Send Wilk a text with your feedback!
In Derate The Hate Episode 266, host Wilk Wilkinson sits down with his fellow Braver Angels and civic bridge-builders Beth Malow and Doug Teschner to explore how we can change courseāindividually and collectively. Their upcoming book, Beyond the Politics of Contempt: Practical Steps to Build Positive Relationships in Divided Times, is more than a hopeful messageāitās a practical guide for how we can each play a part in mending our fractured communities.
This episode dives deep into the emotional toll of political polarization, the damage caused by āconflict entrepreneurs,ā and the transformative power of self-reflection, empathy, and active listening. Beth and Doug share not just theory but actionable strategies to help you become part of the solutionāstarting today.
Beyond the Politics of Contempt focuses on:
ā
Building emotional resilience in politically tense times
ā
Healing relationships torn apart by ideological differences
ā
Balancing conviction with compassion for real understanding
ā
Fostering a national culture of kindness, dignity, and respect
š° Donāt forget to subscribe to their free newsletter:
š Together Across Differences on Substack
Conflict entrepreneurs profit from divisionāwe donāt have to feed them.
Self-awareness helps us reclaim our peace and power in contentious times.
Most people want to work together betterāthey just need the tools.
Real activism is about bridge-building, not burning others down.
Hope isnāt naĆÆveāitās strategic.
āPeople are looking for something better.ā
āSelf-reflection is key to change.ā
āWe can solve any problem if we feel heard.ā
āHope is essential for our country.ā
If you're tired of division and ready to take action for unity, this is a must-listen episode. Share with friends, family, or coworkers who are hungry for meaningful connection and civil discourse.
š Visit togethernow.substack.com to subscribe to Beth and Dougās free newsletter, Together Across Differences.
š Visit BraverAngels.org to learn more about America's largest grassroots movement towards bridging divides.
š§ Subscribe to Derate The Hate on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite platform. Donāt forget to leave a rating and review!
š£ Share this episode with someone whoās ready to move beyond contempt and build a stronger, more united America.
What have you done today to make your life a better life? What have you done today to make the world a better place? The world is a better place if we are better people. That begins with each of us as individuals. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything youāve got. Make each and every day the day that you want it to be!
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I look forward to hearing from you!
Transcript is AI generated and may have errors
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:43:15
Wilk Wilkinson
Welcome back, my friends, to the Derate the Hate podcast. I am your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage, Calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog. And those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. Each week I'm sharing stories from my path and using the power of conversation and collaboration with my many great guests.
00:00:43:17 - 00:01:07:23
Wilk Wilkinson
Together, we chart a course toward understanding, bridging divides and fostering a community where wisdom prevails over discord. Friends, it really is about bettering the world. One attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the Hate. The only good thing about a bad attitude is we have the ability as individuals to change it.
00:01:08:01 - 00:01:31:03
Wilk Wilkinson
For me, it starts with gratitude and personal accountability. I am so incredibly grateful that you have taken the time to join me for another powerful episode. Please remember to subscribe and share the podcast with your network of friends. If you would like to support the show, check out the Support Us page on the Derate the Hate website. With that, my friends, let's get to it.
00:01:31:03 - 00:02:05:05
Wilk Wilkinson
Now, if you've ever felt disheartened by the toxic divide that's tearing at the fabric of our society, you're not alone. But what if there were practical, real life steps we could take to turn things around? This week, I am absolutely thrilled to sit down with two of my fellow braver angels, Beth Malow and Doug Teschner, to talk about their powerful and timely new book, Beyond the Politics of Contempt Practical Steps to Build Positive Relationships in Divided Times.
00:02:05:07 - 00:02:29:23
Wilk Wilkinson
Beth and Doug bring a wealth of experience and compassion to the table, and their book is a beacon of hope for anyone looking to foster a real connection in these divisive times. We talk about the emotional toll of political strife, how conflict entrepreneurs are profiting from keeping us angry and why self-reflection is one of the most powerful tools that we have for change.
00:02:30:01 - 00:02:57:14
Wilk Wilkinson
This isn't just about talking across divides. It's about listening, learning, and choosing to be part of the solution. We dig into the skills that help mend relationships. The mindset shifts that spark understanding, and the kind of activism that actually builds bridges instead of burning them down. Oh, and make sure to check out their free Substack newsletter. Together, Across Differences act together.
00:02:57:14 - 00:03:09:00
Wilk Wilkinson
Now that substack.com. You don't want to miss this one's friends. So let's get to it. Here's my conversation with Beth Malow and Doug Teschner, Here we go.
00:03:09:00 - 00:03:11:01
Wilk Wilkinson
Beth, Malow and Doug Teschner
,
00:03:11:01 - 00:03:17:08
Wilk Wilkinson
my beautiful, braver angels colleagues. How are you this evening? Thank you for joining me on the The Derate The Hate podcast.
00:03:17:09 - 00:03:20:16
Doug Teschner
Well, we're we're happy to be here. Wilk.
