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In Episode 279 of Derate The Hate, host Wilk Wilkinson welcomes Nathan Smolensky, strategist, consultant, and author of Common Ground from the Ground Up. This conversation dives deep into what it takes to move beyond hyperpartisanship and build a healthier political culture—starting with ourselves.
Raised in Massachusetts by a family of Soviet immigrants who distrusted big government, Nathan grew up at the crossroads of competing political identities. That background shaped his passion for bridging divides and creating dialogue that heals rather than harms. Today, he’s helping individuals and organizations rethink how politics can serve people, not tear them apart.
✅ Humility and introspection matter – effective communication starts with looking inward.
✅ Political identity is personal – understanding this can unlock more compassionate dialogue.
✅ Storytelling builds bridges – sharing experiences helps convey complex beliefs.
✅ Hyperpartisanship is dangerous – but engaging in constructive dialogue can heal relationships.
✅ Certainty hinders learning – openness and adaptability fuel real growth.
✅ Broad participation is key – lowering barriers to entry makes politics healthier.
Nathan’s book is both a call to action and a roadmap for anyone who believes we can do politics differently. As he reminds us, this isn’t about civility for civility’s sake—it’s about reclaiming politics as a tool for problem-solving and connection.
At a time when political polarization seems stronger than ever, conversations like this one are vital. If we want a society that thrives, we have to start with better discourse, honest self-reflection, and the courage to listen.
🔗 Listen to the full conversation now on Derate The Hate and discover how you can help build common ground from the ground up.
🔗 Website: https://nathansmolensky.com/
This episode of Derate The Hate is produced in collaboration with Braver Angels — America’s largest cross-partisan, grassroots organization working to bridge political & societal divides to foster a more united country.
The world is a better place if we are better people. That begins with each of us as individuals. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for all you’ve got. Make every day the day that you want it to be!
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The Derate The Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels — America’s largest grassroots, cross-partisan organization working toward civic renewal and bridging partisan divides. Learn more: BraverAngels.org
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*The views expressed by Wilk, his guest hosts &/or guests on the Derate The Hate podcast are their own and should not be attributed to any organization they may otherwise be affiliated with.
Transcript is AI generated and may contain errors
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:25:22
Wilk Wilkinson
As my good friend Bill Doherty from Braver Angels reminds us humility about the weaknesses and limitations of one's own political side is at the heart of the workshops that we do at Braver Angels. Well, today on DTH, I am joined by author and strategist Nathan Smolensky to dive a bit deeper into that humility, how it fuels introspection, storytelling, and the healing power of dialog.
00:00:26:00 - 00:00:29:12
Wilk Wilkinson
Stay with me for another great Derate the hate conversation.
00:00:29:12 - 00:01:18:21
Wilk Wilkinson
Welcome back, my friends, for the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The D Rate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross. Partizan organization working towards civic renewal.
00:01:18:23 - 00:01:46:03
Wilk Wilkinson
This podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ.
00:01:46:05 - 00:02:10:12
Wilk Wilkinson
Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the Hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Share it with a friend and visit Braverangels.org to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partizan divide.
00:02:10:14 - 00:02:19:08
Wilk Wilkinson
Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it.
00:02:19:08 - 00:02:29:02
Wilk Wilkinson
This week I am joined by Nathan Smolensky, whose new book, Common Ground from the Ground Up, is an invitation to rethink the way that we do politics.
00:02:29:02 - 00:02:48:18
Wilk Wilkinson
Now, Nathan grew up in the heart of liberal Massachusetts, a child of Soviet immigrants who viewed socialism as the great danger. That unique upbringing gave him an early awareness of just how deeply divisions can shape our lives, and how badly our politics needs healing.
00:02:48:20 - 00:03:21:16
Wilk Wilkinson
Today, he brings that perspective to his work across the political spectrum, helping people see that constructive dialog is not just possible. It's essential. In our conversation, Nathan and I dig into some powerful themes from his book. We talk about the importance of introspection and humility. If we want to move beyond shouting matches. We explore how political identity often becomes personal and why that makes dialog so tough, but also so necessary.
00:03:21:18 - 00:03:49:23
Wilk Wilkinson
Nathan shows us how storytelling can cut through the barriers, helping us communicate complex ideas and truly understand one another. When we take a hard look at the dangers of hyper partizanship, along with the opportunities for political innovation, when more people engage with openness and a willingness to adapt. This episode is a reminder that Healing Divisions isn't about being civil for civility sake.
00:03:50:01 - 00:04:01:12
Wilk Wilkinson
It's about reclaiming politics as a tool for connection, problem solving, and genuine progress. Let's get into it with Nathan Smolinski. Here we go.
00:04:01:12 - 00:04:02:10
Wilk Wilkinson
Nathan Smolenskey
00:04:02:10 - 00:04:06:16
Wilk Wilkinson
Thank you for joining me on the Derate the Hate podcast. It's good to see you today, man.
00:04:06:18 - 00:04:08:14
Nathan Smolenskey
Great to see you.
00:04:08:14 - 00:04:13:00
Wilk Wilkinson
So I recently had the opportunity to, to look over your book.
00:04:13:00 - 00:04:15:08
Wilk Wilkinson
Common ground from the ground up.
