Show Notes

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🎙️ Episode 266 – Beyond the Politics of Contempt with Beth Malow and Doug Teschner

🧠 Are We Doomed to Stay Divided? Or Can We Choose a Different Path?

In Derate The Hate Episode 266, host Wilk Wilkinson sits down with his fellow Braver Angels and civic bridge-builders Beth Malow and Doug Teschner to explore how we can change course—individually and collectively. Their upcoming book, Beyond the Politics of Contempt: Practical Steps to Build Positive Relationships in Divided Times, is more than a hopeful message—it’s a practical guide for how we can each play a part in mending our fractured communities.

This episode dives deep into the emotional toll of political polarization, the damage caused by “conflict entrepreneurs,” and the transformative power of self-reflection, empathy, and active listening. Beth and Doug share not just theory but actionable strategies to help you become part of the solution—starting today.

📚 About the Book

Beyond the Politics of Contempt focuses on:

✅ Building emotional resilience in politically tense times
✅ Healing relationships torn apart by ideological differences
✅ Balancing conviction with compassion for real understanding
✅ Fostering a national culture of kindness, dignity, and respect

📰 Don’t forget to subscribe to their free newsletter:
👉 Together Across Differences on Substack

🎧 Listen Now On Your Favorite Platform:

Apple Podcasts

Spotify

Google Podcasts

🔑 Top Takeaways:

Conflict entrepreneurs profit from division—we don’t have to feed them.

Self-awareness helps us reclaim our peace and power in contentious times.

Most people want to work together better—they just need the tools.

Real activism is about bridge-building, not burning others down.

Hope isn’t naïve—it’s strategic.

💬 Memorable Quotes:

“People are looking for something better.”
“Self-reflection is key to change.”
“We can solve any problem if we feel heard.”
“Hope is essential for our country.”

📣 Spread the Word

If you're tired of division and ready to take action for unity, this is a must-listen episode. Share with friends, family, or coworkers who are hungry for meaningful connection and civil discourse.

📲 Follow & Connect:

🌐 Visit togethernow.substack.com to subscribe to Beth and Doug’s free newsletter, Together Across Differences.

🌐 Visit BraverAngels.org to learn more about America's largest grassroots movement towards bridging divides. 

🎧 Subscribe to Derate The Hate on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite platform. Don’t forget to leave a rating and review!

📣 Share this episode with someone who’s ready to move beyond contempt and build a stronger, more united America.

What have you done today to make your life a better life? What have you done today to make the world a better place? The world is a better place if we are better people. That begins with each of us as individuals. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you’ve got. Make each and every day the day that you want it to be!

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I look forward to hearing from you!

Show Transcript

Transcript is AI generated and may have errors

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:43:15

Wilk Wilkinson

Welcome back, my friends, to the Derate the Hate podcast. I am your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage, Calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog. And those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. Each week I'm sharing stories from my path and using the power of conversation and collaboration with my many great guests.

00:00:43:17 - 00:01:07:23

Wilk Wilkinson

Together, we chart a course toward understanding, bridging divides and fostering a community where wisdom prevails over discord. Friends, it really is about bettering the world. One attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the Hate. The only good thing about a bad attitude is we have the ability as individuals to change it.

00:01:08:01 - 00:01:31:03

Wilk Wilkinson

For me, it starts with gratitude and personal accountability. I am so incredibly grateful that you have taken the time to join me for another powerful episode. Please remember to subscribe and share the podcast with your network of friends. If you would like to support the show, check out the Support Us page on the Derate the Hate website. With that, my friends, let's get to it.

00:01:31:03 - 00:02:05:05

Wilk Wilkinson

Now, if you've ever felt disheartened by the toxic divide that's tearing at the fabric of our society, you're not alone. But what if there were practical, real life steps we could take to turn things around? This week, I am absolutely thrilled to sit down with two of my fellow braver angels, Beth Malow and Doug Teschner, to talk about their powerful and timely new book, Beyond the Politics of Contempt Practical Steps to Build Positive Relationships in Divided Times.

00:02:05:07 - 00:02:29:23

Wilk Wilkinson

Beth and Doug bring a wealth of experience and compassion to the table, and their book is a beacon of hope for anyone looking to foster a real connection in these divisive times. We talk about the emotional toll of political strife, how conflict entrepreneurs are profiting from keeping us angry and why self-reflection is one of the most powerful tools that we have for change.

00:02:30:01 - 00:02:57:14

Wilk Wilkinson

This isn't just about talking across divides. It's about listening, learning, and choosing to be part of the solution. We dig into the skills that help mend relationships. The mindset shifts that spark understanding, and the kind of activism that actually builds bridges instead of burning them down. Oh, and make sure to check out their free Substack newsletter. Together, Across Differences act together.

00:02:57:14 - 00:03:09:00

Wilk Wilkinson

Now that substack.com. You don't want to miss this one's friends. So let's get to it. Here's my conversation with Beth Malow and Doug Teschner, Here we go.

