Episode 289 | Guest: Jim Robb, Vice President of Alliances at Numbers USA
In this episode, Wilk Wilkinson sits down with Jim Robb, a co-founder and longtime leader at Numbers USA, the nation’s largest grassroots immigration-policy organization. For nearly three decades, Jim has been at the center of America’s immigration debate—pioneering online citizen activism and advocating for reforms that prioritize both fairness and compassion.
Now, as Vice President of Alliances, Jim leads Numbers USA’s partnership with Braver Angels on the Citizens Commission on Immigration, a groundbreaking bipartisan effort to bring adversaries together for civil, informed, and solution-driven dialogue.
🗣️ What We Discuss
The founding story and mission of Numbers USA
How economic incentives and employer exploitation shape illegal immigration
The truth behind the “jobs Americans won’t do” narrative
Why persuasion—not just compromise—is the missing ingredient in modern politics
How the Braver Angels Citizens Commission on Immigration unites advocates from all sides to seek actionable policy solutions
The role of Congress and the American public in shaping reform
🤝 Key Takeaways
✅ Immigration reform must balance compassion with responsibility. ✅ Employer accountability is critical—exploitation drives the problem. ✅ “Americans won’t do those jobs” is a myth created by distorted labor markets. ✅ Real progress begins when persuasion replaces outrage. ✅ Bipartisan frameworks like the Citizens Commission prove common ground is possible.
Immigration touches the economy, culture, and conscience of America. In a political climate that rewards division, this conversation models how data, empathy, and principled dialogue can coexist. Wilk and Jim reveal that beneath the noise, Americans share more values than we realize—and that true reform starts when we sit down, listen, and persuade rather than attack.
The world is a better place if we are better people. That begins with each of us as individuals. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for all you’ve got. Make every day the day that you want it to be!
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The Derate The Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels — America’s largest grassroots, cross-partisan organization working toward civic renewal and bridging partisan divides. Learn more: BraverAngels.org
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*The views expressed by Wilk, his guest hosts &/or guests on the Derate The Hate podcast are their own and should not be attributed to any organization they may otherwise be affiliated with.
Show Transcript
Transcript is AI Generated and may contain errors.
[00:00:00:00] Wilk Wilkinson: Immigration is one of the hottest and hardest topics in American politics. But what happens when people who've spent decades fighting on opposite sides finally sit down together? In this episode, we explore how numbers USA and Braver Angels are proving that persuasion, not outrage, just might be the key to fixing America's immigration debate. Welcome back, my friends, for the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The D Rate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross. partisan organization working towards civic renewal. This podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ. Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the Hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Share it with a friend and visit Braver Angels.org to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partisan divide. Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it. This week, we're diving into one of the most polarizing and persistent issues in American life immigration. My guest is Jim Robb, vice president of alliances at numbers USA, the world's largest member. Immigration policy organization. Nearly three decades ago, Jim helped launch numbers USA and pioneered one of the first online activism tools that allowed everyday citizens to send millions of faxes and later emails to Congress advocating for immigration reform. Today, Jim's work has taken a new direction. Through his collaboration with Braver Angels on the Citizens Commission on Immigration, this initiative brings together leaders and organizations that have long been adversaries. Groups from across the political spectrum to have honest, constructive conversations aimed at real reform. In our conversation, Jim and I talk about the economic and moral complexities of immigration, the exploitation of illegal labor, and the myths around jobs Americans won't do, and how bipartisan dialog might finally pave a path towards meaningful solutions. It's a powerful reminder that persuasion and understanding are still possible, even on the most divisive of topics. Let's jump into it with my friend Jim Robb. Here we go. Jim. Robb, welcome to the Derate The Hate podcast. So good to see you again, man. [00:03:57:23] Jim Robb: Thanks. Wilk, it's great to be here. [00:04:00:10] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. I've, I've been looking forward to this since our last conversation, Jim, because, one of the, one of the hottest topics that that people are talking about right now in terms of polarizing topics, I think is, is