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Elizaveta Friesem has built her work around a personal preoccupation with human suffering — and a conviction that most of it comes from people hurting each other and disconnecting from one another. Her book, Media Is Us: Understanding Communication and Moving Beyond Blame, argues that media isn't some external entity manipulating people. It's a form of human communication, governed by the same limitations and flaws that shape every other kind of human interaction.
In this conversation, she and Wilk work through how blame actually functions, why power isn't the simple binary we treat it as, and what it takes to hold people accountable without dehumanizing them in the process.
Elizaveta Friesem is an independent interdisciplinary scholar and writer focused on conflict, polarization, empathy, compassion, and human meaning-making. She's the author of Media Is Us: Understanding Communication and Moving Beyond Blame (2021), and her ongoing work lives across two projects: Me, Looking for Meaning and POWER of meanings // MEANINGS of power.
Website: elizavetafriesem.com
Additional project site: meaningsofpower.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/elizaveta-friesem
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[00:00:00:00] Wilk Wilkinson: Elizaveta Friesem has spent years studying human suffering, and she's landed on something that cuts against almost everything we're told about our problems today. It's not them. It's not some media machine pulling strings. It's us. All of us caught in patterns we didn't choose and don't fully understand. Today we get into why blame feels so good and does so little, and why nobody is ever completely powerless or completely powerful. Stick with me. Welcome back, my friend, to the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross partisan organization working toward civic renewal, this podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ. Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the Hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast, share it with a friend and visit Braver Angels to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partisan divide. Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it. Elizaveta Friesem writes and studies conflict, polarization and empathy. And her book, Media Is Us starts from an idea that quietly reframes a lot of what we argue about. We talk about the media like it's some outside force doing things to us, manipulating us. Running a psyop. Driving wedges between us. Elizaveta’s argument is that media is just another form of human communication, shaped by the same flaws and limits we all carry. It's not them, it's us. From there, we get into some of the sharpest ideas I've come across on this show how blame quietly assumes things are about other people's power and motives that we usually can't prove. The difference between micro power and macro power, and why she says nobody is ever completely powerless or completely powerful. We close out with a simple framework she calls ace awareness, compassion, empathy. If you've ever felt stuck in an us versus them, stand off. This conversation gives you a real way to think about your way out of it. Let's get to it with my friend Elizaveta Friesem. Here we go. Elizaveta welcome to the Derate the Hate podcast. It is so good to see you again today.
[00:03:43:17] Elizaveta Friesem: Thank you so much for inviting me.
[00:03:45:15] Wilk Wilkinson: Yes, I'm I'm glad to have you here. I've been looking over the stuff that that you do and in terms of, of your writing and just the amazing thought leadership that and I would describe this as thought leadership because there's a number of different things that I'm excited to bring from your work to the Derate the hate listeners. Elizaveta. And it is it is stuff that aligns very well with with my work in the bridge building space. But there are many things in here that that, you know, take takes those things to a different level. So, so let's, let's get into those. And first, before we get started, I would like you to tell the listeners what really sparked your interest in, bridge building work. But more than the bridge building work, like the psychological part of how we relate to other people, people that are different than us, people that. And one of the things that we're going to get into a little bit deeper is, is, you know, that that oppressed versus oppressor mindset and, and power struggles in terms of that. But what was what was it that initially got you interested in working on that?
[00:05:12:19] Elizaveta Friesem: Just to clarify, I am originally from Russia. I came here when I was already 27 years old to continue my education. I have a doctorate degree from Russia and a doctorate degree from the United States. And in when I was in Russia, I was studying a lot of different things, using lenses of social sciences and humanities. And I have really interdisciplinary foundation that allows me to draw on a variety of ideas in my work. So but to a question how I got interested in what I'm what I'm doing right now is initially, I think it was just a personal preoccupation. I think looking back at my life, I think that I've always been, troubled by human suffering. And I felt that a lot of human suffering comes from people hurting each other and from disconnection. And it was just a personal thing that I noticed in myself, kind of thinking about that. And as I was doing my studies in Russia, I started off formally again in my own head, exploring different ideas of explanations why that happens. Then I felt like I always was trying to find something about like, I felt like people can be connected, but they're disconnected. And that really that has always troubled me. My journey, how I ended up being here. But when I came here, my doctoral program in Philadelphia was in media and communication, which allowed me sort of to drill deeper into like topics about the human connection, disconnection, understanding, misunderstanding in in the more specific modern context. And then also when I arrived to the United States, you know, I find myself in a different cultural environment that I started seeing some interesting things going on around culturally, politically, and I was trying to make sense of it. And after I came to that states, I realized that the theme of empathy, the term empathy, is important for me, and I try to figure out how it fits in my scholarship and that just gradually, you know, I came to the realization that I really want to start those things and all those things and not just, you know, think about them in my head. So and then, then I wrote a book. I published a book that was five years ago, and I was working on it for five years. I had been working on it for five years before I published it. And that book that is the title is Media Is Us and the Standing Communication and Moving Beyond Blame. You can see that is that when I really, for the first time I was formed, I started working on this topic of connection and disconnection in relationship to the modern media communication.