00:04:15:08 - 00:04:23:04
Wilk Wilkinson
and it's it's got so many things in there that that are so important to the work that that I do with Braver Angels and
00:04:23:04 - 00:04:29:15
Wilk Wilkinson
just to that bridge building space in general. So I appreciate you taking the time to talk to me here today,
00:04:29:15 - 00:04:32:20
Wilk Wilkinson
so let's start off by you telling me,
00:04:32:20 - 00:04:43:23
Wilk Wilkinson
and more specifically, telling the listeners what got you motivated to write this book about common ground.
00:04:44:01 - 00:04:58:05
Nathan Smolenskey
So there were a couple big, big catalysts for me. This is a space as far as both depolarization and what I call political innovation.
00:04:58:05 - 00:05:10:01
Nathan Smolenskey
That I've been in for some ten years volunteering, working in different organizations past two years. So 2022 to 2024,
00:05:10:01 - 00:05:14:12
Nathan Smolenskey
I was part of the forward party.
00:05:14:12 - 00:05:15:14
Nathan Smolenskey
I ran,
00:05:15:14 - 00:05:20:04
Nathan Smolenskey
the Florida State forward party, actually, for some time there.
00:05:20:06 - 00:05:30:06
Nathan Smolenskey
And there were two big things that stuck out to me. One is we kept touching in messaging on a better way to do politics, a better way to think about politics,
00:05:30:06 - 00:05:43:03
Nathan Smolenskey
sort of a better approach to listening, learning from others, just handling discourse. And it it kind of lacked a codification. It lacked definition,
00:05:43:03 - 00:05:50:05
Nathan Smolenskey
that I thought was really vital to our or other organizations being able to message around it.
00:05:50:07 - 00:05:52:11
Nathan Smolenskey
Understand it and,
00:05:52:11 - 00:06:02:03
Nathan Smolenskey
also test for it because we wouldn't fall into this. The is this person really practicing better dialog? Is this person doing so,
00:06:02:03 - 00:06:12:02
Nathan Smolenskey
and all that. And then the second big thing that was really striking to me is just how much both,
00:06:12:02 - 00:06:18:15
Nathan Smolenskey
we and other movements within this space, we're getting trapped inside our own bubbles.
00:06:18:15 - 00:06:21:18
Nathan Smolenskey
And this is something we tend to accuse,
00:06:21:18 - 00:06:26:01
Nathan Smolenskey
or tend to point at the right and left,
00:06:26:01 - 00:06:43:01
Nathan Smolenskey
about as being in their own bubbles, in their own spaces. But I think we tend to fall into it as well. Everyone falls into that because you create these barriers to entry, you create these opt ins. And ultimately, when your pitch,
00:06:43:01 - 00:06:50:11
Nathan Smolenskey
is something along the lines of we need to defeat the duopoly, we need to seek out depolarization.
00:06:50:13 - 00:07:19:03
Nathan Smolenskey
We need to do this. These are part of a broader set. I call in the book these moral, declarative, or moral imperatives. And ultimately they're not selling anyone on these things. They're just sort of saying, hey, if you want to do this, come here. And so it is limiting as far as persuading new audiences as far as bringing in new audiences.
00:07:19:05 - 00:07:36:19
Nathan Smolenskey
And I thought with just all that, I saw all the good that I saw of this listening style, this constructive dialog that some of the politicians I've worked with, that I was able to practice more and more over the years.
00:07:36:19 - 00:07:57:17
Nathan Smolenskey
I think it sells it short to expect people to buy in to depolarization as the problem that needs to be solved before they should go about trying to solve depolarization, because there is more to be gained for everyone involved in practicing better dialog, in practicing better discourse.
00:07:57:19 - 00:08:11:17
Nathan Smolenskey
And I wanted to share that with people. And so that is what common ground from the ground up is an exploration of. It is the ways that we can engage more productively with others as well. As,
00:08:11:17 - 00:08:21:04
Nathan Smolenskey
what I like to call the upstream political, societal, cultural drivers of this, of our division, of our need
00:08:21:04 - 00:08:38:06
Nathan Smolenskey
for better dialog and the downstream impact that we can have through better dialog, through being able to communicate with each other better, which are bigger and broader, and bring more wins to more people than sometimes we talk about here.
00:08:38:08 - 00:08:40:13
Nathan Smolenskey
Yeah, no, no, no doubt.
00:08:40:14 - 00:08:42:05
Wilk Wilkinson
No doubt. And one of the things that,
00:08:42:05 - 00:08:44:17
Wilk Wilkinson
that really struck me about the book,
00:08:44:17 - 00:08:49:13
Wilk Wilkinson
Nathan, is, is the, the idea of introspection.
00:08:49:13 - 00:09:00:10
Wilk Wilkinson
One of the big things I talk about here on the Derate the Hate podcast, is my journey. And from from a more toxic person now to a more of a,
00:09:00:10 - 00:09:02:16
Wilk Wilkinson
a bridge builder and things like that.