immigration. I mean, it was obviously, it was obviously one of the biggest things that that President Trump ran on. He talked about it in his first term, certainly talked about it, rolling into into this administration now. And, and then I, I would contend even as important as that, it's one of the biggest things that we talked about at Braver Angels at the at the 2024 National Convention. It was the, the topic that people kind of gravitated to as the main topic, which led into what I want to talk about first. First, I just want. So for people who aren't familiar with Jim Robbb, he is the vice president of alliances at, numbers USA. Numbers USA is an organization in Washington, DC that does a lot of work. Regarding immigration. And so I thought you'd be a perfect person to bring in, especially since numbers USA and Braver Angels are kind of working together. On on immigration. And I'll have you give the details of that, Jim, because I don't know exactly what, the details are when it comes to the Citizens Commission on Immigration. I saw some interesting press on it at one point, that I thought was a little unfair. But let's start there. Let's start with what is. Well, what is your job as the VP of Alliances at Numbers USA? And how did that how does that tie into what Braver Angels is doing with the Citizens Commission on Immigration? [00:05:52:11] Jim Robb: Yeah. Well, thanks for the question. So 29 years ago, in 1996, numbers USA went on the air, so to speak, as a website that, that was arguing for, a reformulating of immigration policy to modernize it and make it, more in along the interest of the American citizen. So the, the it's been the immigration is really set up to fill the to fulfill the interest of, of companies, sometimes large companies or universities or people who, who want immigrant labor for various reasons or for cheap hires, people who want to pay less money. And and then, of course, for immigrants themselves, it it's a it's a great deal for them. But, a lot of Americans have been displaced by immigrant labor coming in that's undercut them financially. And there's been some other, consequences. Plus, you got to be looking at a policy as big as immigration every few years to to see that is, it is the policies we passed in the last century. Are they still applicable today? They still help us today. So we we've, formed this organization and the we it was internet and we are an internet based organization. We were one of the first, politically oriented organizations that was sort of all internet. And it was a few years before we even had lobbying in Washington. We were we were on what we were, what our initial mission was and continues to be. Our biggest mission is that we have, over a million people on our system that have signed up, and we send them information through email, text, and tell them what's going on in Washington and tell them, here's what they could say to their congressmen to ask for better policy demand action, that sort of thing. So we have people sending, over time, our, our members have sent over 50 million messages to Congress. And the early years, it was all faxes which are expensive to send, but we send them and, and, so, I've had every job at number two. I say, that I was involved in the early technology setting. Is all this up? I was involved for a long time in and recruiting new members. And then, and then our polling, our advertising, worked heavily in fundraising for a long time. But a couple of years ago, I got an offer to to, head up our new alliances effort. Well, okay, I loved that because I knew that one of the reasons we weren't getting any anything done on immigration policy was that the. We weren't getting the people in the room. Sure. And so what what has happened and what and most issues, is that you get like minded, members of Congress and you get group outside groups that sort of agree with you, and you try to roll over everybody else. This is what both sides do. Or there's more than two sides, but the various sides try to do. That's been the preferred method. As a result, because it takes a supermajority in the Senate to get any bill done. Very it's rare to get that. And the president lined up and the courts going along with it. So because we we have not done the spadework and the hard work of of persuasion, we talk about compromise, but people won't compromise when they think you're dead wrong. So we haven't done the work of persuading people about our point and trying to find common ground. So anyway, soon as I got this job as vice president for alliances, I started looking around for people who wanted to talk and including people that we've never talked to or who've never been in a room with. So, one of my friends, is a big volunteer and Braver Angels, and, she called me up and said, Jim, I in heard you're now vice president of alliances. I I've got a group for you that's perfect for numbers. It's perfect for you. It's called Braver Angels. So, without knowing much more about it than her recommendation, I went to the Gettysburg Convention, which is a couple of years. It was not this summer, but the summer before, actually two summers ago. [00:10:44:02] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. [00:10:44:18] Jim Robb: Right. And, I just instantly fell in love with these people because this is like. Oh, you mean Republicans and Democrats? I mean Republican like me and Democrats who are like, really liberal Democrats. We can sit down at a table and just say, oh, what are your views or your views? It's not touchy. It's not oh, you can't talk about it. It's it's not. We're going to get into a fist fight or start calling names or, or assume things about each other before we even know what our views are. Yeah, we're going to sit and talk about it calmly and in and, and it's like, oh, I found out, oh, there's like one Republican at the convention for every Democrat. Yeah. I said, I've never heard of anything like that. It had. [00:11:28:05] Wilk Wilkinson: And that would be a shock to your system coming from Washington DC. Right, right, right. [00:11:33:20] Jim Robb: Well, the environment here is that you got to make sure if you're a Republican, no Democrats are in the room with you and vice versa. So it's the opposite, right. That's the mutual world. Yeah. And I personally am a Republican. But we have a bipartisan organization, a bipartisan board of directors and staff. And, but our membership over time became more Republican because, the party split apart on immigration, like on every other issue. Right? So it's like, you know, 30 years ago when we started this, it's like there was lots of Democrats who agreed with us and and lots of Republicans who didn't. And but now it's it's kind of shifted. And so we got so by the time I took up this particular job two years ago, it was like, oh man, we can't, we can't. We have very few Democratic senators or members of the House that we're in regular contact with anymore. And the ones who were like the moderates who were on our side for the Democrat Party were defeated, basically, and replaced either by Republicans or by Liberal Democrats. So they they, you know, it. And so I said, we I got to start talking to people. So I found Braver Angels. And I said, I said to them, I said, hey, how about we get everybody in a room on immigration? People don't talk to each other. We're just formally fighting. And to see if we can work anything out. That's that's the idea I have. What do you think? And, and they, they fought really for me. They, they were looking for the issue to follow up on the trustworthy elections. Thing. And so at, at the 2024 convention in Kenosha, Wisconsin, there a formal vote of the entire membership who were present and there were delegates. Yeah. Voted overwhelmingly to make immigration the social policy issue that will be studied or the main policy should be studied for the next two years, at least. Yeah. And so we really, the Braver Angels got marshaled all its resources behind this thing. And we formed something called a Citizens Commission on Immigration. And we're nowhere near as Ice charter members. But so are organizations that are had been fighting for the very opposite stuff, organizations like Immigration Hub, the National Immigration Forum, the dream us people have been on the other side. We formerly were always fighting with the the Koch brothers network because they're Republicans, but they're they're high immigration people. So we were always clashing with them. And the US Chamber of Commerce always clash and Clash of Clans in Glasgow and for years, decades. And now because of this thing we've got, we've got the the Citizens Commission has a couple of has three levels. And as the, the grassroots level with, with no workshop. [00:14:31:11] Wilk Wilkinson: we find ourselves, at an impasse or arguing with people like the Koch brothers than these different organizations. And here now your your at break or with Braver Angels or Braver Angels is doing the Citizens Commission on Immigration and there's a different feel. So kind of take it. [00:14:50:02] Jim Robb: Yeah. So okay, so I sort of told the setup about who's in the room, etc. and it's like, oh, people. Everyone there says, oh, you know, nothing like this has ever happened before. We've never gotten everybody in the room because, you know, I the, my, my critique of why all these deals like the Senate Gang of Eight failed and all these big things and the immigration bills in Congress, it's because they didn't have enough people in the room. So they agreed with everybody. Even people who were in the room agreed with them. But then they had people like us that were not in the room and they said, hey, we like read the provisions of this bill. And it's like, hey, this is a no, this is no good. This is going to hurt Americans. We got to oppose it. So I, you know, it is a better idea just to get everybody in the room. And if you disagree, you disagree. But you you're not going to be surprisingly and and maybe we can find common ground. So yeah. So what we do is we, we, we have we have a, we have the local level of, of, of the Citizens Commission on Immigration, which is workshops and debates happening all across the country from braver angel members and participants. And then but then we have this, this Washington, centered, something called the Immigration Roundtable. And it's, it's all the leaders of the groups. And that and formally just shot rhetorical guns at each other. Including me, I