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Brian Vogt has a résumé most democracy reformers would envy: election observation with the Carter Center, senior roles at USAID and the National Security Council, a $424 million democratic renewal initiative. But when USAID was shut down and Brian turned his attention to democracy here at home, he didn’t write a white paper or launch a think tank. He hit the road.
The Democracy Listening Tour of Red America is exactly what it sounds like—a face-to-face listening initiative focused specifically on Trump voters and conservative communities that the democracy reform world has largely failed to engage. Brian’s thesis is straightforward: if you want reform that lasts, you need buy-in from all sides. And you can’t get buy-in from people you’ve never actually listened to.
Brian Vogt has spent more than 20 years strengthening democracy around the world — observing elections with the Carter Center in Indonesia, Ethiopia, and the Democratic Republic of Congo, leading programs at the National Democratic Institute, and serving at both USAID and the National Security Council. At USAID, he led the Presidential Initiative for Democratic Renewal, a $424 million portfolio focused on election integrity, media freedom, and democratic reform.
When USAID was shuttered, Brian brought those lessons home. He founded the Democracy Listening Tour of Red America — a qualitative research initiative built on a simple premise: if you want lasting reform, you have to start by listening to the people you've been missing.
Connect with Brian Vogt
🌐 democracylisteningtour.org
🔗 linkedin.com/in/brian-vogt-b5b5571
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[00:00:00:00] Wilk Wilkinson: What would it take for you to sit down with and listen to the people you disagree with the most? Not to debate them. Not to change their minds. Just to hear them out. My guest today has spent the last year doing exactly that, and what he found out might surprise you. Welcome back, my friend, to the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross partisan organization working toward civic renewal, this podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ. Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast, share it with a friend and visit Braver Angels to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partisan divide. Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it. Brian Volt has spent more than two decades putting in the work to strengthen democracy. Not here at home in the US, but in some of the most challenging political environments around the world. Countries where elections were fragile or media freedom was under threat, and were the building blocks of self-governance were themselves still being laid. He's observed elections with the Carter Center in Indonesia, Ethiopia and the Democratic Republic of Congo. He served at the National Security Council. He led a landmark $424 million initiative at USAID focused on election integrity and democratic renewal. Then USAID was shut down and Brian made a decision. He took everything he'd learned about democracy abroad and brought it home specifically to communities and voters, that the democracy reform world had largely been missing. Trump voters in Red America. He calls it the democracy listening to her. And it isn't about convincing anyone of anything. It's about hearing people out. Real listening. Brian is going to tell us what he's found and why listening might be the most politically courageous act of us can take right now. Let's get into it with my friend Brian Vogt. Here we go. Brian Vogt. Welcome to the podcast. It is good to see you again, my friend. How are you?
[00:03:37:21] Brian Vogt: I'm doing well. Good to see you. Also Wilk.
[00:03:39:19] Wilk Wilkinson: I'm glad to see you again and have you on the podcast this time. I know we've we've talked before, but anxious to bring your story to the Derate the Hate listeners, Brian, because what you're doing and I'm really excited to bring this to the listeners, what you're doing in terms of this, this listening tour, it's called the Democracy Listening Tour. But bringing that to the listeners, because if there's one thing I probably talk about more than more than anything, Brian, it's listening and listening with intention, trying to figure out not just what people believe, but why they believe it. And when you and I talked before, talked a little bit about your your Democracy listening tour, and we're going to get into that in just a minute. But but before we do, I'd like you to tell the listeners what what was it about this, this type of thing that, that, that got you started in this, this idea of, I've got to go out and find out what all these other people think. And, and then, you know, certainly in terms of, of building bridges and what that meant to you. So let's start there. Brian, what got you started on this particular journey?