00:03:20:18 - 00:03:23:10
Beth Malow
Yeah, it's going to be fun.
00:03:23:12 - 00:03:25:00
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah. I'm so grateful that you,
00:03:25:00 - 00:03:29:13
Wilk Wilkinson
you two have decided to to join me for this conversation today. I,
00:03:29:13 - 00:03:33:04
Wilk Wilkinson
I know we've been talking through through different channels about this,
00:03:33:04 - 00:03:45:14
Wilk Wilkinson
this book that you, you all have coming out soon and a Substack that you both started. And a lot of it centers around the work that we've been doing for years together at Braver Angels.
00:03:45:16 - 00:03:46:06
Wilk Wilkinson
And,
00:03:46:06 - 00:04:14:05
Wilk Wilkinson
it's just a real treat for me to have you here, joining me here on the Derate the Hate podcast. So thank you so much to both of you for for taking the time. So so let's dive right into this. So, so the book that's going to be coming out soon. And you and you can tell the listeners when, but the book that's going to be coming out soon is called Beyond the Politics of Contempt Practical Steps to Build Positive Relationships in Divided Times.
00:04:14:07 - 00:04:15:17
Wilk Wilkinson
So let's
00:04:15:17 - 00:04:18:00
Wilk Wilkinson
start there. And,
00:04:18:00 - 00:04:18:10
Wilk Wilkinson
Beth,
00:04:18:10 - 00:04:19:17
Wilk Wilkinson
let's start with you.
00:04:19:17 - 00:04:24:05
Wilk Wilkinson
Tell me or more specifically, tell the DTH listeners, what is it,
00:04:24:05 - 00:04:34:17
Wilk Wilkinson
about the work that we've been doing about our politically divided times that made the two of you decide to to join forces and write this,
00:04:34:17 - 00:04:35:19
Wilk Wilkinson
what
00:04:35:19 - 00:04:39:10
Wilk Wilkinson
by all rights, is going to be an incredibly important book,
00:04:39:10 - 00:04:40:10
Wilk Wilkinson
for our time.
00:04:40:12 - 00:04:50:12
Beth Malow
Well. Let's start. Well, this has been a labor of love and, I couldn't think of anybody else to write it with who would be so extraordinary. But,
00:04:50:12 - 00:05:08:08
Beth Malow
Doug and I have been working together closely since I moved to Vermont last summer. From Tennessee. I've been able to go into the New Hampshire state legislature and work with him, and I'll talk more about that in a moment and workshops for the legislature.
00:05:08:14 - 00:05:41:19
Beth Malow
And we've also done workshops for the community. These are Braver Angels workshops, which I know you're very familiar with. It's it's out of that work. We've realized that there's a hunger that people have for learning how to work together better and cross those divides that are just so toxic right now in our lives. That really motivated me. And when Doug asked me and invited me to join the project to say, absolutely yes, I'm I'm thrilled to be part of this.
00:05:41:20 - 00:05:43:21
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah, super excited about that. Because
00:05:43:21 - 00:05:45:16
Wilk Wilkinson
there is a hunger. So, Doug,
00:05:45:16 - 00:06:01:20
Wilk Wilkinson
why why don't you kind of expand on that for me? What? Tell me about this hunger. What have you been seeing up there in the New England area? As far as a hunger for for finding a resolution or working on these toxic, polarized times.
00:06:01:21 - 00:06:08:07
Doug Teschner
Well, let me just step back a little bit. Go back to Gettysburg, the convention. We had a Braver Angel convention, which,
00:06:08:07 - 00:06:27:01
Doug Teschner
you know, was actually two summers ago. And, you know, at that opening session, we were asked, why are you here? And I wrote down on my card, I'm here because I worry that my grandchildren are not going to enjoy the benefits of this country that I've had, and that it's sort of been a real motivator for me.
00:06:27:01 - 00:06:39:08
Doug Teschner
I mean, I'm not getting any younger. I suppose I could be just having a quiet retirement, but I've been doing this very meaningful work. And I looked at where, what can we do? What can I do to step up? And I sort of made a,
00:06:39:08 - 00:06:42:10
Doug Teschner
a pledge, I guess you would say I'm not really the sort of guy.
00:06:42:12 - 00:06:55:12
Doug Teschner
There's a lot of New Year's resolutions, but I did one at the end of 2023. I said, I'm going to write a book. And I started off thinking this wasn't going to be so difficult. I've done it a few months. And,
00:06:55:12 - 00:07:02:12
Doug Teschner
but from the beginning, I wanted to reach out to other people, other partners and, and other great range of folks.
00:07:02:14 - 00:07:03:00
Doug Teschner
And,
00:07:03:00 - 00:07:03:09
Doug Teschner
Beth,
00:07:03:09 - 00:07:08:14
Doug Teschner
joined me partway through the effort about the time she moved up here. And,
00:07:08:14 - 00:07:13:04
Doug Teschner
she's just a great teammate, but, you know, I'm just concerned where
00:07:13:04 - 00:07:23:11
Doug Teschner
where are we going? And I think the challenge for us and braver angels and other people that are concerned about this is how do we broaden the message, how do we create a national movement?