mean, I've, I've been shooting away for decades, and, now we're eating together, drinking together, becoming friends. And we sit down and we talk and then we talk about, the issues. And it's suddenly it's not we're not as self-righteous, I mean, me included, not a self-righteous. It's like, well, this is the way we see it. How do you see it? And can we, can we find some common ground. And I'm finding already there's lots of common ground now. You never know till it's, you never know till it's over. Right. But it's but we're getting there and and then the third level thing is Congress, because the US Constitution gives dictatorial powers to the US Congress to set immigration policy. So the president only enforces, the courts only enforce, or they rather rule on legal questions. But the Congress makes the rules, not the state legislature. Congress. So, so, you know, we that's why I number two is I have been trying to try to influence Congress all these years. And so we're going to, we're going to present a report to the nation, main part of the nation is Congress. And in a couple of years or a year and a half, when we're when we're done with it. But we but my experience is the experience of others involved in this was that if you just slap a report on Congress's desk, no good. No, they have to think it's their idea in the first place. Sure. Right. You have to the you have to you have to be with them every step of the way. They have to be with you. So you have to go meeting with them. Here's where we are now. Here's the people involved in your district honored sir. And, can you come and join the local workshops, come and see what we're doing, will. And and and so then when it when there is a report, it's like, oh, they were looking forward to seeing the report. Yeah, I know about that. Sure. So that's, that's what the. Well yeah. They're involved. Yeah. So that's the that's the whole setup. What we do is we're, we're doing trying to find common ground with the big thing is that the two things are everyone's in the room right. Common ground with you. Right. [00:18:25:11] Wilk Wilkinson: It's a hugely important part. Right. And I think it is Braver Angels that's the the dynamic that Braver Angels introduces. You know, it's not like Braver Angels is introducing the policy. They're introducing the structure. They're introducing the framework by which you guys can actually get the voice of the people. [00:18:44:03] Jim Robb: Right for this thing. Right? That's right. Well that's right. So we're getting these we're getting the reports on the common ground, workshops on the points of agreement. And not all your listeners will be familiar with how the Common ground workshops work. But it's it's a group. Usually there's seven, seven and seven, seven Democrats and seven, they call them reds and blues and Braver Angels because, you know, but, dates. So it has to be equal on both sides and an impartial chairman. That and they go through and discuss a subject. Well, the subject to the next couple of years is immigration. Various aspects so that they and so they talk about various possible solutions to the problems and but the only ones that get past that room are ones that everyone in the room, not both sides, everyone in the room from both sides. [00:19:35:09] Wilk Wilkinson: Common ground. Three agreements from everybody in the room, right? [00:19:39:00] Jim Robb: It means unanimous points of agreement. So that this, even though they may not have all the information that we in the national level may see some polls and logic just because they didn't know about some stuff, because it's very complicated, it's very expert subject. But we're getting a lot of common sense coming up. Yeah. And a lot of people are saying some things that numbers USA has been saying it forever, like, let's make the federal E-Verify system, mandatory for every U.S employer. Well, that's a system that makes sure that people aren't forging documents and passing them off to the employer saying, hey, I have a right to work in this country and, you know, the employer without E-Verify, how do they check it? I have no way of checking that. No, that's somebody. [00:20:27:13] Wilk Wilkinson: Who's hired a lot of people myself. [00:20:29:11] Jim Robb: Yeah. Yeah. [00:20:30:03] Wilk Wilkinson: And had people working for me. That thing is, is beautiful and and I love the fact that it it does what it needs to do to ensure that you're not hiring illegals. I mean, it's it's the economy. [00:20:45:18] Jim Robb: And you get the benefit and you get the benefit of the doubt as an employer, if they find that someone game the system and pass off forged documents, the government could the system couldn't, couldn't put it, couldn't be covered, that they were fake. [00:20:59:08] Wilk Wilkinson: Or say. [00:20:59:22] Jim Robb: You're safe as long as you as long as you use the system with good faith and work trying to game it yourself. If the fraud was them and are you, you're completely held blameless. So yeah, I don't know why every employer doesn't use it now, except some want to use illegal immigration to undercut Americans. [00:21:18:01] Wilk Wilkinson: So let's talk a little bit about that, Jim, because I think that is that is one of the things that that