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What if the biggest problem in the depolarization movement isn’t disagreement — but invisibility?
In Episode 297 of Derate The Hate, Wilk Wilkinson is joined by Tom Fishman, a longtime media executive and bridge-builder whose career spans MTV, Facebook, and national civic movements, for a deep conversation about how we scale belonging instead of outrage.
This episode explores why bridge-building can no longer operate quietly on the margins, why depolarization needs a real air game, and how storytelling, media strategy, and tangible results can move this work into the cultural mainstream.
This isn’t about kumbaya.
It’s about what actually works.
✅ Why depolarization needs a “killer app” to reach the mainstream
✅ How polarization has shifted from left vs. right to top vs. bottom
✅ Why Americans feel lonelier than ever in the most connected age in history
✅ How media algorithms reward outrage — and how to counter them
✅ Why bridge-building must produce visible, tangible results
✅ The human need for belonging and its connection to the struggles of young men
✅ What inspired The Great Boys Book and why it matters right now
✅ How citizen-led solutions can rebuild trust at the local level
📡 The “Air Game” of Depolarization
If people don’t know this movement exists, it can’t grow. Tom breaks down why awareness is the missing link — and how media can be used for good instead of division.
🧱 From Dialogue to Results
Talking matters — but results matter more. This conversation digs into why conservatives, moderates, and everyday citizens need to see outcomes to buy in.
🤝 Belonging Over Outrage
At the core of polarization is a broken sense of belonging. Tom and Wilk explore how fear, grievance, and loneliness fill the vacuum when shared narratives disappear.
📖 Storytelling That Scales Hope
Outrage wins attention — but hope, surprise, and great storytelling win trust. This episode shows how bridge-building can compete without becoming propaganda.
Tom Fishman is a founding partner of the Builders Movement, an advisor to the ProHuman Foundation, and a seasoned media and technology leader. He previously held senior roles at MTV and Facebook and has spent more than 15 years building platforms, audiences, and narratives at scale.
Tom is also the author of The Great Boys Book, focused on fostering strength, courage, and kindness in boys ages 5–10.
🔗 Learn More About Tom
🌐 Website: https://greatboysbook.com
💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomfishman/
📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/greatboysbook/
Depolarization can’t stay a “secret society.”
Bridge-building has to be seen, felt, and proven.
This episode is a roadmap for how we move from good intentions to cultural momentum — and how media, storytelling, and results can help rebuild trust across divides.
The world is a better place if we are better people. That begins with each of us as individuals. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for all you’ve got. Make every day the day that you want it to be!
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The Derate The Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels — America’s largest grassroots, cross-partisan organization working toward civic renewal and bridging partisan divides. Learn more: BraverAngels.org
Welcome to the Derate The Hate Podcast!
*The views expressed by Wilk, his guest hosts &/or guests on the Derate The Hate podcast are their own and should not be attributed to any organization they may otherwise be affiliated with.
Transcript is AI generated and may contain errors
[00:00:00:00] Wilk Wilkinson: We talk a lot about bridging divides, but a big part of the problem is that most Americans don't even know this movement exists. Today's guest has spent years inside the media and tech ecosystem. MTV, Facebook, National movement asking a hard question how do we scale belonging, not outrage? This is a conversation about storytelling results and what it will take to make depolarization impossible to ignore. Welcome back, my friends, for the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross. partisan organization working towards civic renewal. This podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ. Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the Hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Share it with a friend and visit BraverAngels.org to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partisan divide. Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it. Today I'm joined by Tom Fishman, someone whose journey into depolarization didn't come from theory, but from experience. Tom grew up in Queens, learned early what it means to live across difference, and then went on to work at the center of modern media and technology, from MTV to Facebook. Right as the attention economy was taking shape, he saw the promise and the damage. In this conversation, we talk about what we're calling the air game of bridge building. Why dialog alone isn't enough. Why depolarization needs a killer app, and how storytelling, media, and tangible results can move this work from the margins to the mainstream. We explore how polarization has shifted from left versus right to top versus bottom. Why belonging is the unmet human need driving so much anger and loneliness, especially among young men. And how that insight led Tom to write the book, the Great Boys Book. This is a strategic conversation, but it's also deeply human. It's about proving that bridge building isn't just Kumbaya. It actually works. Let's get into it with my friend Tom Fishman. Here we go. Tom Fishman Thank you for joining me on the Derate the Hate podcast. So good to see you today.