00:03:09:00 - 00:03:11:01

Wilk Wilkinson

Beth, Malow and Doug Teschner

,

00:03:11:01 - 00:03:17:08

Wilk Wilkinson

my beautiful, braver angels colleagues. How are you this evening? Thank you for joining me on the The Derate The Hate podcast.

00:03:17:09 - 00:03:20:16

Doug Teschner

Well, we're we're happy to be here. Wilk.

00:03:20:18 - 00:03:23:10

Beth Malow

Yeah, it's going to be fun.

00:03:23:12 - 00:03:25:00

Wilk Wilkinson

Yeah. I'm so grateful that you,

00:03:25:00 - 00:03:29:13

Wilk Wilkinson

you two have decided to to join me for this conversation today. I,

00:03:29:13 - 00:03:33:04

Wilk Wilkinson

I know we've been talking through through different channels about this,

00:03:33:04 - 00:03:45:14

Wilk Wilkinson

this book that you, you all have coming out soon and a Substack that you both started. And a lot of it centers around the work that we've been doing for years together at Braver Angels.

00:03:45:16 - 00:03:46:06

Wilk Wilkinson

And,

00:03:46:06 - 00:04:14:05

Wilk Wilkinson

it's just a real treat for me to have you here, joining me here on the Derate the Hate podcast. So thank you so much to both of you for for taking the time. So so let's dive right into this. So, so the book that's going to be coming out soon. And you and you can tell the listeners when, but the book that's going to be coming out soon is called Beyond the Politics of Contempt Practical Steps to Build Positive Relationships in Divided Times.

00:04:14:07 - 00:04:15:17

Wilk Wilkinson

So let's

00:04:15:17 - 00:04:18:00

Wilk Wilkinson

start there. And,

00:04:18:00 - 00:04:18:10

Wilk Wilkinson

Beth,

00:04:18:10 - 00:04:19:17

Wilk Wilkinson

let's start with you.

00:04:19:17 - 00:04:24:05

Wilk Wilkinson

Tell me or more specifically, tell the DTH listeners, what is it,

00:04:24:05 - 00:04:34:17

Wilk Wilkinson

about the work that we've been doing about our politically divided times that made the two of you decide to to join forces and write this,

00:04:34:17 - 00:04:35:19

Wilk Wilkinson

what

00:04:35:19 - 00:04:39:10

Wilk Wilkinson

by all rights, is going to be an incredibly important book,

00:04:39:10 - 00:04:40:10

Wilk Wilkinson

for our time.

00:04:40:12 - 00:04:50:12

Beth Malow

Well. Let's start. Well, this has been a labor of love and, I couldn't think of anybody else to write it with who would be so extraordinary. But,

00:04:50:12 - 00:05:08:08

Beth Malow

Doug and I have been working together closely since I moved to Vermont last summer. From Tennessee. I've been able to go into the New Hampshire state legislature and work with him, and I'll talk more about that in a moment and workshops for the legislature.

00:05:08:14 - 00:05:41:19

Beth Malow

And we've also done workshops for the community. These are Braver Angels workshops, which I know you're very familiar with. It's it's out of that work. We've realized that there's a hunger that people have for learning how to work together better and cross those divides that are just so toxic right now in our lives. That really motivated me. And when Doug asked me and invited me to join the project to say, absolutely yes, I'm I'm thrilled to be part of this.

00:05:41:20 - 00:05:43:21

Wilk Wilkinson

Yeah, super excited about that. Because

00:05:43:21 - 00:05:45:16

Wilk Wilkinson

there is a hunger. So, Doug,

00:05:45:16 - 00:06:01:20

Wilk Wilkinson

why why don't you kind of expand on that for me? What? Tell me about this hunger. What have you been seeing up there in the New England area? As far as a hunger for for finding a resolution or working on these toxic, polarized times.

00:06:01:21 - 00:06:08:07

Doug Teschner

Well, let me just step back a little bit. Go back to Gettysburg, the convention. We had a Braver Angel convention, which,

00:06:08:07 - 00:06:27:01

Doug Teschner

you know, was actually two summers ago. And, you know, at that opening session, we were asked, why are you here? And I wrote down on my card, I'm here because I worry that my grandchildren are not going to enjoy the benefits of this country that I've had, and that it's sort of been a real motivator for me.

00:06:27:01 - 00:06:39:08

Doug Teschner

I mean, I'm not getting any younger. I suppose I could be just having a quiet retirement, but I've been doing this very meaningful work. And I looked at where, what can we do? What can I do to step up? And I sort of made a,

00:06:39:08 - 00:06:42:10

Doug Teschner

a pledge, I guess you would say I'm not really the sort of guy.

00:06:42:12 - 00:06:55:12

Doug Teschner

There's a lot of New Year's resolutions, but I did one at the end of 2023. I said, I'm going to write a book. And I started off thinking this wasn't going to be so difficult. I've done it a few months. And,

00:06:55:12 - 00:07:02:12

Doug Teschner

but from the beginning, I wanted to reach out to other people, other partners and, and other great range of folks.