00:09:02:16 - 00:09:03:04
Wilk Wilkinson
And,
00:09:03:04 - 00:09:12:13
Wilk Wilkinson
we we I see in your book, you talk a lot about introspection and humility and, and how we have to, to, to work on our own mindset and,
00:09:12:13 - 00:09:13:21
Wilk Wilkinson
to a certain degree,
00:09:13:21 - 00:09:14:20
Wilk Wilkinson
before we can
00:09:14:20 - 00:09:16:04
Wilk Wilkinson
effectively,
00:09:16:04 - 00:09:28:02
Wilk Wilkinson
do this good communication. Right? It's I mean, it definitely helps. I know that's it's it's a big part of how I do things and how I see things is, is I can't,
00:09:28:02 - 00:09:30:23
Wilk Wilkinson
I can't help others if my own cup is empty.
00:09:31:04 - 00:09:33:15
Wilk Wilkinson
I've got to work on,
00:09:33:15 - 00:09:48:08
Wilk Wilkinson
work on myself and figure out a lot about myself before I can start to, effectively communicate and and and really receive the message of others. So. So talk to me a little bit about
00:09:48:08 - 00:09:59:21
Wilk Wilkinson
your interpretation of introspection, humility and the importance of that in, in this depolarization work that, that some of us are doing now.
00:09:59:23 - 00:10:00:17
Nathan Smolenskey
Well,
00:10:00:17 - 00:10:25:23
Nathan Smolenskey
yeah. I think everything you said is absolutely true is you need to understand these phenomena of what drives us towards negative behaviors. We see it in ourselves. And I think it's really essential that humility, insofar as realizing you're not so above it all, you don't want to come from a place where you feel like you're lecturing.
00:10:26:01 - 00:10:33:10
Nathan Smolenskey
You don't want to come from a place where it's like, I've seen the light and let me share it with you.
00:10:33:10 - 00:10:35:14
Nathan Smolenskey
Because people don't like that. I don't like that.
00:10:35:14 - 00:10:53:18
Nathan Smolenskey
And I talk in the book about just applying the Golden rule and understanding how to engage in a conversation. It's a way that someone wants to engage in a conversation with you, the way that you would want to engage with them.
00:10:53:20 - 00:11:23:00
Nathan Smolenskey
And again, to your point, it's just realizing, not like this person is brainwashed. This person is not engaging in good dialog, just realizing that we are susceptible. We are all susceptible to getting enamored with our political identity, to taking things too far, to having a sort of zoomed in,
00:11:23:00 - 00:11:40:22
Nathan Smolenskey
notion of what the issues are, what our beliefs are missing, the bigger picture and our place in the broader conversation, and also just getting mired in this conflict mentality that we assume we tend to assume is just what politics has to be.
00:11:41:00 - 00:12:04:09
Nathan Smolenskey
But it doesn't. And yeah, and it's not not coming from a place where you're lecturing is one of the big, big things that I really wanted to capture with this book, which is it is not do this because you ought to do this, do this because these are the rules. Do this because it is morally better to do this.
00:12:04:11 - 00:12:06:12
Nathan Smolenskey
I don't necessarily disagree,
00:12:06:12 - 00:12:15:07
Nathan Smolenskey
with those things, with those kinds of calls to action, but I think that we sell constructive discourse short,
00:12:15:07 - 00:12:17:15
Nathan Smolenskey
when we focus on those things.
00:12:17:17 - 00:12:29:15
Wilk Wilkinson
Because first, to sound too preachy, it just gets to be, hey, yeah. I mean, we just it gets, people start to tune out, right? I mean, if we get too preachy, one of the things that you just brought up there,
00:12:29:15 - 00:12:32:21
Wilk Wilkinson
Nathan, that I want to expand upon a little bit,
00:12:32:21 - 00:12:36:03
Wilk Wilkinson
because I know it's it seems to be that
00:12:36:03 - 00:12:37:03
Wilk Wilkinson
one thing that,
00:12:37:03 - 00:12:47:07
Wilk Wilkinson
just another one of the great things that you highlight in this book is you mentioned political identity and and then political identity.
00:12:47:09 - 00:13:08:13
Wilk Wilkinson
Far too often nowadays, we find that people are are taking their political identity and personalizing it, making it part of their personal identity. Right. And and it's it is one of these things where it's, it's it's it becomes very difficult to try and speak with somebody about,
00:13:08:13 - 00:13:13:21
Wilk Wilkinson
about things or try to try to open their mind about things,
00:13:13:21 - 00:13:20:23
Wilk Wilkinson
that they, they have absolute certainty on when they have personalized it, made it part of their personal identity.
00:13:21:01 - 00:13:33:17
Wilk Wilkinson
Now they often they, they if you try to speak to them in a way that's contrary to what they believe politically, they start to take it as a personal attack. Dive into that a little bit for me. Would you?
00:13:33:19 - 00:13:37:23
Nathan Smolenskey
So I think you're absolutely right that. Yeah,
00:13:37:23 - 00:13:49:21
Nathan Smolenskey
it holds us back in a lot of ways. And I talk about in the book sort of politics as sport and our sort of team identity,
00:13:49:21 - 00:14:00:01
Nathan Smolenskey
the team aspect of political identity, where we find these people who have like minded values, who have beliefs like ours, and they create a sense of community.
