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Courageous Connections: Embracing Pluralism Amidst American Populism
In this Derate The Hate bonus episode, host Wilk Wilkinson sits down with fellow Braver Angels Ibrahim Anli and Will Harwood for a powerful discussion on cultural and religious pluralism in the face of American populism.
They explore what it means to be American in today’s polarized climate and the importance of courageous connections in embracing diversity. Ibrahim, an immigrant to the U.S., and Will, a native-born American, share their personal insights on how America’s evolving identity can remain rooted in foundational civic values while allowing room for pluralism.
Key Topics:
Featured Guests:
Takeaways:
Listen Now to hear a thought-provoking conversation on how we can embrace diversity, overcome polarization, and strengthen the fabric of American society in the face of modern challenges.
The world is a better place if we are better people. That begins with each of us as individuals. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for all you’ve got. Make every day the day that you want it to be!
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The Derate The Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels — America’s largest grassroots, cross-partisan organization working toward civic renewal and bridging partisan divides. Learn more: BraverAngels.org
Welcome to the Derate The Hate Podcast!
*The views expressed by Wilk, his guest hosts &/or guests on the Derate The Hate podcast are their own and should not be attributed to any organization they may otherwise be affiliated with.
Transcript is AI generated and may contain errors
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:32:03
Wilk Wilkinson
Do you ever feel uneasy about the changes happening in our society today? Are you concerned or maybe even fearful about how immigration, cultural pluralism and religious diversity are reshaping the very fabric of our national identity? Americanization means the process of becoming an American. It means civic incorporation, becoming a part of the polity, becoming one of us. But that does not mean conformity.
00:00:32:05 - 00:00:59:11
Wilk Wilkinson
We are more than a melting pot. We are a kaleidoscope. This is a quote from Barbara Jordan, civil rights icon and constitutional scholar, and it reminds us that being an American isn't about sameness. It's about shared purpose. It's about civic belonging. And it's about embracing the vibrant, refracted diversity that makes this country not just a place, but a promise.
00:00:59:12 - 00:01:20:04
Wilk Wilkinson
In today's episode, I am joined by two fellow braver angels. Will Harwood and Ibrahim Anli for a powerful conversation about civic culture, national identity and what it means to choose America not just as a home, but as a story we live into together.
00:01:20:04 - 00:01:23:13
Ibrahim Anli
it was this living contract. And I'll quote,
00:01:23:13 - 00:01:41:02
Ibrahim Anli
Alexis de Tocqueville, maybe not in an exact word form, but he says the the greatest strength of Americans is their ability and willingness to to face their shortcomings, to encounter their shortcomings.
00:01:41:04 - 00:01:42:21
Ibrahim Anli
That is being just,
00:01:42:21 - 00:01:44:05
Ibrahim Anli
such,
00:01:44:05 - 00:01:47:00
Ibrahim Anli
a profound part of this
00:01:47:00 - 00:01:49:00
Will Harwood
I think that there's a fundamental,
00:01:49:00 - 00:01:56:10
Will Harwood
optimism and sense of we rise to our challenges, whatever those are, as a country, and we find our way through.
00:01:56:12 - 00:01:57:07
Will Harwood
And,
00:01:57:07 - 00:02:05:13
Will Harwood
to me, that is a that's a fundamental American spirit, right? Like we're going to be able to get through whatever the challenges are. Now, today with polarization, I always say,
00:02:05:13 - 00:02:12:05
Will Harwood
we don't we don't choose. No American generation has ever sat down and chosen the challenges that it's confronting.
00:02:12:06 - 00:02:14:00
Will Harwood
But always we've risen to them.
00:02:14:00 - 00:02:16:11
Ibrahim Anli
it's it's just the story of,
00:02:16:11 - 00:02:30:08
Ibrahim Anli
another individual who, as you said, chooses this country to as as his home and to a very large number of countries in the world.
00:02:30:10 - 00:02:32:12
Ibrahim Anli
This whole idea of,
00:02:32:12 - 00:02:44:02
Ibrahim Anli
adopting that country as your home is a lot of technicalities. It's a matter of technicalities. It's not a matter of story or identity.
00:02:44:02 - 00:02:47:05
Ibrahim Anli
Even if that happens, that that happens in,
00:02:47:05 - 00:02:55:12
Ibrahim Anli
multiple generations. Not in the case of the United States. It is this living contract,
00:02:55:12 - 00:02:57:18
Ibrahim Anli
way beyond technicalities,
00:02:57:18 - 00:03:05:19
Will Harwood
I think part of the challenge that we have to do today is also ground ourselves so that we have that shared understanding of what the civic culture needs to be,
00:03:05:19 - 00:03:07:13
Will Harwood
and how we can set that forward.
00:03:07:13 - 00:03:40:13
Wilk Wilkinson
Two Americans, one natural born, one by choice. Different backgrounds and beliefs. Coming together for a conversation about optimism, realism and the living contract we all share as citizens. It's about grounding ourselves in civic culture, not as nostalgia, but as a forward looking foundation. So whether you're feeling hopeful or uncertain, this discussion is for you. Let's roll that intro and get into this bonus episode.
00:03:40:13 - 00:04:29:22
Wilk Wilkinson
Welcome back, my friends, for the Derate The Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog. And those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross Partizan organization working towards civic renewal.
00:04:30:00 - 00:04:57:04
Wilk Wilkinson
This podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ.
00:04:57:06 - 00:05:21:13
Wilk Wilkinson
Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate The Hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Share it with a friend and visit Braver angels.org to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partizan divide.
00:05:21:15 - 00:05:30:09
Wilk Wilkinson
Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate The Hate episode. So let's get to it.
00:05:31:04 - 00:06:13:00
Wilk Wilkinson
In today's conversation. Ibrahim Anli and Will Harwood discuss the complex balance between religious and cultural pluralism and American identity, particularly in this populist era. Ibrahim, as an immigrant, reflects on the concept of a living contract, an evolving civic creed that transcends legalities, reminding us that America's strength lies in its ability to self-correct and adapt. He emphasizes that America's unique power lies in its openness to newcomers, allowing for personal and religious freedom, a space where immigrants like him can find both refuge and opportunity.
00:06:13:02 - 00:06:39:03
Wilk Wilkinson
Will builds on this by underscoring the importance of grounding ourselves in the nation's founding principles, especially the Constitution. He points to the ongoing challenges of polarization and skepticism, but encourages an optimistic outlook rooted in historic resilience, reminding us that America's greatness is defined by its ability to confront adversity through open conversation.
00:06:39:03 - 00:06:48:08
Wilk Wilkinson
Together, Ibrahim and will highlight that embracing both cultural pluralism and a shared commitment to foundational values is
00:06:48:12 - 00:06:51:15
Wilk Wilkinson
The key to overcoming division and ensuring
00:06:51:15 - 00:06:59:06
Wilk Wilkinson
the American experiment continues to thrive. Let's get into it with my friends, Will and Ibrahim! Here we go.
00:06:59:06 - 00:07:00:11
Wilk Wilkinson
Ibrahim,
00:07:00:11 - 00:07:01:14
Wilk Wilkinson
Anli and,
00:07:01:14 - 00:07:09:23
Wilk Wilkinson
Will Harwood, thank you so much for joining me for this special episode of the Derate The Hate podcast. I appreciate you guys being here today.
00:07:10:01 - 00:07:11:12
Ibrahim Anli
Thank you. Happy to be here.
00:07:11:14 - 00:07:13:21
Will Harwood
Great to be with you guys.
00:07:13:23 - 00:07:17:05
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah. So so excited for this conversation.
00:07:17:05 - 00:07:22:00
Wilk Wilkinson
you guys have both been part of Braver Angels for for a while now,
00:07:22:00 - 00:07:35:09
Wilk Wilkinson
and know how important it is to have these, these wonderful conversations freely, fully without fear and and. Will, when you came to me with the idea that that,
00:07:35:09 - 00:07:48:07
Wilk Wilkinson
that there was a relationship that you had been building with Ibrahim and, and on and then this topic of, religious pluralism and, and how that worked with,
00:07:48:07 - 00:07:54:00
Wilk Wilkinson
American identity and in this, this kind of populist era.
00:07:54:02 - 00:08:03:14
Wilk Wilkinson
It just it was such an interesting idea, and I thought it was such an important concept that we should bring this, this conversation.
00:08:03:14 - 00:08:05:07
Wilk Wilkinson
Between the two of you,
00:08:05:07 - 00:08:17:01
Wilk Wilkinson
to the listeners, because because this is one of those conversations and one of those things that I think is on a lot of people's minds, especially today in this, in this era that we're in.
00:08:17:03 - 00:08:17:15
Wilk Wilkinson
And,
00:08:17:15 - 00:08:23:18
Wilk Wilkinson
for the two of you to step up and be willing to, to have that that conversation,
00:08:23:18 - 00:08:29:19
Wilk Wilkinson
right now is, is is incredible. So thank you both very much for,
00:08:29:19 - 00:08:32:07
Wilk Wilkinson
for being here today.
00:08:32:09 - 00:08:37:03
Will Harwood
Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you, Wilk, for having us. It's really I'm excited for the conversation.
00:08:37:03 - 00:08:39:04
Will Harwood
That we can jump into. And I'll just say,
00:08:39:04 - 00:08:39:20
Will Harwood
when I,
00:08:39:20 - 00:08:50:21
Will Harwood
Ibrahim and I were talking about this originally, one of the things that I love so much about Braver Angels is that it brings you together with really great Americans, people that are looking to build,
00:08:50:21 - 00:08:51:18
Will Harwood
and to,
00:08:51:18 - 00:08:58:08
Will Harwood
take on the challenge of polarization to restart the conversations, to engage, to get together.
00:08:58:10 - 00:08:59:17
Will Harwood
And, Ibrahim,
00:08:59:17 - 00:09:01:15
Will Harwood
from the first moment that I met him,
00:09:01:15 - 00:09:05:20
Will Harwood
has always struck me in, the meetings where
00:09:05:20 - 00:09:08:19
Will Harwood
I walk away and I leave with thoughts,
00:09:08:19 - 00:09:11:06
Will Harwood
that are provoking and,
00:09:11:06 - 00:09:12:22
Will Harwood
things that stick with me,
00:09:12:22 - 00:09:16:12
Will Harwood
so I can go back all the way through, probably to the first time, Ibrahim, that you and I met.
