling intervention. It's all about stories. And they had 252 submissions. They picked 25 to to test stars was one of them. And ours came up number one in, reducing social distrust. Speaking of of trust, but but the key here to really and and a lot of them were, were also quite effective. The key here is that it really doesn't take much to invite people into the we that's kind of this, right? I mean, we do we have this sense like we're all programed to be us versus them. And what one of the things that this study showed is that it's like we also have that we part going on in our head, and all we have to do is kind of invite people into that we space and it doesn't take much. Eight minutes. Yeah. No not a lot. So it's there's there's a lot of room for not getting into that. Oh you know, we're just doomed. Like, this is just who we are. And, you know, there's no way out of it. Yeah.
[00:21:30:07] Wilk Wilkinson: That's that's right, that's right. Mark, I would like you to expand on that because. Because, yeah, this is a topic that can't be promoted enough. Is that, you know, that that I love that it's just, you know, two people is the nucleus of a we, expand on that for me, would you? Because I think it's hugely important.
[00:21:48:10] Malka Kopell: Yeah. I mean, we, you know, we get, Yeah, we get discouraged because we think, oh, it's problem is too big. It's our country and it's, you know, it's this huge system, but the system and you said this before, Wilk, it's made made up of individuals. It's it comes down to the individuals. That's who the we is. It's a bunch of individuals. It's a bunch. And we created the system as it is today and created our culture. And and we can change it, one conversation at a time. Truly. And I think what, you know, Palma talked about the Stanford study with, like 30 over 30,000 study participants in that study. And after looking at the interventions, and, it changed, you know, those interventions changed how people felt not only about one other person, but about a group of people. So Palma said our intervention was, story, storytelling, intervention, basically people speaking into a camera one by one, talking about themselves, not talking about their politics, but talking about who they were, their community, their family, their interests. And yet that moved the needle on how people felt about people from the other party. Yeah. Just hearing people's nonpolitical stories, actually. And, and, you know, and so the you know, I think that the nice thing about is taking a system's view, is that. Yeah. You know, the we is made up of connections between between individuals. It is possible to change the way and, and I think that that is, that's really a, a big part of our work. And in your work too, is, again, helping people see a different story of who we are.
[00:23:38:17] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, yeah. And we can take that, to the next step. Because, you know, the power of storytelling, it's it's huge. And it's good. I do. And I know what to do in the work that that you all do as well is the power of storytelling. And to your point, Malka, the, the when people are asked to, you know, speak about themselves. And I mean, everybody loves AI. There's always everybody, right? But but I mean when especially, you know, when we live in this age where we are in the most connected age in human history, but people feel more alone than they've ever felt. You have to ask yourself why and when, when the question is when the question is never asked, you know, why do you feel this way about this? Or what about your life experience has led you to believe what you believe? the whole storytelling thing, again, cannot be overstated, because when people get that opportunity to say why they believe what they believe and they know somebody else is actually listening, not just to what they believe, but why they believe it. So let's let's take that to the next level for me, Malka, and and talk more about that storytelling aspect of it and how important that begins. You know, that that part of this, this recipe. So to speak, is because when we when we get to tell our story, it again, it doesn't take long. But when we get to tell our story, we open up to the idea of hearing other people's stories as well. So let's let's expand on that a little bit.
[00:25:23:05] Malka Kopell: Yeah. And, and you put your finger on it, Wilk, people, people love telling their story and love being listened to. And that and the listening part, is, is so important in this, right. You know, we've, we've we do workshops and we've had people, you know, kind of give people a chance to tell their stories, finding common ground, connecting across difference. And what we've heard is, you know, even from people have told their stories before. What they appreciate is that knowing that someone else was listening because we asked them to write, and they took turns listening to each other's stories. So that's that's an important it doesn't even matter what the story is. Having someone go through an experience of, hi, this is me. And at the other end of that experience is someone that other person is still there listening to them. That is such a it's such a wonderful experience. I mean, I, you know, I, I, I sometimes reflect on kind of, you know, how I came to this work from way back. And it really started when I was a kid and I, and I was a shy kid who wanted to be included and learn the power of not only talking to someone else, one other person, but listening to their story, the power of including someone else. And really, we're all we're trying to do in our work is to let people know what power they already have.
