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In this episode, Wilk Wilkinson sits down with Corey Nathan — entrepreneur, podcast host, and bridge-builder — for a wide-ranging conversation about the forces that divide us and the choices that can bring us back together.
Corey's entry point into this work isn't theoretical. When he converted from Orthodox Judaism to Christianity in his late twenties, he had to navigate one of the most emotionally loaded conversations imaginable with his father. His dad considered sitting shiva — the Jewish mourning ritual — treating his son's choice as a kind of death. What pulled them back from that edge wasn't agreement. It was a father who decided his relationship with his son mattered more than his convictions.
That story is the foundation for everything else in this conversation.
Corey Nathan is the host of Talkin' Politics and Religion Without Killin' Each Other and founder of SCAN Media LLC. He's spent his career with one foot in business and one in creative work — from executive search to theatre to podcast production. His bridge-building work grows directly from his personal background: raised in an observant Jewish home, he became a Born-again Christian in his late twenties, a journey that required engaging difficult conversations about religion, politics, and identity with his family and his faith community. He's been married to Lisa for over 28 years and has three kids.
✅ Website: www.politicsandreligion.us
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✅ LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/coreysnathan
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[00:00:00:00] Wilk Wilkinson: Have you ever experienced the uncomfortable cost of sharing a truth that you know will land hard for someone you love? Corey Nathan grew up in an observant Jewish home in his late 20s. He made a choice that he knew would change everything. What happened next? The letter. The silence. The real possibility of being considered dead. Days. Family. It changed how he thinks about every hard conversation he's had since. That's just some of what we're talking about today. Stick with me and we'll get into it. Welcome back, my friend, to the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross partisan organization working toward civic renewal, this podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ. Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can debate the hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast, share it with a friend and visit Braver Angels to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partisan divide. Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it. My guest today is Corey Nathan, host of the podcast Talking Politics and Religion Without Killing Each Other. And he's someone who's been doing the hard work of bridge building long before. It was a talking point. Corey's backstory is unlike most. He was raised in an observant Jewish household, and in his late 20s, he became a born again Christian. That single decision forced him into some of the most difficult conversations imaginable with his father, with his faith community, and eventually with the church itself, where he found political convictions sometimes running louder than Scripture. Those experiences didn't push him away from the hard conversations. They made him better at them. Today, Corey produces multiple podcasts through his company, Scan Media. He collaborates with people across religious, political and social divides, and he keeps showing up to ask the questions that most people would rather avoid. He's got a lot of wisdom to share and little patience for people who won't read the end of the chapter. Let's get into it with my friend Corey. Nathan. Here we go. Corey Nathan, welcome back to the podcast, my friend. It's so good to see you again.
[00:03:43:03] Corey Nathan: Good to see you. Wilk, thanks for having me back, man.
[00:03:45:19] Wilk Wilkinson: Absolutely. You know, we've had a number of conversations, Corey. I think we've only been on this podcast one time before back in. Must have been back around episode 200 206 something.
[00:04:01:12] Corey Nathan: It's like go either way. It's like in the 1900s. Well, what's going on?
[00:04:06:10] Wilk Wilkinson: It's been well, it seems like it's been forever. And well, in terms of the number of things that have happened in the world and everything that's been going on, it certainly seems like forever.
[00:04:17:05] Corey Nathan: Yeah.
[00:04:17:15] Wilk Wilkinson: So so here I am still doing the Derate the Hate podcast. There you are still doing the Talking Politics and Religion podcast and, and all things that, that go along with that. So yeah, let's get into it. I want to I want to reintroduce you to the listeners. So, Corey, tell me how you got into this kind of bridge building space, this how do we bring people together to talk about contentious issues? Space. Because that's always a good place to start. It's a good story to to get people thinking about how did this guy start doing this?
[00:04:57:04] Corey Nathan: There's there's a part of me I really want to start with that. The beginning of that, the Steve Martin movie, The Jerk I was. No, I can't, I just I can't pull that off. But no. So speaking of the 1900s, at the very end of the 20th century. I was still so I grew up in an observant Jewish family.