[00:08:33:20] Wilk Wilkinson: so let's, let's talk about that, that book then a little bit deeper. I want to get into that a little bit more because, because this is, this is one of those things where a lot of people right now, Eliza, they, they look at the media as, as being this, this thing, this other thing and, and, and this, this entity. And I'm not even saying that it's just other people, because I've actually found myself in this same mindset that that the media is out there. It's this thing that's doing something to us. But, but the title of your book and then and then looking at that a little bit deeper, you know, the title is The Media Is Us. So, so in essence, you're saying that it's not just this thing out there that's doing something to us, but the media is us. So dive into that a little bit for me, would you? Because this is one of those things where and in the culture that we live in right now, and it's it's a very ugly mindset in my opinion. But so many people are calling all these, calling these things like, this is a size or that's a psyop. And these people are doing this to me. we can't get ahead because this is happening kind of that again, that oppressed versus oppressor mindset. But the media is us dive into that a bit.
[00:10:03:20] Elizaveta Friesem: Well, first of all, I need to explain how I came up with the idea to write this book. So I was I finished my program in media and communication, and in that program, I learned a lot about Clarence Scholarship that explores media, media representations and talks often about problems associated when. That scholarship was really interesting for me, I thought it was really important. My dissertation was actually about media representations of gender and teaching in high school, like how how teachers were talking to students about meeting stations of gentlemen. I found this pretty fascinating. But at this time I felt there was something like a nagging feeling. And that was coming from that personal aspect of my exploration of my path, you know, to explore, to understand human beings and society is I felt like in a lot of scholarship about media, there's this undercurrent or background or like a flavor of blame going on, that the it's often described, the situation is often described as, you know, like media producers are manipulating because they want profit, or certain social groups take advantage of other social groups because, you know, they want to keep the status quo, So I felt like I was not satisfied with those explanations and discussions, and I felt something was missing. And I realized also that all the books and articles I was reading about the media, and they didn't necessarily define media clearly. It was often just a list of stuff like what is media books? It's websites. It's it's in this. Video games. But I felt like something was missing. So I felt like I wanted to think about like, why? And you you said it very well. Like, why do we feel that media is something outside of us? Right. then I thought, well, why, why is it that is just, is just one of the forms we communicate, and it's governed by the same principles that have governed human communication from the moment that beings, you know, human beings and in this sense, it's not just somebody out there doing bad things to us. It's just something that we are all kind of caught up in, in one way or another, because we're human beings and we have limitations. We have flaws. and I feel like it's not enough to talk about social problems, problems with media in this, kind of framing them through blame, even if it's not was not directly said. Like, I blame this part, this, this group or that person. It's felt like the that's what I kept that feeling. Right. And that's that's what I felt like. I want to write about how it's more complicated, that it's not just somebody else, and it's not just about media, but in general any social problem. Right? Like why society? Flawed. Why do people suffer. And that's not because there's somebody consistently like, and you can name that person or that social group who creates the suffering. It's because there's something about our human nature that we are stuck, you know, and you can look at the spiritual traditions like Buddhism, you know, in the cycle of.