00:07:23:13 - 00:07:46:21
Doug Teschner
You know, we've been very successful in Braver Angels with workshops and alliance chapters. But how do we take it farther? How do we get more people involved? How do we touch into sort of the the pain people are feeling out there? And, you know, when we started writing the book, we were thinking about we want to get help to if we want to appeal to people that make our country better.
00:07:46:23 - 00:08:06:22
Doug Teschner
But as we get into it more, we so so let's wait a minute. Let's step back. Let's help people deal with their relationships. We know that people are struggling with just the people that they know and their family members. And you know, that wonderful family politics workshop that Braver Angels has. But I, I don't think it gets emphasized enough.
00:08:07:00 - 00:08:18:10
Doug Teschner
I said, let's appeal to people's self-interest, never mind getting them to help save the country. And then we took it. We were as we were writing, we got it, took it, and down to another level, which was which was,
00:08:18:10 - 00:08:26:12
Doug Teschner
how about people's mental health? I mean, you know how people are so stressed out right now about politics and, you know, let's try to help people.
00:08:26:12 - 00:08:45:04
Doug Teschner
They, you know, find a way to take a deep breath and step back. And what can we do about it? And and how can you feel better about it? So this is a huge challenge. We know that and you know that. That's why you're doing this podcast. Right. And which is we try to so we're trying to do our part with the book.
00:08:45:04 - 00:09:03:04
Doug Teschner
And as we talk to people. Yeah, I think people are hungry. People once are looking for something better. I think people are concerned. You know, one of the sources we tapped into is the Hidden Tribes report that talks about the, the extremes are the ones that are driving the political agenda.
00:09:03:04 - 00:09:08:09
Doug Teschner
But there's an exhausted majority out there that's not really getting enough attention.
00:09:08:11 - 00:09:08:17
Doug Teschner
And,
00:09:08:17 - 00:09:13:05
Doug Teschner
you know, we're trying to appeal to the exhausted majority. We're trying to appeal to everybody,
00:09:13:05 - 00:09:30:06
Doug Teschner
you know, even the people on the extremes, there has to be a better way to do this than demonizing people on the other side. But people I said majorities, too, are just kind of like this. We got gotta we got a picture in our book that people are just kind of got their hit their ears over there, their hands over their ears.
00:09:30:08 - 00:09:47:08
Doug Teschner
They're in there is people are yelling over them. You know, there's exhausted majority. And we can rise up this the majority say, wait a minute, we gotta find a better way. We gotta talk to our neighbors. So I think that's really the appeal to the book.
00:09:47:10 - 00:09:51:13
Wilk Wilkinson
And I think I think it's hugely important trying to figure.
00:09:51:13 - 00:09:56:11
Wilk Wilkinson
you know, that's that is the million dollar question. How do we get more people involved?
00:09:56:13 - 00:09:59:00
Wilk Wilkinson
How do we we get people interested in,
00:09:59:00 - 00:10:11:13
Wilk Wilkinson
in, in the, the idea of the work that we do because I find people are hungry for this, but they a lot of times they just they don't want to get involved. They want to stay away.
00:10:11:13 - 00:10:18:03
Wilk Wilkinson
the reason that they're in the middle, that isn't making all the noise is because they don't like all the noise.
00:10:18:03 - 00:10:22:18
Wilk Wilkinson
They don't like all the ugliness that they see on either side of the spectrum.
00:10:22:18 - 00:10:27:10
Wilk Wilkinson
You know, our friend, Manu Meel from Bridge USA talks about the hopeful majority.
00:10:27:10 - 00:10:35:13
Wilk Wilkinson
But but I think a lot of that hopeful majority is hopeful. But they're exhausted and they don't want any part of the ugliness and the toxicity,
00:10:35:13 - 00:10:37:01
Wilk Wilkinson
the ones.
00:10:37:03 - 00:10:50:00
Wilk Wilkinson
And then the other thing you talk about their Doug is, is, is how those people on either end of the spectrum or the really toxic ones, and those are the ones that I talk about as being so involved in,
00:10:50:00 - 00:11:03:02
Wilk Wilkinson
using for fear, outrage and grievance as these, these this model for keeping people scared and mad and aggrieved over whether it be some real or perceived grievance.
00:11:03:08 - 00:11:27:12
Wilk Wilkinson
But they have an uncanny ability. These outrage entrepreneurs and grievance grifters on either side, because it's certainly by no means is it exclusive to one side or the other, no matter who's telling you what. But they have this uncanny ability to to whip up people's fear and outrage. So, Beth, talk to me a little bit about that because,
00:11:27:12 - 00:11:28:20
Wilk Wilkinson
That's the million dollar question.
