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Rich Harwood, founder of the Harwood Institute for Public Innovation, returns to Derate the Hate for a wide-ranging conversation about what he’s seeing on the ground in communities across America. Drawing from his recent article in The Fulcrum and his ongoing Campaign for the New Civic Path, Rich lays out a case that the division we feel is real — but it’s not the whole story. Beneath the noise, there’s a deep and growing yearning for something better. The question is whether we’ll tap into it.
Rich Harwood is the President and Founder of the Harwood Institute for Public Innovation. He is the author of nine books, including The New Civic Path: Restoring Our Belief in One Another and Our Nation. His work and writing appear regularly in major outlets including NPR, PBS NewsHour, the Washington Post, and The New York Times. Learn more at theharwoodinstitute.org.
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If today’s conversation resonated with you, take a deeper dive into Rich’s work, his writing, and his vision for rebuilding the civic culture we all share.
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[00:00:00:02] Wilk Wilkinson: We've heard the country's too broken to fix that. Were two divided. Too angry, too far gone. But what if the loudest voices in the room aren't telling us the whole story? Rich Harwood has spent years on the ground in communities across America, and what he's finding might just surprise you. People are ready. They're yearning. And the path forward does not start in Washington, D.C.. It starts right where you are. Welcome back, my friend, to the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross partisan organization working toward civic renewal, this podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ. Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the Hate, but together we can Derate the Hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast, share it with a friend and visit Braver Angels to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partisan divide. Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it. Rich Harwood is the president and founder of the Harwood Institute for Public Innovation. For nearly four decades, he's been doing the hard, unglamorous work of rebuilding communities from the inside out in places like writing Pennsylvania, Selma, Alabama, and Alamance County, North Carolina. He's the author of nine books, including his latest, The New Civic Path Restoring Our Belief in One Another and Our Nation. Rich isn't interested in theories. He's interested in what actually works when people choose to show up for each other. And in this conversation, he's bringing back talk about something he calls a new moral vision. Not a political platform, not a utopian dream, but a grounded, practical call to reclaim what we have in common and use it to build something real. If you've ever wondered whether any of this can actually change this episodes for you. Let's welcome back to the show, my friend Rich Harwood. Here we go. Rich Harwood, welcome back to the Derate the Hate podcast. It is so good to see you again, my friend.
[00:03:35:17] Rich Harwood: Wilk always good to be with you. Thanks for having me.
[00:03:39:18] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, absolutely. When I think the last time we were, we were talking here on the podcast. We were talking about the new civic path. You're bouncing around all over the country. just just doing these amazing things and the workshops all over the country and helping people out and, and the times that we're facing. And in this nation, Rich really has people on edge in a lot of ways. and now we're talking we're going to talk today a little bit about a little bit more about the new civic path, that campaign that's being being re-uped for this year. But but also a new moral vision is kind of the way that I took, took this article that you recently had in The Fulcrum. So so let's talk about let's talk about that article and what you were, what you were going for with that piece that came out in the fulcrum here back in February.
[00:04:37:19] Rich Harwood: Yeah. You know, I think there's a well, I don't think when I talk to people, there is a belief that we can't come together and do things and that we don't agree on anything and that we're not going to agree on anything, and that any attempt to say that there are things upon which we can agree is often seen as a utopian vision, as something sort of out there, a nice thing that we could get to, but it's not going to be anytime soon. And I actually think that as I travel across the country as you do and talk to people from all walks of life, what I'm hearing over and over again is that there is a deep yearning to come back into community life, and there is a deep yearning to seize a couple of things. One is a set of morals or a set of values that people believe we have lost sight of. We have somehow covered over. We have somehow forgotten, but actually we haven't, right? And what I hear is people saying, look, our society is becoming increasingly, increasingly cruel, that there are increasingly indecent moments that we don't. We talk about dignity, but we really don't don't uphold one another's dignity in practice. And so one part of this new moral vision is there is a desire, I think, to embrace a set of values around decency, around belonging, around dignity, that sit at the bedrock and need to sit at the bedrock of our society. In addition to that, there is a constellation of issues or concerns that people hold, that people are people will rally around. And in my work, what I'm finding they are rallying around things around you now mental health, around whole health, around seniors. And so what becomes important here is that if we're going to work on these, we need to deepen them, focus on what matters to people, call people back to something larger than themselves, and say, we can address these bread and butter issues and recreate a sense of can do spirit in the country, something larger than ourselves. And so I think it's a moral vision because it's something deeper than simply solving problems. It's about articulating and claiming who we seek to become individually and in our shared lives.