[00:05:18:02] Wilk Wilkinson: Very. We went to an Orthodox synagogue and all and but then in my late 20s, I, I won't get into the details unless you want to, but I, I became a Christian. That's the, that's the, the, you know, just kind of getting right to the end of that, that part of the story. But how how I got into the bridge building is Thanksgiving morning of 2000.
[00:05:40:19] Corey Nathan: We took a red eye home. I was already living on the West coast, flew back to new Jersey. My parents were still living in the house where I grew up, and took a red eye back Thanksgiving morning, and I took my dad out to the front porch, and we had this really long talk, and I was explaining to him why that I had become a Christian and you know why. And he had a very withdrawn response at first. But about a month later, he sent me this ten page single spaced letter spelling out all the reasons why I cannot become a Christian. And it was from every angle you could imagine, obviously, a filial obligation and emotional, historical, but also political, let alone religious and all the other stuff. And that letter really was the beginning of a conversation that in a lot of ways, we're still having. In fact, I'm meeting him for drinks tomorrow night, and probably this is probably what we're going to be talking about. And I got to tell you, man, those first three years were probably more than that. 3 or 4 years were really hard. In fact, in between the time that we had the initial talk on Thanksgiving morning and when he sent me that letter, he had considered doing what's called sitting shiva, which is the the ritual that Orthodox Jews go through when an immediate family member dies. Or in this case, you've done what I did was the equivalent of a death. But he he decided not to because ultimately he made a decision that really kept us in the conversation. And that was he decided that his relationship with his son was more important than any convictions he had. Even these generational like we've been Jews for thousands and thousands of years, man. So he thought that his relationship with his son transcended the convictions that he felt, you know, across those generations. And I'm glad he did, obviously. And but that was the beginning of it. And then the political part of it was when I started going to church, I realized a lot of guys I was going to church with, I was what brought me to the Lord was there was a lot of things. But really what brought me to the Lord is the Lord himself, the words of Jesus Himself. When I finally got myself to read Scripture, now I maybe I don't know if your audience is religious or not. It's not. I'm not really trying to evangelize here, but I'm just saying how it affected me the first time I cracked open the New Testament, the words of Jesus really hit me, you know? So I was compelled by Scripture. But when I started going to church. I realized a lot of guys weren't nearly as compelled by Scripture as they were about whatever news feed they were watching, you know? Yeah, political issues were very prominent for them. And then if we were in a Bible study and we came across Scripture that, you know, passages in the Bible that were at odds with their political and convictions, the political convictions took precedence. So I started finding myself in these uncomfortable, I was going to say uncomfortable conversations, but sometimes I was kicked out of those Bible studies. Yeah, yeah. That's the religious and the and the politics and all. It all intertwines man.
[00:08:51:22] Wilk Wilkinson: Okay. So lots of packed there right. Yeah. So first let me let me I got I got to dig into this thing, you know with your dad a little bit deeper because that is one of those things and one of the, one of the things that I see that that always tears at my, you know, my heart a little bit each, each time since I've been in the, in the bridge building and kind of political polarization, toxic polarization space is when I hear of stories where people have have lost family members, not truly to losing them in terms of losing their life, but people who have separated themselves from family members for whatever kind of disagreement. I mean, it's it's always a tough thing to hear about. It's certainly a tough thing to tough thing to get my mind around. I, I, I, I was kind of a strange from my family for a number of years because of, well, first of all, I just moved to the other side of the country and, we spent a lot of years apart. But then there was a couple of years in there where we didn't even, you know, kind of connect because of some, some things that that had made me angry. And I was very obstinate about it. And, and they were, you know, there were some of them that I wouldn't talk to. And, and even my father, who was, was like my, my great hero in many ways. We didn't talk for a couple of years because of that same thing. So so I can I can relate to what you're saying. But this.
[00:10:35:23] Corey Nathan: Hey Wilk, Wilk, can I if I can interject, was that over political issues. Or otherwise?
[00:10:40:22] Wilk Wilkinson: No, this was not political issues.
[00:10:42:08] Corey Nathan: This was family strife.