[00:03:38:19] Tom Fishman: Thanks. Wilk for having me. I'm really excited to be here with.
[00:03:42:02] Wilk Wilkinson: The Pro Human Foundation series is something I started a while back. Many of the listeners know, or I'm sure all the listeners know it, but I sit on the board of advisors for the Pro Human Foundation, something I'm very passionate about. And, and, Tom, you just joined us in that board of advisors and excited to have you here today to kind of talk about your story and and your journey in this, in this space.
[00:04:08:01] Tom Fishman: Yeah, yeah, here, here. And, yeah, even before we kick off, we were just saying earlier, I want to say it while, we're recording, I thank you. I think what you do for the space. I think what you do at Braver Angels is just incredibly valuable. Work, for the cause of kind of overcoming toxic divides and, you know, getting our country communities on a better track. So I thank you to start, but. Yeah, let's take it where you want to go. Pumped to be here.
[00:04:30:11] Wilk Wilkinson: Grateful for those kind words, man. So so let's start with, a little bit of your story time because you've you've got many, many things that, in this bridge building space and in the, toxic polarization, the polarization space, things that you've done, you know, with, with starts with us and the builders movement and things like that. Let's start with, a bit of your story and, and, and kind of tell me what brought you to this, this space, the need to get involved in, in, taming toxic polarization.
[00:05:07:16] Tom Fishman: Yeah, yeah. So, it all starts in Queens, New York. I'm a guitar player from Queens, and my for this is I had it's my, my, Yeah. My my identity in sort of that is that, that's, growing. So, growing up in one of the most populous, diverse, yet somehow, you know, crowded, parts of the country in the world, you know, getting along with people and coexisting with people across lines of difference is, not a nice to have. It's it's survival, mechanism from kind of, you know, not getting your ass whooped in the schoolyard all the way to, you know, getting a lot, you know, I mean, just cultures of immigrants that live next to each other and work with each other. You know, this is just a part of, you know, it's a skill, I think that that you that you build and. Yeah. So I was, you know, a Jewish kid who went to a Catholic school, you know, yeah. So there's just a lot of, I think, there are a lot of, a lot of bridges that, were a part of my life early on. And my sort of education, professional life led me into a media, you know, in the early or, I guess, the, the, the sort of mid to late aughts when digital media and social media were becoming sort of professionalized and becoming a thing. And that was both, you know, very exciting. And I, you know, I joke sometimes that I remember distinctly. I'm old enough to remember when social media was fun. I could picture it, like, right now and, yeah, but it was just, yeah, goofy. But, yeah, I was on the front lines, I think early on, even in, you know, kind of a it was MTV for a long time running digital media. I was, in the belly of the beast at Facebook for a while, you know, to doing, doing, interesting content work there. And so I was on the front lines of both, sort of the good and the bad, of, of what essentially are mobs of, like, the kind of mob mentality that, yeah, that social media that the internet can, can engender. And, you know, I mean, it's just a matter of, I think developing a facility with the sort of tools of the modern media, and, ecosystem and attention economy, and having done that for a while and sort of come to a point in, I think my career, you know, especially around, you know, 20, 20, obviously a lot of unrest, across many dimensions of societal life and in the country, you know, political, racial, you know, gender, all manner of, things like tearing at the fabric and that was a time. Yeah. I was sort of looking to kind of take these dark arts that I had learned and kind of point them at, at something positive and something powerful and was able to. Yeah, I, I joined, what was called starts with us and, and is now the builders movement as the sort of inaugural and founding CEO and, worked there to basically, you know, built in the sort of first four years of its life to sort of build up, what ultimately is, a media engine that, can help shift narratives, for people in the mainstream. But as you know, many now pieces of, sort of civic and educational components to its programing as well, so that was my, my path from a guitar player in Queens to, depolarization.