00:07:02:14 - 00:07:03:00

Doug Teschner

And,

00:07:03:00 - 00:07:03:09

Doug Teschner

Beth,

00:07:03:09 - 00:07:08:14

Doug Teschner

joined me partway through the effort about the time she moved up here. And,

00:07:08:14 - 00:07:13:04

Doug Teschner

she's just a great teammate, but, you know, I'm just concerned where

00:07:13:04 - 00:07:23:11

Doug Teschner

where are we going? And I think the challenge for us and braver angels and other people that are concerned about this is how do we broaden the message, how do we create a national movement?

00:07:23:13 - 00:07:46:21

Doug Teschner

You know, we've been very successful in Braver Angels with workshops and alliance chapters. But how do we take it farther? How do we get more people involved? How do we touch into sort of the the pain people are feeling out there? And, you know, when we started writing the book, we were thinking about we want to get help to if we want to appeal to people that make our country better.

00:07:46:23 - 00:08:06:22

Doug Teschner

But as we get into it more, we so so let's wait a minute. Let's step back. Let's help people deal with their relationships. We know that people are struggling with just the people that they know and their family members. And you know, that wonderful family politics workshop that Braver Angels has. But I, I don't think it gets emphasized enough.

00:08:07:00 - 00:08:18:10

Doug Teschner

I said, let's appeal to people's self-interest, never mind getting them to help save the country. And then we took it. We were as we were writing, we got it, took it, and down to another level, which was which was,

00:08:18:10 - 00:08:26:12

Doug Teschner

how about people's mental health? I mean, you know how people are so stressed out right now about politics and, you know, let's try to help people.

00:08:26:12 - 00:08:45:04

Doug Teschner

They, you know, find a way to take a deep breath and step back. And what can we do about it? And and how can you feel better about it? So this is a huge challenge. We know that and you know that. That's why you're doing this podcast. Right. And which is we try to so we're trying to do our part with the book.

00:08:45:04 - 00:09:03:04

Doug Teschner

And as we talk to people. Yeah, I think people are hungry. People once are looking for something better. I think people are concerned. You know, one of the sources we tapped into is the Hidden Tribes report that talks about the, the extremes are the ones that are driving the political agenda.

00:09:03:04 - 00:09:08:09

Doug Teschner

But there's an exhausted majority out there that's not really getting enough attention.

00:09:08:11 - 00:09:08:17

Doug Teschner

And,

00:09:08:17 - 00:09:13:05

Doug Teschner

you know, we're trying to appeal to the exhausted majority. We're trying to appeal to everybody,

00:09:13:05 - 00:09:30:06

Doug Teschner

you know, even the people on the extremes, there has to be a better way to do this than demonizing people on the other side. But people I said majorities, too, are just kind of like this. We got gotta we got a picture in our book that people are just kind of got their hit their ears over there, their hands over their ears.

00:09:30:08 - 00:09:47:08

Doug Teschner

They're in there is people are yelling over them. You know, there's exhausted majority. And we can rise up this the majority say, wait a minute, we gotta find a better way. We gotta talk to our neighbors. So I think that's really the appeal to the book.

00:09:47:10 - 00:09:51:13

Wilk Wilkinson

And I think I think it's hugely important trying to figure.

00:09:51:13 - 00:09:56:11

Wilk Wilkinson

you know, that's that is the million dollar question. How do we get more people involved?

00:09:56:13 - 00:09:59:00

Wilk Wilkinson

How do we we get people interested in,

00:09:59:00 - 00:10:11:13

Wilk Wilkinson

in, in the, the idea of the work that we do because I find people are hungry for this, but they a lot of times they just they don't want to get involved. They want to stay away.

00:10:11:13 - 00:10:18:03

Wilk Wilkinson

the reason that they're in the middle, that isn't making all the noise is because they don't like all the noise.

00:10:18:03 - 00:10:22:18

Wilk Wilkinson

They don't like all the ugliness that they see on either side of the spectrum.

00:10:22:18 - 00:10:27:10

Wilk Wilkinson

You know, our friend, Manu Meel from Bridge USA talks about the hopeful majority.

00:10:27:10 - 00:10:35:13

Wilk Wilkinson

But but I think a lot of that hopeful majority is hopeful. But they're exhausted and they don't want any part of the ugliness and the toxicity,

00:10:35:13 - 00:10:37:01

Wilk Wilkinson

the ones.

00:10:37:03 - 00:10:50:00

Wilk Wilkinson

And then the other thing you talk about their Doug is, is, is how those people on either end of the spectrum or the really toxic ones, and those are the ones that I talk about as being so involved in,

00:10:50:00 - 00:11:03:02

Wilk Wilkinson

using for fear, outrage and grievance as these, these this model for keeping people scared and mad and aggrieved over whether it be some real or perceived grievance.