00:14:00:01 - 00:14:03:06
Nathan Smolenskey
They create a sense of belonging, a sense of purpose.
00:14:03:06 - 00:14:10:14
Nathan Smolenskey
That is one level of it. And it is something that we can get caught up in to our detriment.
00:14:10:14 - 00:14:29:02
Nathan Smolenskey
And there is politics as religion where I view the, the key dividing line, and it's always going to be a little blurry for me is having your political identity be your internal affirmation of what makes you a good person.
00:14:29:04 - 00:14:50:10
Nathan Smolenskey
I am a good person because of my politics. This is an expression of my morality. This is the affirmation of my morality. And once you are in that space, it is very, very easy to get carried away with it, to block out other things, to justify,
00:14:50:10 - 00:14:53:05
Nathan Smolenskey
greater and greater and more extreme means,
00:14:53:05 - 00:15:02:04
Nathan Smolenskey
to your political ends because of how you view your political ends and the absolute nature, the moral nature, the impetus,
00:15:02:04 - 00:15:03:07
Nathan Smolenskey
for them.
00:15:03:09 - 00:15:04:23
Nathan Smolenskey
But I want to,
00:15:04:23 - 00:15:12:20
Nathan Smolenskey
want to dive a little deeper into one of the things you said, which is it's hard to get through to them,
00:15:12:20 - 00:15:41:22
Nathan Smolenskey
to these people, when they become so kind of enamored, so deep in their political identity, when it becomes this part of their personal identity. And that is just reversing the lens a little bit, which is, yes, it's hard to get through to them, but it's also hard for them to get through to others because they are kind of stuck in their mindset, in their way of talking about policy and their way of thinking about politics.
00:15:42:00 - 00:15:50:21
Nathan Smolenskey
They are being held back. They want to communicate. They care for good reason about these issues and about these values that are so integral to,
00:15:50:21 - 00:16:05:12
Nathan Smolenskey
the core of their belief system. And them not engaging in constructive dialog is holding them back from reaching beyond their audience, from reaching beyond their choir. And there's actually something you say in,
00:16:05:12 - 00:16:13:06
Nathan Smolenskey
in all your intros on this podcast that I if, if you don't mind, I, I'd even go so far as to push back a little on,
00:16:13:06 - 00:16:17:22
Nathan Smolenskey
which is that we do this not to change minds on the issues,
00:16:17:22 - 00:16:20:11
Nathan Smolenskey
but to change how we see each other when we disagree.
00:16:20:13 - 00:16:45:23
Nathan Smolenskey
I think that's the line that you use and I think that sells constructive dialog a little short, because we do want to change minds. We do want to get our ideas out there. We do want to kind of share our political learnings and our insights on the world with others. And we serve ourselves better, doing that with,
00:16:45:23 - 00:16:47:06
Nathan Smolenskey
an open mind
00:16:47:06 - 00:16:48:16
Nathan Smolenskey
by listening to others.
00:16:48:18 - 00:17:27:05
Nathan Smolenskey
The there's something I say in the book, which is if you want people to change their minds, to be willing to open their minds to what you have to say. It goes back to the Golden rule be willing to change your mind to what they have to say. Once you put that forward, once you start listening, once you start engaging constructively and wanting to learn from them, they're going to reciprocate much more than you might think, and you are going to find yourself in a position where you're going to be able to reach a lot more people, to have conversations with a lot more people, and yeah, to get people to really think about what
00:17:27:05 - 00:17:28:07
Nathan Smolenskey
you have to say.
00:17:28:09 - 00:17:54:14
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah, no. And I appreciate the the feedback there. I appreciate the criticism. It, it I would say that, in terms of that intro and what I'm saying in that intro is my objective with this particular podcast or not to change anybody's mind on any particular thing. It's just to open people's minds, just and I'm just I'm just sharing this for context.
00:17:54:16 - 00:18:01:19
Wilk Wilkinson
I'm just here to open people's minds to the idea that their certainty often and to make your point,
00:18:01:19 - 00:18:07:03
Wilk Wilkinson
Nathan, certainty, in my opinion, stands in the way of so much learning.
00:18:07:03 - 00:18:09:13
Wilk Wilkinson
certainty stands in the way of people,
00:18:09:13 - 00:18:14:12
Wilk Wilkinson
stepping outside of their comfort zone. And when people step outside of their comfort zone.
00:18:14:12 - 00:18:18:13
Wilk Wilkinson
And that's where the real learning begins. That's where they can find out.
00:18:18:13 - 00:18:20:21
Wilk Wilkinson
maybe I wasn't in the right space,
00:18:20:21 - 00:18:26:23
Wilk Wilkinson
and things like that. So, so just for context, I actually, I absolutely believe,
00:18:26:23 - 00:18:28:01
Wilk Wilkinson
that that,
00:18:28:01 - 00:18:35:03
Wilk Wilkinson
people can change their minds and they should change their minds when they find that they've they've learned something new or they need to course.