[00:07:12:03] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, yeah. No. And I hear that from, from people as well. And, and one of the things that I get, I go back to in terms of trying to kind of lift people up when they find themselves getting down, is, is that that is that that thing where they, they say, you know, society is becoming increasingly more cruel. And we are finding that, you know, we have less in common with our neighbors, or we have less common with with our fellow countrymen and things like that. Is is there is that perception. And for a lot of people, that perception becomes their reality. But I think you and I have seen Rich and to the point that you are making there is people are gravitating to that, that the goodness in other people and the and the things that they are seeing in their community. And if, if they let their perceived reality become something that they've just taken out of, out of the news or what they see on their social media feed or whatever, it's easy to get down and kind of lose sight of the good that's out there, but that, you know, when we when we talk, what, you know, when you when you said the perception, you know, that that perception gap immediately in my mind I go to More in Common, talks about the perception gap in terms of what people believe we have in common with each other and what we actually have in common with each other. And there's that there's that large gap where they think, oh, well, you know, if I'm a Republican, I've only got probably like 6 or 7 things in common with my, my, my Democrat friends. But there's a lot more than that that they just don't see anymore.
[00:09:08:10] Rich Harwood: Yeah. Well, I think there are two, at least two things. One is insist if we insist, I've got to put some boundaries on this. For me at least, if we insist that, you know, we're going to filter things through our Democratic or Republican or for that matter, independent lens, then I think we, as you know well, we are locked into a political frame. And then I think we we do experience a certain kind of division. If we focus on what matters to us in our daily lives. Right. What we find is that amid those political divisions, we want to work on a lot of things in common because we care about them, because they affect our daily lives, because they matter to how strong our communities are and whether or not each of us and all of us are going to thrive. And I think the other thing I was going to mention is that we can get stuck, as you know, and as you're saying, in this perception gap. And I think at least in the work that I do the way out is not to try to bridge the perception gap. It's to tap into what people are yearning for.
[00:10:26:00] Wilk Wilkinson: Okay.
[00:10:26:18] Rich Harwood: That's where the new moral vision sits. And what I would say is that the question is, you know, we've got these midterms coming up and everyone's saying, well, we just need to switch the control of the Congress. And then we've got a presidential race. We just need to switch who's in in the white House. And that may all be true. But don't forget we went from Obama to Trump to Biden to Trump. There's a reason for that. There's a reason for that. And I think the question is, what's the wave that will get us beyond this political frame? And I think it's a new moral vision that addresses the values people really care about and the issues that we can and will rally around so that we can get things moving in. I can do way.
[00:11:14:10] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. No. And I think that's hugely important. And yeah, I don't want, you know, certainly this conversation but even anything, you know, like a lot of the things that I talk about, I don't want them to be framed in just a political context.
[00:11:28:04] Rich Harwood: No.
[00:11:28:11] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. and I think that's hugely important because the reality is, is we as citizens, I mean, our political identities and our political convictions, that's just part a I would hope and I think you would hope that that's just a small part of who we are as individual human beings. It's it's not the whole of our identity, even though a lot of people have made it into that. But when we talk about a moral, a moral vision or, or moral clarity as individual human beings and the things that we have in common with our other human beings, a lot of those other things become a lot easier in terms of how we view the world. And, you know, if people get too stuck on one particular part of, what their societal norms or whatever the societal norms they want to live by, or and they get stuck in that one thing, well, if that thing isn't going your way, then you become miserable. And it's it's one of that, one of those natural things the same way with political. And you go, you know, talk about how you went from Obama to Trump to Biden to Trump. Well, when people have taken their vision of what the society they want to live in and put it in that strictly in that political lens, well, every four years or every two years, you'd just become miserable because your guy is not there or your people are not there, right? But as a society as a whole, if we start working together for that common vision and what we want to do and not frame or place all of our happiness in the political bucket or the, you know, the religious bucket or the what's happening here bucket. You know, I think we need to think in terms of bigger things.
[00:13:28:18] Rich Harwood: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, put your finger on something. I think if we asked the question, what kind of society do we want and what makes it up, what enables it, what literally works to create it. You wouldn't say politics alone.
[00:13:49:03] Wilk Wilkinson: You hope not.