00:11:03:08 - 00:11:27:12

Wilk Wilkinson

But they have an uncanny ability. These outrage entrepreneurs and grievance grifters on either side, because it's certainly by no means is it exclusive to one side or the other, no matter who's telling you what. But they have this uncanny ability to to whip up people's fear and outrage. So, Beth, talk to me a little bit about that because,

00:11:27:12 - 00:11:28:20

Wilk Wilkinson

That's the million dollar question.

00:11:28:20 - 00:11:49:03

Beth Malow

Go for it. Yeah, well, just like we have the exhausted majority image in our book, we all are super excited. We just, talked to our graphic design person about our conflict entrepreneur or outrage entrepreneur or whatever you want to call it.

00:11:49:03 - 00:11:58:14

Beth Malow

We are going to have a crocodile with eating or attempting to chomp on the American flag, and we just can't wait.

00:11:58:14 - 00:12:07:14

Beth Malow

We are super pumped about how every time we introduce conflict entrepreneur, those forces that you alluded to

00:12:07:14 - 00:12:10:22

Beth Malow

that are driving us apart and stirring up trouble,

00:12:10:22 - 00:12:34:12

Beth Malow

we will be including that image because we we want it to be a little playful. We want it to be a little bit funny, but it really is quite serious. And Amanda, Ripley wrote the book High Conflict talks about the conflict entrepreneurs and the idea that, I actually think that this is the way forward.

00:12:34:12 - 00:12:52:22

Beth Malow

Americans want to believe what they see. They want. We're we're a rugged individualist. We want to think for ourselves, and we don't want people mucking with us, whether it be outside foreign countries, right, like China and Russia

00:12:52:22 - 00:12:56:00

Beth Malow

or other forces like social media.

00:12:56:00 - 00:13:03:21

Beth Malow

There's there's forces on both sides. I think we would agree, not just on the left or the right, but really both sides.

00:13:03:21 - 00:13:34:10

Beth Malow

And then even foreign countries that are just trying to stir up travel and stir up division. And we're better than that as Americans. And that's one of the themes that we revisit again and again throughout this book. Yeah. Whether it's telling our personal stories and how we've overcome those people who were or forces that were trying to stir up trouble, or how you can be, for example, a better consumer of what you read about in the news.

00:13:34:12 - 00:13:46:12

Beth Malow

We really want to empower our readers to think for themselves and say, I'm better than this, and I can transform this time.

00:13:46:14 - 00:14:11:23

Wilk Wilkinson

Absolutely. And I want to I want to expand on that, because I do think as Americans, we are better than that. I do think as Americans we are so much better than what we're seeing from the loudest voices, whether they be the loud voices in politics or the loud voices in the media or the loud voices that that have become so popular in social media,

00:14:12:00 - 00:14:21:15

Wilk Wilkinson

each one of those things, in my opinion, represent such a small segment of who we are.

00:14:21:17 - 00:14:27:04

Wilk Wilkinson

And unfortunately, Doug, we are not being

00:14:27:04 - 00:14:34:18

Wilk Wilkinson

accurately represented as Americans by those loudest voices.

00:14:34:18 - 00:14:41:14

Wilk Wilkinson

We are we are being shown to be something that we are not because they are the ones that get the most airtime. Talk a bit about that.

00:14:41:19 - 00:14:49:17

Doug Teschner

Yeah. Well, we know from our Braver Angels workshops, you get people who are on different sides in a room in the head with the right kind of,

00:14:49:17 - 00:15:03:00

Doug Teschner

for the right kind of design and the right kind of conversation. People walk away and say, oh, we have a lot more in common than we thought. We always get that when people come to those workshops.

00:15:03:02 - 00:15:11:20

Doug Teschner

And what we've really tried to talk about in the book is getting people to kind of step back and say, wait a minute, how are we being manipulated?

00:15:11:20 - 00:15:23:03

Doug Teschner

By these conflict entrepreneurs, by people who are making money or power, by trying to divide us. And that's why I like that. We like that image of eating the American flag.

00:15:23:05 - 00:15:27:20

Doug Teschner

These people are not doing this for the country. They're doing it for themselves.

00:15:27:22 - 00:15:28:20

Wilk Wilkinson

Right? That’s right.

00:15:28:22 - 00:15:42:15

Doug Teschner

And so a big part of this is getting people to sort of say, wait a minute, I need to be a little more reflective of what I'm seeing when I'm watching. You know, we talked. We have a long chapter touching about all the causes of, of,

00:15:42:15 - 00:15:46:13

Doug Teschner

of this polarization, of which there are many. But I think the,

00:15:46:13 - 00:15:56:06

Doug Teschner

the, the technology aspect, the conflict entrepreneurs and the way the social media works is the algorithms that push people apart, that attract the most extreme stuff.

00:15:56:06 - 00:16:07:07

Doug Teschner

And that's what you keep seeing in your feed. And it plays on fears. Like you said, it's playing on our worst instincts and it is just so dangerous.