00:18:35:03 - 00:18:48:03
Wilk Wilkinson
Correct. But but my intention with that line is basically to say the Deviate the Hate podcast me will quote comes in here doing this show. I'm not here to change your mind on anything. I'm just here to open your mind,
00:18:48:03 - 00:18:51:00
Wilk Wilkinson
to the ideas that there may be something better,
00:18:51:00 - 00:18:52:09
Wilk Wilkinson
in some other,
00:18:52:09 - 00:18:57:10
Wilk Wilkinson
space. So open your mind, step out of your silo, and let's learn together.
00:18:57:10 - 00:18:57:17
Wilk Wilkinson
Right.
00:18:57:17 - 00:18:59:12
Nathan Smolenskey
So 100%.
00:18:59:12 - 00:19:00:08
Nathan Smolenskey
And,
00:19:00:08 - 00:19:03:21
Nathan Smolenskey
I don't want any listeners to get that misconstrued either.
00:19:03:21 - 00:19:12:02
Nathan Smolenskey
And I use a very similar line, by the way, in my book, which is, look, I'm not there to promote my agenda. I am not,
00:19:12:02 - 00:19:21:02
Nathan Smolenskey
as far as the issues themselves go, I am not there to ask anyone to change their ideas on issues or their beliefs,
00:19:21:02 - 00:19:24:10
Nathan Smolenskey
or to relinquish any part of their political identity.
00:19:24:10 - 00:19:26:23
Nathan Smolenskey
Really, it is just to consider,
00:19:26:23 - 00:19:34:01
Nathan Smolenskey
the benefits of engaging in a different kind of dialog. But as far as I think a general,
00:19:34:01 - 00:19:38:14
Nathan Smolenskey
call to action for engaging in civil discourse,
00:19:38:14 - 00:19:51:01
Nathan Smolenskey
we do sell ourselves short when we don't mention that, hey, this is a way to actually get in these conversations and reach people. Reach people with your ideas, your specific,
00:19:51:01 - 00:19:52:13
Nathan Smolenskey
insights that
00:19:52:13 - 00:19:54:16
Nathan Smolenskey
you would really struggle to otherwise.
00:19:54:16 - 00:20:09:15
Nathan Smolenskey
And we are all kind of facing this problem. This is a universal thing. If we get stuck inside our bubbles and stuck, in this alienation and division, and so it.
00:20:09:15 - 00:20:19:07
Nathan Smolenskey
And we all lose from that, we can all gain from just engaging with open minds and curious minds and learning from each other, listening to each other.
00:20:19:09 - 00:20:24:04
Wilk Wilkinson
Oh, that's that's all right. I mean, I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, I think the biggest,
00:20:24:04 - 00:20:27:06
Wilk Wilkinson
one of the largest problems that we face as a nation,
00:20:27:06 - 00:20:36:16
Wilk Wilkinson
as a people that make up what I consider the greatest nation on the planet is the idea that so many people now refuse to,
00:20:36:16 - 00:20:47:04
Wilk Wilkinson
have a constructive dialog or refuse to to have meaningful engagement with people that don't think, or see things the way that they do.
00:20:47:06 - 00:20:57:03
Wilk Wilkinson
I mean, that that that to me is, is, is a huge problem. So we need to, we absolutely need to encourage more dialog,
00:20:57:03 - 00:20:57:20
Wilk Wilkinson
with people
00:20:57:20 - 00:20:59:03
Wilk Wilkinson
on the other side.
00:20:59:03 - 00:21:00:14
Wilk Wilkinson
one of the big things,
00:21:00:14 - 00:21:04:06
Wilk Wilkinson
again, that I talk about quite often is the importance of,
00:21:04:06 - 00:21:09:16
Wilk Wilkinson
of storytelling and, and and not only about storytelling, but story listening.
00:21:09:16 - 00:21:24:07
Wilk Wilkinson
Right? I mean, stories are or the, the ability to effectively tell a story and, and use that story to convey a message, to show people why it is that you believe a certain thing.
00:21:24:07 - 00:21:34:15
Wilk Wilkinson
But then reciprocating that right, being able to receive somebody else's story to truly understand what, what life experience got them to believe what they believe.
00:21:34:17 - 00:21:42:10
Wilk Wilkinson
So talk about talk about your feelings on storytelling and the importance of storytelling and why that that's a big part of,
00:21:42:10 - 00:21:45:02
Wilk Wilkinson
of of what you're, you're trying to convey in this,
00:21:45:02 - 00:21:47:11
Wilk Wilkinson
this book as well.
00:21:47:13 - 00:21:52:03
Nathan Smolenskey
I mean, I think you tap into something very similar to,
00:21:52:03 - 00:22:08:16
Nathan Smolenskey
what we discussed with introspection, where it is being able to zoom out a little bit and never sure if introspection is zooming in and zooming or zooming out. It's kind of both. But basically to,
00:22:08:16 - 00:22:22:16
Nathan Smolenskey
to understand your beliefs in context, what drives what you believe, why you believe it, and people on the surface may see that as tempering the message, as
00:22:22:16 - 00:22:28:01
Nathan Smolenskey
being less assertive or less conclusive, less passionate about it.
00:22:28:01 - 00:22:52:16
Nathan Smolenskey
When you go from this is absolute truth to this is why I'm inclined to believe this. This is why I resonate with this. These are the things that led me to this point or that point, but in reality, it makes it much more accessible. It makes it much more real, and it's something that others can engage with. When you create this assertion, this is absolute fact.