[00:13:50:10] Rich Harwood: You would say the relationships we have, the ways in which we work together, the things that we believe, the norms that we have in our communities and in the country, the kinds of lives we create for one another. Like when I work in DeSoto County, Florida, which has been hit by four storms in the last two years, and they've got their really great, they've gotten knocked down, and they're really great at getting back up and being resilient. But their community, they would say the community isn't thriving. So when you ask them, well, what will create a thriving community for you? It's not politics. It's whether or not people can come together and get stuff done. It's whether or not people have a belief in one another. And so I think that's why we we need a new way to talk about and think about these things, or else we're going to continue. I believe we're going to continue to fall back into a political frame because there's no alternative pushing against it.
[00:14:46:23] Wilk Wilkinson: That's right, that's right. Well, and so so I think about a couple of things there, Rich, because one of the things that I've been saying for for quite some time now is, is and this goes to throwing everything into that political lens, is, is if you believe the government is a solution to or the cause of all of your problems, one way or another, you're going to lose, And then I also talk about the concept of subsidiarity and finding finding solutions with our community members to common cause problems closest to home, you know, finding that part of community. And this is another thing that stood out in your article that that well, it means a lot to me is, as you know, part of Braver Angels, because part of our next chapter at Braver Angels is really finding what we call courageous citizenship. But it really does start through that lens of being an individual. And then how does that translate into how are we going to work within our community to find those, those things? And then, then, then that scales out to nationally. And I noticed that you talked in that in your article as well about individual community and then how that affects us as a nation. So talk into that or talk to that arc a little bit for me, would you.
[00:16:12:12] Rich Harwood: Yeah. Well, I think again, I think this is why is what led me to the new moral vision and the new city path, which is that, you know, I think we face a crisis of belief in the country, in that belief in institutions, in leaders, in religious institutions, increasingly civic organizations and institutions and in each other. And I think increasingly in ourselves, we we doubt so many things. And so that crisis of belief, you know, we might we might elect a new president, but we still may not believe that we can make a difference. We still may not believe that our voice really matters. We still may not believe that we can come together and get things done. And so I think we've got to find a way to address this crisis of belief. I think that does start with individuals feeling that they are seen and heard, that their voice is valued, that they have a sense of dignity, that they have a sense of agency, that they can join with others amid our real differences and still do things that we can build together. And in order for that to happen, that can't start in Washington, D.C. or a state capitol. It can be augmented, it can be complemented, it can be supplemented. But this is the work that we need to do in recreating a sense of belief that we can actually come together with others amid across differences. Right. The differences aren't going away. And so that's why I think it's so important because this is about how we choose to show up as individuals, how we choose to engage with others, how we do that in community because communities where we can get this done and make it happen. And then to your point, you know, I think one of the great lessons of American history for this country, at least, is that so much of the significant change that we've created in our society started first in local communities and then spread and then rolled along, and then eventually national leaders, courageous, usually citizens, courageous leaders stepped forward with others and said, okay, let's make something happen here, something larger. But I think I think it's got to start with people, and I think it's got to start in our local communities, hopefully augmented by by national and state leaders.
[00:18:35:22] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, people, you know, people come to me and, and they're like, well, you know, I don't have a big circle of influence. I don't have a I don't have a podcast or a radio show or, or any of these, Any of these big platforms. You know, what am I going to do? You know what? You know, people feel like they've they've lost that sense of agency and, and and you I think you hit on it. There are a minute or two ago, Rich. it starts with being seen or feeling seen. Feeling heard, renewing that sense of dignity that a person has and, and really, I think the big thing to take away from that is it does not take a huge circle of influence. I mean, you don't have to have some big monstrosity of a platform. I mean, I love to you've got to quote, you know, be the change that you want to see in the world. Talk about some of the things that you found. I know you did a lot in Selma in terms of what the community has done, and Selma has been one of those communities. I mean, going back all the way, you know, back to the civil rights era, but they're still doing amazing things today.