[00:10:44:04] Wilk Wilkinson: This was a family thing. a thing where I was holding strong to my convictions on a particular thing. And, and they held strong to their convictions on a particular thing. And we just chose to say, you know what? Then maybe we just don't need to talk to each other anymore. And we spent a couple of years in that space. And it's, it's it's a couple of years that, that probably one of my biggest regrets in my life. So, so when I see people or hear stories about people, Corey who whose family members have have kind of turned them out of people that have turned their family members out, I immediately think back to that time and that, that, that thing that that did to me and still what it does to me today. So when that happened, Corey and your father wrote you that letter and, you knew he was considering the sit and shiva thing. What did that do to you? I mean, where were you in your head space. Did you have any.
[00:11:48:08] Corey Nathan: That's a great question, man. I just got chills remembering that time because I had I, I had a idea of the cost of coming to this conclusion and making this decision, but I didn't feel it until I considered the possibility of man. I didn't realize how much my father's approval meant to me, you know, and and then in that moment of darkness and we stayed in a sense of darkness, even though we were communicating over those first few years really made me measure, do I really believe this is this, is this like, just forget the whole thing, you know? Listen, you know, I remember thinking I was late 20s, I was about to turn 30. We were about to have her first kid. And I was thinking, man, you know, I've done some dumb things. I had a mullet in high school, you know, so I eventually I just realized that I cut my hair, you know, and I could get over some dumb decisions, you know, like. But then I just. I realized, no, man, this is true. I can't, I can't shake, I can't shake truth. And if if it cost me the approval of the one that that matters the most, like my earthly father, it is what it is, I just can't. I got to deal with that, you know? So does that answer your question?
[00:13:30:16] Wilk Wilkinson: It does. And and I think that's, that's going to be something that's, that's very difficult for a lot of people to relate to. But I want to turn that into something else right now, because it's one thing when we as human beings, especially those of us that are Christians, our heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, is one thing to to be that follower of Jesus and make decisions here on earth, that that will undoubtedly affect that relationship. That's one thing.
[00:14:07:01] Corey Nathan: Yeah.
[00:14:07:18] Wilk Wilkinson: But when we start to turn out family members, Corey, because of our political identity or or that person, that, that person that we feel is is something bigger than life here on Earth, that's an entirely different animal. And quite honestly, now that I think about it, I just something occurred to me just now that I it was you and I talking about it, and I don't know if it was on this show or another show, but the first time I came up with the phrase Trump messianic syndrome, I said, I said that there's Trump Derangement Syndrome and there's Trump messianic syndrome. And they're both dangerous, very dangerous. And I don't want this to get into a conversation, this to be a conversation about Trump. That's not what this is for. But but I do want to talk about the idea that there are things that we do when we take our political identity and pull it so hardcore into our personal identity, our political identity becomes our core identity. And now you're in these Bible studies where people have have taken their political beliefs and put them in front of. Put them in front of Scripture, put them there. They're they're making that the you know, if they can't mold the words and the good book to what they believe politically, they're taking their political beliefs over the good Book.
[00:15:54:10] Corey Nathan: Yeah.
[00:15:55:02] Wilk Wilkinson: Talk to me about that, because I think that's that's something that people probably when they're doing it because of their own bias, they and and most of the time I'm just going to say it out loud. I think most of the time that bias and what they're thinking is going to be guided by the US versus them tribalism.
[00:16:17:22] Corey Nathan: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:16:19:00] Wilk Wilkinson: It's not necessarily, you know, maybe the it's not in my opinion or from my experience, it probably hasn't been when I've seen things like this. It's not that that, they believe so much in their political philosophy. They start believing so much in how evil the other side is. So if they can't kind of mold that to fit, that narrative of that person is evil, especially in the book that really defines more than anything in the world. But good versus evil is.
[00:16:56:19] Corey Nathan: Yeah.
[00:16:58:03] Wilk Wilkinson: Then they got to start changing. Changing what they're seeing and they don't see clearly. Dive into that a bit.