00:16:07:07 - 00:16:12:23

Doug Teschner

Another thing we're really trying to emphasize in the book is getting people to sort of step back and think about,

00:16:12:23 - 00:16:16:06

Doug Teschner

their own personal values, what's really important

00:16:16:06 - 00:16:32:02

Doug Teschner

to you and who you are, and then ask them to think a little bit about the people who voted on the other side, maybe make a list of the characteristics of what they think about those people, and then kind of compare the value list to how they're thinking about other people.

00:16:32:04 - 00:17:01:10

Doug Teschner

And I think people would most people would, would step back and say, wait a minute, maybe I'm not living up to my values. When I think about the people on the other side of politics. So the lot of this is self-reflection and, and, you know, looking within yourself, digging deep within yourself, these are and reflect on what we're seeing and how how this media environment and social media environment and these conflict entrepreneurs, how it's all playing on us and, and

00:17:01:10 - 00:17:05:23

Doug Teschner

and then then of course, we gotta give people hope that, okay, what am I going to do about it?

00:17:06:04 - 00:17:09:18

Doug Teschner

But it starts with that inner work and that inner reflection.

00:17:09:20 - 00:17:14:12

Beth Malow

Yeah. So what we're going to do, I think are critical.

00:17:14:14 - 00:17:15:14

Wilk Wilkinson

Yeah, absolutely.

00:17:15:14 - 00:17:25:14

Wilk Wilkinson

I and that's the thing, right. Is, is be part of the solution instead of being part of the problem. And, and Doug, I want to go back to something that you said right in the intro and,

00:17:25:14 - 00:17:31:12

Wilk Wilkinson

and, and kind of have you both play on this a little bit because, it's something that is so dearly important to me.

00:17:31:18 - 00:17:44:12

Wilk Wilkinson

Doug, you talked about, you know, leaving the world or a better world for your grandkids. And and, I mean, I know you're a parent and a grandparent, Beth. I know you're a parent, and and I'm a parent, and

00:17:44:12 - 00:18:01:10

Wilk Wilkinson

one of the reasons that I started doing this podcast and started doing the work that I do with Braver Angels is because I knew that the toxicity that that I once engaged in was not doing anything to make the world a better place.

00:18:01:12 - 00:18:10:14

Wilk Wilkinson

I look around and I often wonder, I try not to ascribe motives to people anymore in, in the things that that they do or the things that they say.

00:18:10:14 - 00:18:26:14

Wilk Wilkinson

But it's really hard to look at some of these people that are doing and saying the things that they are doing insane, and believe that they have any other motivation than when, like what you said, Doug, is they're doing it to benefit themselves, not to benefit the country.

00:18:26:16 - 00:18:42:15

Wilk Wilkinson

It hurts me to see that there are so many people out there that are willing to just completely, shed themselves of any responsibility when it comes to the humanity of others or what's going to become of our country if we continue to

00:18:42:15 - 00:18:55:15

Wilk Wilkinson

say and do the things that they do. We see it in politics. And that's why I often say that those who represent us are often not the best of us, because the things that they say and do are not something that's going to going to produce something positive.

00:18:55:17 - 00:19:16:16

Wilk Wilkinson

Talk to me, Beth, and and then you can play on this too, Doug. But but being part of the solution and we will definitely get into, you know, the solutions that you guys talk about in your book, Beyond and Beyond the Politics of Contempt, what you guys are doing with your Substack together across differences, these things are hugely important.

00:19:16:22 - 00:19:34:16

Wilk Wilkinson

And when it comes to being part of the solution instead of part of the problem, there are way too many people out there falling short. Whether it's intentional or not, I don't know. I can't pretend to believe. I know what everybody's motivations are, but but we can see what the results are. And as our friend John Wood Jr. says,

00:19:34:16 - 00:19:42:02

Wilk Wilkinson

toxic polarization is is the one problem that ensures other all the other problems will not be solved.

00:19:42:04 - 00:19:50:19

Wilk Wilkinson

So how do we become part of the solution instead of so many who have who have definitely made a home, making it part of making themselves part of the problem?

00:19:50:21 - 00:19:53:16

Beth Malow

Well, I think that there are

00:19:53:16 - 00:19:56:00

Beth Malow

some of us who

00:19:56:00 - 00:19:56:19

Beth Malow

are not

00:19:56:19 - 00:20:03:08

Beth Malow

necessarily driving the conflict, but are getting caught up in the conflict, and

00:20:03:08 - 00:20:17:02

Beth Malow

we refer to them as conflict enablers. And it's so easy to be in that category. I mean, I think I've been in that category for sure at certain times in my life. It's often driven by fear itself.

00:20:17:03 - 00:20:31:21

Beth Malow

Yeah, yeah, it's often driven by fear. It's driven by a sense of wanting to belong to a group we call them. Well, you know, Monica Guzman talks about the silos and all the siloing, and I feel that,

00:20:31:21 - 00:20:35:13

Beth Malow

that is something that we definitely address in the book. So,

00:20:35:13 - 00:20:39:16

Beth Malow

that is when Doug was saying, reflecting and starting with yourself.