[00:14:01:11] Wilk Wilkinson: So let's let's talk about that a little bit more then because I want and there was a couple things that you or a thing that you brought up there a few different times that, that I think needs more, more discussion because I think this is a, this goes to a big part of the problem that we see today. Like I said, I keep on hearing people saying, oh, this is a just a sci op. And, you know, these people are trying to do this to us. And, you know, it's that constant blame game, right? Yeah. The the blame, the manipulation or the, the thoughts that, that were being manipulated by a particular thing. And I want to get into that because there's something there like that that I think needs to be kind of sussed out a bit more because there's a way to talk about it. And what I don't want to do is I don't want to kind of minimize what people are feeling when they, you know, kind of feel this. But there's definitely something there that. That we need to that we need to think about in terms of how do we reclaim our agency as individuals without completely minimizing what is actually happening or what people feel is happening? How do they get that that power back? Because there's I mean, there's something there. And I'm trying to think that. I'm trying to think about this, but but anyways, talk about that for me a little bit because, I mean, we as individuals need to have the agency to say, I am not going to allow this thing to happen. I'm not going to blame other people from my problems. I mean, that is actually a big part of what I talk about on this podcast is our personal accountability, our personal responsibility to say, look, there's all these different things in the world that are happening around me that are outside of my control. It's how I choose to react to them that's going to make the difference. The media and I do understand what you're saying. The media is just another, you know, a medium for communications that, you know, that we have had. And the media is a reflection of us. A lot of people say that about politics. To write that, that our politics is us. It's not it's not them. So much is is it's a reflection of who we are. And I think the media to a large degree is the same thing. So how do we how do we take those two different things and say, I'm going to reclaim my agency, or we want you as individuals to reclaim your agency, but we don't want to minimize what you're feeling in terms of that, that manipulation that you feel that you are, you know, you are are being manipulated by some great media structure that that is just, you know, trying to drive us all crazy or try to drive a wedge in between all of us.
[00:17:21:18] Elizaveta Friesem: Yeah. All right. Well, I really appreciate that you bring this angle the that because that's the angle of empathy and compassion. Right. So we do want to complicate the conversation, but we don't want it to do it at the expense of saying to some people who are feeling angry or worried or upset, like, don't feel this way or you're feeling are not important. And also we want to say, well, if you are saying that you are, you know, suffering, that you are you experiencing discomforts or disadvantages in some one way or another, like you're like making it? We don't. So this is something that I've been working a lot and thinking a lot about. how to find this balance, to be able to discuss society's problems, because there are certainly many. Right. And discuss the fact that, yes, some people in certain situations benefit while others are at a disadvantage. You know, there are some sometimes somebody, some people certainly twist the facts, prefects in order to achieve something. Right? So some people harm others. And that happens that, you know, we don't want to deny that. Like, how do we talk about this when without minimizing feelings of people feel like they've been hurt, but at the same time, we do it without blaming and without and through the through complexity. Right. And and that's. That's freaky. And I cannot say that I have like a simple formula for, for you that because this is, this is part of my work. Like how to, how to formulate it, how to articulate it, how to talk about it. And that's why. So after writing that book, I felt like there's so many things that were left outside, like of the of my that I didn't get to explore. And I started thinking about writing some other books, but I felt like whatever topic I choose, still a lot gets left outside. So I realized that I don't want to do that. I don't want to go to this more traditional route. I'm going to. I do something that I call, and I mean, I didn't come with this up with this name I protect from reject. So I started one on my personal website and like a very broad sort of like a intellectual exploration project that I named me looking for meaning. And then and then a little more like, literally same like a few months later, I realized that I really want to drill deeper into the concept of power that I started working on in that book. And then I created a second project that I called Power of Meanings, Meanings of Power. And I have a special a separate website for that. And then and I right there, I write that phase and then I like build connections between them. For example, I think of something think like for example, agency responsibility. These are very important points of something that I have been thinking a lot about. So I might think about like, okay, how do we explain? How do I explain? Like what are the what are our limits of our agency and what are the possibilities of our agency? Because I think this is an important topic. And when blames, when we blame, we essentially make assumptions about other people's agency. We say, well, you could do differently or you can do differently, but you're choosing to do the way you're doing things and and you're using your agency for. Right. And I realize that it's a very tricky balance here because we I think it's important to acknowledge how many constraints we experience as individuals. Right. But at the same time, notice our agency, that's what you talked about that and discuss and acknowledge that we have some regency, even in situations when we are indeed hurt or mistreated. There's always a gleam, at least a glimpse of agency out there.