00:22:52:17 - 00:23:17:14
Nathan Smolenskey
When people agree or they disagree, if they agree, then you're going to have a fun agreeing match and you're going to rah rah, and it's going to be a great time. If they disagree, you're not going to get very far. And having that storyteller mindset I talk about in the book, Finding the Common Language and just seeking these ways to express ideas that become more accessible, that become more universal.
00:23:17:14 - 00:23:35:02
Nathan Smolenskey
I talk about sort of our understandings of power in societal problems, realizing that power can come in a lot of different ways. It can be misused in a lot of different ways. It can lead to inefficiencies. It can lead to, abuses, whether malicious or,
00:23:35:02 - 00:23:44:05
Nathan Smolenskey
just kind of corruption over time and realizing that a lot of different perspectives can weigh in on that conversation.
00:23:44:05 - 00:24:10:12
Nathan Smolenskey
A lot of different stories can add to that conversation and add to that understanding of complex issues as complex issues, realizing that you are part of this greater conversation, realizing that there is a greater conversation that you can be a part of is essential to. Yeah, just being able to engage and and talk positively. Think positively about issues with a lot of different people.
00:24:10:14 - 00:24:15:06
Nathan Smolenskey
And yeah, realizing that is just a huge, huge breakthrough,
00:24:15:06 - 00:24:16:18
Nathan Smolenskey
that a lot of people,
00:24:16:18 - 00:24:18:07
Nathan Smolenskey
can gain from.
00:24:18:09 - 00:24:23:21
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah. And yeah, there's, there's great power in storytelling and,
00:24:23:21 - 00:24:32:17
Wilk Wilkinson
one of the things that I think storytelling and effective storytelling really, really does and helps with is, is,
00:24:32:17 - 00:24:34:13
Wilk Wilkinson
as we are,
00:24:34:13 - 00:24:43:16
Wilk Wilkinson
I guess too often when, when people are trying to debate a particular issue or, or they're trying to push their side onto the other side,
00:24:43:16 - 00:24:47:04
Wilk Wilkinson
their, their beliefs on to the other side, right?
00:24:47:04 - 00:24:50:05
Wilk Wilkinson
They try to oversimplify,
00:24:50:05 - 00:24:52:15
Wilk Wilkinson
complex issues, kind of like you said,
00:24:52:15 - 00:24:59:01
Wilk Wilkinson
oversimplification of complex issues is always a real problem when we're talking about politics.
00:24:59:01 - 00:25:08:13
Wilk Wilkinson
we we we just completely discount most of what's actually happening in the conversation. Oversimplify it and then just say, and this is the way it is,
00:25:08:13 - 00:25:12:12
Wilk Wilkinson
at least with effective storytelling and showing the other,
00:25:12:12 - 00:25:14:01
Wilk Wilkinson
the other person,
00:25:14:01 - 00:25:24:15
Wilk Wilkinson
how it is that we have come to believe what we believe, why we view this world the way that we view it, I think, is a huge, hugely important,
00:25:24:15 - 00:25:25:18
Wilk Wilkinson
method for,
00:25:25:18 - 00:25:27:18
Wilk Wilkinson
effective communication.
00:25:27:20 - 00:25:31:13
Wilk Wilkinson
Something else I want to key on there that you think you said there. Nathan.
00:25:31:13 - 00:25:35:17
Wilk Wilkinson
Is is and there was something in the book,
00:25:35:17 - 00:25:40:07
Wilk Wilkinson
about this that, that I'm trying to recall right now. Something about,
00:25:40:07 - 00:25:41:17
Wilk Wilkinson
because you because you talked about it,
00:25:41:17 - 00:25:47:21
Wilk Wilkinson
talked about some passion and conviction. I think it's something to the effect of passion and conviction.
00:25:47:23 - 00:25:52:12
Wilk Wilkinson
Has the ability to energize, but can often,
00:25:52:12 - 00:25:54:23
Wilk Wilkinson
rarely persuade.
00:25:54:23 - 00:25:55:13
Wilk Wilkinson
Something like.
00:25:55:13 - 00:25:56:21
Nathan Smolenskey
That. Yeah. Right. That's right.
00:25:56:22 - 00:25:59:20
Wilk Wilkinson
And it energizes, but it rarely persuades.
00:25:59:22 - 00:26:27:23
Nathan Smolenskey
Yeah. And you can absolutely be passionate in your storytelling. You can have conviction in your beliefs and still understand, okay, these are my beliefs for a reason. Understand that context. It's the way that we talk about politics in general, and the way that we're used to hearing politics expressed is in these manners. It's a lot of that fog that you talk about, which is really great at riling up the crowd,
00:26:27:23 - 00:26:30:22
Nathan Smolenskey
and just energizing the base, preaching to the choir.
00:26:31:00 - 00:26:48:10
Nathan Smolenskey
And I don't want to sell that short either, because we need to understand kind of why it's so pervasive on a societal level. Because look, from politicians perspectives, these are the people they're going to reach. They're already listening to them. They've opted in to those channels.