[00:08:06:05] Wilk Wilkinson: Right, right. No. That's fascinating. And and, you know, you mentioned MTV and one of the things that I think about is all the, all the different the cycle of things that have happened at MTV over the course of the years and, and now that I now I see MTV, I think is going away. And that's, that's definitely a conversation I want to have with you at another time because because I want to hear about the MTV stuff, but not today. What I want to hear about today, Tom, is, is, you know, you said you said that you were you know, you were a Facebook for a while. You remember when social media was fun and and there's a lot of us that are, that are old enough to remember what the world was like before social media. You know, I remember that. I remember, MTV when MTV first, first happened, you know, when it when it was the first thing, when it actually played music videos. I didn't have a television and we certainly didn't have cable when I was a kid, but, I remember going over to my cousin's place and seeing MTV for the first time, Michael Jackson and things like that. Yeah. And the the way that the world has changed in so many years. Since then has been unbelievable.
[00:09:27:03] Tom Fishman: Yeah.
[00:09:27:18] Wilk Wilkinson: And then the onset of social media, back in, you know, back in the, like you said, the mid aughts and, and when, when, when I was in high school was when, when the social or not social media, when I was in high school was when the internet first started becoming a thing. And I remember sitting in my science class and, and, I can't remember the science teacher's name at the time, but but he talked about this internet being this new amazing thing.
[00:09:57:01] Tom Fishman: Yeah.
[00:09:57:22] Wilk Wilkinson: That was going to put everybody in contact with each other at some point. And, and, he showed us what this modem was, is like a 28 K dial up modem and.
[00:10:08:06] Tom Fishman: Yeah.
[00:10:08:20] Wilk Wilkinson: And, and I just in my mind, I'm rolling around all the different things that have changed in human interaction since then. And when we think about living now, in the age where humans are more connected than they've ever been, we also live in an age when people are lonelier than they've ever been. Yeah, talk to me about social media and and what has changed in that whole that that human condition and the way that we interact with people and and then give me, you know, kind of talk to me in your mindset how that has turned into something toxic. Because what I want to try and get our conversation to is you and I are our media people. How do we reverse that? So let's let's first start talking about the most connected age that humans, we're humans are more connected now than they've ever been.
[00:11:08:17] Tom Fishman: Yeah, but we're.
[00:11:09:05] Wilk Wilkinson: Lonelier than we've ever.