[00:17:05:02] Corey Nathan: Sure. So I should have had a warning sign from the very moment that I not when I told my dad. Well, I guess I could have had a warning sign there then too. But when I went in to tell my mom, we didn't have nearly as long of a conversation and and that interaction, if that could be captured. That's a sitcom right there. My mother is about as quintessential of a New York Jewish mother as you can get. But one of the things among among others, she was she her first reaction was, I was like, mom, she she acted like she didn't hear me. And she I said, mom, did you hear me? I said, I became a Christian. And she goes, she goes, I'm sorry. I just never thought I'd have a son who was walking with Jesus. You know, she didn't always say. And then. And then she starts talking in Yiddish to my father. And my father's in the other room. They have a way of, like, yelling at each other from across the house. She goes, Ronnie, do hast? Which means, did you hear? Do has a son and she's still speaking Yiddish. A son is a born again Republican. Like she didn't know what was worse. The Christian part of the Republican part. I'm like, mom, I've always been a little Alex P Keaton. But like this. Now it's bothering you now that you know Jesus father. So there's that. She associated she made that association that, you know. But the funny thing is, when I was going to church is that I remember one time we were in Hebrew, Hebrew Bible, which is like, you know, that's my home turf in Leviticus, actually in Torah. So, yeah, we were in Leviticus, and I think it was Leviticus 19, if I remember correctly, where, we were at the top of the chapter. There are a couple guys in there, the big closed border guys, not not just like closed border policy guys, but like explicitly anti-immigrant guys. And like, I, we could get into the policy if you want, but like I, I've heard out guys, you know, and you know, a closed border policy, you know, people can make an argument for it from a policy standpoint from, you know, that's a whole different conversation. But the, the, the chapter itself, if you're trying to use that chapter of all chapters for to, to substantiate a closed border policy, it's just the opposite. So I forget it was the first time or second time I literally got kicked out of a Bible study. I said, hey, can we read to the to the end of the chapter? Because the end of the chapter is that, in fact, I should pull it up. The end of the chapter is where it says where the Lord says, you know, you were you were a stranger in a strange land, kind of a thing. Leviticus 19. Whoops, sorry. I'm going to pull it up because this is a really important, where it says when a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native born. Love them yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God, so I. But but they were at the top of the this very same chapter, trying to make the case for a closed border policy. I said, listen, you can make that argument if you want, but you have to read the rest of the chapter, and it'd be good if we actually read the rest of the book to, you know, and, you know, I'm saying it in a certain way now that maybe a little bit more funny or a little bit more diplomatic, but I was listen, I'm from Jersey, so I got sharp elbows, you know. Yeah, I was fired up. So I probably deserved to get kicked out of that one. But the point is people get get they get married. It's called a priority. You know, I'm sure you're familiar with that. It's like you start with where you want to end up, and then you're just backing everything into it, regardless of what the Scripture says in this case.
[00:20:42:21] Wilk Wilkinson: So you're just working to you're just working to find a way to prove where you want to be, rather than looking at the evidence that's on the journey to find out where you're going to go.
[00:20:54:05] Corey Nathan: Yeah.
[00:20:54:21] Speaker 5: I'll give you just just.
[00:20:56:08] Corey Nathan: To be fair, like there's there's stuff that there's a word that's often translated as homosexual that comes up. I don't think that's the best translation that I've studied a little bit of the Aramaic and and the Greek, but I don't think that's the best translation. But still, there's a word that comes pretty close to that, that word several times, especially in in Paul's letters, Titus and First Timothy, Romans, and, you know, friends who start out with a certain view of LGBT issues, we have to reckon with what what if we're Christians and we say Bible is authoritative? We got to reckon with that. You know, we can't just pretend like, oh, it doesn't really say that. Or, you know, we got regardless of what our political leanings are, one way or the other, we got to reckon with what it actually says. If we say that this thing is now for those you know, I know this isn't necessarily a religious podcast. So for those who aren't religious, you can also look at philosophy. You can look at the Constitution. I mean, let's look at it from purely American standpoint. First amendment says what it says. You know, it's not like some ancient scripture that we got to translate through different translations. It's pretty clear what the First Amendment says. Fourth amendment, Fifth Amendment, 14th amendment. We got we got to reckon with what it says. If we say that we're in favor of the Constitution, we love the Constitution, you know, so it's a matter of do you are you more committed to what you think and what you believe, or you committed to higher, transcendent principles where there's a Constitution, whether it's a Bible, whether it's sound philosophy or something else, that's the idea, you know, are we the end all, be all? Am I the end all, be all, or are we? Are we committed to the conversation and these other transcendent, these other transcendent truths that we're we're learning and deferring to, you know, it's it's it's hard balance.