00:26:48:10 - 00:27:04:16
Nathan Smolenskey
Those are that's the audience that they have. And riling them up gets them turning out to vote, gets them donating money, gets them volunteering their time and energy and resources and sharing the message.
00:27:04:18 - 00:27:32:18
Nathan Smolenskey
Broadly for media, this is what makes money. But when we are used to hearing politics in this divisive manner, in this way that is optimized to energize and optimized to affirm, basically we lose a lot of our ability to have conversations to get through to people who aren't as boring to our worldview our way.
00:27:32:18 - 00:27:35:17
Nathan Smolenskey
Our political identity,
00:27:35:17 - 00:27:37:16
Nathan Smolenskey
our way of thinking about things.
00:27:37:18 - 00:27:54:15
Nathan Smolenskey
And if you can break out of that bubble again, that's hugely valuable for our interpersonal relationships, for being able to feel heard and make others feel heard, which is just so essential in all aspects of life. And,
00:27:54:15 - 00:28:09:00
Nathan Smolenskey
even beyond the political sphere. And it does create this sort of foundational building block, this really essential block for not only good interpersonal discourse, but really stronger societal discourse.
00:28:09:00 - 00:28:10:02
Nathan Smolenskey
And,
00:28:10:02 - 00:28:25:10
Nathan Smolenskey
as I argue in the book, you can take that and turn that into political change and translate that into electoral success. If you understand how to make it just as passionate, just as effective.
00:28:25:10 - 00:28:32:16
Nathan Smolenskey
And yeah, just as clear as any other political message.
00:28:32:18 - 00:28:33:06
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah.
00:28:33:06 - 00:28:34:12
Wilk Wilkinson
No, I think you're absolutely right.
00:28:34:12 - 00:28:38:08
Wilk Wilkinson
right away when I, when I was reading that, that part and
00:28:38:08 - 00:28:43:21
Wilk Wilkinson
how it energizes but rarely persuades, I just, I just go back to something I say quite often and
00:28:43:21 - 00:28:48:19
Wilk Wilkinson
it works fine for our particular base, on our particular side.
00:28:48:21 - 00:28:55:22
Wilk Wilkinson
But that same rhetoric causes the other side. Their ears just slam shut. I mean, they just don't they,
00:28:55:22 - 00:29:20:06
Wilk Wilkinson
So so when you say rarely persuades, I mean that that's a it's a great way to frame it because, yeah, it's hard to persuade people who are not listening. And when we're just trying to vote or when, when we're framing it in a way where we are just trying to energize our base, which is what we see most of the time in modern day politics, what we are doing, we may be energizing this base.
00:29:20:06 - 00:29:37:07
Wilk Wilkinson
Like you said, we may get the votes, we may get the fundraising on our side, but we are not going to persuade anybody on the other side because they are not listening. Their ears have slammed shut now I want one thing I want to as we draw closer to the end of our time here, Nathan,
00:29:37:07 - 00:29:38:16
Wilk Wilkinson
there's a there's a point that,
00:29:38:16 - 00:29:41:20
Wilk Wilkinson
that you make that that I think is very important.
00:29:41:20 - 00:29:42:21
Wilk Wilkinson
And then I want to,
00:29:42:21 - 00:29:47:13
Wilk Wilkinson
I want to get your take on, on this. And then I also want you to,
00:29:47:13 - 00:29:51:14
Wilk Wilkinson
kind of round out our time together by telling the listeners,
00:29:51:14 - 00:29:52:14
Wilk Wilkinson
1 or 2,
00:29:52:14 - 00:30:03:13
Wilk Wilkinson
1 or 2 essential things that you want them to get from your book. Common ground from the ground up, and then a quick action item that that everybody can, can easily do,
00:30:03:13 - 00:30:04:01
Wilk Wilkinson
for this.
00:30:04:01 - 00:30:06:10
Wilk Wilkinson
But but you, you mentioned,
00:30:06:10 - 00:30:09:08
Wilk Wilkinson
in there that that hyper partizanship,
00:30:09:08 - 00:30:25:03
Wilk Wilkinson
is, is nothing new, but it is bad and and and maybe even as dangerous right now as it's been for, for decades. So so talk to me a little bit about that. How you how you've drawn that conclusion.
00:30:25:03 - 00:30:27:00
Wilk Wilkinson
And then again, kind around us out with,
00:30:27:00 - 00:30:30:03
Wilk Wilkinson
a couple very key takes in the book and
00:30:30:03 - 00:30:34:08
Wilk Wilkinson
and, and then action item that you want the listeners to take away.
00:30:34:10 - 00:30:40:22
Nathan Smolenskey
So there is some uncertainty actually, where,
00:30:40:22 - 00:30:44:19
Nathan Smolenskey
approaching the question of how does our division,
00:30:44:19 - 00:30:53:01
Nathan Smolenskey
compare on a historical basis because beyond just how bad is it compared to say,
00:30:53:01 - 00:30:56:19
Nathan Smolenskey
division in antebellum,
00:30:56:19 - 00:31:11:16
Nathan Smolenskey
times or division in this era or that era? A lot of that we haven't really seen in full or we don't have the same data, we can't have the same data about it.