00:11:28:20 - 00:11:49:03
Beth Malow
Go for it. Yeah, well, just like we have the exhausted majority image in our book, we all are super excited. We just, talked to our graphic design person about our conflict entrepreneur or outrage entrepreneur or whatever you want to call it.
00:11:49:03 - 00:11:58:14
Beth Malow
We are going to have a crocodile with eating or attempting to chomp on the American flag, and we just can't wait.
00:11:58:14 - 00:12:07:14
Beth Malow
We are super pumped about how every time we introduce conflict entrepreneur, those forces that you alluded to
00:12:07:14 - 00:12:10:22
Beth Malow
that are driving us apart and stirring up trouble,
00:12:10:22 - 00:12:34:12
Beth Malow
we will be including that image because we we want it to be a little playful. We want it to be a little bit funny, but it really is quite serious. And Amanda, Ripley wrote the book High Conflict talks about the conflict entrepreneurs and the idea that, I actually think that this is the way forward.
00:12:34:12 - 00:12:52:22
Beth Malow
Americans want to believe what they see. They want. We're we're a rugged individualist. We want to think for ourselves, and we don't want people mucking with us, whether it be outside foreign countries, right, like China and Russia
00:12:52:22 - 00:12:56:00
Beth Malow
or other forces like social media.
00:12:56:00 - 00:13:03:21
Beth Malow
There's there's forces on both sides. I think we would agree, not just on the left or the right, but really both sides.
00:13:03:21 - 00:13:34:10
Beth Malow
And then even foreign countries that are just trying to stir up travel and stir up division. And we're better than that as Americans. And that's one of the themes that we revisit again and again throughout this book. Yeah. Whether it's telling our personal stories and how we've overcome those people who were or forces that were trying to stir up trouble, or how you can be, for example, a better consumer of what you read about in the news.
00:13:34:12 - 00:13:46:12
Beth Malow
We really want to empower our readers to think for themselves and say, I'm better than this, and I can transform this time.
00:13:46:14 - 00:14:11:23
Wilk Wilkinson
Absolutely. And I want to I want to expand on that, because I do think as Americans, we are better than that. I do think as Americans we are so much better than what we're seeing from the loudest voices, whether they be the loud voices in politics or the loud voices in the media or the loud voices that that have become so popular in social media,
00:14:12:00 - 00:14:21:15
Wilk Wilkinson
each one of those things, in my opinion, represent such a small segment of who we are.
00:14:21:17 - 00:14:27:04
Wilk Wilkinson
And unfortunately, Doug, we are not being
00:14:27:04 - 00:14:34:18
Wilk Wilkinson
accurately represented as Americans by those loudest voices.
00:14:34:18 - 00:14:41:14
Wilk Wilkinson
We are we are being shown to be something that we are not because they are the ones that get the most airtime. Talk a bit about that.
00:14:41:19 - 00:14:49:17
Doug Teschner
Yeah. Well, we know from our Braver Angels workshops, you get people who are on different sides in a room in the head with the right kind of,
00:14:49:17 - 00:15:03:00
Doug Teschner
for the right kind of design and the right kind of conversation. People walk away and say, oh, we have a lot more in common than we thought. We always get that when people come to those workshops.
00:15:03:02 - 00:15:11:20
Doug Teschner
And what we've really tried to talk about in the book is getting people to kind of step back and say, wait a minute, how are we being manipulated?
00:15:11:20 - 00:15:23:03
Doug Teschner
By these conflict entrepreneurs, by people who are making money or power, by trying to divide us. And that's why I like that. We like that image of eating the American flag.
00:15:23:05 - 00:15:27:20
Doug Teschner
These people are not doing this for the country. They're doing it for themselves.
00:15:27:22 - 00:15:28:20
Wilk Wilkinson
Right? Thatās right.
00:15:28:22 - 00:15:42:15
Doug Teschner
And so a big part of this is getting people to sort of say, wait a minute, I need to be a little more reflective of what I'm seeing when I'm watching. You know, we talked. We have a long chapter touching about all the causes of, of,
00:15:42:15 - 00:15:46:13
Doug Teschner
of this polarization, of which there are many. But I think the,
00:15:46:13 - 00:15:56:06
Doug Teschner
the, the technology aspect, the conflict entrepreneurs and the way the social media works is the algorithms that push people apart, that attract the most extreme stuff.
00:15:56:06 - 00:16:07:07
Doug Teschner
And that's what you keep seeing in your feed. And it plays on fears. Like you said, it's playing on our worst instincts and it is just so dangerous.
00:16:07:07 - 00:16:12:23
Doug Teschner
Another thing we're really trying to emphasize in the book is getting people to sort of step back and think about,
00:16:12:23 - 00:16:16:06
Doug Teschner
their own personal values, what's really important
00:16:16:06 - 00:16:32:02
Doug Teschner
to you and who you are, and then ask them to think a little bit about the people who voted on the other side, maybe make a list of the characteristics of what they think about those people, and then kind of compare the value list to how they're thinking about other people.