00:09:16:17 - 00:09:19:04
Will Harwood
And I can recount the,
00:09:19:04 - 00:09:22:07
Will Harwood
pieces of of insight that you've shared.
00:09:22:07 - 00:09:23:14
Will Harwood
So rich and,
00:09:23:14 - 00:09:27:16
Will Harwood
obviously we come. We're all coming together as Americans first and foremost.
00:09:27:16 - 00:09:31:14
Will Harwood
And but we all come with our own unique backgrounds and stories.
00:09:31:14 - 00:09:39:03
Will Harwood
But this, this topic of American identity, to me, is sort of the fundamental question today,
00:09:39:03 - 00:09:40:23
Will Harwood
of what it is that defines us.
00:09:40:23 - 00:09:42:17
Will Harwood
And if you just look at the,
00:09:42:17 - 00:09:44:12
Will Harwood
the past couple of weeks,
00:09:44:12 - 00:09:49:20
Will Harwood
the vice president, J.D. Vance, I don't know if you saw his speech at the Claremont Institute,
00:09:49:20 - 00:09:54:21
Will Harwood
recently, but it was really centered on these exact topics. I was just looking at that up,
00:09:54:21 - 00:10:01:00
Will Harwood
in preparation for this, this call. But he was putting forward a lot of the same kind of core,
00:10:01:00 - 00:10:03:12
Will Harwood
concepts of how do we deal with,
00:10:03:12 - 00:10:06:10
Will Harwood
cultural diversity and also,
00:10:06:10 - 00:10:14:02
Will Harwood
religious diversity, cultural diversity, but also having that shared sense of what it means to be American and making sure that our identity can be,
00:10:14:02 - 00:10:14:22
Will Harwood
above that,
00:10:14:22 - 00:10:15:09
Will Harwood
at the higher
00:10:15:09 - 00:10:20:19
Will Harwood
level in a, in a respect. So I'm really thrilled to to join you guys for this conversation.
00:10:20:21 - 00:10:23:04
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah. Me too. So, so, Ibrahim,
00:10:23:04 - 00:10:27:17
Wilk Wilkinson
let let me let me ask you then, then right off the bat because,
00:10:27:17 - 00:10:28:08
Wilk Wilkinson
I know,
00:10:28:08 - 00:10:30:06
Wilk Wilkinson
both Will and I were born,
00:10:30:06 - 00:10:34:23
Wilk Wilkinson
born here, native to the United States. But you are,
00:10:34:23 - 00:10:47:20
Wilk Wilkinson
you you are somebody who immigrated to the United States. So when when people talk about the American identity and and what the American identity is and and,
00:10:47:20 - 00:10:55:20
Wilk Wilkinson
what does that mean to you as somebody who, who, who chose to come here and chose to make that,
00:10:55:20 - 00:10:59:00
Wilk Wilkinson
part of a part of your life because,
00:10:59:00 - 00:11:03:20
Wilk Wilkinson
I think there's obviously a, a, a paradox there,
00:11:03:20 - 00:11:04:09
Wilk Wilkinson
that, that a
00:11:04:09 - 00:11:14:14
Wilk Wilkinson
lot of people don't quite understand. Yes, we are all Americans. Well, and I by birth, you by choice. So talk to me about,
00:11:14:14 - 00:11:21:22
Wilk Wilkinson
about the American identity and what that means to you and why that is so important to you.
00:11:22:00 - 00:11:23:04
Ibrahim Anli
Yeah. Thank you. And,
00:11:23:04 - 00:11:32:21
Ibrahim Anli
just a note of of gratitude and acknowledgment of two braver angels, which has truly been this welcoming,
00:11:32:21 - 00:11:43:04
Ibrahim Anli
not only welcoming, but really well functioning home at that, at this moment of intense effort to to retell
00:11:43:04 - 00:11:59:17
Ibrahim Anli
the story of this country and who we are and what as a country, as a society, we have stood for and we should be standing for moving forward, what we want to leave to our children and and more particularly into my story.
00:11:59:19 - 00:12:04:17
Ibrahim Anli
Yes, I was born and raised overseas and spent my formative years,
00:12:04:17 - 00:12:16:19
Ibrahim Anli
away from the US. Though I was always very closely exposed because I was fortunate to have a large cohort of American teachers at my school.
00:12:16:19 - 00:12:30:05
Ibrahim Anli
And as a teenager and, and after those years, basically, I don't think I had any, any week without something connected to or from or related to,
00:12:30:05 - 00:12:33:14
Ibrahim Anli
United States in my professional role as,
00:12:33:14 - 00:12:37:03
Ibrahim Anli
as in nonprofit work and frequently,
00:12:37:03 - 00:12:39:08
Ibrahim Anli
visiting the US and also,
00:12:39:08 - 00:12:41:06
Ibrahim Anli
studying here in the past,
00:12:41:06 - 00:12:43:02
Ibrahim Anli
as an international student.
00:12:43:04 - 00:12:43:22
Ibrahim Anli
But,
00:12:43:22 - 00:12:45:21
Ibrahim Anli
this story is,
00:12:45:21 - 00:12:56:13
Ibrahim Anli
unique. So it's like fingers. They're all fingers, but they have all their unique fingerprints. I think my story is one. So it's it's just the story of,
00:12:56:13 - 00:13:10:10
Ibrahim Anli
another individual who, as you said, chooses this country to as as his home and to a very large number of countries in the world.
00:13:10:12 - 00:13:12:14
Ibrahim Anli
This whole idea of,
00:13:12:14 - 00:13:24:04
Ibrahim Anli
adopting that country as your home is a lot of technicalities. It's a matter of technicalities. It's not a matter of story or identity.
00:13:24:04 - 00:13:27:07
Ibrahim Anli
Even if that happens, that that happens in,
00:13:27:07 - 00:13:35:14
Ibrahim Anli
multiple generations. Not in the case of the United States. It is this living contract,
00:13:35:14 - 00:13:37:21
Ibrahim Anli
way beyond technicalities,
00:13:37:21 - 00:13:45:22
Ibrahim Anli
and, that you choose to be part of, to uphold and to, to, to and you believe it.
00:13:46:00 - 00:13:55:19
Ibrahim Anli
So, and as a, as a reference to our larger conversations nowadays, that's one reason that,
00:13:55:19 - 00:13:58:02
Ibrahim Anli
immigration is, is,
00:13:58:02 - 00:14:11:21
Ibrahim Anli
part of the strength, the drive, the, the, the wonderful story of this country. And it's because of its such unique role. It has been part of the challenge. So that's again,
00:14:11:21 - 00:14:14:23
Ibrahim Anli
quite specific to very few countries.
00:14:15:01 - 00:14:20:13
Ibrahim Anli
And to me, it means being part of this,
00:14:20:13 - 00:14:24:12
Ibrahim Anli
wider contract. Some part of it is,
00:14:24:12 - 00:14:30:12
Ibrahim Anli
is codified, such as the Constitution and some other parts of it is,
00:14:30:12 - 00:14:37:03
Ibrahim Anli
is a is a civic creed. That's how I would put it. And
00:14:37:03 - 00:14:43:23
Ibrahim Anli
Braver Angels, for example, has been very successful because it is helping people.
00:14:43:23 - 00:14:52:19
Ibrahim Anli
During this time of maybe soul searching, reconnect with that whole idea of civic creed, of who we are.
00:14:52:21 - 00:14:53:08
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah.
00:14:53:08 - 00:14:55:22
Wilk Wilkinson
so talk to me then a little bit more,
00:14:55:22 - 00:14:57:09
Wilk Wilkinson
about and then I'll, and then I'll get
00:14:57:09 - 00:14:59:12
Wilk Wilkinson
your input on this Will, but
00:14:59:12 - 00:15:01:12
Wilk Wilkinson
talk to me a little bit about,
00:15:01:12 - 00:15:08:05
Wilk Wilkinson
you said a couple of things like civic creed and living contract that that really,
00:15:08:05 - 00:15:10:05
Wilk Wilkinson
I, I would just love to know,
00:15:10:05 - 00:15:13:05
Wilk Wilkinson
when you talk about things like that, what what does that mean?
00:15:13:05 - 00:15:14:14
Wilk Wilkinson
And, and how,
00:15:14:14 - 00:15:15:20
Wilk Wilkinson
what is,
00:15:15:20 - 00:15:17:16
Wilk Wilkinson
what is our responsibility as
00:15:17:16 - 00:15:24:07
Wilk Wilkinson
native born Americans in that? And then what is your responsibility as somebody who's, who's come to this country,
00:15:24:07 - 00:15:27:12
Wilk Wilkinson
to to be part of that?
00:15:27:14 - 00:15:35:20
Ibrahim Anli
Yeah, this, this idea of living contract. Of course, we can have multiple versions of wording it and approaching it, but,
00:15:35:20 - 00:15:46:22
Ibrahim Anli
the, the Founding Fathers, in my understanding, highlighted a vision that in practice was,
00:15:46:22 - 00:15:49:13
Ibrahim Anli
trusted to people to be,
00:15:49:13 - 00:16:01:12
Ibrahim Anli
traveled towards constantly. That's why it's a living contract. It's been reinterpreted and retold almost by every generation.
00:16:01:14 - 00:16:02:02
Ibrahim Anli
And,
00:16:02:02 - 00:16:17:21
Ibrahim Anli
like speaking of Americans religious history, I remember hearing a comment what? It was primarily Protestants who started the country and then those who came and protested them, and those who came afterwards protested them. But,
00:16:17:21 - 00:16:24:07
Ibrahim Anli
speaking of the larger public sphere, it was this living contract. And I'll quote,
00:16:24:07 - 00:16:41:20
Ibrahim Anli
Alexis de Tocqueville, maybe not in an exact word form, but he says the the greatest strength of Americans is their ability and willingness to to face their shortcomings, to encounter their shortcomings.