00:20:39:16 - 00:20:46:09

Beth Malow

And how do you feel about people who might have voted for different candidate in the last election? That's,

00:20:46:09 - 00:20:51:04

Beth Malow

a very big focus of our group. And I'm sorry, of our book.

00:20:51:04 - 00:21:00:09

Beth Malow

So really reflecting and I try to include a lot of stories, personal stories about how we've learned to,

00:21:00:09 - 00:21:06:20

Beth Malow

see humanity in others. I think that's just really, really important.

00:21:06:21 - 00:21:34:14

Beth Malow

I think that is the first step to recognize that you may be a conflict enabler. It's not fun to think about that. But it's it's very possible. And if a light bulb can go off and we can say, hey, I think I just read about myself, then that's the first step to change it. And if you change the people around, you can change.

00:21:34:14 - 00:21:35:06

Beth Malow

It's like,

00:21:35:06 - 00:21:42:10

Beth Malow

learning to depolarize not just for yourself, but your entire peer group. That's very powerful.

00:21:42:12 - 00:22:05:14

Wilk Wilkinson

That that self-reflection is huge. And and, Doug, you can talk a little bit about this, but that circle of influence. So like Beth is talking about, once you start to depolarize yourself and you start feeling and seeing the things that you've done to enable this kind of thing, it's amazing how you'll start to see the people within your circle change with that.

00:22:05:16 - 00:22:19:18

Doug Teschner

Yeah, you know, it's so much us, you know, us versus them. Culture is sort of become so dominant. And if you're not us, you're then, you know, we talk about this actually we got we had we were on a podcast with a big group, a big,

00:22:19:18 - 00:22:34:10

Doug Teschner

a big group anti-Trump group called rise for freedom. There were 768 people on the zoom from a couple of weeks ago, but the yeah, they asked us to come and talk about how to talk to people you disagree with.

00:22:34:12 - 00:22:43:21

Doug Teschner

And I was a little skeptical going into that meeting. But, you know, people from a lot of those people I was trying to keep up with, they can imagine what it's like keeping up with the

00:22:43:21 - 00:22:53:16

Doug Teschner

the comments segment, 768 people. But a lot of the people were taking it in. And, you know, we're trying to appeal to people, okay, do you want to be an activist?

00:22:53:16 - 00:23:06:01

Doug Teschner

You want to go protest? And we're saying, yeah, that's fine, but can you do it in a way that doesn't invite people to your side or welcomes people to your side?

00:23:06:01 - 00:23:28:13

Doug Teschner

You know, somebody told me a story. I didn't didn't have it in the book because I couldn't quite remember who told it to me. But they were at some kind of a protest, and a guy in a pickup truck drove up and he had a bumper sticker for the I forget what it was, abortion, what it was, and it was clear the guy kind of wanted to talk to the people, and they started belittling him, and he drove on, you know, how do

00:23:28:13 - 00:23:49:14

Doug Teschner

you how do you how do you bring people over? You know, if you want to be an activist, fine. But do it as a bridge, build a bridge, doing it a way that brings bridge building. And we're a little concerned about some of the activists. We're seeing some of the groups right now. Are they doing that or is it just let's just bad mouth the other people.

00:23:49:16 - 00:24:10:04

Doug Teschner

You know, and and even in The Hidden Tribes, you part, they talk about the people on the extremes. They want to vanquish the other side, though sometimes when I have conversations with people, with people, I said, what's your goal? Right? What's your goal? And, and, and it kind of brings them up a little short, you know, like, do you want civil war?

00:24:10:05 - 00:24:22:12

Doug Teschner

Is that what you want? Right. I mean, and or if you want to bring people to your side, you're not going to get there by shaming them or telling them they're stupid or, you know, telling they're ignorant.

00:24:22:12 - 00:24:31:16

Doug Teschner

But this is what we see. And all the time it's very dangerous. And if people can't, you know, so. So what's important things got to be?

00:24:31:20 - 00:24:42:05

Doug Teschner

Look, start with yourself. Look at yourself and you know, we all make assumptions about other people. And it's just human nature. You see somebody and what they're wearing and what whatever.

00:24:42:05 - 00:24:51:21

Doug Teschner

And, and and there's also a part of the problem here, as we see it, is, you know, there's a decline in basic kindness in how people treat each other.

00:24:51:21 - 00:25:10:09

Doug Teschner

You know, it used to be pretty rare to see somebody give you a finger on the highway. Yeah, but but people do that more now and it's, it's become it's become more and more socially acceptable. And so there's a bigger issue. It's bigger than politics. And this is we're interested in,

00:25:10:09 - 00:25:15:21

Doug Teschner

Robert Putnam's work, bowling alone. And also it's the most recent book, The Upswing.

00:25:15:22 - 00:25:19:08

Doug Teschner

He talked about. He talked about a decline in,

00:25:19:08 - 00:25:37:16

Doug Teschner

the Gilded Age. That's interesting. I've seen that term come across, but that was sort of a period, kind of a dark period in this country in the late 1800s. But he said from there there was an upswing up to about to about 1960. And then this current situation where there was when the decline started.