drives me bonkers. I've said it for a while, and it's it way oversimplifies a complex topic. And I could just about guarantee you're going to agree on this. But I said for a long time, I can fix the immigration problem tomorrow. You know, being one of those those people and I just say, okay, any employer caught, exploiting an illegal immigrant for cheaper labor, whatever we find it. Fine. A half $1 million per employee. Whatever. It stops tomorrow. I know that's a huge oversimplification, but I think one of the biggest pRobblems that we face as a nation, with employers exploiting illegals for their gain and then dictating how we manage policy. I think that's a big part of the pRobblem. So like I said, my oversimplification is not, well, serious thing, but but. [00:22:18:23] Jim Robb: No, but it's actually there's a lot to that. They have you know, even even the Trump administration has a they're all in the way a lot of, poor illegal immigrants. But I only know of a couple of companies that have gotten in trouble. Right. Those are people who you can prove that they're you, don't they? If you can prove that they ignored the documents, or if you can prove that they systematically hired and that they so they could hire people below American rates. They they can they can they can give huge fines and jail time. And but it's rarely done. It's like, oh, it's like, you know, it's like it's something's bad on the, the antebellum southern plantation. You hold the slaves away, punish them. I said that the slave owners. So it's it's not right. It's not fair. And let's talk about, if you don't mind, the jobs Americans will or will not do. Right. Because it's not what people say. Yeah. Why do they do it? If you ask, if you ask someone who's who's been caught hiring illegally or just admitted to you, they're your friend. I've had hundreds of people admit to me they hire illegally, right? Because because I, I'm not a policeman. They know I work on immigration. So it's like, oh, man, we just can't find Americans. Well, I, I sat on a plane once with a guy whose job it was to go around the country and hire, hire, truck drivers, for companies that did shipping because they couldn't find, they couldn't find truck drivers. And he, he set them up with, foreign truck drivers mostly. He told me illegal, and he says, the problem is you just can't find a good 14, $15 an hour American trucker. And I'm listening to. And I'm saying, yeah, cause he's starving to death. If he does that job, he's gotta, like, he's away from his family. He's doing overnights at hotels. He's he's. If you. [00:24:21:23] Wilk Wilkinson: Look, you know. [00:24:22:13] Jim Robb: It's like. [00:24:23:01] Wilk Wilkinson: A lot of nights in a sleeper. [00:24:25:04] Jim Robb: Row, right. Well, and and it said you Americans can't work for those wages. No. Americans can't, live in a rooming house, an illegal rooming house. Where for in my county, Fairfax County, Virginia. Only four unrelated adults can live in a house together. Even that seems like a lot. But, they're houses that they find 12 and 15 unrelated people. It's a boarding house, and it's unsafe. They've got the the the doors nailed shot at the various doors to, they they go in there, they find they're there, they're ready to burn down. Like, that's illegal space heaters around. And and people are sleeping on the floor. Rats. And you know, it's it's horrible. But if you're desperate to get any job, you'll do that. But Americans can't get away with that. They can't get away with it. And and why should they? I mean, why should Americans have to live in conditions like that, if that's your competition? Sure. He worked for he worked for 12 for $13 an hour. Americans got to get $20 an hour to be a long distance trucker, or more to make it anything like, worth it. [00:25:34:08] Wilk Wilkinson: And more than that now. But yeah. [00:25:36:01] Jim Robb: More than that. More than that. More than that. Yeah, I'm being modest, but. And Americans have to have health insurance. You don't have health insurance. Guess what the bill collector knows how to find you in America. Well, if you're an illegal alien, you have no. Yeah, you may have no bank account and you've got no you've got no permanent address. They can't find you. So when you get sick, you just go to the hospital and go to the emergency room. That's why emergency rooms are always overcrowded. It's because illegal immigrants, just show up there instead of having their own doctor, so, Yeah. Well, so what are we. So, what we call this in my line of work is the privatization of profits and the socialization of costs. [00:26:19:23] Wilk Wilkinson: Privatization of profits and socialization of cost. Yeah, and that makes a lot of sense. I mean, we all end up footing the bill, in higher, taxes, higher health care costs, you know, any number of different things that are happening as a result of, of, of immigration and, and, and it really comes, down in my mind, Jim, to, in a lot of ways to to the exploitation. I mean, it is not, in my opinion, a, a truly humanitarian thing to to just say, okay, well, we're going to allow unfettered, eagle illegal immigration or try to provide services to people who. I mean, because what what is happening is exactly what