00:16:41:22 - 00:16:43:15
Ibrahim Anli
That is being just,
00:16:43:15 - 00:16:44:23
Ibrahim Anli
such,
00:16:44:23 - 00:16:50:05
Ibrahim Anli
a profound part of this story. So,
00:16:50:05 - 00:16:56:22
Ibrahim Anli
and and that should also mean if we are talking about a living contract,
00:16:56:22 - 00:17:01:09
Ibrahim Anli
a sense of continuity together with a sense of connection.
00:17:01:09 - 00:17:10:16
Ibrahim Anli
So our our search, in my opinion, should not mean, just adventurous,
00:17:10:16 - 00:17:14:01
Ibrahim Anli
disconnection with, with with the story.
00:17:14:06 - 00:17:22:08
Ibrahim Anli
This is our story. With ups and downs, with moments that we can be proud of and with other moments that we cannot but,
00:17:22:08 - 00:17:23:20
Ibrahim Anli
that's how,
00:17:23:20 - 00:17:28:09
Ibrahim Anli
I think it's, it has evolved and it it should be evolving. Just,
00:17:28:09 - 00:17:33:09
Ibrahim Anli
we should be traveling with this sense of incompleteness.
00:17:33:09 - 00:17:33:20
Ibrahim Anli
And
00:17:33:20 - 00:17:37:01
Ibrahim Anli
which I believe again, has been this,
00:17:37:01 - 00:17:58:15
Ibrahim Anli
productive cycle since the time of the Founding Fathers and, and with, with the living Creed I'm referring to maybe more or less contractual, but more relational parts of it, that the sense of people who that's beyond mechanics and it, it did exist.
00:17:58:17 - 00:18:03:16
Ibrahim Anli
The, this country wouldn't have been around if, hadn't if that didn't exist.
00:18:03:18 - 00:18:08:00
Wilk Wilkinson
Right. Right now and will so so when we think about that,
00:18:08:00 - 00:18:15:01
Wilk Wilkinson
that living contract that, that that America is, is, is a constantly evolving thing. And,
00:18:15:01 - 00:18:17:16
Wilk Wilkinson
we are constantly working through,
00:18:17:16 - 00:18:19:23
Wilk Wilkinson
new challenges or,
00:18:19:23 - 00:18:22:08
Wilk Wilkinson
being willing to,
00:18:22:08 - 00:18:24:07
Wilk Wilkinson
to step up and accept our,
00:18:24:07 - 00:18:25:04
Wilk Wilkinson
our problems
00:18:25:04 - 00:18:27:05
Wilk Wilkinson
and work through those together.
00:18:27:07 - 00:18:33:12
Wilk Wilkinson
And so talk, talk to me a little bit about how you see that in terms of,
00:18:33:12 - 00:18:40:10
Wilk Wilkinson
the civic creed and what we are trying to do here that is, is fairly uniquely American.
00:18:40:12 - 00:18:47:04
Will Harwood
Yeah. I mean, I think just going back to actually something that Ibrahim said, just as we were kind of talking through the idea of this, is that,
00:18:47:04 - 00:18:52:04
Will Harwood
we have to make this work and we do make this work. So I think that there's a fundamental,
00:18:52:04 - 00:18:59:14
Will Harwood
optimism and sense of we rise to our challenges, whatever those are, as a country, and we find our way through.
00:18:59:16 - 00:19:00:11
Will Harwood
And,
00:19:00:11 - 00:19:08:17
Will Harwood
to me, that is a that's a fundamental American spirit, right? Like we're going to be able to get through whatever the challenges are. Now, today with polarization, I always say,
00:19:08:17 - 00:19:15:09
Will Harwood
we don't we don't choose. No American generation has ever sat down and chosen the challenges that it's confronting.
00:19:15:09 - 00:19:17:03
Will Harwood
But always we've risen to them.
00:19:17:03 - 00:19:24:23
Will Harwood
And that goes back to beating the biggest empire in the world for our founders or for at our founding. The revolution to the Civil War,
00:19:24:23 - 00:19:26:02
Will Harwood
and to the,
00:19:26:02 - 00:19:32:08
Will Harwood
the defining wars of the 20th century and every other social movement that's come through. We find our way through,
00:19:32:08 - 00:19:38:11
Will Harwood
and I think that that is a kind of an attitude that we have that we have to maintain and, and,
00:19:38:11 - 00:19:41:22
Will Harwood
and making sure that we can find the productive ways to do that.
00:19:41:22 - 00:19:53:00
Will Harwood
The way we have to do that is to talk to each other and to be able to have these direct conversations about important topics that we're able to chart the right course. But,
00:19:53:00 - 00:19:55:03
Will Harwood
when I think about, well, the,
00:19:55:03 - 00:20:00:12
Will Harwood
this question of, of American civics and,
00:20:00:12 - 00:20:08:09
Will Harwood
the civic contract that we have and then also the founding ideals of the country with the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence.
00:20:08:11 - 00:20:18:15
Will Harwood
Those are ones where to me, when I when we talk about our challenges, I think that one of our greatest challenges is that we're not as grounded in those as we need to be. We don't have as much of a sense of,
00:20:18:15 - 00:20:20:12
Will Harwood
that that grounding,
00:20:20:12 - 00:20:22:20
Will Harwood
civic education, if you will.
00:20:22:20 - 00:20:34:13
Will Harwood
That allows us to be confident in what we are and when you when you lack of confidence from that knowledge, I think it can be things can go off the rails.
00:20:34:13 - 00:20:42:18
Will Harwood
So I think part of the challenge that we have to do today is also ground ourselves so that we have that shared understanding of what the civic culture needs to be,
00:20:42:18 - 00:20:44:20
Will Harwood
and how we can set that forward.
00:20:44:20 - 00:20:46:19
Will Harwood
And to me that,
00:20:46:19 - 00:20:52:11
Will Harwood
that's part of this conversation here is that we all need to reassert and engage as much as we can,
00:20:52:11 - 00:21:01:03
Will Harwood
to help us unpack that so we can come to that shared understanding of what what American civic obligations are that we have and so forth.
00:21:01:03 - 00:21:04:01
Wilk Wilkinson
So so I have a question for both of you then. So,
00:21:04:01 - 00:21:11:13
Wilk Wilkinson
when we think about those, those obligations and what we as, as Americans,
00:21:11:13 - 00:21:18:05
Wilk Wilkinson
which I think we all agree this, this thing that we have in America is, is pretty unique to the United States of America.
00:21:18:05 - 00:21:24:17
Wilk Wilkinson
so when we think about those things, what are our obligations then?
00:21:24:17 - 00:21:26:03
Wilk Wilkinson
And I'll start with you,
00:21:26:03 - 00:21:28:21
Wilk Wilkinson
Will, when we,
00:21:28:21 - 00:21:33:16
Wilk Wilkinson
we see that a lot of times today,
00:21:33:16 - 00:21:34:21
Wilk Wilkinson
especially in,
00:21:34:21 - 00:21:43:01
Wilk Wilkinson
in the more populist era and the things where, where our politics seem to go by the whims of whoever seems to be in office at the time,
00:21:43:01 - 00:21:48:21
Wilk Wilkinson
what are our obligations as a citizen when it comes to the civic creed, the
00:21:48:21 - 00:21:51:21
Wilk Wilkinson
civic contract?
00:21:51:23 - 00:21:58:07
Wilk Wilkinson
Just we'll talk about that real quick for me. And then I want to turn that question over to Ibrahim.
00:21:58:09 - 00:22:20:07
Will Harwood
So I think that we need to keep a focus on we all have our own personal stories and our personal identities, which are unique to us like nobody else. Just as Ibrahim said, it's a fingerprint. We're each our own fingerprint. And that goes back to our stories, our families, our histories. How we got to where we are and we,
00:22:20:07 - 00:22:21:10
Will Harwood
take pride in those.
00:22:21:10 - 00:22:24:11
Will Harwood
That's that's integral to our identity.
00:22:24:11 - 00:22:31:23
Will Harwood
And we each have those and that individualism, I think is, is fundamental to this country. We're free to choose what we want to do,
00:22:31:23 - 00:22:35:20
Will Harwood
and how we want to live, and how we want to pursue our happiness.
00:22:35:20 - 00:22:46:12
Will Harwood
I think also we need to keep in mind that that's the personal level, but we also have to have the higher level, which is the thing that the glue that binds us.
00:22:46:14 - 00:22:47:01
Will Harwood
And,
00:22:47:01 - 00:22:49:06
Will Harwood
and I think that that's formed,
00:22:49:06 - 00:22:52:18
Will Harwood
to go back to your concept of subsidiarity,
00:22:52:18 - 00:22:56:05
Will Harwood
that's formed at the basic level in the family,
00:22:56:05 - 00:23:06:13
Will Harwood
where we have a shared expectations in any family that you live in and then up to the community and then up to the nation, and then perhaps even at some level.
00:23:06:13 - 00:23:13:20
Will Harwood
And it and then and there's a level above that which is a little bit more nebulous, which is a civilizational level. And,
00:23:13:20 - 00:23:26:22
Will Harwood
so we need to kind of be aware of what are those things that ground us and hold us together. And, and for me, the founding documents, the Constitution, these principles that we live by.
00:23:26:22 - 00:23:28:08
Will Harwood
Those are,
00:23:28:08 - 00:23:30:02
Will Harwood
our gifts to us.
00:23:30:04 - 00:23:36:08
Will Harwood
And those are things that hold us all together. We have to learn to love them and learn to know them. And,
00:23:36:08 - 00:23:38:20
Will Harwood
to me, that's the thing that will bind us all together, which is the,
00:23:38:20 - 00:23:44:11
Will Harwood
the the, the really formal contract that we have together to understand that so it can live through us.
00:23:44:13 - 00:23:47:07
Wilk Wilkinson
Sure. And, Ibrahim, what would you well,
00:23:47:07 - 00:23:51:23
Wilk Wilkinson
what would you say? That that our obligations as individuals are,
00:23:51:23 - 00:23:57:12
Wilk Wilkinson
within that civic contract and, and how that works for you?