00:25:37:16 - 00:25:44:12

Doug Teschner

So what are we going to do to create another upswing? It's more than politics. It's how we see it. You treat each other.

00:25:44:14 - 00:25:46:15

Beth Malow

Yes. We bring up a lot of themes.

00:25:46:15 - 00:26:06:06

Beth Malow

As Doug said in the book, we we don't just tell people what we think. What are is happening, and we don't just tell them what they should do, but we we really try to bring up a lot of thought leaders and themes. Like Putnam, I like the work braver angels is doing with the citizen led solutions.

00:26:06:08 - 00:26:10:04

Beth Malow

That Steve Saltwick and others are taking a lead on,

00:26:10:04 - 00:26:22:10

Beth Malow

community. I even have something on the science communication and the work we're doing with the Truth & trust project. Wilk, it's, it's we're trying to use as many examples as we can and,

00:26:22:10 - 00:26:24:04

Beth Malow

to show people,

00:26:24:04 - 00:26:33:12

Beth Malow

a way forward that will relate to them. And I just want to say one quick thing about their activism is not incompatible with bridge building.

00:26:33:12 - 00:26:51:09

Beth Malow

If you really want to be an effective activist, you need to be able to understand where the people who disagree with you are coming from. That's how you know, I don't want to have an opportunity to influence them. You have to understand them first, and they have to feel like they've been heard.

00:26:51:09 - 00:26:57:19

Beth Malow

So I'm a big believer that bridge building and activism go hand in hand, regardless of whether you're,

00:26:57:19 - 00:27:04:01

Beth Malow

it's I don't know, local government issues or more, national issues.

00:27:04:01 - 00:27:06:13

Wilk Wilkinson

and I agree, I, you know, I think the,

00:27:06:13 - 00:27:09:23

Wilk Wilkinson

Doug makes an incredible point when he brings up the example of,

00:27:09:23 - 00:27:22:19

Wilk Wilkinson

of the guy in the pickup truck driver drives up to the, the protesters and has a genuine desire to, you know, understand what these people are. What is your cause? What are what are you trying to,

00:27:22:19 - 00:27:24:05

Wilk Wilkinson

to promote here?

00:27:24:05 - 00:27:26:17

Wilk Wilkinson

And when they start to belittle him.

00:27:26:17 - 00:27:27:01

Wilk Wilkinson

Yeah.

00:27:27:01 - 00:28:07:06

Wilk Wilkinson

I mean, driving away is is the is the perfect example, right? Because nobody's going to just sit there. I talk a lot about people, you know, once once you belittle them, either belittle their opinion or belittle them or whatever their ears slam shut. I mean, so often I'll ask the question of people, whether it be somebody on the left asking of people on the right or somebody on the right asking of people on the left, how often do you run into somebody on the other side who can accurately represent your position on a particular topic in a way that you would agree, and very seldom do

00:28:07:06 - 00:28:19:00

Wilk Wilkinson

I get an answer of, oh, of course, yeah, I run into them all the time. It's just not a thing. It's because far too often people, when they try to have one of these conversations,

00:28:19:00 - 00:28:19:13

Wilk Wilkinson

they

00:28:19:13 - 00:28:24:02

Wilk Wilkinson

are immediately attacked or they're demeaned or belittled for,

00:28:24:02 - 00:28:29:23

Wilk Wilkinson

being one of them, you know, going to the US versus them thing, one of the greatest examples

00:28:29:23 - 00:28:30:15

Wilk Wilkinson

of,

00:28:30:15 - 00:28:36:05

Wilk Wilkinson

this whole thing about making assumptions like you were talking about, Doug, is Monica Guzman's,

00:28:36:05 - 00:28:36:16

Wilk Wilkinson

statement.

00:28:36:16 - 00:29:04:18

Wilk Wilkinson

Those who are underrepresented in our lives will be overrepresented in our mind, in our imaginations. We begin to make assumptions about people we truly know nothing about, and we make them out to be some kind of boogeyman. And instead of actually getting to know who they are. And then I always I, you know, we talked about that pro humanity stance earlier before where where people forget that these are people, these are human beings.

00:29:04:23 - 00:29:34:08

Wilk Wilkinson

They have kids and grandkids like we do. Right? They have something to fight for and they probably have a they have justify in some way what they're doing, what they're saying. But sometimes we just need to give them the solution and show them how important it is to listen with genuine curiosity, because if they do not and they go on the attack right away, that other person, their ears slam shut.

00:29:34:08 - 00:29:47:16

Wilk Wilkinson

They aren't listening anymore. Do you actually want to accomplish something with this conversation, or do you just want it to shut down with no resolution whatsoever? And probably end in a worse position than you started with?

00:29:47:18 - 00:30:12:04

Beth Malow

Absolutely. And I would argue that if you can figure out how to connect with someone and as you say, they feel heard, they've heard you, they may disagree with you, but they've heard you. I feel like you can solve any problem. It's it's cutting through that initial demonizing, I guess, is one word.