[00:19:41:20] Rich Harwood: They are doing amazing things. They're doing amazing things. Folks in reading, Pennsylvania, are doing amazing things. We're about to release a new report on the work that people with that we did with people in Alamance County, North Carolina over 3 or 4 years. We just released two separate reports of individual counties in Jim Jordan's congressional district in Ohio that did amazing things. Here's the thing, Wilk, that goes to your point about not needing a major platform. Or I would add to that, not needing a comprehensive plan is that in all the change that I've seen happen in communities, it always started with small actions that catalyzed at least a chain reaction that took root and and had the ability to grow and spread over time. And whether it's in reading, Pennsylvania, which was declared the poorest community in America ten years ago, some Alabama were not long ago, I sat in the basement of Tabernacle Baptist Church, where they helped plan the walk over the Edmund Pettus Bridge, or in Alamance County, which is probably the most divided place from start to finish that I've worked in in 40 years. In every single case, the chain started small and grew, and when it did, people realized that they could address things like youth, like mental health stigma, like whole health, like homelessness, like housing, like men in transition, coming out of prison and looking for a better life for themselves. All of these things, people affected, they didn't have comprehensive plans. They didn't have big platforms. They didn't. None of this cost a lot of money.
[00:21:27:15] Wilk Wilkinson: Right?
[00:21:28:04] Rich Harwood: Right. Lot of money. In fact, money might have gotten in the way in a lot of cases because it would have acted and diverted people's attention. And so and in the process, people renewed their. And I think this is really critical. People renewed their spirit. There can do spirit that we can actually come together and not just talk, but get things done right. And in getting things done, we can then start to imagine how we can put the country back on a better path. And I think that's really important part of this.
[00:21:58:22] Wilk Wilkinson: I think it's it's hugely important rich, because there's so much. And this is this is where that distinction between big platforms and grassroots action comes from in my mind. And this is this is where a paradigm shift is needed for a lot of people is just think about it this way. I mean, think about some of the greatest things that have happened in, in the history of this country. And I would I would probably add some of the more meaningful things that have happened in this country happened long before, you know, we had anything called like an online influencer or, you know, these, these big platforms where where people have millions of followers and things like that. And, and I would argue that there are many of them are more corrupted by by that, that desire for clicks and, and things. I mean, that's how we get the, you know, the word of the year last year for Merriam-Webster or whatever was rage bait, right? I mean, the real meaningful change comes again in the basement of a church somewhere or.
[00:23:09:21] Rich Harwood: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, it's interesting, Wilk, is that I've started to say on our campaign that that politics can't save us.
[00:23:21:15] Wilk Wilkinson: That's right.
[00:23:22:05] Rich Harwood: And, you know, have a lot of friends who hear that and they're like, what? Are you out of your mind? You must be nuts. Of course, politics is going to save us. What the hell else is going to save us? And yet, when I think about good people who are running for office right now on both sides, sure, inevitably they have to take hard political positions. Inevitably they're going to run negative ads. Inevitably they're going to try to undermine their opponents, and negatively, they're likely to say things that are only half true. The nature of the beast that they've decided to to be part of. And the things I just want to circle this back to the conversation that we were having earlier, because I think it's so important that politics can't save us, because the things that we need, politics can't produce. It's what work that you do in Braver Angels, in the work that I do at the Institute and other people do, you know, all across the country in other ways is so important because politics can't create community. It can create a community of change agents for in support of a politician.
[00:24:30:02] Wilk Wilkinson: Sure, sure. That's a huge important point. Yeah.
[00:24:34:16] Rich Harwood: That's not what we're talking about here. It can't create meaning for us in our daily lives. It can't create a sense of connection. It can't create a sense of community. It can't create in the sense that we're talking about a sense of belief. Right. And those things are up to us. And it requires leaders, for sure. But that's different than politics, right?
[00:24:57:10] Wilk Wilkinson: No, that's absolutely. And I'm glad you brought that up because. Again, I don't want our conversation to be about politics. But politics seems to cloud people's judgments in they they think too or too often. I think people get that false impression that politics steers community. And it's it should be the other way around. And this is, this is this is what I think something that that is lost on too many people. Rich we've gotten into that, that paradigm where they're like and I've had conversations with politicians. I'm sure you have to well, well, we have to do it this way because if we don't, you know, and if we don't take this negative hard line, the other side's going to and then we've got to live by their rules. But that is that that is the mentality that gets that pendulum swinging out of control. It gets our Overton window on on so many things out of out of whack. If we want a community where we trust each other and we believe in each other and and we make the decisions and live by the rules that we want to live by. It takes community. It takes trusting our neighbor. It takes building institutions that are worthy of trust. That all starts with individuals. That is not something guided again by by Washington. Community needs to guide our politics. Our politics should not be guiding our community.