00:23:57:14 - 00:23:57:23
Ibrahim Anli
I'll,
00:23:57:23 - 00:24:02:03
Ibrahim Anli
I'll quote Benjamin Franklin this time. So after the,
00:24:02:03 - 00:24:03:05
Ibrahim Anli
continental,
00:24:03:05 - 00:24:05:02
Ibrahim Anli
after the continental,
00:24:05:02 - 00:24:08:09
Ibrahim Anli
committee was that was that the committee that young man.
00:24:08:10 - 00:24:08:19
Wilk Wilkinson
Okay.
00:24:08:19 - 00:24:10:19
Ibrahim Anli
And he was asked. So,
00:24:10:19 - 00:24:13:13
Ibrahim Anli
so what what happened? So did you,
00:24:13:13 - 00:24:21:00
Ibrahim Anli
start a, what did you achieve? What did you come out with? He said, a republic, if you can keep it. So,
00:24:21:00 - 00:24:27:11
Ibrahim Anli
so this we spoke about this country's ability to to look at the mirror,
00:24:27:11 - 00:24:33:20
Ibrahim Anli
courageously. This is of course, we are not discount the government is not a church.
00:24:33:21 - 00:24:35:14
Ibrahim Anli
But it bought this,
00:24:35:14 - 00:24:40:13
Ibrahim Anli
strength borrows a lot this concept of from this concept of repentance.
00:24:40:13 - 00:24:45:13
Ibrahim Anli
And it's, it's it's this concept applied in to public sphere,
00:24:45:13 - 00:24:52:08
Ibrahim Anli
in a very productive form. And seeing your shortcomings and struggling to address them. And,
00:24:52:10 - 00:25:03:04
Ibrahim Anli
for this particular question, there might be multiple answers. It's really a 360 thing, but all I want to talk about this idea of,
00:25:03:04 - 00:25:04:16
Ibrahim Anli
similar to Wills point,
00:25:04:16 - 00:25:10:11
Ibrahim Anli
those foundational liberties, particularly the First Amendment.
00:25:10:13 - 00:25:11:13
Ibrahim Anli
So,
00:25:11:13 - 00:25:28:21
Ibrahim Anli
again, in a, in a religious with a some religious flavor, we can say that God does not cancel. And we should maintain we should be able to maintain this, maximalist, profound,
00:25:28:21 - 00:25:30:01
Ibrahim Anli
open,
00:25:30:01 - 00:25:38:09
Ibrahim Anli
way of understanding what the First Amendment means. This on on the paper, it's it's, of course,
00:25:38:09 - 00:25:41:04
Ibrahim Anli
a legal, binding, constitutional,
00:25:41:04 - 00:25:42:15
Ibrahim Anli
statement.
00:25:42:17 - 00:25:48:11
Ibrahim Anli
But it's repercussions is is way beyond that. If you want to see,
00:25:48:11 - 00:25:57:06
Ibrahim Anli
Cutting-Edge articles being published and generated, uphold that principle. If you want to see scientific advance,
00:25:57:06 - 00:26:12:12
Ibrahim Anli
uphold that principle. Maintain. And don't even let a even the smallest dent being opened into First Amendment. If you want to see quality art coming out from our country.
00:26:12:14 - 00:26:29:10
Ibrahim Anli
And, and if you want to see more symbols on the street, I think, yes, even that, maybe not immediately, visibly, directly, but even that is connected to really very jealously upholding our First Amendment.
00:26:29:10 - 00:26:30:03
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah.
00:26:30:03 - 00:26:35:23
Wilk Wilkinson
I think that's, that's incredibly important. So, so with that then Ibrahim,
00:26:35:23 - 00:26:37:18
Wilk Wilkinson
because I know,
00:26:37:18 - 00:26:39:02
Wilk Wilkinson
in your past from,
00:26:39:02 - 00:26:40:20
Wilk Wilkinson
speaking with you before,
00:26:40:20 - 00:26:43:07
Wilk Wilkinson
you've lived in places you've come from,
00:26:43:07 - 00:26:46:06
Wilk Wilkinson
a background of living in places where,
00:26:46:06 - 00:26:50:16
Wilk Wilkinson
where there was persecution and, whether it be religious persecution
00:26:50:16 - 00:26:52:09
Wilk Wilkinson
or being persecuted for
00:26:52:09 - 00:26:54:18
Wilk Wilkinson
what you've said or,
00:26:54:18 - 00:26:57:16
Wilk Wilkinson
cultural differences and, and things like that.
00:26:57:16 - 00:27:01:06
Wilk Wilkinson
So, so let's take our conversation then into,
00:27:01:06 - 00:27:18:03
Wilk Wilkinson
how that, I guess, how that worked for you, how those things were a part of your past and how they became the catalyst for you ultimately moving your family here and establishing a life here.
00:27:18:03 - 00:27:24:11
Wilk Wilkinson
So so there really is a huge importance to the concept of,
00:27:24:11 - 00:27:28:00
Wilk Wilkinson
religious pluralism, cultural pluralism.
00:27:28:02 - 00:27:30:19
Wilk Wilkinson
And, and this was the place you chose to,
00:27:30:19 - 00:27:32:14
Wilk Wilkinson
find that and,
00:27:32:14 - 00:27:39:19
Wilk Wilkinson
expand upon that for your family. So, so let's, let's kind of transition our conversation there and then,
00:27:39:19 - 00:27:43:16
Wilk Wilkinson
and then I'd welcome Will's feedback on on how that works.
00:27:43:16 - 00:27:48:21
Wilk Wilkinson
And, and how he sees, sees that. So, so talk to us a little bit about that, Ibrahim.
00:27:48:21 - 00:27:58:00
Wilk Wilkinson
Religious pluralism. Cultural pluralism and and and what what about America made made those things?
00:27:58:00 - 00:28:00:02
Wilk Wilkinson
have you for you.
00:28:00:04 - 00:28:08:21
Ibrahim Anli
I was blessed to be involved in I was born and raised in Turkey, grew up in Istanbul, and I was blessed to be,
00:28:08:21 - 00:28:21:17
Ibrahim Anli
involved with, with as, as full time staff and in several roles, at the, at the journalists and writers Foundation, which was Turkey's modern Turkey's first,
00:28:21:17 - 00:28:24:00
Ibrahim Anli
publicly visible,
00:28:24:00 - 00:28:26:14
Ibrahim Anli
registered interfaith
00:28:26:14 - 00:28:27:16
Ibrahim Anli
platform,
00:28:27:16 - 00:28:30:23
Ibrahim Anli
that emerged in the mid 90s.
00:28:31:01 - 00:28:47:01
Ibrahim Anli
And I joined, of course, maybe a decade later. And up until that moment, this notion and understanding towards non-Muslim minorities had really a huge baggage of,
00:28:47:01 - 00:28:55:18
Ibrahim Anli
medieval and early modern political struggles and the times of colonization and imperial,
00:28:55:18 - 00:28:59:09
Ibrahim Anli
imperial competitions and rivalry. So,
00:28:59:09 - 00:29:00:21
Ibrahim Anli
the those
00:29:00:21 - 00:29:14:03
Ibrahim Anli
minorities, predominantly Christian and Jewish minorities, were looked through those multiple lenses of, of historical baggage which created a climate of,
00:29:14:03 - 00:29:21:16
Ibrahim Anli
suspicion and, and denial and, and, skepticism towards those people.
00:29:21:18 - 00:29:23:05
Ibrahim Anli
So it was,
00:29:23:05 - 00:29:27:07
Ibrahim Anli
really a very securitized way of looking at religious,
00:29:27:07 - 00:29:51:16
Ibrahim Anli
diversity. And then the foundation emerged and took very courageous steps to bringing together those people around the iftar table to celebrate Ramadan. So it really shifted the weight of people's looking at it. And many people started saying that, well, these these are just as we are, are inherently,
00:29:51:16 - 00:29:54:18
Ibrahim Anli
belonging people of the same country.
00:29:54:20 - 00:30:03:15
Ibrahim Anli
And in fact, many of them were here before we were even here. So it really started shifting these terms and then,
00:30:03:15 - 00:30:06:09
Ibrahim Anli
became nearly a mainstream,
00:30:06:09 - 00:30:12:18
Ibrahim Anli
way of thinking for quite a long time. But, that maybe wasn't,
00:30:12:18 - 00:30:15:10
Ibrahim Anli
maintained ideally. And then there was
00:30:15:10 - 00:30:18:00
Ibrahim Anli
a change of political climate and,
00:30:18:00 - 00:30:24:18
Ibrahim Anli
and this time there were, there were political ambitions to, to bring a religious flavor,
00:30:24:18 - 00:30:27:16
Ibrahim Anli
into the country's identity and,
00:30:27:16 - 00:30:36:03
Ibrahim Anli
and kind of, sort of what, people in the Western Academy especially have called kind of a political Islam,
00:30:36:03 - 00:30:40:07
Ibrahim Anli
Islam as a political doctrine rather than as a matter of,
00:30:40:07 - 00:30:41:16
Ibrahim Anli
choice and faith.
00:30:41:18 - 00:30:42:04
Ibrahim Anli
And,
00:30:42:04 - 00:30:43:09
Ibrahim Anli
I was among,
00:30:43:09 - 00:30:47:13
Ibrahim Anli
a cohort of people who opposed this idea, and that's
00:30:47:13 - 00:30:47:21
Ibrahim Anli
why
00:30:47:21 - 00:30:49:11
Ibrahim Anli
we ended up being,
00:30:49:11 - 00:30:53:04
Ibrahim Anli
persecuted and eventually displaced. But,
00:30:53:04 - 00:31:04:22
Ibrahim Anli
this, this is my immediate personal example. And I'll give you a larger observation. So as I was,
00:31:04:22 - 00:31:08:14
Ibrahim Anli
growing up in, in, in Turkey in, in,
00:31:08:14 - 00:31:14:14
Ibrahim Anli
90s, that was a time of aggressive secularism.