[00:05:03:01] Brian Vogt: Sure. Well, I'm glad to be on here. Wilk and happy that. Really excited to talk to you about the project that I'm doing. A little background on myself is I have spent most of my professional career and that's over 20 years basically strengthening democracy around the world. And what that means is like doing election observation in countries where elections aren't, you know, well established or trying to promote a free and independent media in, in other countries, sort of the building blocks of democracy or training parliamentarians. And so that's the work I've done for most of my, my career. But I have felt, particularly in the past number of years, that, listen, our democracy here at home isn't doing so well. We have a lot of challenges ourselves. And so I decided that I was going to sort of see what I could do to sort of use those lessons I learned abroad to apply those here in the US. And one of the things I saw abroad was that if you really want to do democracy reform that lasts, you can't do it with one party. You have to have multiple parties, often opposing parties involved in that process. And, and I saw here in the US that, you know, sort of democracy was often failing because of the dramatic polarization we have in our country. So that led me. I had been working at USAID, which, as you probably know, a bit over a year ago, was closed down. And so for me, that was a kick in the pants, like, okay, you've been talking about doing this listening stuff. Why don't you just go out and do it? And so I took it upon myself last fall to basically go out and particularly meet with voters, conservative voters, and particularly Trump voters. And the reason I was focused on that particular group is because you have a lot of reform organizations out there, but in their nonpartisan or bipartisan, but they often are missing the voices of Trump voters. And so I felt that that was a voice that wasn't being heard in the democracy reform community. I thought that that was important to reach out to them. And so that's what I've been doing.
[00:07:35:11] Wilk Wilkinson: Nice, nice. And thank you for that. First of all, as somebody who, you know, I've, I've been a conservative, you know, voted Republican for more than 25 years since I gained any kind of political awareness at this point. Brian. And you're absolutely right. I mean, but there's a couple things we need to unpack in in what you're saying. And I think it's very important that we do so because and I'll explain why. One of the things that you said, right in, your description of how you, how you've come to this and the way it lands for for many I know because I've had these conversations, the, the democracy reform thing, just the phraseology, the wording in it gets people a little freaked out, right? Yeah, it absolutely does. And then and then when we think about the people on the kind of the conservative side that just the word democracy itself gets people a little triggered, a little freaked out.
[00:08:39:00] Brian Vogt: It does.
[00:08:39:15] Wilk Wilkinson: Even though I know a lot of conservatives don't even like to think that they get triggered, let's be honest, they do. But but one thing that you say there that I really, really like, and then I want to impact like the unpack the the pieces of it is you say democracy reform requires, multiple parties or in this, you know, in our case, you know, the bipartisanship because there's really the two major parties. But long term democracy reform requires it really requires the buy in from all parties involved, not just one side. Because I think what we've seen over the past several years, Brian, and you can tell me what you think of this, but when a when a governing body, whoever the power or the party in power is, when that governing body decides to govern in a way that's very dismissive of the other side, you don't get lasting change. So that's part one. But part two is, is the description of democracy itself. And and before we can I think before we can really talk about this for the listeners and especially the conservatives listening, I want to make sure that we're clear on what we mean by democracy, because this is where this is, where, frankly, the conversation breaks down for far too many people, especially my my friends on the right is they hear the word democracy in their ear slam shut because they instantly think, oh, we're not a democracy, we're a republic. And I agree with that to some extent. I mean it well, not to some extent. I do agree with that. Absolutely. But it depends on what you're saying in terms of democracy. So I would say, you know, we're thinking of democracy as the people have the power. But Republic, as in we are a representative republic governed through the protections of a United States Constitution. Tell me what you mean when you say democracy reform, Brian.
[00:10:59:04] Brian Vogt: Got it. Good question. And you're you're very right in the sense that even the term democracy has become politicized. And that was particularly in the 2024 election you had in you had Harris in particular, who was claiming, you know, that this election is about democracy. And so it's not surprising that this the idea of democracy is now has been politicized. And you're exactly right that, you know, we don't live in a pure democracy. We live in a constitutional republic, a, you know, and and so I use the term democracy as a shorthand. And the first question that I ask any of my interviewees is, what does this mean to you? And the description that you said is often the type of thing that I hear back from people, which is, you know, the people have the power to choose leaders and, and to get rid of those leaders when they they don't like them. And so I think that, you know, those sort of core tenets are something that are as well understood by the people that that I'm speaking with. But I'm very careful not to sort of say, here's what I think democracy is, because I think it's different for every person. And a lot of what I want to hear from people is exactly what it means to them. But your observations are spot on in terms of the sort of things that I've I've heard from people. But when also you asked about the term democracy reform, and that can mean lots of different things. You know, for some people it's about getting corruption out of out of government or money in politics or gerrymandering or For some people, it's about reducing polarization. For some people, it's about engagement in sort of in our communities. So it could be sort of a wide variety of types of things. What what sort of reform of the system could be.