00:31:11:18 - 00:31:15:07
Nathan Smolenskey
But what we can conclude and,
00:31:15:07 - 00:31:29:15
Nathan Smolenskey
to the point of not really knowing a lot of us, we're always kind of alienated. We just didn't hear from them. Social media has empowered us or allowed us to see a lot of different perspectives and things that,
00:31:29:15 - 00:31:33:00
Nathan Smolenskey
the sources of disagreement that we might not have known were there.
00:31:33:02 - 00:31:41:21
Nathan Smolenskey
These were arguments that just weren't in the public eye or point, especially sort of as far as fringe beliefs or,
00:31:42:10 - 00:31:58:07
Nathan Smolenskey
All that goes. But all of that considered the situation that we're in is unique. There are cycles of division that feed on themselves. The more alienated we become, the more entrenched we become in our bubbles,
00:31:58:07 - 00:32:04:14
Nathan Smolenskey
the more of a hostile attitude we take towards each other, the more we justify in the name of,
00:32:04:14 - 00:32:11:12
Nathan Smolenskey
this absolute moral good versus evil perception of our political situation.
00:32:11:14 - 00:32:30:21
Nathan Smolenskey
And that in itself leads further and further down the spiral. And it creates a kind of a, a recipe for disaster and also a very fertile ground, as I like to say in the book, for exploitation. There are a lot of ways to take advantage of our division.
00:32:30:21 - 00:32:38:20
Nathan Smolenskey
And there are a lot of ways for malicious actors anywhere to sort of say, hey,
00:32:38:20 - 00:32:42:02
Nathan Smolenskey
you're arguing with each other.
00:32:42:04 - 00:32:49:07
Nathan Smolenskey
I'm going to have an easier time taking advantage of this weakness in the system. I'm going to have an easier time,
00:32:49:07 - 00:33:03:19
Nathan Smolenskey
just feeding this division and instigating conflict, if that is going to work in my advantage to my advantage. And so it creates all these risks. It creates all these dangers. And that,
00:33:03:19 - 00:33:16:21
Nathan Smolenskey
going back to the broader theme and the broader why of this book, but that is the societal imperative that these divisions are dangerous, that however bad they are on a historical context.
00:33:16:23 - 00:33:43:18
Nathan Smolenskey
And I try to avoid the assertion that they're the worst ever or they're worse than anything we've seen in 100 years. That's not necessary. They're bad and they're getting worse, and they have all these risks associated with them. But even all of that, that is just the societal imperative. The individual imperative is you can get your point across more effectively.
00:33:43:20 - 00:33:54:16
Nathan Smolenskey
You can reach different people. You can have you can heal conversations that have been so sorry, heal relationships,
00:33:54:16 - 00:34:08:14
Nathan Smolenskey
that have been severed or impaired by political division. You can do so much more and get your political points across, get your ideas across. Refine your ideas, grow your ideas,
00:34:08:14 - 00:34:09:22
Nathan Smolenskey
expand
00:34:09:22 - 00:34:17:06
Nathan Smolenskey
your beliefs and your worldview in so many positive ways and gain so much from engaging in,
00:34:17:06 - 00:34:20:17
Nathan Smolenskey
better discourse, from engaging in more constructive dialog.
00:34:20:19 - 00:34:33:21
Nathan Smolenskey
That is the point of this book and the why. Again, it goes back to lowering the barrier to entry, to having something where we as this broader space of I like to say,
00:34:33:21 - 00:34:50:13
Nathan Smolenskey
not only depolarization, but political innovation. Can pass this along and say to anyone in our lives who is affected by this conflict mentality, by this divisive mindset, by this fog,
00:34:50:13 - 00:34:57:20
Nathan Smolenskey
hey, if you want to try this, you can have conversations that are more constructive, more productive.
00:34:58:00 - 00:35:00:13
Nathan Smolenskey
You can get your points across to more people.
00:35:00:13 - 00:35:21:04
Nathan Smolenskey
And you can be a more effective advocate of all of these things that you believe without letting go of any of those beliefs. And that, to me is the core of the scalability. That, to me is the core of lowering the barrier to entry so that we can have more and more people,
00:35:21:04 - 00:35:23:17
Nathan Smolenskey
engage in this positive work.
00:35:23:19 - 00:35:26:03
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah. So important. And,
00:35:26:03 - 00:35:29:03
Wilk Wilkinson
so many great tips and action items in this book.
00:35:29:03 - 00:35:32:14
Wilk Wilkinson
The book, again, is common ground from the ground up,
00:35:32:14 - 00:35:35:21
Wilk Wilkinson
website NathanSmolensky.com. And
00:35:35:21 - 00:35:42:09
Wilk Wilkinson
we'll make sure that's in the show notes. Nathan Smolensky, thank you so much for joining me here on the die right day podcast. Man, it's been a pleasure.
00:35:42:11 - 00:35:43:09
Nathan Smolenskey
Thank you.
00:35:43:09 - 00:35:44:00
Nathan Smolenskey
Likewise.
00:35:44:00 - 00:36:13:20
Wilk Wilkinson
Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate the Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together, so please take a moment to visit Braverangels.org and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divides.
00:36:13:22 - 00:36:39:23
Wilk Wilkinson
This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friends, I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
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