[00:11:10:18] Tom Fishman: Been. Yeah. It's, it's a great question. I and I kind of want to answer it at two altitudes. There are the ways in which we, connect sort of directly, with each other and the ways that we're connected through, through narratives, through culture, through history, through a shared sense of history or a shared sense of what's possible on a path forward. And one of the most exciting things, in the early sort of, you know, social internet, era, was this notion of democratization, right, of media. Right. We didn't need, elite sort of institutions to necessarily be the siphons for information that we all got. And, and there are things about that that are undoubtedly good that there's, you know, sort of more, options, I think, for, for reporting and for storytelling, for community building, these sorts of things. But I think it unquestionably has come at a cost. Right. I think without shared sources of truth, a shared set of facts, and, and more broadly, with a sort of fragmentation of a sense of, I mean, a lot of things, but I'll take a big one, right? A sense of what America is and has been, what the American dream is and the possibility to live it on the path forward. That is very disorienting. I think for a for a social animal. Right. And then within the context of that, of that sort of unmoored from a shared narrative, a shared context, a shared sense of where we've been and where we might be able to go is you just talk to people less, right? The, the, we, the self-selection, and the tribalism in that kind of social media makes possible kind of a well-worn topic, right? That, we find our bubbles with the people who affirm our beliefs and that sort of intermingling with a physical sorting. We live near, you know, people who think differently than we do, less and less, you know, the, a very common in a true sort of way for ism, in the sort of depolarization of bridging space, is that it's hard to hate up close that when we get to know people who are different than us, we find common ground that becomes less and when as possible, when we're sorted away from people who are different than us, either digitally and then sort of physically. So you have, at these two levels a loneliness. You are lonely in a sort of kind of historical and cosmic sense because you're unmoored from a shared narrative, country, society history. Right. And we're interfacing with each other less than that, less. And in the vacuum of that and the vacuum of not knowing what my country is or has been or how to think about it in the back, or knowing less or having less of a shared sense of the vacuum, of not necessarily having a sense of where I can go in the vacuum of not interfacing with people who are different than me. We do what humans always do, usually with vacuum information, and we fill it with anxiety and fear. And, and I laugh. It's not funny. You know, this is like, these are the things that we then paint a broad picture. We catastrophize that's a the lizard brain thing to keep ourselves safe as we assume the worst. And that, I think, is the path from kind of the media ecosystem to the, you know, the sort of primordial sort of elements of the toxicity that we feel right now.
[00:14:25:01] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, yeah. I think some hugely important points there. Tom, the, The oversimplification of thing and then the. I don't know, a lot of different ways that I can think about this right now, but but so, so the media, the media, politician, social media, one of the big problems that I've, I've seen and that I've been pointing out for years is something that I call fog, fear, outrage and grievance. And it's this fog model that is used, unfortunately, whether intentional or unintentional, I mean, I think it can be argued, you know who does. Why? What? You know, I try not to ascribe motives, to to people for certain things, but the fog model undoubtedly, keeps us separate and keeps us divided. People in our politics, people in our media, outrage entrepreneurs on social media. Yeah, keep us scared, keep us mad, and keep us focused on, our grievances over what we should be grateful for. Our grievances over gratitude. One of the things that that I want to, be able to do in this space. And I think it's something that you and I have a a very strong commonality in is the idea of a strong air game for the, for the depolarization space. Bridging divides through through media. But, you know, as somebody who worked at Facebook and I, and I don't pretend to know all the things that you did at Facebook, but but algorithms are something that that we we have to deal with the digital creators have to deal with algorithms and things like that. How how do you think? Well, first of all, kind of give me your take on what you see as, as the air game needed in, in the depolarization space and the bridging space, what you see that as. And then how do we as creators in this space, kind of overcome or beat the algorithms that promote or incentivize that fear, outrage and grievance?