00:31:14:16 - 00:31:24:10
Ibrahim Anli
And when Turkish students were coming to the United States to study, they were amazed with the religious,
00:31:24:10 - 00:31:28:19
Ibrahim Anli
freedom they were given to, to perform their,
00:31:28:19 - 00:31:29:16
Ibrahim Anli
religious,
00:31:29:16 - 00:31:46:20
Ibrahim Anli
obligations for the girls to be able to cover their head. And this not being even an issue during the same decades when students from Iran were coming to the United States, they were amazed with the freedom to uncover their hats.
00:31:46:22 - 00:32:23:21
Ibrahim Anli
So two neighboring countries, Muslim majority countries, one was applying an aggressive form of secularism in total disrespect of personal liberty. The other one was executing an aggressive form of theocracy, again with total disregard of individual with. And these people were coming to the same country and one was celebrating the ability to observe freedom, and the other one was celebrating the ability to not to be imposed with religious practices.
00:32:23:21 - 00:32:30:09
Ibrahim Anli
So and that that's the United States. This whole idea of,
00:32:30:09 - 00:32:34:05
Ibrahim Anli
separation, very carefully crafted and,
00:32:34:05 - 00:32:45:04
Ibrahim Anli
of course, no human machine is perfect, but in maintained in an exemplary form that can still inspire many corners of the world.
00:32:45:22 - 00:32:46:20
Wilk Wilkinson
So we'll
00:32:46:20 - 00:32:51:10
Wilk Wilkinson
as you're listening to, to this and, and there's,
00:32:51:10 - 00:32:56:23
Wilk Wilkinson
I hear this story and, and, and and it definitely
00:32:56:23 - 00:32:58:22
Wilk Wilkinson
it as an American,
00:32:58:22 - 00:33:04:00
Wilk Wilkinson
somebody who's born, who was born here, who has not experienced those types of things.
00:33:04:00 - 00:33:09:14
Wilk Wilkinson
I also know that I've, I've seen a lot of people within our country,
00:33:09:14 - 00:33:15:04
Wilk Wilkinson
that, that are skeptical when when we start talking about,
00:33:15:04 - 00:33:16:13
Wilk Wilkinson
terms like,
00:33:16:13 - 00:33:21:05
Wilk Wilkinson
religious pluralism, cultural pluralism, bringing in,
00:33:21:05 - 00:33:24:17
Wilk Wilkinson
migrants from from regions that were,
00:33:24:17 - 00:33:26:05
Wilk Wilkinson
experiencing,
00:33:26:05 - 00:33:29:16
Wilk Wilkinson
theocratic dictatorships and things like that.
00:33:29:18 - 00:33:31:21
Wilk Wilkinson
Talk to me about,
00:33:31:21 - 00:33:33:20
Wilk Wilkinson
your reaction to,
00:33:33:20 - 00:33:36:07
Wilk Wilkinson
to to the persecution,
00:33:36:07 - 00:33:50:22
Wilk Wilkinson
that that Ibrahim and his family have experienced. And then what you see going on in America today in terms of that and and what the I guess what the. What that skepticism,
00:33:50:22 - 00:33:54:18
Wilk Wilkinson
is rooted in or what you believe that skepticism might be rooted in.
00:33:54:18 - 00:33:57:22
Will Harwood
Sure. So my going back to I,
00:33:57:22 - 00:34:00:06
Will Harwood
I spent a lot of time in Wisconsin growing up,
00:34:00:06 - 00:34:00:17
Will Harwood
for,
00:34:00:17 - 00:34:05:04
Will Harwood
Thanksgiving. That was we always did our Thanksgiving at my grandma's house, and my grandma,
00:34:05:04 - 00:34:07:22
Will Harwood
always had this expression. She had she had a lot of expressions,
00:34:07:22 - 00:34:14:11
Will Harwood
but she had this one expression that was, that house guests are like fish.
00:34:14:13 - 00:34:18:17
Will Harwood
They start to smell after three days. And,
00:34:18:17 - 00:34:23:02
Will Harwood
you could look at that. That was a house guest. Every year at Thanksgiving. It's like, do you mean me?
00:34:23:02 - 00:34:23:22
Will Harwood
But it was,
00:34:23:22 - 00:34:27:02
Will Harwood
I got to get out of here. But,
00:34:27:02 - 00:34:30:07
Will Harwood
I think that there's there's some there's some wisdom into that.
00:34:30:07 - 00:34:32:08
Will Harwood
when you think about the word
00:34:32:08 - 00:34:33:07
Will Harwood
to host,
00:34:33:07 - 00:34:44:21
Will Harwood
and I know that this is something just from the bit that I've studied of, of Islam, for example, hosting is a very it's almost a sacred concept in terms of how you treat your guests and so forth.
00:34:44:22 - 00:34:46:08
Will Harwood
There's a lot of honor in it.
00:34:46:08 - 00:34:50:17
Will Harwood
But if you just look at the etymology, the history of that word to host,
00:34:50:17 - 00:34:53:01
Will Harwood
it, it has the same root,
00:34:53:01 - 00:35:00:22
Will Harwood
as hostile and the same root as hostage. And there's an element to,
00:35:00:22 - 00:35:06:23
Will Harwood
what is it that makes that your guests start to smell after three days?
00:35:07:01 - 00:35:25:15
Will Harwood
And I think that ultimately comes back to people are different. So when you're running a household, again, the norms of behavior, the expectations that you have, those are set in the household. Everyone adheres to that. As soon as you open that up, even within your own community, and you start to bring people into it, all of a sudden you're confronting people that are going to be functioning differently.
00:35:25:17 - 00:35:28:04
Will Harwood
And those differences create friction.
00:35:28:04 - 00:35:30:12
Will Harwood
And so if you take,
00:35:30:12 - 00:35:34:03
Will Harwood
your concept of subsidiarity and you extrapolate that up,
00:35:34:03 - 00:35:49:08
Will Harwood
up to the community level, up to the national level, I think that the cohesion that people experience are when there's a shared sense of behavioral norms, institutions and so forth. And when those are there's too much friction there.
00:35:49:08 - 00:35:50:22
Will Harwood
It creates that, that,
00:35:50:22 - 00:35:56:19
Will Harwood
that tension. So on the other side of my family, they came to Ohio from southern Italy,
00:35:56:19 - 00:35:57:23
Will Harwood
and that would be a
00:35:57:23 - 00:36:00:13
Will Harwood
southern Italy is a little bit different from northern Italy.
00:36:00:13 - 00:36:12:10
Will Harwood
Southern Italy has got a lot of corruption. It's a very different culture. Warm. I get a lot of my sort of religious Catholic influence from the southern Italian of my side, but,
00:36:12:10 - 00:36:16:10
Will Harwood
but it's very different, and it has elements to it that are going to be more,
00:36:16:10 - 00:36:17:14
Will Harwood
clannish and,
00:36:17:14 - 00:36:21:10
Will Harwood
and certainly with, with mafia and organized crime and so forth.
00:36:21:11 - 00:36:30:22
Will Harwood
And I can tell you that when, when the Italian southern Italians came in, that's mostly where the Italian immigrants came from. It came for opportunity. And when they came to Ohio,
00:36:30:22 - 00:36:38:05
Will Harwood
my family almost every week in the town that my great grandfather settled in,
00:36:38:05 - 00:36:40:10
Will Harwood
there were KKK rallies,
00:36:40:10 - 00:36:42:16
Will Harwood
on the main street.
00:36:42:16 - 00:36:44:14
Will Harwood
And they weren't protesting black Americans.
00:36:44:14 - 00:36:47:12
Will Harwood
They were protesting Italian Americans coming in. And,
00:36:47:12 - 00:37:06:19
Will Harwood
the the for my family, the rule was we want to become maricon maricon American. That's what they said. We want to become American. So for us, we went through a process where we, assimilation process. We left language behind. We worked as hard as we could. And and I'm very grateful for that because,
00:37:06:19 - 00:37:09:15
Will Harwood
I'm a continuation of that legacy of of assimilating.
00:37:09:15 - 00:37:14:21
Will Harwood
And for me, it's to ground myself and what these values are. But when I hear,
00:37:14:21 - 00:37:15:20
Will Harwood
Ibrahim
00:37:15:20 - 00:37:31:06
Will Harwood
speaking about his experience in Turkey and I think about sort of the tension that we're seeing right now, not just in the United States, I think we've done a relatively a better job being able to bring people in and incorporate people and making people feel from all over the world.
00:37:31:08 - 00:37:32:19
Will Harwood
Part of this,
00:37:32:19 - 00:37:33:09
Will Harwood
this,
00:37:33:09 - 00:37:37:21
Will Harwood
project, the American project, it's amazing. I'm proud of it.
00:37:37:21 - 00:37:45:00
Will Harwood
But if you look across the West and I would consider America to be founded on those enlightenment Western principles,
00:37:45:00 - 00:37:47:21
Will Harwood
there is a lot of tension between,
00:37:47:21 - 00:37:50:11
Will Harwood
Western societies and,
00:37:50:11 - 00:37:54:15
Will Harwood
and immigrants that are coming in from the Islamic world.
00:37:54:16 - 00:37:57:13
Will Harwood
And if I look across the whole of Islamic world,
00:37:57:13 - 00:38:00:14
Will Harwood
there's 40, 40 countries that are Muslim majority.
00:38:00:14 - 00:38:05:22
Will Harwood
And of those 40 countries, I think 3 or 4 are we would consider to be democracies.
00:38:05:22 - 00:38:11:18
Will Harwood
Turkey is one of them. And obviously by Ibrahim's example of being having to flee for persecution,
00:38:11:18 - 00:38:13:02
Will Harwood
the ones that are there,
00:38:13:02 - 00:38:17:17
Will Harwood
Indonesia, Morocco, Turkey, perhaps Malaysia.
00:38:17:19 - 00:38:23:04
Will Harwood
They're not exactly the model Western democracies either. So I think that,
00:38:23:04 - 00:38:30:04
Will Harwood
there's a there's a this is a question of why is it that we're seeing those that trend where there's a,
00:38:30:04 - 00:38:31:21
Will Harwood
across the,
00:38:31:21 - 00:38:42:11
Will Harwood
Islamic world, there's a, a lockdown, a move toward political Islam, which then ends up stifling out, the pluralism that we're describing.