[00:22:53:11] Wilk Wilkinson: No, it is a hard balance. And I think a lot of the stuff that you're saying, I think especially going back to the a priority thing and, and people's willingness to again, I mean, it can be called confirmation bias or whatever. They decide where they want to be for an end result, what's their desired outcome. And then they just cherry pick evidence, right? between our starting point and our desired outcome, and the only evidence that they they gravitate to is the evidence that supports their desired outcome, not knowing that they often cheat themselves out of everything else. I mean, it's, you know, when we talk, when I think about this in terms of bridge building, Corey and, and how how us versus them tribalism has affected almost everything that we that we see today, you know, and unfortunately, it affects the church very much that, you know, in as, as, as evidenced by what you're saying here. But when we think about us versus tribal us versus them tribalism and how how that I, you know, I call that I call it the Us versus Them paradigm. And then I use a metaphor like it's, it's these glasses, right. It's these glasses that, that are spray painted blue and red and, and they're so really they, they convoluted so much of what we see. But once you pull them glasses off and you start to see things. Well, for me personally, I never saw things more clearly as when I finally just pulled off the glasses of us versus them tribalism, because it's one of these things where when you constantly or you decide that that the other side is evil incarnate in some way, right? Or they're the they're the greatest civilizational threat that we face. Well, it's very easy to fall into the trap that now all I'm going to see out there all the time. I also talk about this in terms of a reticular activating system. But all I'm going to see at this point, if I decide that the left is the greatest threat that we face as a nation, I'm only going to see and and really compartmentalize those things that verify that in my mind. Yeah, that they're that they're the greatest threat that we face. So that's why I'm constantly contending, that. The real threat that we face, the only true threat that we face, the only true existential threat that we face. Let me be clear. There is that is us versus them tribalism. Yeah, because it goes both ways. And this is what people fail to understand. You know, there's people on the right that think that the only true threat that we face in this country is those that are on the left, and there's people on the left that think that the only true threat that we face in this country is those that are on the right. And and these things that you're talking about, evidence of that, because we see those things happening and we and we hear those things said from people all across the political spectrum. libertarians say the greatest threat that we face is Democrat Democrats and Republicans. Right. And Republicans say the greatest threat we face is Democrats and vice versa. Talk a bit about that.
[00:26:31:12] Speaker 5: So it's.
[00:26:34:13] Corey Nathan: I'm reminded of this tendency that many of us have to only hear the criticisms, you know, so we can let's say, I don't know, I'm just coming up with this off the top of my head, but you do a karaoke and it's pretty good and you get a bunch of people, oh, that was great. Oh, that was awesome. I didn't know you could sing. You had a good range and you sound just like Elvis or whatever. Like all kinds of compliments and even your even your wife looks at you and says, hey, baby, I think you're getting lucky tonight, you know? Yeah, but but then that one person was like, you know, you had a booger hanging out of your nose, or, I don't know, just something, just something that was just minutely critical and it was just one person. What do you think you're going to be up all night thinking about? Is that one person who had that one critical thing to say? Same thing with like, you know, social media works the same way.
[00:27:21:02] Wilk Wilkinson: Social Media news feeds prime example.
[00:27:23:05] Corey Nathan: Your mind is focused. It's like the opposite. Somebody made an illustration one time. He was trying to make. It was actually in a Bible study. He was trying to make an illustration of what the light does, and we made the room as dark, as dark, as dark as dark possible. And then he lit a match. And of course, all of her eyes were trained on that one little light in the entire room. That was the only light. So that's the opposite of it. I know people that in this us versus them mindset, they can't even take the win. So I'm, I'm, I'm in a conversation with them or wearing a dialog and email back and forth and I'm agreeing with them. And I remember saying to this one, dude, we're actually pretty good buddies. We play poker every once in a while. And I was like, dude, take the win. I just agreed with you. You can't. You can't even hear me when I'm agreeing with you because he's so used to reflexively, like, oftentimes reflectively, the first thing out of his mouth, even if we're in a long back and forth, is some version of what about, you know, like I shared an essay with him where there are some words that are really valuable words. Words like conservatism, words like Christian words like patriot, words like truth. These are really great words. And his response was, well, what about man and woman? What about, you know, he came from a certain perspective and he kind of like, look, you have a point. But that's not it's not turf I want to defend. Those aren't my issues. I'm not going to argue with you. I said.