[00:16:42:19] Tom Fishman: Yeah. So I think if, a broad way to think about a theory of change, is it can you can sort of contextualize maybe in, in the good old marketing funnel. Right. Like some of your listeners will know, there's some of them. If they don't, then I'm jealous of them. But but it's. Yeah. Right. True. Right. In the marketing funnel, it's like you that you've gone to the top of a funnel and you try to reach your marketing, an idea or a product. You reach as many people as you can so that they are just aware of the product, and then you bring them down into the funnel so that the awareness turns into consideration of the adoption or purchase of that product. And then further down, hopefully they quote unquote, convert to a buyer or, purchase or adopter. And then ideally they advocate at the very bottom of the funnel. They love it so much. This thing is so great. And it goes back into the top of the funnel because they're telling people about it. And the funnel turns into a flywheel grows. Right when you have that happening. Right. And I think the air game, for depolarization and then for, for bridging. Right. It's called sometimes is a mechanism by which many, many, many people or people at the mainstream can become aware of a different kind of a mindset, a builder's mindset, a pro human mindset. That is one just very likely to be aligned with most people's kind of core values that this is out there to, to combat narratives that, that it's not out there, that the whole world is poor. We know that the media ecosystem is generally a funhouse mirror, doesn't do a great job reflecting the realities of most Americans left, right, or in between in terms of what their priorities are, what their values are. It flattens people out, right? It flattens ideas out of the nature of the medium. So if the game is able to, at scale, give a broad swath of Americans across ideologies, the sense that, oh, I can be in community with my fellow Americans in a way that prioritizes, things like, you know, problem solving, things like, you know, the things that we all want. We want to be able to go to the doctor when we get sick. We want our kids to do better than we did. We want fair, application of the rule of law. We want economic output to like, there's just so much in common that air game allows, the depolarization movement to sort of drive awareness that there is a community of people for whom this is a not only a, common set of values, but that this set of values, when put into practice, has the potential to change political incentives if we're going to sort of stop consuming media. Excuse me. Yeah. If we're going to vote out politicians who are conflict entrepreneurs or dividers by trade, if we're going to economically affect for example, media companies because they're divisive and kind, sort of conflict entrepreneurs in their own ways. So you need in order to affect the systems and structures at scale, a large group of people to operate in a coordinated way. So the media aggregate for depolarization makes people aware of the existence of the of this growing movement and of its growing set of wins to actually affect structural, communal, political change. It's hard to do that without the numbers. And, there's so much, I mean, Braver Angels, an organization that for a long time has been, you know, the sort of grassroots, you know, grassroots backbone of depolarization, actually bringing people together right there that's such important, work. And if only everyone in the country could see that happening, then our sense of what's possible maybe starts to not only become more optimistic, more pro human and sort of builder oriented, but also, yeah, something that we share. Maybe it it starts to combat the idea that we don't have a shared sense of what's possible.
[00:20:30:02] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, yeah, that shared sense of what's possible. Tom is just it's so hugely important. And one of the things that I've been saying quite often, recently is the, this depolarization space, this bridge building movement can not, can no longer be like a secret society. You know, we talked about, before our, recorded part of our conversation. different places. Where was, you know, had, been speaking and things like that. And one of the things that I always hear when I'm out speaking at places is, you know, we didn't even know that there were other people out there. like me, I thought I was the only one that that, you know, felt this way or, or wanted this, this thing and, even Braver Angels, which is America's largest cross partisan grassroots organization, bringing people together, bridging these divides. You know, we got 15,000 plus members around the country and and 125 ish alliances. And there's still people I run into people every single day that that just don't know that, that this thing is a thing. And, the, the, the awareness piece is, is so hugely important when we think about that funnel and, and how we, you know, how we open up the top of that funnel to everybody. So they, they at least see that the funnel is there, you know, the consideration piece, everything else that that all comes down to content and the kind of content we're putting out there and the voices that are that are out there doing it, but that shared awareness that this thing is a thing, it is is the huge thing. So, so when we think about what that air game needs to look like, how do we build that out from, from somebody with your kind of experience? What does that look like? What do we how do we build that thing out.