00:38:42:13 - 00:38:45:12
Will Harwood
And how do we make sure that,
00:38:45:12 - 00:39:02:01
Will Harwood
when we're doing an integration? And this is certainly true of the United States, but it's true everywhere. How can we ensure that we're as we're as we're doing this, we make sure we make sure that that doesn't happen. Because if I look in Europe at some of the stuff that's happening in Europe, I don't necessarily see a lot of success there.
00:39:02:01 - 00:39:02:11
Will Harwood
And,
00:39:02:11 - 00:39:05:15
Will Harwood
and it's something that we need to contend with and think about.
00:39:05:17 - 00:39:10:18
Wilk Wilkinson
Oh for sure. So, so, Ibrahim, I, I just pose I mean, that the question,
00:39:10:18 - 00:39:18:00
Wilk Wilkinson
can be best answered by you is, is so when we start to thinking about are we we start thinking about the,
00:39:18:00 - 00:39:22:20
Wilk Wilkinson
the skeptical skepticism that people have and that friction that's caused by,
00:39:22:20 - 00:39:25:02
Wilk Wilkinson
the cultural pluralism or,
00:39:25:02 - 00:39:32:02
Wilk Wilkinson
or the assimilation or things or to, to, to to Will's point when we start to think about,
00:39:32:02 - 00:39:35:18
Wilk Wilkinson
some of the countries that have had issues,
00:39:35:18 - 00:39:38:08
Wilk Wilkinson
where things have not blended as well as,
00:39:38:08 - 00:39:43:03
Wilk Wilkinson
people would have hoped or what what do you suggest or what what I guess what's your
00:39:43:03 - 00:39:46:11
Wilk Wilkinson
reaction to that? And, and and what do you think?
00:39:46:11 - 00:39:48:10
Wilk Wilkinson
the solution is
00:39:48:10 - 00:39:58:06
Wilk Wilkinson
or some solutions are to that particular problem. And how do we quell some of that, that skepticism.
00:39:58:08 - 00:40:04:20
Ibrahim Anli
Yeah. This has several layers. One that pertains to overseas of those,
00:40:04:20 - 00:40:11:21
Ibrahim Anli
home countries, if you will. And then it's, it's what, what it means in, in, in the US context.
00:40:11:21 - 00:40:15:04
Ibrahim Anli
But in a, in a, in a larger,
00:40:15:04 - 00:40:16:04
Ibrahim Anli
sense,
00:40:16:04 - 00:40:17:05
Ibrahim Anli
there are those,
00:40:17:05 - 00:40:19:21
Ibrahim Anli
structural issues that,
00:40:19:21 - 00:40:22:07
Ibrahim Anli
Muslim majority countries have been,
00:40:22:07 - 00:40:26:12
Ibrahim Anli
struggling with. And, one of them,
00:40:26:12 - 00:40:30:05
Ibrahim Anli
among several key issues is what some,
00:40:30:05 - 00:40:31:22
Ibrahim Anli
have called have,
00:40:31:22 - 00:40:33:23
Ibrahim Anli
identified as,
00:40:33:23 - 00:40:36:03
Ibrahim Anli
theological depravation.
00:40:36:04 - 00:40:44:12
Ibrahim Anli
So, there are, there are mechanisms and methodologies and, and
00:40:44:12 - 00:40:45:00
Ibrahim Anli
and,
00:40:45:00 - 00:40:46:18
Ibrahim Anli
ways of reasoning,
00:40:46:18 - 00:41:18:13
Ibrahim Anli
in, in mainline Muslim scholarship that can enable you to address contemporary issues. And as the times change, you can reemploy those mechanisms and methodologies and come up with totally different, new answers. It's there's this sense of flexibility, but this requires, a public sphere where freedom of expression is guaranteed.
00:41:18:14 - 00:41:31:17
Ibrahim Anli
And, when you look at the, the first five centuries of Islamic history, it's you'll see that it's characterized by,
00:41:31:17 - 00:41:41:18
Ibrahim Anli
this sense of freedom of expression because more than 90% of scholars were not on government payroll.
00:41:41:18 - 00:41:43:15
Ibrahim Anli
So let that sink in.
00:41:43:15 - 00:41:44:06
Ibrahim Anli
Yeah. And,
00:41:44:06 - 00:41:47:02
Ibrahim Anli
and there was a very strong sense of,
00:41:47:02 - 00:41:48:20
Ibrahim Anli
private ownership.
00:41:48:22 - 00:41:49:21
Ibrahim Anli
It was really,
00:41:49:21 - 00:41:52:07
Ibrahim Anli
considered almost sacred. And,
00:41:52:07 - 00:41:57:09
Ibrahim Anli
power was used in a, in a rather horizontal way,
00:41:57:09 - 00:42:03:18
Ibrahim Anli
rather than an absolute monarch sitting at the top. These three characteristics of,
00:42:03:18 - 00:42:05:09
Ibrahim Anli
divided power,
00:42:05:09 - 00:42:12:13
Ibrahim Anli
strong business class and freedom of expression characterize early Islamic centuries,
00:42:12:13 - 00:42:19:21
Ibrahim Anli
so that even that the person at the very top of the political mechanism is, is not a monarch.
00:42:19:23 - 00:42:26:00
Ibrahim Anli
You can he's first among equals. He's like a chief clerk, but definitely not,
00:42:26:00 - 00:42:26:23
Ibrahim Anli
an absolute,
00:42:26:23 - 00:42:37:00
Ibrahim Anli
authority. So, this when you compare the institutional structures with, with, the, the challenges today,
00:42:37:00 - 00:42:41:17
Ibrahim Anli
many of those countries have gatekeepers, the institutions,
00:42:41:17 - 00:42:45:10
Ibrahim Anli
that control the debate. So that creates,
00:42:45:10 - 00:42:49:22
Ibrahim Anli
this what people call the theological depravation.
00:42:49:22 - 00:42:51:22
Ibrahim Anli
And if you are not,
00:42:51:22 - 00:43:07:13
Ibrahim Anli
able to duly respond quickly, respond with satisfying answers and approaches of the times to respond to the zeitgeist, if you will, then people will come up there with their makeshift,
00:43:07:13 - 00:43:16:14
Ibrahim Anli
responses and explanations, and many of them will be very reductionist, and some of those reductionist will be very exclusivist.
00:43:16:16 - 00:43:22:08
Ibrahim Anli
And some of those exclusivist ideas will be even while. So,
00:43:22:08 - 00:43:24:09
Ibrahim Anli
that's one important,
00:43:24:09 - 00:43:37:01
Ibrahim Anli
challenge in the, in the current status quo that characterizes a large spectrum of, of those countries. And if you compare it, for example, to what we have in the United States,
00:43:37:01 - 00:43:44:20
Ibrahim Anli
most of the best publications, in my opinion, about Islamic history and contemporary,
00:43:44:20 - 00:43:53:04
Ibrahim Anli
Muslim affairs, Muslim issues, nearly all of those publications are coming out from Western countries.
00:43:53:06 - 00:43:56:15
Ibrahim Anli
Because there is no gatekeepers to tell,
00:43:56:15 - 00:43:58:06
Ibrahim Anli
those to those,
00:43:58:06 - 00:44:07:01
Ibrahim Anli
Muslim majority authors and scholars to what to talk about or more importantly, what not to talk about. And,
00:44:07:01 - 00:44:09:09
Ibrahim Anli
if you visit,
00:44:09:09 - 00:44:11:00
Ibrahim Anli
an American masjid,
00:44:11:00 - 00:44:25:22
Ibrahim Anli
an American mosque, I find them to be much closer to original Islamic practices, for example, in terms of space allocation, because especially young women who grew up in the United States refused to pray in the basement.
00:44:26:00 - 00:44:39:13
Ibrahim Anli
They are Americans. So they refused to be have the equal treatment, which is the original Islamic practice. It was the same room, just divided not and, better room for men and
00:44:39:13 - 00:44:39:23
Ibrahim Anli
and the,
00:44:39:23 - 00:44:43:15
Ibrahim Anli
the falling apart space for women. But,
00:44:43:15 - 00:44:54:00
Ibrahim Anli
here in the US, because of this individualism and sense of liberty and personal agency, the Muslim women are more empowered.
00:44:54:02 - 00:44:55:21
Ibrahim Anli
So as you see, it's more about
00:44:55:21 - 00:44:58:05
Ibrahim Anli
institutions rather than,
00:44:58:05 - 00:45:03:18
Ibrahim Anli
identities, those who uphold those well serving institutions.
00:45:03:18 - 00:45:10:21
Ibrahim Anli
Who are successful in setting them and maintaining them, are in a better position. And,
00:45:10:21 - 00:45:11:23
Ibrahim Anli
this is not to,
00:45:11:23 - 00:45:27:22
Ibrahim Anli
underestimate the the problems that may arise when people from coming from Muslim majority countries encounter in the West upon their arrival, those,
00:45:27:22 - 00:45:28:10
Ibrahim Anli
tensions.
00:45:28:10 - 00:45:29:09
Ibrahim Anli
But because,
00:45:29:09 - 00:45:40:10
Ibrahim Anli
this this is just one explanation. This this conversation on theological depravation is just one window into a larger discussion.
00:45:40:12 - 00:45:42:07
Will Harwood
Ibrahim, if I could ask you,
00:45:42:10 - 00:45:52:20
Will Harwood
to me and I think that we're all just based on the conversation, we're all kind of have this alignment of this, we elevate our institutional,
00:45:52:20 - 00:45:55:16
Will Harwood
liberties that were given through the Constitution, this,
00:45:55:16 - 00:46:00:04
Will Harwood
freedom of speech. Being able to have these ideas is baked into what we are.
00:46:00:06 - 00:46:01:16
Will Harwood
I, I think that,
00:46:01:16 - 00:46:09:16
Will Harwood
we're we're fortunate. I think in the world, in the West, we have that really ingrained into who we are. But what I see is,
00:46:09:16 - 00:46:17:03
Will Harwood
a lack of confidence in those fundamental principles. This goes back to the civics education piece.