[00:13:08:02] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, yeah. And I think that's good. One of the things and I bring, I'm going to bring up something that's slightly uncomfortable just so I can get your, your view on it, because something that happened recently and, and it was brought to my attention because I, I hadn't even really had something on this like this on my radar. But those of us that work in the, you know, depolarization space, let's say the bridge building space there, it's come to our attention in recent weeks that that there's actually a a movement out there that's, that's putting forth a concerted effort to kind of take down the bridge building democracy, building depolarization space because of, you know, phraseology like democracy reform, because they get they do get so triggered by that. And they, they apply their own definition to it. And, and that's that's actually why I asked you about that question. And I'm glad you said it the way that you did, Brian, is it can mean many things to many different people. But this, I think, is where the importance of the listening tour comes in. But but knowing now what I didn't know, you know, a number of weeks ago, was that there's this concerted effort on the part of many to kind of take down these depolarization organizations. And this the the depolarization movement broadly. I think that's very bothersome because, again, when I think of democracy reform and when I think about the work that I do, it's largely about it's largely about the idea of exactly what you said. Democracy reform requires multiple parties. It requires all voices to come to the table and figure out ways that they can both strongly hold to their own convictions, but then figure out ways to work across lines, not to not to come to some kind of squishy middle, middle ground, but to find common ground where they can find it, find true definitions to what each side is saying, and come to a common agreement about what each side is saying, and then work through our differences in some meaningful way. That's what I see democracy reform as being. Not that we want to fundamentally transform what the United States of America is. As one president once said, because I don't want to fundamentally transform what the United States is. We survived 250 years because, in my opinion, we are the greatest nation that's ever been devised. I want to get into what, number one, you think about this whole thing. And had you heard of this thing in your listening tour about this effort to kind of take down these depolarization organizations, some call them democracy building organizations, but then. what you were learning by. And I think we said it already or you said it already, you were focusing on actually listening to Trump voters, people on, let's say, the red side of the political spectrum. Yeah. In terms of American politics. Yep. So let's unpack. All that a little bit, Brian.
[00:16:51:09] Brian Vogt: Sure. Yeah. I mean, so I haven't heard about the sort of effort to sort of counter the depolarization of space, but it doesn't surprise me. And the reason I say that is like there's a lot of money and benefit from polarization. There are a lot of people out there that really benefit from that. So it doesn't surprise me at all. Right. You know, as they say about local media, if it bleeds, it leads. If there's conflict out there, someone is benefiting from that. That's right. And and so when you threaten those benefits. Yeah. It's not surprising to me that that though some people would would be pushing back against it, you know. But that doesn't. What that shows me is that it's actually working and people are feeling threatened. And so so that could be a good sign, you know. So so that's, you know, just just one response to that. You know, I think fear fear sells, division sells. And you see it in our entertainment and, and so forth. So it doesn't surprise me at all. But that to me is just more, more reason to do the sort of listening that that is the sort of thing that I'm trying to do because, you know, in the sort of, if you will, in the democracy reform community, there often is the inclination to say, here's the best way to do things right. Right here, you know, we should have a system, that's why. And Z it should be proportional representation or, you know, this is the best way, right? And in my mind and what I've, what I've have work I've done around the world, the first step if you really want to to enact change is the first step, is really listening to the people that you're trying to engage with. And so that's why when I'm going into interviews with people, I don't say, you know, but here's the way we should be doing things. It is. And I may personally disagree with somebody, but it's not my place to sort of say you're wrong. You know, that's not right. It's my role is one to sort of try to dive into people's motivations, what their what their opinions are and why they think that and and that, I think, can help inform those who, you know, want to have a and I think, you know, a more democratic system and, and the people I speak with but really most of them I all of them I'd say really do believe in democracy, you know, you know, in broader sense, you know, not the hyper, you know, politicized version of it, but the idea that we all need to have a say in our future. And so I feel kind of come away from all of my conversations really energized. That's the sort of conversations I have people.