[00:22:03:12] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. So okay. Yeah, there's a couple of things there that that have my wheels just, just just spinning and there's a, there's a bigger thing here that I want to get to in a minute. But you said and I think this is hugely important. So I don't want it to go missed is is blame is making assumptions about other people's agency or how much control they actually have. And I think that's hugely important and I might phrase it just a bit different. But but when I think about that and I think that's awesome, is when we blame somebody else for a problem, we're automatically assuming that they had the power they had some kind of control over. And no doubt there are times when that is true. You know that people do. But I think going back to another thing that you were talking about and you talk about quite often, Eliza Vita is is empathy and compassion. And a lot of times when we blame somebody else for something that has happened in order for us to actually make that blame land on that person, we have to assume that that they have no compassion. We have to assume and ascribe motives to that person that they may have never had. And a lot of times we do that without proof. And it's I think it's unfair in that, in that struggle, you know, when we're looking for a way to explain something, you know, that that age old question. Right? Well, how do why do bad things happen to good people? You know, what is the concept? what is the the genesis of human suffering, all these different things. Well, a lot of times we're looking for somebody to blame. But when we look for somebody to blame and we start pointing fingers, we have to assume that that person had had some kind of bad motives, or that they even had the power to do that thing in the first place. Or a lot of times we have to grant that person power in our mind that that person never had. I think that's huge. Which kind of leads me to what I want to talk about now, because it's another thing that you talk about is, is, you know, this this power struggle and power is not like this rigid binary thing. There's micro power. There's macro power. You know, when you talk about Mike, well, I want you to talk about it because I, I think the listeners need to really understand what micro power and macro power are, because I think it again, it ties to the agency, it ties to the empathy. It really has a lot to do with the blaming thing. Talk about micro and macro power Elizaveta.
[00:24:56:06] Elizaveta Friesem: Sure. So I as I was writing that book, media is us understanding communication and moving beyond blame. That's when I realized that I really need to talk about power. That's because, like you said, when we blame somebody, we make assumptions about what power they have or even over the situation. And and then I started thinking, well, how do I explain this? And because when we, when I, when we look at a specific relationship at a specific moment of time, we often can see something that we would call power in this relationship. So for example, a parent and a child. So parent says, well you need to read just you need to eat, you know, stuff like that. And the child might need to comply. Because in this particular relationship with. Listen to me. This is where power is directed. And that's what I call my popper. Because basically what I'm saying that not denying that power relationships and power inequalities exist, but we can see them more clearly or most, most with most clarity. When we look at the specific, very specific relationship with specific event situation, almost like a snapshot, right? Because why am I calling it like specific snapshot in time? Because if you take, for example, the same parent and child and look at the situation, many, you know, a few years later, the child is a teenager is not listening to or the child is grown up in, the parent is old in a wheelchair, you know, power relationship changes in many different ways. So that's so there's difference over time. But also what what is different. What is important to consider is what happens when we started zooming out of this micro relationship in this specific moment, in starting, noticing, starting, including other relationship. Because, for example, the parent is is not absolutely powerful, right? In any sort of sense. Right. Parent is, you know, for example, has a grade and then a job, there is a boss, you know, and then the parent is embedded in a community that runs by certain rules in a country, you know, different systems and so on. The more you do that and the people you include, that becomes to say with absolute certainty that this person, that group of people have like not one in this situation, it's just becomes really complicated. And that's what what I call Macropower is like this plane of social reality where everybody is in some way or another to everybody else, and you can even look at it over space and over time. And if we look at social reality and the situation at the social. reality in this take this very, very broad perspective, then we can see that power and powerlessness in every person are intertwined in some way or other. And that's what I this idea I worked on later in that project. Power of meanings, meanings of power, the idea that power and powerlessness are intertwined, and that nobody is absolutely powerless or absolutely powerful. Even when specific situations. In specific relationships, we can say, oh, this person is powerful, or this person is. So that's kind of trying to combine these two contradictory ideas, like the chapter where I initially introduced this idea, I called it Paradoxes of Time. Right. Because it's paradoxical, because because we don't need to say, you know, we look at some somebody like who has a lot of power to, you know, like make decisions that affect other people and say like kind of deny that, right? We don't want to say that that they don't have that now. But also if we look at this in a take this really broad perspective, we start saying that they also there there's a degree of this even in such a person.
[00:29:21:10] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. I think that's a fascinating idea that that you know, nobody is is is all powerful and nobody is completely powerless. And there's a paradox of power. I like the way that that sounds. You know, we've talked about a lot of things here already. And, you know, going back to many of the things that I've talked about over the course of my, my time doing this work, Elizaveta, the importance of agency and understanding our agency and, and empathy and finding ways to work through the things that we, you know, where we feel we've we've been done wrong by somebody or some situation. But working through that without just immediately going to blame somebody else. And there's one that, I mean, as we round out our time here, there's one thing I want to talk about real quick is, solutions based, problem solving is, what I really, love to do. And, and one of the things that I always want to, you know, try and bring to the listeners if I can and was it I don't know. Is it in media is us that where you've talked about or it might be on the the meanings of power was there's an ace ace model. Is that right.