[00:26:52:05] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, yeah. Again, and this is a big thing that that we're talking about, Braver Angels a lot, too, is is helping people recapture that sense of lost agency, you know? And what better, what better way to show a person that they still have agency than to ask them what their story is? Palma, dive into that a bit for me, because, when we, when we talk about, people stories and asking people again, you know, not just what they believe, but why they believe it, what is your life experience? What about your life experience brought you to this point that you believe this about this thing, or you believe this about those people? You know? And when we start to ask people and they say they're people listening, you know, these people really want to know my story. You know, that does bring us back to the.
[00:27:46:21] Palma Joy Strand: Yeah. So a couple things, you know, it. We we started talking about storytelling and we've actually moved to talking about story sharing because the listening part is so important. And, you know, our culture really highlights talking, you know, free speech and talk, talk, talk. And we don't really highlight listening and and and listening is it is the most powerful gift and, and we do a lot of our work and you know, we do groups, but, you know, as you experienced at the Mount Vernon session, we divide people into one on one pairs. Where, where, where you when you tell your story, you really have that other person's presence and attention. And when you are listening to someone's story that you are really fully listening to what to what they have to say and is and as you pointed out, well, it's not about like what you think. The point of this conversation is not getting to agreement. The point of this conversation is just like, who are you as a person and, and, and a little bit of how you got to where you are and the person that you are today and, and that that kind of we think of storytelling and listening as kind of an exchange of gifts. So like I, I give you the gift of my story or you give me the gift of your story, and then the other person gets the gift of their listening, which is which is truly a gift. And, and, you know, you talk about sort of empowering people as Marcus said, like listening to someone or taking the risk of kind of sharing a little bit of your story to invite them to tell their story is is such an empowering thing. And, you know, we've been on this Simone, journey for, for quite some time now. And so it's, you know, we do it in our work, but it also filters out, as I'm sure you've experienced, too. It filters out into the rest of your life. Oh, yeah. And and approaching people with this sense of, you know, you have a story. It's that's, you know, I don't I don't have time to hear everyone's story, but this sense of everyone has a story. And if I'm interacting with them, to approach them with that sense of what's the story there? Yeah, really changes how you interact.
[00:30:05:03] Malka Kopell: With people.
[00:30:05:21] Palma Joy Strand: On an everyday basis. And it's so within our power to do all the time, every day.
[00:30:11:12] Malka Kopell: It's like, yeah.
[00:30:12:15] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, go ahead, go ahead.
[00:30:13:21] Malka Kopell: Yeah, there really is. It's based, kind of natural space in our society for this kind of interaction. The space needs to be created, especially in this civic space. Right. Not that's not so with people who are, you know, our nearest and dearest or family and friends, but out in the kind of working world, the civic world, the problem solving world. No, no, no, no time for chit chat. Got to do. Got it, got it. Got to make things happen. And, so, we, you know, we encourage the leaders that we work with who have spaces, who have problem solving spaces. They have meetings, they have gatherings, you know, they you know, they have public meetings. We encourage them to introduce the opportunity, the space for that kind of interaction in their own meetings, you know, hey, you know, before we get to the next item on our agenda, how about taking ten minutes, finding someone that you don't know and you share your story and listen to theirs. That is so easy to do. But it is does not happen naturally and it changes everything.
[00:31:19:14] Wilk Wilkinson: No, that's absolutely right. It's we live in this cycle where where it's boom, boom, boom. We got to have results. We got to, you know, we, we got we've got to constantly be moving to make things happen. And, and and you're you're so right. Malka, would you say that it interferes with our, our ability to. And this is, I, I think I've heard you guys say. But I know it's something that we talk about in the circles that I run in. Is rebuilding that or not rebuilding, but strengthening that civic muscle. Right? Strengthening that civic muscle, just like anything else, takes constant exercise and being able to. And then going back to the listening thing. Palma, the the I call it listening with intention and, and then I tie this right back to the, the whole thing about courageous citizenship. Right. People think that it just takes courage to be able to speak in front of people or, or to to to talk. But a lot of times courage means having the courage to listen and with intention, you know, listen to things that that you may disagree with or may make you feel uncomfortable. But listening with intention anyway because you want to intentionally find out more about that person that you're having that conversation. Right. These things are so incredibly important. They're all interwoven into into each other to, again, help to strengthen that civic muscle. If we don't make time or we don't, we don't find circles where we can have the time to, engage in those those listening sessions and those those working sessions or those civic muscle workout sessions. We we forget who the other people are. We forget what that we is. So as we round out our time here, there's so much more we could talk about. But as we round out our time here, Malka & Palma, let's just just talk about just briefly kind of sum up, you know, how does Civity produce those tangible results that the people are looking for? They, again, we are all so busy and we don't know you know, how to effectively spend our time. How can.