00:46:17:03 - 00:46:23:19
Will Harwood
to me, those if you remove those building blocks, if you will, that foundation of the country.
00:46:23:21 - 00:46:27:03
Will Harwood
We don't have the country that,
00:46:27:03 - 00:46:35:12
Will Harwood
we're dealing with an immigration problem right now where we let 20 million people come in without any vetting and through through the open border.
00:46:35:12 - 00:46:58:08
Will Harwood
But when you think about it, it's we're a country where 20 million people wanted to come. They traveled across the world to come. The building block of our success, of being able to build what we have, that so many people around the world clamor for, whether it's for liberty and freedom as Ibrahim has or it's for economic opportunity, it comes back to that fundamental institutional,
00:46:58:08 - 00:46:59:08
Will Harwood
basis.
00:46:59:10 - 00:47:18:21
Will Harwood
What do you think about our confidence in that? Because I think that we've degraded this, our sense of what needs to be what is sacred and needs to be preserved in order to continue this forward. And we sort of treat everything with cultural relativism. Okay. Well, if it's coming from in a way, it's almost the opposite. It's an inversion.
00:47:18:21 - 00:47:34:07
Will Harwood
It's to say what's coming from us is bad, and everything else from the world is good. So let's embrace those things. And I think that we need to actually make a distinction to say, actually, what we have here is the best system that's ever been created.
00:47:34:07 - 00:47:49:03
Will Harwood
It's our engine of, of of what drives us and creates the opportunity if we what's your sense of our confidence level in that and the importance of that to help us move forward and, and in the right way?
00:47:49:05 - 00:47:56:03
Ibrahim Anli
My short answer is yes. We should be more confident in in those foundations. And back to my earlier point of,
00:47:56:03 - 00:48:03:03
Ibrahim Anli
embracing tradition in a, in a form of with, with with also an equal level of
00:48:03:03 - 00:48:05:12
Ibrahim Anli
ambition for, for renewal.
00:48:05:12 - 00:48:06:16
Ibrahim Anli
Should, should be this,
00:48:06:16 - 00:48:10:07
Ibrahim Anli
productive cycle that we are we are engaged in,
00:48:10:07 - 00:48:14:10
Ibrahim Anli
this idea of continuity, rootedness.
00:48:14:12 - 00:48:16:09
Ibrahim Anli
But still yet,
00:48:16:09 - 00:48:17:18
Ibrahim Anli
openness.
00:48:17:18 - 00:48:26:06
Ibrahim Anli
So, that's that will maintain this sense of peoplehood.
00:48:26:06 - 00:48:29:22
Ibrahim Anli
That again, goes beyond the legalistic mechanic,
00:48:29:22 - 00:48:38:06
Ibrahim Anli
elements of what immigration means, what citizenship means of especially for the United States.
00:48:38:06 - 00:48:41:19
Ibrahim Anli
It's more than those legalistic and mechanic.
00:48:41:19 - 00:48:49:11
Ibrahim Anli
Elements of the story. It's way more that it's about people so that we can avoid becoming,
00:48:49:11 - 00:48:55:19
Ibrahim Anli
a confederation of disconnected communities and yes, on modern or postmodern.
00:48:55:19 - 00:48:58:00
Ibrahim Anli
Yes. Right. So on that front,
00:48:58:00 - 00:48:59:19
Ibrahim Anli
I,
00:48:59:19 - 00:49:08:14
Ibrahim Anli
as a as an observant Muslim who chose the United States as his home, who is,
00:49:08:14 - 00:49:16:14
Ibrahim Anli
here with his family and who is raising a kid with those ideas that,
00:49:16:14 - 00:49:26:02
Ibrahim Anli
are rooted in this, in the story of this country. And living out more particularities. In the meantime, I,
00:49:26:02 - 00:49:32:05
Ibrahim Anli
feel uncomfortable with this sort of, is that
00:49:32:05 - 00:49:34:15
Ibrahim Anli
the the really,
00:49:34:15 - 00:49:41:15
Ibrahim Anli
is this extreme east of, sense of total departure?
00:49:41:17 - 00:49:51:05
Ibrahim Anli
And and the sense of total dumping of, of the foundations, foundational elements of, of the story,
00:49:51:05 - 00:49:52:20
Ibrahim Anli
of this country,
00:49:52:20 - 00:49:54:10
Ibrahim Anli
this
00:49:54:10 - 00:49:55:01
Ibrahim Anli
again,
00:49:55:01 - 00:49:56:16
Ibrahim Anli
I call it a form of,
00:49:56:16 - 00:49:58:12
Ibrahim Anli
adventurism, but,
00:49:58:12 - 00:50:04:12
Ibrahim Anli
we need an anchor. Without an anchor.
00:50:04:12 - 00:50:09:13
Ibrahim Anli
Our the the this profound openness and,
00:50:09:13 - 00:50:17:07
Ibrahim Anli
welcoming character that is, is testified across the story of the US.
00:50:17:09 - 00:50:20:11
Ibrahim Anli
Will not be a strength,
00:50:20:11 - 00:50:29:16
Ibrahim Anli
without an anchor. There should be something, that that binds us around the sense of people hood and,
00:50:29:16 - 00:50:41:20
Ibrahim Anli
and I think that will not make anyone compromised from feeling who they are. And they're sense of attachment to their roots,
00:50:41:20 - 00:50:44:20
Ibrahim Anli
their cultures, their faiths.
00:50:44:20 - 00:50:48:20
Ibrahim Anli
It's not an either or thing, but I, I agree that,
00:50:48:20 - 00:50:56:08
Ibrahim Anli
we are, we should be more appreciative of the,
00:50:56:08 - 00:50:57:21
Ibrahim Anli
of the treasure we are sitting on.
00:50:58:02 - 00:50:58:18
Will Harwood
Yes.
00:50:58:20 - 00:50:59:08
Ibrahim Anli
Yeah.
00:50:59:10 - 00:51:18:17
Wilk Wilkinson
So that that actually goes to to a question that I was just thinking about, as you were saying that and, and, and I think you kind of answered it, but I want to dive into that, just a little bit more as, as we get close to the end of our time, guys, the, the idea of is it possible then, Ibrahim, to,
00:51:18:17 - 00:51:19:23
Wilk Wilkinson
you talked about an anchor
00:51:19:23 - 00:51:25:09
Wilk Wilkinson
or getting people to understand what a treasure that we're sitting on.
00:51:25:11 - 00:51:34:18
Wilk Wilkinson
Is it possible? And this is a question that it keeps on coming back to for me. And and I know that I've heard other people say that. Is there a way to,
00:51:34:18 - 00:51:35:23
Wilk Wilkinson
kind of promote,
00:51:35:23 - 00:51:37:10
Wilk Wilkinson
promote that,
00:51:37:10 - 00:51:39:08
Wilk Wilkinson
cultural pluralism,
00:51:39:16 - 00:51:45:15
Wilk Wilkinson
people of the Muslim faith bring to the United States, but also then increase,
00:51:45:15 - 00:51:52:00
Wilk Wilkinson
some of that confidence that Will was talking about decrease that skepticism that people have.
00:51:52:02 - 00:51:54:10
Wilk Wilkinson
I mean, we talk about things that were happening,
00:51:54:10 - 00:51:55:11
Wilk Wilkinson
back in the,
00:51:55:11 - 00:51:58:23
Wilk Wilkinson
the, the early or 1900s, let's say, when, when,
00:51:58:23 - 00:52:01:04
Wilk Wilkinson
there was mass immigration from,
00:52:01:04 - 00:52:20:02
Wilk Wilkinson
from the Irish or the Italians and things like that. And, and how those families really pushed for that assimilation and in future generations and now that that cultural assimilation, while there's, there's still a cultural piece from those,
00:52:20:02 - 00:52:24:16
Wilk Wilkinson
people in the background of those families, they're, they're uniquely American.
00:52:24:16 - 00:52:32:19
Wilk Wilkinson
Now, is there any way, Ibrahim, to to keep that anchor in,
00:52:32:19 - 00:52:36:03
Wilk Wilkinson
the Muslim faith, have that cultural,
00:52:36:03 - 00:52:50:08
Wilk Wilkinson
pluralism, but also have a certain degree of assimilation where, we are we are starting to gather or coming together, in, in mutual appreciation of that treasure.
00:52:50:08 - 00:52:55:13
Wilk Wilkinson
I'll get both your guys's answers on that, and then we'll probably be just about to the end of our time.
00:52:55:13 - 00:52:57:15
Wilk Wilkinson
Man, this is going fast.
00:52:57:17 - 00:53:01:03
Ibrahim Anli
This, to a great extent,
00:53:01:03 - 00:53:05:18
Ibrahim Anli
it's unfortunately maybe immediately not visible, but to,
00:53:05:18 - 00:53:16:21
Ibrahim Anli
to a sizable extent, to a great extent, this is already happening. This is impossible not to happen. Thinking of the the cycles of immigration and, and,
00:53:16:21 - 00:53:18:17
Ibrahim Anli
how communities,
00:53:18:17 - 00:53:21:08
Ibrahim Anli
take shape and,
00:53:21:08 - 00:53:25:13
Ibrahim Anli
feel more grounded in their American identity. That's how this,
00:53:25:13 - 00:53:26:09
Ibrahim Anli
has happened.
00:53:26:11 - 00:53:29:10
Ibrahim Anli
So this is all already happening,
00:53:29:10 - 00:53:29:20
Ibrahim Anli
and,
00:53:29:20 - 00:53:31:03
Ibrahim Anli
maybe needs more,
00:53:31:03 - 00:53:32:17
Ibrahim Anli
visibility and,
00:53:32:17 - 00:53:35:22
Ibrahim Anli
and on the other hand, there is also this,
00:53:35:22 - 00:53:36:14
Ibrahim Anli
maybe,
00:53:36:14 - 00:53:37:06
Ibrahim Anli
not,
00:53:37:06 - 00:53:44:02
Ibrahim Anli
the way we want to be, but that element that pertains to our human nature,
00:53:44:02 - 00:53:47:12
Ibrahim Anli
that everything new, every new comer, every,
00:53:47:12 - 00:53:54:13
Ibrahim Anli
unknown is at least for the first encounter, is gives you a sense of,
00:53:54:13 - 00:54:01:08
Ibrahim Anli
uncertainty and fear and maybe even sometimes to some, a sense of dislike.