00:16:32:04 - 00:17:01:10
Doug Teschner
And I think people would most people would, would step back and say, wait a minute, maybe I'm not living up to my values. When I think about the people on the other side of politics. So the lot of this is self-reflection and, and, you know, looking within yourself, digging deep within yourself, these are and reflect on what we're seeing and how how this media environment and social media environment and these conflict entrepreneurs, how it's all playing on us and, and
00:17:01:10 - 00:17:05:23
Doug Teschner
and then then of course, we gotta give people hope that, okay, what am I going to do about it?
00:17:06:04 - 00:17:09:18
Doug Teschner
But it starts with that inner work and that inner reflection.
00:17:09:20 - 00:17:14:12
Beth Malow
Yeah. So what we're going to do, I think are critical.
00:17:14:14 - 00:17:15:14
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah, absolutely.
00:17:15:14 - 00:17:25:14
Wilk Wilkinson
I and that's the thing, right. Is, is be part of the solution instead of being part of the problem. And, and Doug, I want to go back to something that you said right in the intro and,
00:17:25:14 - 00:17:31:12
Wilk Wilkinson
and, and kind of have you both play on this a little bit because, it's something that is so dearly important to me.
00:17:31:18 - 00:17:44:12
Wilk Wilkinson
Doug, you talked about, you know, leaving the world or a better world for your grandkids. And and, I mean, I know you're a parent and a grandparent, Beth. I know you're a parent, and and I'm a parent, and
00:17:44:12 - 00:18:01:10
Wilk Wilkinson
one of the reasons that I started doing this podcast and started doing the work that I do with Braver Angels is because I knew that the toxicity that that I once engaged in was not doing anything to make the world a better place.
00:18:01:12 - 00:18:10:14
Wilk Wilkinson
I look around and I often wonder, I try not to ascribe motives to people anymore in, in the things that that they do or the things that they say.
00:18:10:14 - 00:18:26:14
Wilk Wilkinson
But it's really hard to look at some of these people that are doing and saying the things that they are doing insane, and believe that they have any other motivation than when, like what you said, Doug, is they're doing it to benefit themselves, not to benefit the country.
00:18:26:16 - 00:18:42:15
Wilk Wilkinson
It hurts me to see that there are so many people out there that are willing to just completely, shed themselves of any responsibility when it comes to the humanity of others or what's going to become of our country if we continue to
00:18:42:15 - 00:18:55:15
Wilk Wilkinson
say and do the things that they do. We see it in politics. And that's why I often say that those who represent us are often not the best of us, because the things that they say and do are not something that's going to going to produce something positive.
00:18:55:17 - 00:19:16:16
Wilk Wilkinson
Talk to me, Beth, and and then you can play on this too, Doug. But but being part of the solution and we will definitely get into, you know, the solutions that you guys talk about in your book, Beyond and Beyond the Politics of Contempt, what you guys are doing with your Substack together across differences, these things are hugely important.
00:19:16:22 - 00:19:34:16
Wilk Wilkinson
And when it comes to being part of the solution instead of part of the problem, there are way too many people out there falling short. Whether it's intentional or not, I don't know. I can't pretend to believe. I know what everybody's motivations are, but but we can see what the results are. And as our friend John Wood Jr. says,
00:19:34:16 - 00:19:42:02
Wilk Wilkinson
toxic polarization is is the one problem that ensures other all the other problems will not be solved.
00:19:42:04 - 00:19:50:19
Wilk Wilkinson
So how do we become part of the solution instead of so many who have who have definitely made a home, making it part of making themselves part of the problem?
00:19:50:21 - 00:19:53:16
Beth Malow
Well, I think that there are
00:19:53:16 - 00:19:56:00
Beth Malow
some of us who
00:19:56:00 - 00:19:56:19
Beth Malow
are not
00:19:56:19 - 00:20:03:08
Beth Malow
necessarily driving the conflict, but are getting caught up in the conflict, and
00:20:03:08 - 00:20:17:02
Beth Malow
we refer to them as conflict enablers. And it's so easy to be in that category. I mean, I think I've been in that category for sure at certain times in my life. It's often driven by fear itself.
00:20:17:03 - 00:20:31:21
Beth Malow
Yeah, yeah, it's often driven by fear. It's driven by a sense of wanting to belong to a group we call them. Well, you know, Monica Guzman talks about the silos and all the siloing, and I feel that,
00:20:31:21 - 00:20:35:13
Beth Malow
that is something that we definitely address in the book. So,
00:20:35:13 - 00:20:39:16
Beth Malow
that is when Doug was saying, reflecting and starting with yourself.
00:20:39:16 - 00:20:46:09
Beth Malow
And how do you feel about people who might have voted for different candidate in the last election? That's,
00:20:46:09 - 00:20:51:04
Beth Malow
a very big focus of our group. And I'm sorry, of our book.