[00:26:42:20] Rich Harwood: Yeah, absolutely. I would say I would probably amend that. It's it's about I think it does start with individuals because individuals are the actors in the sense. Right? I think, two things. One is. As you were talking, I was I was thinking, okay, so what are we getting at here? And one thing is because, as you said, we don't want to make this all about politics, but we've circled back to it now a few times. And I think for me, one of the questions is, so what's the breakthrough here? And if one thinks it's politics to your last point, the pendulum will just keep swinging, particularly now because we're essentially at an impasse. And everything I know about impasses in working in communities in other places. Is that at an impasse? There might be agreement about what's wrong, but never about what we should do, which is why you keep having a pendulum swing, right? And until you get something that disrupts the pendulum swinging, you will remain in impasse. In fact, you go deeper into impasse, which is, I think, where we are right now. I happen to think that the breakthrough is, you know, these are my words, but a new civic path, because as we're saying, it brings people together. It gets them to agree on what we can agree on. You start to build, and you engender a greater sense of belief that we can actually come together and get things done. And then people inevitably say, well, that's the case, but we don't agree on anything, which I know you hear every single day. And I'm like, actually, no, there's a new moral vision. It's not that I've created it, it's that this is what's emerging across the country. And the question is, will we listen hard enough? Will we listen carefully enough? Will we be attuned to it and tap into it in a way that creates a new wave of momentum moving forward? And I think that's I think that's our, our at least from where I'm sitting. That's our shared task.
[00:28:53:23] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. So if we think about, what this new moral vision is, right. Because we are made up of, of a, a whole lot of individuals in this country with, with different visions of what morality is and, and, and how we all fit into this bigger puzzle, you know, of Epirus Unum, so that moral vision than Rich how does. How does one individual from the next individual see themselves in that new moral vision?
[00:29:29:20] Rich Harwood: That's a great question. I'm really glad you asked it. So I think when you think about a moral vision for society as opposed to our individual moral visions, I think, you know, when I work with faith communities across the country, one of the challenges is as soon as you start talking about things around community, people of different faiths or different denominations begin to defend their doctrinal beliefs before, you know, you're kind of in a war here. And one of the things I've found that unlocks that is to say to folks, I'm not asking you to give up your doctrines and beliefs and your teachings in your texts. I'm wondering whether or not there is something that we can work on together that has a civic purpose, that allows you to maintain your beliefs. You need to send them. And I think that's true for a moral vision. So I think there are different, as you know, there are different notions of of decency and dignity and all sorts of things in different teachings. But I think there is a common basis upon which we think decency can and should exist, upon which belonging can and does exist, upon which dignity should and can exist. And I think it's that ground that we have to move toward and not ask people to give up their identity and their beliefs all the time in service of something civic.
[00:31:05:03] Wilk Wilkinson: Right.
[00:31:05:13] Rich Harwood: And I think that's that's the only that's the only thing I've seen that can unlock this, this division that to your point, this perception of division that we've locked ourselves into.
[00:31:21:11] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, yeah. And that's I love the idea of bringing it back to the idea of of what can we I mean, it's got to be that, that shared vision of what the civic fabric of this nation is. Right. And I think I think civic is the one word that, that people often forget about, you know, and especially when they start thinking about morality. Right. And trying to interject their morality into where everything else fits. And if but I think if we if we recognize that again, going back to that idea of Unum, there are a lot of us here of many one. That's right. And we are going to share this country that that belongs to all of us, because you cannot just continue to have a civil society while dismissing a whole portion of the people that make it up. So we have to find if we can tie that morality back to what does a civic society look like, we can hold our strongly held convictions and live our life in that way, but bring it back to center and say, this is what that Civic Overton window needs to look like. If you want to do a little bit out here, that's fine. You want to do a little bit out here, that's fine. But our Civic Overton window has to remain centered, and we all have to be able to agree on that to make this thing work. Because if you don't, what's the alternative exactly?