you're talking about. People are living in, in horrible conditions. They're they're not. [00:27:13:01] Jim Robb: Paying. And very often, [00:27:14:16] Wilk Wilkinson: The way that they are, if they are paying into the system, they're not getting it back in the end. which is not one of these things, you know, because that's I know that's one of the arguments that we hear quite often is, well, some of these people that are using a fake I.D. or paying into Social Security and blah, blah, blah, and they'll never get that back. Well, that's not, I mean, that's not a that's not some virtuous thing to say. [00:27:37:20] Jim Robb: No. [00:27:38:03] Wilk Wilkinson: when we oh, it's so. [00:27:39:06] Jim Robb: That's I mean, that's no way to run a railroad. [00:27:41:16] Wilk Wilkinson: It's not. [00:27:42:05] Jim Robb: You know, there's no way. Let me tell you it. And let me talk a bit about jobs Americans won't do because, you know, this is you. People hear this more than anything else. Oh, we got to do it because job market just won't do those jobs. Well, hey, that means they won't do them at the illegal, and depressed prices that a flooded labor market with flooded with illegal labor and other people who may be legal, but they came in so poor right that they they'll work for anything. Okay, so here's how you disprove this. People say, how could you ever prove this? Some studies that you hear these things, somebody say this, but somebody say, I'll tell you, the only study you ever need is the state of West Virginia, which has 2% immigration, 2% of people and or or immigrant. Right. Sure. So who so what are the jobs Americans won't do? Hotel maid. They're all Native Americans in West Virginia. One of the other jobs. Roofer. All native West Virginians in West Virginia. What are the crop pickers? Well. [00:28:49:08] Wilk Wilkinson: Coal miners. Right? [00:28:50:12] Jim Robb: Yeah, yeah. They're there. Every job, every job, every American job. Yeah. Blue collar coloreds. [00:28:56:19] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. [00:28:57:03] Jim Robb: So, actually, what what really is meant by that statement is I can't find an American who will work as cheap as an illegal worker. [00:29:07:17] Wilk Wilkinson: Right. [00:29:08:12] Jim Robb: And that's all true. [00:29:09:08] Wilk Wilkinson: Statement. [00:29:09:19] Jim Robb: All it means that's the true statement. And it's, you know, there's this. And now in our 21st century, you've got a lot of new phraseology that's like, but you've heard this, saying the quiet part out loud, right? You've heard this. So the quiet part out loud is Americans do every job that, there is to be done in areas with low immigration. And it's like, oh, where you go to West Virginia and you find all these houses, but the roofs, there's no roofs because Americans won't do roofs. What? No. Right. You say, oh, who's going to pick our crops? Well, who picks them in low immigrant areas, Americans. There has never been a crop. A field of tomatoes that's not been harvested. It's all a myth. It's a lie. It's. It's. Why do people buy this garbage? It's, I did an article for Newsweek, about it, I don't know, a year and a half ago, I think. And, a about a case study in this. I did a lot of research, about jobs Americans won't do. I talked about West Virginia, but I also talked about Mexican hotel maids and American hotel maids. So American hotel maids, make about $24 an hour. Believe it or not, it's not bad paying work. It's good. Especially if you work. [00:30:25:09] Wilk Wilkinson: For a good, honest job. [00:30:27:03] Jim Robb: Right? I mean, right, it's like they never had any trouble getting people doing that work, but suddenly it's all recent arrivals from Latin America and, well, they work fine. Do no wrong in their work. But why are they there instead of the people who had those jobs? Ancestrally, I say, well, go to West Virginia and other areas like that, and you'll find, well, Americans are still doing their jobs a B because in Mexico the prevailing wage for a hotel maid is $2.75 an hour and local money $2.75 an hour. So, so the the the maid comes up to America legally or illegally. She's used to making 275 well, if someone pays her 1750 rather than the 2450 that Americans are paid, she's still got enough money to send so much money back home. She replaces the salary to her family. She was making down there. But she's building a modest life for up here. That sounds great. Except what? Who. What are the people doing? Who did that job previously? Yeah. Well, as we've seen the, the, the, employment rate, not the unemployment rate, the employment rate of especially men in our society has gone down for 50 years, every year, a little bit lower. So I it's like, what is it, 60, 65% working now versus like 85% 50 years ago? Why? Well, the expansion of social welfare is one reason the, the, the destruction of the American family, which men need a family to keep them steady and motivate, go to work. I'm a testament to that story. Right. I get up every day. Go to work. Yeah. So, but but the third thing is they've been displaced so often. Displaced by people who are desperate coming in, who will work for any wage. And it's not just at the low end like I've been talking about