[00:29:02:09] Speaker 5: Do you ever.
[00:29:03:03] Corey Nathan: Think of the phrase starting with the phrase yes. And as opposed to what about, you know, yeah, he just doesn't know how to do that. It does. It. It's foreign to him. You know.
[00:29:12:21] Wilk Wilkinson: What about isms is one of the worst political strategies that I've ever seen. But it's absolutely what we see so often when when somebody starts talking and this kind of going off the rails a little bit. But yeah, the whataboutisms thing.
[00:29:31:01] Corey Nathan: Is the where was your outrage when that's another version.
[00:29:33:21] Wilk Wilkinson: Of outrage when you know, so so if somebody brings up something today that Trump does during this administration, the immediate response is not trying to defend that for its own merits or, It's instantly, well, what about you know, well, what were you saying during the the Biden administration when Biden did this very similar thing? Right. And it's like, okay, well, first of all, you're picking the wrong guy to have that argument with because I was critical of every single thing that during his administration, too. But here that goes to a bigger point, Corey. And that's, you know, when you talked about, you know, take the win. Take the win is such a huge thing. And this again goes goes to the idea of, of the reticular activating system that I talk about so often. Right. When people when when people talk about they start to focus on go to your karaoke analogy, they start to focus their energy on that one person that said, oh yeah, you got a booger hanging out of your nose or or your voice cracked on this particular whatever, this this is one of those things. And it's it's one of the worst parts of our human nature, right? Is we if that's what we choose to focus on, that's what we will get more of, not because it's the reality, but that is our perception of what reality is, and our perception becomes our reality. There's an old phrase I really like that says one person will see the one flower in a field full of weeds, and another person will see a field full of flowers, and they'll only see that one weed. it's your perception becomes your reality. And if you focus on the, the one little weed, it's going to take away all the beauty that's in the rest of that field. Yeah. You know, but if your mind is right and you're in the right headspace, you know, and you don't focus on the negative, you can look at a field full of weeds and find that one beautiful flower. Your eyes will gravitate to it. The reticular activating works reticular activating system works very much the same way. And this is the ugly thing about politics. And what politics has done is because now we have these outrage entrepreneurs, these grievance grifters, these these paid gaslighting that are out there and, you know, rage merchants that will find that one thing that they know is going to drive people absolutely nuts, and they will key on it and they will put it out there and they will beat it like a dead horse, knowing that people will scoop that up and they take that thing, that ugly thing, that piece of outrage bait, and they make that the whole thing. Yeah. That's how we end up with these caricature style visions of who the other side is because people will see that other side, not for who they are, but for those few things that those rage merchants, those outrage entrepreneurs want us to see. Yeah. And it turns the whole it turns the whole thing upside down. And then it's a perpetual cycle. We start to silo ourselves. We imagine them to all be the worst thing that they could possibly be, and we lose sight of the fact that they're even human beings.
[00:33:10:02] Corey Nathan: Wilk, could you tell me? I've heard the phrase before, but I'm not sure I know what it means. Reticular activating system.
[00:33:17:18] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, the reticular activating system is a little thing right at the base of our our back of our brain. It's in our brain stem about the size of the end of a pencil. Or like this pen that I'm holding up. And it's this little thing that says we only have as human beings the ability to focus on any, you know, just a couple things at any given time, like a very small number of things that are happening around us at all times, kind of our situational awareness. Yeah. But it's also our mental awareness and all the things that we're we're taking in and really understanding at any given time.
[00:33:53:14] Corey Nathan: Yeah.