00:20:51:04 - 00:21:00:09
Beth Malow
So really reflecting and I try to include a lot of stories, personal stories about how we've learned to,
00:21:00:09 - 00:21:06:20
Beth Malow
see humanity in others. I think that's just really, really important.
00:21:06:21 - 00:21:34:14
Beth Malow
I think that is the first step to recognize that you may be a conflict enabler. It's not fun to think about that. But it's it's very possible. And if a light bulb can go off and we can say, hey, I think I just read about myself, then that's the first step to change it. And if you change the people around, you can change.
00:21:34:14 - 00:21:35:06
Beth Malow
It's like,
00:21:35:06 - 00:21:42:10
Beth Malow
learning to depolarize not just for yourself, but your entire peer group. That's very powerful.
00:21:42:12 - 00:22:05:14
Wilk Wilkinson
That that self-reflection is huge. And and, Doug, you can talk a little bit about this, but that circle of influence. So like Beth is talking about, once you start to depolarize yourself and you start feeling and seeing the things that you've done to enable this kind of thing, it's amazing how you'll start to see the people within your circle change with that.
00:22:05:16 - 00:22:19:18
Doug Teschner
Yeah, you know, it's so much us, you know, us versus them. Culture is sort of become so dominant. And if you're not us, you're then, you know, we talk about this actually we got we had we were on a podcast with a big group, a big,
00:22:19:18 - 00:22:34:10
Doug Teschner
a big group anti-Trump group called rise for freedom. There were 768 people on the zoom from a couple of weeks ago, but the yeah, they asked us to come and talk about how to talk to people you disagree with.
00:22:34:12 - 00:22:43:21
Doug Teschner
And I was a little skeptical going into that meeting. But, you know, people from a lot of those people I was trying to keep up with, they can imagine what it's like keeping up with the
00:22:43:21 - 00:22:53:16
Doug Teschner
the comments segment, 768 people. But a lot of the people were taking it in. And, you know, we're trying to appeal to people, okay, do you want to be an activist?
00:22:53:16 - 00:23:06:01
Doug Teschner
You want to go protest? And we're saying, yeah, that's fine, but can you do it in a way that doesn't invite people to your side or welcomes people to your side?
00:23:06:01 - 00:23:28:13
Doug Teschner
You know, somebody told me a story. I didn't didn't have it in the book because I couldn't quite remember who told it to me. But they were at some kind of a protest, and a guy in a pickup truck drove up and he had a bumper sticker for the I forget what it was, abortion, what it was, and it was clear the guy kind of wanted to talk to the people, and they started belittling him, and he drove on, you know, how do
00:23:28:13 - 00:23:49:14
Doug Teschner
you how do you how do you bring people over? You know, if you want to be an activist, fine. But do it as a bridge, build a bridge, doing it a way that brings bridge building. And we're a little concerned about some of the activists. We're seeing some of the groups right now. Are they doing that or is it just let's just bad mouth the other people.
00:23:49:16 - 00:24:10:04
Doug Teschner
You know, and and even in The Hidden Tribes, you part, they talk about the people on the extremes. They want to vanquish the other side, though sometimes when I have conversations with people, with people, I said, what's your goal? Right? What's your goal? And, and, and it kind of brings them up a little short, you know, like, do you want civil war?
00:24:10:05 - 00:24:22:12
Doug Teschner
Is that what you want? Right. I mean, and or if you want to bring people to your side, you're not going to get there by shaming them or telling them they're stupid or, you know, telling they're ignorant.
00:24:22:12 - 00:24:31:16
Doug Teschner
But this is what we see. And all the time it's very dangerous. And if people can't, you know, so. So what's important things got to be?
00:24:31:20 - 00:24:42:05
Doug Teschner
Look, start with yourself. Look at yourself and you know, we all make assumptions about other people. And it's just human nature. You see somebody and what they're wearing and what whatever.
00:24:42:05 - 00:24:51:21
Doug Teschner
And, and and there's also a part of the problem here, as we see it, is, you know, there's a decline in basic kindness in how people treat each other.
00:24:51:21 - 00:25:10:09
Doug Teschner
You know, it used to be pretty rare to see somebody give you a finger on the highway. Yeah, but but people do that more now and it's, it's become it's become more and more socially acceptable. And so there's a bigger issue. It's bigger than politics. And this is we're interested in,
00:25:10:09 - 00:25:15:21
Doug Teschner
Robert Putnam's work, bowling alone. And also it's the most recent book, The Upswing.
00:25:15:22 - 00:25:19:08
Doug Teschner
He talked about. He talked about a decline in,
00:25:19:08 - 00:25:37:16
Doug Teschner
the Gilded Age. That's interesting. I've seen that term come across, but that was sort of a period, kind of a dark period in this country in the late 1800s. But he said from there there was an upswing up to about to about 1960. And then this current situation where there was when the decline started.