[00:20:04:12] Wilk Wilkinson: That is fantastic. And here's here's the one thing that I really like most, Brian, about, about the idea of of listening and focusing on the listening. And, you know, at Braver Angels, one of one of the big things that we're talking about most nowadays is courageous citizenship. It really is the next chapter in what Braver Angels is doing. And one of the things that I've been saying for a very long time is it takes a lot of courage to listen to people, especially to people that that we are fairly sure we're going to disagree with. Right? I mean, listening with intention to people that we know disagree with us mostly on policy, but maybe even sometimes on certain values. Right. Still being able to listen with intention to those people, that takes courage. It takes courage because we, we, we often feel threatened by other people's points of view or I think a lot. Well, and then, let's face it, there's a certain amount of reality as well to people who are who do feel a bit insecure about their own position on things. And, and when they listen to things that counter what they believe that they aren't so sure about their, I think they're afraid that they will somehow be persuaded into. changing their mind. And one of the things that I say that I think really aligns with what you're saying, Brian, is and I think it's hugely important. But one of the things that I often say is. That I'm not here to change. Anybody's mind on a particular thing, but I'm here to open their mind to the idea that what they're certain about may not be so, you know, and it it's fine if they stay certain and stay right where they at on their, they're at on their position. But if I can at least open their mind a little bit to the idea that it isn't perfectly within their certainty that they're going to find all the right answers. I mean, we don't we don't learn. Or at least my experience tells me that I haven't ever learned a whole lot inside my comfort zone. Yeah, especially when it comes to, to to things as, as important as, as, like policy when it comes to whether it be domestic policy or foreign policy. I don't know much about foreign policy at all. I'll be honest, Brian, and I know that's one of your specialties. But when we think about what's happening here in the United States, I usually think about things largely in terms of how we relate to other people. Right. Because I talk about, you know, I take everything back to the this the one of the biggest problems that we face in this country. In fact, I, I just I firmly believe that it's our only true existential threat as a body of we the people. Is this us versus them tribalism. Yeah. And and the toxic polarization, as my friend John Wood Jr often says, toxic polarization is the one problem that ensures all other problems don't get solved. So when we aren't listening to the other side and and whether you're on the right or on the left or somewhere in the middle, if we refuse to listen to that other side, we just don't know enough about them. But then there's that other thing, and there's there's something here. And because there are people out there, Brian, that that might look at your democracy listening tour and say, oh, well, this guy, you know, USAID, maybe he's got a bone to pick. Whatever. Maybe he's just doing this as some kind of strategy to to get in there. And this is a political strategy. He doesn't really care. He just wants to know about the right, you know, and the conservative Trump voters and and things like that. I don't like that mindset. I think it's I think it's it's wrongheaded in many ways. But what do you say to that? Because there's like I said, there's this there's this body out there right now that is is trying to twist all these things into kind of a conspiratorial thing. But the reality is, and me, from a conservative point of view, I know that I am a much better human being for having spent as much time as I do, listening to those on the left, whom with whom I disagree on almost everything politically.
[00:24:49:21] Brian Vogt: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I totally get the suspicion, right? Because it, it I am not on the, you know, like my political background is not from the right, you know. And so I wouldn't be surprised. I'm not surprised that people are suspicious of what is this guy coming and asking me about democracy, what's his ulterior motive. And all I can say is, like, I'm being as honest with people as I can, that I really do want to want to hear their stories. And I think generally through our conversation, I've won over most people pretty well in the sense of like, yeah, they get a sense. Here's a guy who really is interested in what I have to say, and I've learned a lot from these conversations and really, what I'm after, our stories like people's personal experiences. And I'll tell you, one of them that was really sort of eye opening for me because I, you know, I said. One of the first questions I asked people is, what is what is democracy mean for you? And I was meeting a guy in Kentucky, and I asked him that question. This guy is an Iraq war veteran and very community minded and very engaged in his VFW The guy would actually go out on the street and find homeless veterans and would would try to get them back up on their feet. So someone who really had was, was community minded, but also a strong Trump supporter, lifelong Republican. And I asked him, what is democracy mean to you? And he said, you know, democracy to me means equality, that we all sort of have an equal shot. We all are treated equally, our votes are all equal. And and so it's about equality in that sense. And he described how he was one of the few Latino families in the town where we were in when he was growing up. He was like probably two Latino families in the town. And so he felt like he was sort of like in other, you know, not well, you know, sort of not not the normal sort of folks in that town. And I got a sense from, you didn't say this, but I got a sense from him that he thought of himself as someone who wasn't going to treat people that same way as he felt when he was a kid. And he said, I said democracy. He said, democracy is about equality. But let me tell you, one at one time when I didn't feel that I was being treated equally, he recounted how he was a manager at a call center, and there was one of his employees in African-American woman who, who was allocated time off that she hadn't really accrued because of some administrative error. And it was up to him as her manager to break the news to her that that she didn't have this time off when she wanted to take vacation. So he brought her into his office. He said that and she was livid. And then she raised a complaint against him. She storms out of the room, raises a complaint against him to the leadership of the company, saying, you know, this guy was calling me the N-word and he was making fun of my children for their race. And he was put on while they did this investigation. He was sort of put on leave, and eventually he was fired. Now they ultimately found out or the ultimately ultimately concluded that the the allegations were false. Right. But still, for whatever reason, he left the company and he said to me, you know, I don't feel equal in this sort of environment. I feel that like race and identity are being weaponized against me. And I feel and that's a sense I get from, you know, a number of people I talked to that there's this sense of equality right out there that we all aspire to, but because of identity politics and weaponization of race and so forth. There's a sense that we're not actually equal. And that, for me, was really a powerful story about what democracy meant to him. So that's just one example of the types of types of things I'm trying to to get out from people.