00:30:12:04 - 00:30:17:11

Beth Malow

Once you can see each other as human beings, then I think you can.

00:30:17:11 - 00:30:22:16

Beth Malow

You can share your perspectives and you can solve any problem. I really feel that way.

00:30:22:16 - 00:30:29:10

Wilk Wilkinson

Absolutely, absolutely. So, so as we wrap up our time here together, Beth and Doug,

00:30:29:10 - 00:30:31:08

Wilk Wilkinson

what I want you to do is I want you to,

00:30:31:08 - 00:30:34:20

Wilk Wilkinson

I guess finish off, I'm going to give each one of you,

00:30:34:20 - 00:30:45:21

Wilk Wilkinson

a final word here, but but finish off by telling the d rate the hate listeners and all our friends at Braver Angels and everybody who might just be hearing about this for the very first time.

00:30:45:23 - 00:30:48:06

Wilk Wilkinson

What is each one of your,

00:30:48:06 - 00:30:53:02

Wilk Wilkinson

biggest takeaway that that you want people to take away from this book?

00:30:53:02 - 00:31:01:07

Wilk Wilkinson

Beyond the politics of contempt, practical steps to build positive relationships and divided times. And then, of course, people can obviously,

00:31:01:07 - 00:31:05:12

Wilk Wilkinson

visit your Substack two together across differences. So, Doug, let me,

00:31:05:12 - 00:31:09:22

Wilk Wilkinson

let me start with, well, actually, Beth, I'll start with you and then Doug, I'll give you the final word.

00:31:09:23 - 00:31:12:09

Wilk Wilkinson

Since we started with Beth in the beginning. How's that sound?

00:31:12:11 - 00:31:37:21

Beth Malow

I feel that if you want to learn how to just be better in your own life as. As Doug said, you want a better physical health. Mental health? You want to learn how to get along with your uncle. So this is an important book. If you even want to go a step further and make a difference for our country.

00:31:37:23 - 00:32:07:10

Beth Malow

It's a really important book, and we do it not just by laying out the problem, but by giving you concrete solutions and telling a lot of stories from our own experiences so that you can understand where you're at and where you want to be. Reflect on your values and then share the book with other people so that they can make a difference in the world and in their lives Also...

00:32:07:10 - 00:32:10:07

Wilk Wilkinson

Beautiful, Doug.

00:32:10:09 - 00:32:37:14

Doug Teschner

Yeah, me. It starts with hope. You know, we're trying to give people hope. You know, people are so discouraged and down. But there's hope. There's hope for our country. And we give concrete steps of what you can do to, to, to to bring that hope to life. And and we're not we're not saying that's easy or simple, but, our book will be out this summer where we're really pushing on it.

00:32:37:15 - 00:32:45:18

Doug Teschner

We were hoping for the 4th of July. Not we might not make the 4th of July, but we hope to at least make it the month of July. And we have the Substack,

00:32:45:18 - 00:32:54:15

Doug Teschner

If you go to Together Across Differences, you'll find it. We'd love it. We got more than 600 subscribers who are sharing, different ideas, themes that are in the book.

00:32:54:15 - 00:33:01:14

Doug Teschner

It's free. I mean, yeah, there's an option for paid if you want to help with the cost, but that's not the most important thing is just to be on there.

00:33:01:14 - 00:33:09:19

Doug Teschner

As a free subscriber, we'd love to connect with you and and have you be part of this journey with us.

00:33:09:20 - 00:33:11:15

Wilk Wilkinson

That's wonderful. So the,

00:33:11:15 - 00:33:15:16

Wilk Wilkinson

the Substack is together now.substack.com,

00:33:15:16 - 00:33:21:14

Wilk Wilkinson

together across differences is the name of the Substack here with Beth Malow and Doug Teschner,

00:33:21:14 - 00:33:38:02

Wilk Wilkinson

good friends of mine from Braver Angels, the upcoming book that will be out this summer. Beyond the Politics of Contempt, Practical Steps to Build Positive Relationships and Divided times. And so grateful for both of you for the work that you're doing for the work that we do at Braver Angels.

00:33:38:03 - 00:33:38:14

Wilk Wilkinson

And,

00:33:38:14 - 00:33:42:10

Wilk Wilkinson

looking forward to the book. Thank you so much to both of you, Beth and Doug. Thank you.

00:33:42:15 - 00:33:43:11

Beth Malow

Thank you.

00:33:43:11 - 00:34:03:05

Wilk Wilkinson

Friends. If there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. Share it with your friends, share it far and wide. And of course, if you haven't done so already, be sure to subscribe right from our website so you can get the Derate The Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week.

00:34:03:06 - 00:34:19:06

Wilk Wilkinson

So this is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything that you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make each and every day the day that you want it to be. If there is something that you would like to share with me, you can catch me on most social media platforms.

00:34:19:11 - 00:34:45:00

Wilk Wilkinson

Or you can email me directly. Wilk@WilksWorldcom. With that, my friends, I am going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.