[00:22:27:09] Tom Fishman: Yeah. So I think that, there's sort of two paths I built here. One is leaning into the inherent, beauty of, potential stories to tell in the depolarization space. I think there's one of the, a common refrain and a common concern in the depolarization space is that it seems like, sort of Kumbaya ish. Let's all get along. Depolarization is full of friction. It's full of tension. It's full of the things that make great stories, have always made great stories, regardless of the medium. Right? Families, you know, feeling tension torn apart, coming back together. You know, I mean, we see this in the news all the time. School systems upended, political strife. All these things, these things are fundamentally, interesting. And do you harness that? And, you know, to what end do you harness that interest? Is it to sew fear or is it? And this goes to the second thing is, is to demonstrate the ways in which having a kind of, you know, the growth mindset, the, that, you know, that pro human foundation is for bringing it to schools, to a curricula that the builders mindset, you know, these sorts of data that these things are not just nice to haves, they're not just Kumbaya. I mean, there's a small number of people who that's enough. It's like, yes, this is the this is a good way to be. We need millions upon millions, tens of million more people thinking not just a nice way to be. This is a good thing to do. Which means in our minds. Yeah. And, we need to believe that appealing, to our, pro human mindset is the best possible path to solve problems that we all feel we need proof. We need value proposition. This is, again, I'm trafficking in the marketing language. But, you know, when I see, for for example, I'll use a builders example. There's a program called Citizen Solutions that convenes people at the state level from all aspects. They just got done in Texas, convening people all over the state around health care. I mean, I mean truly far flung corners of Texas that have tons of overlap on, different elements of sort of health care policy, get them together, share experiences, work together that is fundamentally useful in and of itself as a sort of policy, as sort of our citizens assembly style mechanism. But when the world can see that, when the world sees that not only is common ground available, but solutions are possible based on people's willingness to work together across common ground that that changes things. That's, that's towards, into oh, that's a nice thing to have to I want to do that. And we have the health care issues in my state. Right. We have affordability issues in my state. Well like where's my citizens assembly? Where's my citizen solutions. It's it's and the air game allows us to turn what is you like. It's a big market of people who might like to do this into a movement of people who are actually doing it because they believe what? What I believe to be true. Because I've seen it. I suspect we share this, which is that these mindsets, this is this is the way forward. This is the way to solve the problems that afflict us across lines of difference. The reason we have in New York, in my home state, people in both traditionally red and blue districts who have voted for AOC and zero in on Dani and voted for Donald Trump is because they are united by the problems that they faced with affordability and the desire for a certain kind of a change. So we know that it's possible, but what is the path forward to actually solving those problems? We believe that is the actual living and practice of a builder's mindset, of a pro human mindset.
[00:26:01:16] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. No, that's a that's you know, you bring up the citizens solutions and Braver Angels actually has a, a, a new program that we're very excited about called citizen LED solutions. You know, one of the things that I've been talking about for a long time in this movement is, you know, one of, well, one of the big problems within the the bridging movement is there's not enough conservative voices like myself in this, in this space. And one of the things that I've always said is that if you want to bring in conservatives, you have to show them real, tangible results for the efforts that they're putting in a conservative like result. And, you know, talking is fine and talking is a certain thing. And it's it's important that dialog is always going to be important, Tom. But obviously, tangible results for the work that's being put in is always going to be a winning, USP, unique selling proposition when it comes to conservatives. Yeah. And citizen led solutions to common cause problems close to home. I love the example of the health care thing in Texas. But it doesn't have to be health care. It can be something as simple in your community as a as a roundabout or a stop sign, or it's a tax levy or whatever the case may be. When you start to show people that common ground is, is not Kumbaya, common ground is actually being able to have dialog, this word about contentious issues in a non contentious way and come to a result based solution. We we start to win. And then I then taken that to the air game. Right. That funnel how do we bring awareness to these things within our communities. So so when we think about the the, you know, citizen led solutions to common cause problems close to home, that's when we start to bring in that wider swath of people.
[00:27:56:19] Tom Fishman: That's right.
[00:27:57:03] Wilk Wilkinson: Because I mean, that's that's really it. It's not a I don't think it's a super complicated thing. But then, then one thing I want to, I want to I want to talk about real quick as we round out our time. I mentioned a little bit earlier and so did you. But but the algorithms in our social media and our media, especially our cable news media, which is often just a dumpster fire of toxic polarization in itself, but how do we take these citizen led solutions to common cause problems? You know, bring that awareness piece when the algorithms more incentivize or the cable news media or the loudest voices in our politics actually are winning the air game with their fear, outrage and grievance?