[00:29:41:00] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. Well, in a story like that, Brian, I think, I mean, and this is again, one of the, one of the great things about doing this work and, and really promoting the idea of listening with intention, not just to what people believe, but why they believe it. Right? Because it's stories like those, right? I mean. That that is a I mean, that is a wound of his that will will take some serious healing. Right? And to experience something like that and to be falsely accused of something, especially in today's day and age, something like that in, in, in, you know, with respect to race and, and race relations and, and race in the workplace and things like that. I mean, these are the types of things that leave lasting wounds and, and really change the relationship a person has to another group of people.
[00:30:38:05] Brian Vogt: Yeah.
[00:30:38:10] Wilk Wilkinson: So, so to, to really suss out those stories and get that idea from a person as to why do you believe a certain thing or why is this the most important thing to you or, or, you know, in terms of this particular policy, what is it that makes you believe whatever you believe on that particular issue? Right. So these are the things that I think it's so important for people to to dive into with people across differences and to have those conversations. So we gain that better understanding. Right? I mean, that story is not going to probably change a particular person. Like if there was a a person who was an ardent liberal Democrat and they have that conversation with that particular man, maybe they don't change their mind on their position on whatever they're talking about, but it does give them better insight into why he believes what he believes on that particular thing. And that's where our humanity comes into this. Brian is really getting to understand what are our fellow human beings experiencing, or what has their experience been that leads them to believe what they believe about a particular thing? It's so hugely important, and our time is wrapping up here. And I want to, I want to I want to get to real quick as we round out our time. Brian, what are people going to find at the Democracy Listening tour? How can they find out more about you and the work that you're doing? Because I think this this work is hugely important. And more than anything, just anybody who's promoting the idea of going and listening to people across the aisle, listening to people who who we may not agree with, I think is hugely important. But what are the people going to find at democracylisteningtour.org.
[00:32:31:08] Brian Vogt: Sure. Well, first caveat is it's a pretty elementary website, but what it is, is it's a little description of the project and also an opportunity for people to reach out to me or sign up and say, hey, I'm interested in being interviewed. My, my. Whenever possible, I try to do these interviews in person because I think that really matters in terms of the sort of like back and forth in the discussion. But I know that's sometimes not always possible. And so if I can find somebody, you know, who's really interested in talking and, and wants to do that remotely, I can do that also. And so that's an it's an opportunity on, on the website to, you know, to get in touch with me and say, hey, I'm interested in talking with you. And, and when I find those people I'm very interested in talking with when talking with them. And we can set something up.
[00:33:26:16] Wilk Wilkinson: That is fantastic. That is fantastic. And I'm just going to assume or hope that I'm right here and that that would be a reciprocal conversation too, right? I mean, if they had questions about you and your history and your background.
[00:33:40:21] Brian Vogt: I'm very open and and I try to be as forthcoming as possible. So and I think when I, when I talk with people, they are impressed with my story.
[00:33:53:17] Wilk Wilkinson: And that's great.
[00:33:55:06] Brian Vogt: And so that's why I tried to do that.
[00:33:57:20] Wilk Wilkinson: That is so great. Well Brian. Brian Vogt, I do appreciate your time here on the podcast today. This has been fantastic. And and I encourage people to check out the work that you're doing. Learn more about you at democracylisteningtour.org. I know they can find you on LinkedIn and and other places as well. We'll make sure that's in the show notes. I appreciate your time today and this has been fantastic. And keep up the great work, my friend.
[00:34:21:03] Brian Vogt: Great. Good talking with you, Wilk.
[00:34:22:23] Wilk Wilkinson: Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate The Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together. So please take a moment to visit Braver Angels and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divide. This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friend. I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
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