00:25:37:16 - 00:25:44:12
Doug Teschner
So what are we going to do to create another upswing? It's more than politics. It's how we see it. You treat each other.
00:25:44:14 - 00:25:46:15
Beth Malow
Yes. We bring up a lot of themes.
00:25:46:15 - 00:26:06:06
Beth Malow
As Doug said in the book, we we don't just tell people what we think. What are is happening, and we don't just tell them what they should do, but we we really try to bring up a lot of thought leaders and themes. Like Putnam, I like the work braver angels is doing with the citizen led solutions.
00:26:06:08 - 00:26:10:04
Beth Malow
That Steve Saltwick and others are taking a lead on,
00:26:10:04 - 00:26:22:10
Beth Malow
community. I even have something on the science communication and the work we're doing with the Truth & trust project. Wilk, it's, it's we're trying to use as many examples as we can and,
00:26:22:10 - 00:26:24:04
Beth Malow
to show people,
00:26:24:04 - 00:26:33:12
Beth Malow
a way forward that will relate to them. And I just want to say one quick thing about their activism is not incompatible with bridge building.
00:26:33:12 - 00:26:51:09
Beth Malow
If you really want to be an effective activist, you need to be able to understand where the people who disagree with you are coming from. That's how you know, I don't want to have an opportunity to influence them. You have to understand them first, and they have to feel like they've been heard.
00:26:51:09 - 00:26:57:19
Beth Malow
So I'm a big believer that bridge building and activism go hand in hand, regardless of whether you're,
00:26:57:19 - 00:27:04:01
Beth Malow
it's I don't know, local government issues or more, national issues.
00:27:04:01 - 00:27:06:13
Wilk Wilkinson
and I agree, I, you know, I think the,
00:27:06:13 - 00:27:09:23
Wilk Wilkinson
Doug makes an incredible point when he brings up the example of,
00:27:09:23 - 00:27:22:19
Wilk Wilkinson
of the guy in the pickup truck driver drives up to the, the protesters and has a genuine desire to, you know, understand what these people are. What is your cause? What are what are you trying to,
00:27:22:19 - 00:27:24:05
Wilk Wilkinson
to promote here?
00:27:24:05 - 00:27:26:17
Wilk Wilkinson
And when they start to belittle him.
00:27:26:17 - 00:27:27:01
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah.
00:27:27:01 - 00:28:07:06
Wilk Wilkinson
I mean, driving away is is the is the perfect example, right? Because nobody's going to just sit there. I talk a lot about people, you know, once once you belittle them, either belittle their opinion or belittle them or whatever their ears slam shut. I mean, so often I'll ask the question of people, whether it be somebody on the left asking of people on the right or somebody on the right asking of people on the left, how often do you run into somebody on the other side who can accurately represent your position on a particular topic in a way that you would agree, and very seldom do
00:28:07:06 - 00:28:19:00
Wilk Wilkinson
I get an answer of, oh, of course, yeah, I run into them all the time. It's just not a thing. It's because far too often people, when they try to have one of these conversations,
00:28:19:00 - 00:28:19:13
Wilk Wilkinson
they
00:28:19:13 - 00:28:24:02
Wilk Wilkinson
are immediately attacked or they're demeaned or belittled for,
00:28:24:02 - 00:28:29:23
Wilk Wilkinson
being one of them, you know, going to the US versus them thing, one of the greatest examples
00:28:29:23 - 00:28:30:15
Wilk Wilkinson
of,
00:28:30:15 - 00:28:36:05
Wilk Wilkinson
this whole thing about making assumptions like you were talking about, Doug, is Monica Guzman's,
00:28:36:05 - 00:28:36:16
Wilk Wilkinson
statement.
00:28:36:16 - 00:29:04:18
Wilk Wilkinson
Those who are underrepresented in our lives will be overrepresented in our mind, in our imaginations. We begin to make assumptions about people we truly know nothing about, and we make them out to be some kind of boogeyman. And instead of actually getting to know who they are. And then I always I, you know, we talked about that pro humanity stance earlier before where where people forget that these are people, these are human beings.
00:29:04:23 - 00:29:34:08
Wilk Wilkinson
They have kids and grandkids like we do. Right? They have something to fight for and they probably have a they have justify in some way what they're doing, what they're saying. But sometimes we just need to give them the solution and show them how important it is to listen with genuine curiosity, because if they do not and they go on the attack right away, that other person, their ears slam shut.
00:29:34:08 - 00:29:47:16
Wilk Wilkinson
They aren't listening anymore. Do you actually want to accomplish something with this conversation, or do you just want it to shut down with no resolution whatsoever? And probably end in a worse position than you started with?
00:29:47:18 - 00:30:12:04
Beth Malow
Absolutely. And I would argue that if you can figure out how to connect with someone and as you say, they feel heard, they've heard you, they may disagree with you, but they've heard you. I feel like you can solve any problem. It's it's cutting through that initial demonizing, I guess, is one word.