[00:28:51:01] Tom Fishman: Yeah, I think therein sort of lies. Basically one of the one of the toughest puzzles, but that if we look at, certainly, you know, I think, I think builders and other organizations in, in our sort of field broadly defined, it is possible to kind of harness the dynamics of the algorithm. They yes, they do risk reward, sort of anger, outrage, polarization, but they do reward great storytelling. They do reward, insight. They do reward surprise. They reward hope. And I think that those are things that if we can continue to bring to the fore, if we're, you know, I mean, it's a it's a I wish I had a more sort of satisfying, but you sort of have to be, you know, facile at the dynamics of social media and try to harness them in the direction, get the wind in the direction of your sales. And that is, it can be it can feel forced at times because you don't want to put a flattened piece of information out into the world. But you only get so many characters or so many images in the carousel or so many things. So one of the things you're constantly trying to balance is how to responsibly tell a story, not be a part of the problem that you're, but I but I but I, I think that builders in other words that we, you know, prove every day and that shows in the growth that, of these communities that it is very possible that there's, this proves out the market. Right. And I think that if we are effectively illuminating, demonstrating and activating, if we're illuminating the problem with insight, you know, stats on the sort of perception gaps that we have between each other, interesting sort of case studies, interesting people showing a huge diversity of people so that any American, on average, might look at a feed and see a piece of themselves in the depolarization movement like that is really important. You're sort of illuminating, you're demonstrating that this is actually a workable set of solutions, that this mindset can lead to real results, like you said. And then you're activated by giving people things to do. Hey, you can join a Braver Angels chapter. You can join a bridge USA chapter if you're, you know, on a college campus, you can, bring the Pro Human Foundation's curriculum into your school. You can, you know, follow and sign up for, you know, there's there many things you can do to continue to be aware, to grow your skill set and to continue to then that's that that the it's that next step is how does that sort of movement, that collective of people start to exert actual political will, actual force against the things that shape the structure of society from from the fill in the potholes, in the roundabout, in our community all the way up to, you know, the highest elected offices is like, we just need to, you know, and I mean that that just requires, a proper movement. And I think to, harness the algorithms is sort of step one.
[00:31:39:20] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. I couldn't agree more. I mean, the power of storytelling, Tom, is is always going to be a winner. But when people share their stories, every one of us has a story. Every one of us has been through storms. We've had our struggles and the stories that we tell and to shape that narrative. And when we start to tell those stories of collaborative action, of citizen led solutions, of getting real things done, we, we we start to win that narrative, and and we we can and then it's exponential. We started to grow.
[00:32:11:23] Tom Fishman: That's right.
[00:32:12:16] Wilk Wilkinson: We start to grow. We start to scale. Tom, this has been an incredible conversation again. Went way too fast. And there was there's there's so many things that you and I can get into. And I'm I'm sure we'll get into them later because, this is the first of many conversations, I'm sure, but, but, yeah, collaborative partnerships. One of the things that I'm taking away from this, this conversation is the right stories, the right, you know, collaborative partnerships. We can win this battle. There's a lot of a lot of things to be hopeful for, a lot of things to be grateful for. And, it's it's, you know, people like you in this space that are, are doing amazing things. Organizations like, Pro Human Foundation, Braver Angels Builders, we're all, we're all going in the same directions, even if it's different lanes. And we can make some incredible things happen. So thank you very much, Tom Fishman.
[00:33:01:05] Tom Fishman: Couldn't agree more. Thanks so much for having me, Wilk. And I just want to for, what the thing that I'm going to take away, from you on this one, I always take away so much, here, in here in your podcast, listening to you talk about this stuff, but results, right? Depolarization, these mindsets, these practices, they drive results. And we we know that to be true. Those of us who are doing the work on the ground and we just got to keep, you know, catapulting that into the air game and, making sure that tens of millions of Americans know that. But, yeah, we got our work cut out for us. But thank you so much for the time. Great to talk to you.
[00:33:30:10] Wilk Wilkinson: Thank you so much, Tom. I appreciate it, and we'll look forward to the next one. Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate the Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together, so please take a moment to visit BraverAngels.org and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divides. This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friends, I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
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