low and also the high. And how about, why is Microsoft and Apple hiring thousands of thousands of H-1b workers? Yeah, yeah, there's only one reason they're cheap. [00:32:41:21] Wilk Wilkinson: Right. And Jim, I this is gone way too fast. And I know we're getting close to the end of our time here today, so we're gonna have to save, a lot of, a lot of things that are left unsaid in this conversation for our next one. But, I think about a number of things here. And one of my biggest takeaways from this conversation is the importance of because this is a very complex topic that is way too often oversimplified. And when you take a complex topic and you oversimplify, it and then you introduce emotions, and then you also introduce the outrage entrepreneurs that are trying to capitalize upon this side's outrage on this issue or that sides issue on that issue. Right. It it makes sure that nothing gets done, but the reality is, is, is like my lived experience, you talked about, people picking crops and things like that. I grew up in the Midwest in the 70s and 80s and the in the 90s and every summer, a big thing that the teenagers would do would be to, we were spraying beans or throwing hay bales or rogueing corn or detasseling corn and things like that. That was a thing that kids did during the summer when they weren't in school. They earned money. They built a work ethic, things like that. So, it was easy when the, call it whatever power that be, it is a state government, federal government, whatever. When they start pricing things, kids out of the market or making it illegal for kids of a certain age to work, right, and things like that, it's a whole nother problem. But the reality is, is it wasn't a problem before. Those people have been displaced. Now, the reality is, Jim, we all have, especially people, of our age bracket or whatever, that that lived during those times when those things were happening. We didn't have a lot of illegal immigration. This, this whole thing wasn't a thing then, and people were doing those jobs. That's just one of the many complex pieces of this bigger equation. But the thing that I would encourage and and then I'll give you the last word on this, the thing that I would encourage people to think about is before you get all hot and bothered or post that next, meme online about, this, that or the other thing. There's a lot of myths and a lot of facts and a lot of gray area in the conversation that would come up when it comes to immigration. That's a Braver Angels in conjunction with with numbers, USA and many other different entities have come together to provide a structure where people can have these conversations, break down the complexities of it, find some common ground, and put forward some points of agreement that Congress will actually look at and then make something meaningful happen with, I'll give you the last word, but, to me, that that is that is just the most important takeaway from this conversation. And then the rest, we'll just have to leave for later because it's it's. [00:35:58:13] Jim Robb: A lot, but. [00:35:59:03] Wilk Wilkinson: It's important. [00:36:00:17] Jim Robb: Yeah. Well, well, I guess, you know, as I've gotten further into this work and trying to find common ground, I found that we have I've got opponents in the right wing, opponents in the left wing. The people on the wings don't want compromise. They they prefer not getting anything to giving someone else something they want. And it's it's been eye opening. I guess I knew that somehow, abstractly before. But, you know, people who are involved in Braver Angels and are really trying to find common ground, it's it's it's not easy. All the time because, politics isn't run that way in America anymore. And, that but the missing word in American politics, I guess, is my final point is, is is not compromise, it's persuasion. Because if we don't, if we don't bother to try to persuade someone, then they're not going to compromise because it's like they don't see you have any truth, right? So you can you can persuade me if you can. If you can. I'm listening. And I'll try to persuade you. And out of that comes compromise and common ground. [00:37:14:17] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, yeah. And a lot of persuasion comes with true understanding of who you're talking to. And if we aren't having the conversation, we cannot persuade anybody to do anything, and we just keep fighting. So, Jim, Robb, numbers USA. This has been a fantastic conversation. Many more to come between you and I, my friend. Just a lot of important things to talk about and, and and a lot of political dysfunction. So we will, we we will definitely have, more conversations in the future. Thank you so much, my friend. I appreciate it. [00:37:47:18] Jim Robb: My pleasure. Wilk. [00:37:50:21] Wilk Wilkinson: Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate the Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together, so please take a moment to visit Braver Angels.org and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divides. This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friends, I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
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