00:30:12:04 - 00:30:17:11
Beth Malow
Once you can see each other as human beings, then I think you can.
00:30:17:11 - 00:30:22:16
Beth Malow
You can share your perspectives and you can solve any problem. I really feel that way.
00:30:22:16 - 00:30:29:10
Wilk Wilkinson
Absolutely, absolutely. So, so as we wrap up our time here together, Beth and Doug,
00:30:29:10 - 00:30:31:08
Wilk Wilkinson
what I want you to do is I want you to,
00:30:31:08 - 00:30:34:20
Wilk Wilkinson
I guess finish off, I'm going to give each one of you,
00:30:34:20 - 00:30:45:21
Wilk Wilkinson
a final word here, but but finish off by telling the d rate the hate listeners and all our friends at Braver Angels and everybody who might just be hearing about this for the very first time.
00:30:45:23 - 00:30:48:06
Wilk Wilkinson
What is each one of your,
00:30:48:06 - 00:30:53:02
Wilk Wilkinson
biggest takeaway that that you want people to take away from this book?
00:30:53:02 - 00:31:01:07
Wilk Wilkinson
Beyond the politics of contempt, practical steps to build positive relationships and divided times. And then, of course, people can obviously,
00:31:01:07 - 00:31:05:12
Wilk Wilkinson
visit your Substack two together across differences. So, Doug, let me,
00:31:05:12 - 00:31:09:22
Wilk Wilkinson
let me start with, well, actually, Beth, I'll start with you and then Doug, I'll give you the final word.
00:31:09:23 - 00:31:12:09
Wilk Wilkinson
Since we started with Beth in the beginning. How's that sound?
00:31:12:11 - 00:31:37:21
Beth Malow
I feel that if you want to learn how to just be better in your own life as. As Doug said, you want a better physical health. Mental health? You want to learn how to get along with your uncle. So this is an important book. If you even want to go a step further and make a difference for our country.
00:31:37:23 - 00:32:07:10
Beth Malow
It's a really important book, and we do it not just by laying out the problem, but by giving you concrete solutions and telling a lot of stories from our own experiences so that you can understand where you're at and where you want to be. Reflect on your values and then share the book with other people so that they can make a difference in the world and in their lives Also...
00:32:07:10 - 00:32:10:07
Wilk Wilkinson
Beautiful, Doug.
00:32:10:09 - 00:32:37:14
Doug Teschner
Yeah, me. It starts with hope. You know, we're trying to give people hope. You know, people are so discouraged and down. But there's hope. There's hope for our country. And we give concrete steps of what you can do to, to, to to bring that hope to life. And and we're not we're not saying that's easy or simple, but, our book will be out this summer where we're really pushing on it.
00:32:37:15 - 00:32:45:18
Doug Teschner
We were hoping for the 4th of July. Not we might not make the 4th of July, but we hope to at least make it the month of July. And we have the Substack,
00:32:45:18 - 00:32:54:15
Doug Teschner
If you go to Together Across Differences, you'll find it. We'd love it. We got more than 600 subscribers who are sharing, different ideas, themes that are in the book.
00:32:54:15 - 00:33:01:14
Doug Teschner
It's free. I mean, yeah, there's an option for paid if you want to help with the cost, but that's not the most important thing is just to be on there.
00:33:01:14 - 00:33:09:19
Doug Teschner
As a free subscriber, we'd love to connect with you and and have you be part of this journey with us.
00:33:09:20 - 00:33:11:15
Wilk Wilkinson
That's wonderful. So the,
00:33:11:15 - 00:33:15:16
Wilk Wilkinson
the Substack is together now.substack.com,
00:33:15:16 - 00:33:21:14
Wilk Wilkinson
together across differences is the name of the Substack here with Beth Malow and Doug Teschner,
00:33:21:14 - 00:33:38:02
Wilk Wilkinson
good friends of mine from Braver Angels, the upcoming book that will be out this summer. Beyond the Politics of Contempt, Practical Steps to Build Positive Relationships and Divided times. And so grateful for both of you for the work that you're doing for the work that we do at Braver Angels.
00:33:38:03 - 00:33:38:14
Wilk Wilkinson
And,
00:33:38:14 - 00:33:42:10
Wilk Wilkinson
looking forward to the book. Thank you so much to both of you, Beth and Doug. Thank you.
00:33:42:15 - 00:33:43:11
Beth Malow
Thank you.
00:33:43:11 - 00:34:03:05
Wilk Wilkinson
Friends. If there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. Share it with your friends, share it far and wide. And of course, if you haven't done so already, be sure to subscribe right from our website so you can get the Derate The Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week.
00:34:03:06 - 00:34:19:06
Wilk Wilkinson
So this is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything that you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make each and every day the day that you want it to be. If there is something that you would like to share with me, you can catch me on most social media platforms.
00:34:19:11 - 00:34:45:00
Wilk Wilkinson
Or you can email me directly. Wilk@WilksWorldcom. With that, my friends, I am going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
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