[00:33:54:02] Wilk Wilkinson: What it also does is it keeps those things fresh in our minds so that they are more visible. The the thing that I use as an example most often here, Corey, is if when I owned before I own my Silverado now, I had an avalanche, I had an avalanche. Chevy Avalanche had it for about 11 years, and I loved that truck. And every time I saw another avalanche on the road, I mean, every time another avalanche went by, I saw him. Yeah, it was like my eyes gravitated to them because that was what was so familiar to me. It was my avalanche and their the that thing was each time I saw one, it it just I don't care if it was in my peripheral vision, if it was straight on, if I saw it in the mirror, whatever it was, I noticed it because my brain noticed it, because that was what was familiar. When I got rid of my avalanche and got my Silverado, I didn't see nearly as many avalanches anymore. It's not because everybody got rid of their avalanches at the same time that I did. Yeah, but it wasn't that familiar anymore. But you know what? I did see more of the Silverados.
[00:35:01:09] Corey Nathan: Yeah, right. It's funny, my son just got a silver. The same thing. He had an F150, like a 2002 F-150. For the first five years he was driving. Just got a Silverado. Now he sees Silverado. You see him all over the place?
[00:35:14:01] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. And the same thing happens. And this is why I talk about the the perpetual victim mentality, Corey. And we can get into this deeper in another conversation. But the reality is this when you're when the first thing that comes to your mind is, is, you know, I hate Republicans or I hate Democrats, if that's if that's constantly in your brain as a, as a part of what your reticular activating system is doing, you are going to seek out points of affirmation for that every single time those posts in your feed. Now, the algorithms have a lot to do with it as well, and they play on that. But the reality is, is even if the algorithms weren't there, as we're doom scrolling through social media, those things are going to stand out more in our brain because our brain is looking for confirmation that our brain is in the right space or the wrong space in this case.
[00:36:12:18] Corey Nathan: Yeah, that's right.
[00:36:13:16] Wilk Wilkinson: And it's horrible. But it does. And I don't care if you're a Republican. I don't care if you're a Democrat. I don't care if you're low IQ or high IQ. This happens to everybody within reason. Everybody's got a brain that that that works the way that it's supposed to. Right. So this happens. Yeah. And that's why Democrats who decide that that Republicans are evil incarnate, their brain is naturally going to pick up in there, whether they're reading the newspaper or whether they're watching the news or they're, you know, they are going to pick up on things and more readily remember things.
[00:36:54:10] Corey Nathan: So how do you disrupt that? How do you disrupt that whole pattern?
[00:36:58:20] Wilk Wilkinson: Well, the great thing about that is we can decide, we can decide where we want to be in our head space. And that's why I talk about those us versus them tribalism, you know, that us versus them, those glasses. Right? When we choose to say no, when we consciously decide that, no, the Democrats are not the biggest threat we face as a nation or we decide, no, the Republicans aren't the biggest threat to us as a nation. And we say both sides have issues. And all of a sudden we start to see that, you know what? Congress can't get a bill through, but it takes two to tango, right? So it's not just one side's fault, it's the whole institutions inability to work through the most basic of things together, you know? And now all of a sudden it's like, oh my gosh, things got a little bit clearer. Yeah. And now I look for something else and I'm like, oh, you know what? All I see is this group blaming this for that and this group's blaming this for that. But the reality is, is, you know what? They both had a hand in screwing this up.
[00:38:14:17] Corey Nathan: So so, you know.
[00:38:17:09] Wilk Wilkinson: And the reality things just start to become a lot more clear. And we get a bigger picture and a clearer picture. And then you say, you know what? I've been a conservative for 25 years, but I'm going to go have a conversation with a Democrat. Yeah. Or a liberal from, you know, as long as I can remember. But I'm going to see if I can have lunch with my neighbor who's a Republican and just see not just what he believes, but why he believes it. Oh, yeah. That.
[00:38:48:02] Corey Nathan: That, that that's that little pebble in a in a still pond. Right? It gives me hope for the work that you and I are both doing. Wilk, so part of part of the burden that a lot of folks feel if they do have, if they're mission oriented, is they feel like they have to enter into a conversation. And if they don't get 180 degree turn with that person, if they do enter into a conversation with somebody from the quote unquote other side, right, that the conversation is useless. But that's not it. That's not it all. I came to the conclusion that there's two parts of this. One is I'm not looking for a 180 degree turn. I'm just looking for one degree. Right. But in order for me to be able to do that one degree, the most effective way for me to be able to do that is if I am also persuasive. It's Moni's, you know, I never thought like, be practice being in that disposition.