[00:30:45:00] Elizaveta Friesem: Yeah. Yeah. That was that was the part of the media that's in that book. I talked about that model.
[00:30:51:22] Wilk Wilkinson: Okay. So let's talk about that as we round out our last little bit of time here. I think there's already plenty for the listeners to take away and in terms of how to think about things, but but just that, whether it be the Ace model or that one last thing that you want listeners to take away from this or this, this conversation. And then we'll obviously give out the websites again, you know, the meanings of power. Com and let us be at the freedom. But but talk about that for me.
[00:31:21:00] Elizaveta Friesem: All right. So ace. Well eight in this in this abbreviation stands for awareness C stands for collaboration and instance for empathy. if you go if you go to my official website, you do the phrasing on top of it. It says that my guiding vision is to to help people move. Like you. Warehouse about social problems. To like make society a better place through through empathy or. To kill. Berate on, on on overcoming this problem through empathy and compassion. I don't remember exactly exactly what it says, but this idea, this this idea is are crucial for me. Like those tools, the awareness, empathy, compassion and collaboration. Because because of all, I think it's important to be aware that site has problems. And I don't want to deny that. I don't want to say to argue. If somebody says, well, that's problems, I'd say, yes, these are problems and we want to work on that. But then the question is, how do we work on it? Do you think that we should work on them together? Right. And that's where the importance of overcoming the divide is. So because I think everybody anybody's perspective is limited, right. Whoever thinks that they know everything. About a problem, like they don't know everything, right? It's you can always learn and you can always incorporate more complexity. And learning comes from hearing other people's stories and other people's perspectives, and that we can do only when we use empathy and compassion, which are closely related terms. The well is basically ability to sort of feel the the way the other person is feeling or understand the world. The way they see the compassion is more about seeing other people as human beings that even when we disagree with them, even if they cause some and suffering. So. So I think that this is what I've been working with like the last few years, is, is how do we find a balance between talking about problems, keeping in mind the different problems, not ignoring that, but doing it in a way that would allow us to work together and and find solutions together. And, and that's why what I'm doing, the work that I'm doing, because I think, you know, I, I do believe in this in those things. I do believe in the importance of compassion and connection, sort of intuitively. But I think there is a scientific explanation to why those things are actually is a rational response and the rational cause of action. And that's what I'm working on. I'm bringing a variety of disciplines and theories, and it's an ongoing project. It's really it's growing in all different directions. And I'm trying to explain this like it does make a lot of sense and a lot of different disciplines. A lot of scholars talk about that without necessarily using words like polarization of power. But there's a lot of this is how society is complicated. And we are kind of caught like a lot. We are all caught in different. Patterns and meanings that we didn't choose and we didn't create, and we don't know how they work. There are a lot of constraints that everybody experiences in and, and we know that was also acknowledging problems and, and listening to each other. So that's what I've been working on.
[00:35:26:06] Wilk Wilkinson: No. And that's fantastic. That's fantastic. I mean there's there's so much to take away here that that people can think about. But but yeah, the reality is is, is or what I'm taking away Elizaveta is the, the you know, power is not just this binary thing. It's this, this. You know, I love that the paradox of power and nobody's completely powerless and nobody's all powerful and and, you know, through compassion and and connection and collaboration, none of us can do this alone. And, and we have to realize that, that there's a there's a whole lot of us out here that, you know, we're not going to agree on everything. But as long as we see each other as our fellow human beings and try to work through our differences in in some meaningful way, and don't pretend that everything has to be a power struggle. We can we can get through our differences and we can work through them. Not, not, not in spite of them, but maybe even at times because of of the differences that we bring to the table and and finding synergistic solutions to our common cause problems. So, Eliza, this has been a fantastic conversation. I, I love the work that you're doing, and I just encourage everybody to to check this out. The two websites, obviously we've we've talked about them before and different things that you can find on them. But meaningsofpower.com is one. And then ElizavetaFriesem.com is the other. Both those websites will be in the show notes and I appreciate your time today. Thank you so much.
[00:37:09:11] Elizaveta Friesem: Thank you so much for having me. It's been a great conversation.
[00:37:13:11] Wilk Wilkinson: Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Rate The Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together. So please take a moment to visit Braver Angels and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divide. This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friend. I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
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