[00:33:30:23] Palma Joy Strand: People.
[00:33:32:00] Wilk Wilkinson: You know, whether it be daily, weekly, whatever, whatever cadence they, they feel comfortable doing, but what is some, you know, intentional actions somebody can take to find that tangible result for the effort they're putting in, because we are looking for results. But sometimes, number one, a lot of people don't even know the bridge building space is a thing. And they should because far too often people just have lost the sense that there are organizations out there trying to bring us together. What's something that Civity is doing and what's something that people can, can use as an action to find the tangible results that we're all looking for. Let's start with, Malka and then, we'll round out with Palma.
[00:34:18:08] Malka Kopell: Okay. Okay. So one thing that people can do is have a conversation with someone that they don't know that well, maybe not sure about. Take a little bit of a risk, because you will get something back and that conversation will change you. It'll change the other person, and it will change our culture. We have, a portal on our website. www.ctivity.org. That's called DIY and it has a bunch of exercises and tips, including from any of our partners in the bridge building field about what you can do. But I just want to say that, you know, you can do it. You know.
[00:35:01:12] Wilk Wilkinson: And Palma, give the give the listeners, some, some quick actions that they can do to find those tangible results. And, and then we'll, we'll get the website out again to talk, but, yeah, get around us out here.
[00:35:15:04] Palma Joy Strand: So remember that the tangible result here is just building a relationship. Like that's it. It's not changing the world. It's building a relationship which does have the effect ultimately of changing things. But so think about, you know, we call them 70 brushes. You get onto an elevator, there's somebody you don't know. They're wearing a scarf that looks kind of cool and you say to them, wow, I love that scarf. And it's like all of a sudden that person is like, oh, there's a person here. They noticed me. They saw it. They saw me. That's a 70 brush. It says, hello, hi, you're another person. I see you, you walk down the street, there's an unhoused person who's just sitting there looking up, and you say, hello, hello. I saw, I saw you, you're there. You're a person. You're in my community. And as Mark, I said, those are just like tiny little things that you can do every single day. Also have a conversation with somebody. And I do want to pick up this something that Malcolm mentioned, this idea of risk, which I think you're courageous citizenship really acknowledges. One of the things that we say to people is this is a little different than the way we're kind of programed, socialized to operate, particularly in spaces that aren't about family and friends. We're we're programed to kind of walk on by, you know, those sort of blinders or not, not be curious, not you not get into those spaces. It's a little risky. Yeah. But we've also found that if you say to people, you know, this is a little risky, but you can do this.
[00:36:49:23] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah.
[00:36:50:13] Palma Joy Strand: Yeah, that people really respond. And the reward, the tangible result is how people reciprocate.
[00:36:58:07] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah.
[00:36:59:06] Palma Joy Strand: When somebody says, you know, smiles back or, or shares their story with you, that creates a connection that's incredibly rewarding.
[00:37:10:09] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. Yeah. That's you're right. There is there is some risk, but there is great reward. So many great things in this conversation. Malka & Palma, you know, I there's a there's a grocery store around here that runs an ad that says the shortest distance between two people is a smile. And, and and I love that love that. I love that phrase. And it just, you know what you said there, Palma? Just brought that up for me. I've got an episode. I've talked about it several times. The, how smiles and bad mood. They're contagious. So we should choose wisely. I love the idea of these tivity brushes, and, so much greatness here in this conversation. Malka Kopell, Palma joy Strand, Civity.org is the website. Everybody can find out more about both of you all in the show notes for this episode. It's been a great pleasure. Thank you so very much for joining me here on Derate the Hate.
[00:38:02:06] Malka Kopell: Thank you Wilk.
[00:38:03:10] Palma Joy Strand: Thanks. Wilk, it's always inspiring to, to see people and meet people and talk to people who are who are doing the work to make things better in our in our community. Thanks so much.
[00:38:15:03] Wilk Wilkinson: Very good. Thank you both. Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate the Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together, so please take a moment to visit BraverAngels.org and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divides. This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friends, I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
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