[00:39:41:15] Wilk Wilkinson: Thought of it that way.
[00:39:42:19] Corey Nathan: To be able to arrive at that. I never thought of it that way moment, that intuit moment. Right. And it reminds me of. So I'm going to say something when I, when I, when I first met Miss Lisa, my wife, she, I met her in Alabama and I was writing a play about a southern salesman, a guy named Ken. And I was undercover because I wanted to I wanted to write about him as a character. So I was the cover I had was being his, his sales assistant, basically. And he introduces me. He says, son, I'm going to teach you all about the art of bartering. You just refer to me as the Great Kendini. And he got.
[00:40:20:05] Speaker 6: He was a he was a good he was such a great character. And he goes.
[00:40:23:07] Corey Nathan: He goes.
[00:40:24:16] Speaker 6: This is the first thing.
[00:40:25:07] Corey Nathan: He told me we went out to, like, I hung out with him that first day and we went out to play pool. And of course he was like he thought he was like. And he did he like one. Whatever. A lot of money back then. Whatever it was 20 bucks, 50 bucks. He ended up winning some money off me that night. But all he said, this is your tuition, son. And he goes, he goes. The first thing you gotta do. You want to learn about the art of bartering. You got to change your predilection. Frame a reference. But. But the great Kendini was right. All you got to do that one little thing, all you got to do is change a predilected frame of reference.
[00:41:00:08] Wilk Wilkinson: There you go, there you go. Yeah. And that that is absolutely right. I mean, your frame of reference, where you're coming at, where you're coming from and what you're what you're seeing. Because again, going back to that idea of, of our perception becomes our reality. And wherever we're sitting, our frame of reference on things. And I think this is this is the way I'm taking that is our frame of reference is something we can control. And if we don't go in with the right field of visibility, yeah, we're going to get the right. We're going to get the wrong message every single time.
[00:41:41:16] Corey Nathan: Amen, brother. Yeah, yeah.
[00:41:44:03] Wilk Wilkinson: Because it's fantastic conversation. We are we're a little bit over our time okay. All right. What this does is this this gives us an opportunity to have a lot more conversations.
[00:41:56:08] Corey Nathan: Oh, I got questions for you, man. So you're coming on to T, P and R we're going to have we're going to we're going to get into it. So I'm looking.
[00:42:02:12] Wilk Wilkinson: Forward to it. It definitely will. We definitely will. We've got we've got a lot of collaboration in our future brother. And and I look forward to it. But tell everybody tell the listeners where they can find more about you. And obviously it's you know, the talk and Politics and religion podcast is is one that one space. But I know there's there's other spaces that they can find you and obviously they'll find it in the show notes as well.
[00:42:29:17] Corey Nathan: I appreciate that. Yeah. The easiest way to find the podcast is, is politics and religion us or maybe, maybe you got to do the WW thing politics and but also if you go to Apple or Spotify and type in politics and religion, our big old purple logo comes up. But if you want to fight, you know, I was going to say, if you want to fight with me to say, fine, but fight came out, you got to fight with me. I'm on all the socialist I especially. I'm loving Substack and One of your Substack is is coming my way too. I'm all the socials are at Corey s Nathan I’m a Corey with an E then S is in Sam Nathan at Corey Nathan on all the socials, especially with Substack.
[00:43:09:03] Wilk Wilkinson: Very cool. We will have that in the show notes and people can find you all the great places throughout social media and and then talk, talk politics and religion will will definitely be another podcast they want to check out. Corey Nathan, I appreciate you buddy, and look forward to the next one.
[00:43:29:21] Corey Nathan: Wilk, this is so much fun man. I look forward to hanging out with you one more time. Let's do it again.
[00:43:36:03] Wilk Wilkinson: Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Rate The Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together. So please take a moment to visit Braver Angels and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divide. This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friend. I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
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