[00:33:13:12] Rich Harwood: Well, the alternative is what you were getting at earlier, I think, which is, you know, the influencers online will rule the most, the loudest and most divisive voices in politics will rule the most divisive advocacy organizations will take over. I mean, this is where actually I started this whole new civic campaign, which was we have a vacuum in public life that's everyone's retreated or they're in a fight mode. And, you know, people of good faith, I don't mean religious faith, good civic faith have retreated. They're so beat up and we need to return and fill this vacuum or else. To your point, what's the alternative? Right and right. And but, you know, for me, the grounding and I know this is suspect. This is true for you. Whenever I wonder whether or not any of this can work and whether or not it matters and whether or not it's realistic, I just think about the different people I've been working with in different places across the country that the you know, if there was a news article about it, they would say, oh, these people could never work together and produce something. And yet, you know, I've said this to you before. Well, you know, in Jim Jordan's congressional district, I can't tell who voted for the congressman and who didn't. Right. I've been working. I worked there for three years with folks for years. I still can't tell. I don't know, it never really comes up, and I'm sure. At least, you know, 65% of the folks in that in those counties voted for the president. So let's just say half of the people I'm working with voted for the I can't tell who voted for the president and who voted for Congressman Jordan and who didn't. Yeah. And what I can tell, I hope this doesn't sound like I'm on a soapbox, but what I can tell is that people across the spectrum want a greater sense of decency in our society. They believe that belonging is really important. They believe that decency is really critical. They want you to thrive. They want to. They know everyone. So many people they know suffer from mental health to lemmas that we've got to address it. They know there is an affordable housing because people are having to move farther and farther away to find affordable places to live. And so they want these things to be fixed. And I think importantly. They not only want them fixed, they want to do it in a way that creates a better country that reflects the better parts of us.
[00:36:02:13] Wilk Wilkinson: No, that's right. That's absolutely right. And I don't know how much rich you're familiar with the Dignity Index and and what like Tim Shriver and Tammy Pifer and them have done over there. But you talk about the dignity barometer and and they came up with data that that shows like 94% of all Americans want all human beings treated with, with a large degree of dignity and understanding. But then that out of that same polling, there's only like 30 some of them that believe that's actually happening right now. That is a big, big gap. It's, you know, so it's like, how do we close that gap between those that want everybody treated with dignity and actually feel people are being treated with dignity? And that's why I know that's one of the reasons that you work so hard at the work that you do with the Harwood Institute. One of the reasons I do so much work with, you know, Braver Angels Pro Human Foundation, other organizations that I work with, I truly believe that most people, whether in to your point about, you know, Jim Jordan's district, most people, whether they voted for President Donald Trump or not, want the best for this country and their neighbors. Yeah. Most people, want the best thing for their kids, their neighbors kids, their their parents, their, you know, it's just there's there's tweaks that need to be made, some paradigm shifts that need to happen in order for us to get there. And the reality, Rich is, I love the work that you've done with the new civic path, this new moral vision. Yeah. And it being a civic vision, these things, they're not I mean, it's let's face it, it's not rocket science. It's humanity. And recognizing the humanity in our fellow human beings, our fellow countrymen and people who, like you said, have checked out that whether you call them the exhausted middle or the silent majority, whatever you want to call them, those people that have checked out need to check back in, because that gap is created when the voices that are want what we want. Stop talking.
[00:38:33:10] Rich Harwood: Yeah, absolutely. And then I think the question becomes, okay, what's the path back in? Right. And obviously there are many paths back in. that's why we're talking today. But but yeah, that's you know, the more I travel across the country the more don't say convinced, the more it becomes apparent whether you call it the new Civic path or something different, people are there is this yearning. People are looking for a way back. They don't know what it is yet. But when they hear of possibilities, as you know, in your work with braver angels and pro human foundation and other things. People will step forward.
[00:39:17:03] Wilk Wilkinson: They will. Yeah. You and I have you and I have had an opportunity to speak with a lot of them. There are a lot of great people out there doing credible things. And rich, the work that you're doing with the Harwood Institute for Public Innovation has always been something that I've truly admired. And and yeah, for all those people listening to this, that, that don't know what that path is to get back in and to get involved to, to help change your perception of things. Maybe they're out there. We meet them every day. You and I talk to them every day. Rich. Yeah. You've got a lot of people, a lot more people out there that want to do things. And you and I get to talk to them and everybody out there listening. Make your voice heard. Make it happen.
[00:40:05:13] Rich Harwood: Here here. Absolutely. Wilk, thanks for having me again. I always enjoy being with you. I always admire all the work that you're doing. It's tireless and and really important.
[00:40:17:10] Wilk Wilkinson: Thank you so much, Rich Harwood, I appreciate it. We will do it again.
[00:40:21:12] Rich Harwood: Sounds good.
[00:40:26:16] Wilk Wilkinson: Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate The Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together. So please take a moment to visit Braver Angels and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divide. This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friend. I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
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