00:54:01:10 - 00:54:03:13
Ibrahim Anli
So there is this really,
00:54:03:13 - 00:54:04:16
Ibrahim Anli
very,
00:54:04:16 - 00:54:09:08
Ibrahim Anli
primordial human element that's not easy to eliminate.
00:54:09:08 - 00:54:18:21
Ibrahim Anli
And nearly every community, as Will was sharing his family story, went through this in some form. But speaking of the,
00:54:18:21 - 00:54:22:03
Ibrahim Anli
of the Muslim American experience that I,
00:54:22:03 - 00:54:24:01
Ibrahim Anli
been trying to observe,
00:54:24:01 - 00:54:25:22
Ibrahim Anli
over the last six years,
00:54:25:22 - 00:54:27:19
Ibrahim Anli
I've been living in the U.S this,
00:54:27:19 - 00:54:28:20
Ibrahim Anli
is,
00:54:28:20 - 00:54:31:02
Ibrahim Anli
already happening and,
00:54:31:02 - 00:54:32:18
Ibrahim Anli
especially with, with,
00:54:32:18 - 00:54:34:17
Ibrahim Anli
one generation,
00:54:34:17 - 00:54:36:03
Ibrahim Anli
to the other.
00:54:36:05 - 00:54:36:18
Ibrahim Anli
But,
00:54:36:18 - 00:54:37:09
Ibrahim Anli
as I
00:54:37:09 - 00:54:39:01
Ibrahim Anli
told you, there are these,
00:54:39:01 - 00:54:40:22
Ibrahim Anli
there are these certain,
00:54:40:22 - 00:54:42:21
Ibrahim Anli
not dominant, but still,
00:54:42:21 - 00:54:44:05
Ibrahim Anli
inherited,
00:54:44:05 - 00:54:46:01
Ibrahim Anli
elements that,
00:54:46:01 - 00:55:05:08
Ibrahim Anli
the, the, the poor institutional structures of home countries, created, not the faith itself. And as people travel, they people with their entire mental, they take it to wherever they go. So this is one,
00:55:05:08 - 00:55:05:20
Ibrahim Anli
reality.
00:55:05:20 - 00:55:09:16
Ibrahim Anli
And as I said, like this whole idea of,
00:55:09:16 - 00:55:12:03
Ibrahim Anli
mosque spaces. Go observe them.
00:55:12:03 - 00:55:15:04
Ibrahim Anli
They they don't look the way they used. They used to look,
00:55:15:04 - 00:55:17:07
Ibrahim Anli
a decade or 2 ago,
00:55:17:07 - 00:55:29:05
Ibrahim Anli
when when you look at the women's role, for example, and this is happening in this country, and the credit part of the credit at least goes to,
00:55:29:05 - 00:55:33:00
Ibrahim Anli
goes to the United States because it's enabling that,
00:55:33:00 - 00:55:35:09
Ibrahim Anli
egalitarian structure.
00:55:35:11 - 00:55:38:05
Wilk Wilkinson
Very good, very good. And, Will,
00:55:38:05 - 00:55:39:02
Wilk Wilkinson
the same question
00:55:39:02 - 00:55:43:09
Wilk Wilkinson
do you think that there is a, a way to,
00:55:43:09 - 00:55:49:20
Wilk Wilkinson
to do this and build out upon the the confidence, decrease that skepticism?
00:55:49:20 - 00:55:53:03
Wilk Wilkinson
maintain a certain amount of, of, of cultural,
00:55:53:03 - 00:55:58:04
Wilk Wilkinson
pluralism. Well, while also promoting some, some assimilation.
00:55:58:04 - 00:55:59:00
Wilk Wilkinson
What, what do
00:55:59:00 - 00:56:01:01
Wilk Wilkinson
What are you seeing? What are you thinking right now?
00:56:01:04 - 00:56:02:18
Will Harwood
I think that the
00:56:02:18 - 00:56:15:20
Will Harwood
when I think we have a lack of confidence right now, I think that that pressure that my family experienced in Ohio to assimilate, I think that that comes from, that is in some ways, even though,
00:56:15:20 - 00:56:26:12
Will Harwood
that's something that was negative toward my family in some way, that pressure might have been necessary to help my family assimilate and come in to become what we are today, which is,
00:56:26:12 - 00:56:27:23
Will Harwood
proud Americans across the board.
00:56:27:23 - 00:56:29:17
Will Harwood
So I think that,
00:56:29:17 - 00:56:42:01
Will Harwood
we need to find a way to be confident in what we are and being able to identify that these are the foundational pieces and doing things exactly like we're doing right now, talking about them. What are the values that are remarkable?
00:56:42:01 - 00:56:42:20
Will Harwood
there's a line in,
00:56:42:20 - 00:56:44:16
Will Harwood
Ecclesiastes that's very famous,
00:56:44:16 - 00:56:48:06
Will Harwood
that there's a time for everything, a season for for everything.
00:56:48:08 - 00:57:01:01
Will Harwood
A time to plant, a time to uproot, a time to tear down, a time to build, a time to love, a time to hate, a time for war. And a time for peace. And I think that this is a time to build, to rebuild, to remember. And,
00:57:01:01 - 00:57:05:11
Will Harwood
one of the things that's in my mind is that when you think about Western civilization, it died,
00:57:05:11 - 00:57:06:17
Will Harwood
it was forgotten.
00:57:06:19 - 00:57:07:16
Will Harwood
So you had the,
00:57:07:16 - 00:57:18:11
Will Harwood
the whole idea of the Renaissance in the 1400s or 14th century in Florence, that was that was a reimagination of these concepts that had been carried for,
00:57:18:11 - 00:57:23:04
Will Harwood
long time before with the Romans and the Greeks. They were rediscovered.
00:57:23:04 - 00:57:36:08
Will Harwood
And what's remarkable, and maybe Ibrahim, this goes back to your point about early Islam, is that a big reason that we were able to have this rediscovery of these Western ideas that had died or had been forgotten,
00:57:36:08 - 00:57:37:22
Will Harwood
were the great libraries.
00:57:37:22 - 00:57:38:18
Will Harwood
So,
00:57:38:18 - 00:57:47:14
Will Harwood
Catholic monks, a few Catholic monks maintained great libraries that preserved information. And then also in the Islamic world, in Baghdad,
00:57:47:14 - 00:57:48:20
Will Harwood
in Toledo,
00:57:48:20 - 00:58:02:04
Will Harwood
all of the ancient Roman and Greek texts had been translated into Arabic and those became foundational for resurrecting that. And that line went directly into the enlightenment. And the enlightenment was what birthed the United States.
00:58:02:06 - 00:58:02:22
Will Harwood
So,
00:58:02:22 - 00:58:24:00
Will Harwood
we have this incredible treasure. As Abraham said, we need to remember it. We need to ground ourselves in it. And I think that if we can do that, we have a more hopeful shot of continuing to do what we've always done, which is to take the challenges that have have, been too difficult for others and make them American and overcome them.
00:58:24:02 - 00:58:26:20
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah, yeah. No, it's wonderful.
00:58:26:20 - 00:58:36:05
Wilk Wilkinson
So as we wrap up our time here, I, I, I mean, I, I think we covered a lot of ground and in a fairly short amount of time, but and I know I've, I've,
00:58:36:05 - 00:58:41:06
Wilk Wilkinson
taken a lot away from this conversation. Why don't you each give me a minute of of parting words.
00:58:41:06 - 00:58:41:21
Wilk Wilkinson
We'll,
00:58:41:21 - 00:58:42:20
Wilk Wilkinson
we'll start with,
00:58:42:20 - 00:58:48:18
Wilk Wilkinson
with you, will. And and take a minute, to talk about what you've taken away from this conversation and,
00:58:48:18 - 00:58:49:13
Wilk Wilkinson
and, and then,
00:58:49:13 - 00:58:51:02
Wilk Wilkinson
Abraham will give you the,
00:58:51:02 - 00:58:52:22
Wilk Wilkinson
final word on, on that and then,
00:58:52:22 - 00:58:55:22
Wilk Wilkinson
and then we'll we'll wrap this one up.
00:58:56:00 - 00:58:59:20
Will Harwood
Well, thank you, Wilk, and thank you, Ibrahim. This has been a great conversation.
00:58:59:20 - 00:59:01:18
Will Harwood
And I'm so glad we were able to do it.
00:59:01:18 - 00:59:12:02
Will Harwood
I think the first thing and only thing that I want to just say is to thank thank you to Braver angels, because Braver Angels has created a space where Ibrahim and I can come together and share ideas.
00:59:12:02 - 00:59:13:02
Will Harwood
And I think that that's,
00:59:13:02 - 00:59:30:20
Will Harwood
something very special and unique that Braver Angels does is it creates that civic forum where people can come together and and meet each other as, as people, as Americans, and be able to have and facilitate these types of exchanges, which, which blossomed here into a podcast. So I'm very grateful for both of you and,
00:59:30:20 - 00:59:34:02
Will Harwood
for Braver Angels, which is sort of the initiating drive of,
00:59:34:02 - 00:59:37:12
Will Harwood
of of all of it.
00:59:37:14 - 00:59:47:11
Ibrahim Anli
Likewise, I really appreciate the opportunity Wilk for for hosting us. And at this conversation, I'm so delighted to be part of it. We,
00:59:47:11 - 00:59:49:04
Ibrahim Anli
this this is a very,
00:59:49:04 - 00:59:52:08
Ibrahim Anli
special time. I, I don't think we've had,
00:59:52:08 - 00:59:54:07
Ibrahim Anli
shortage of special moments,
00:59:54:07 - 00:59:59:08
Ibrahim Anli
in looking at the history, but this is a very important time. And these platforms are,
00:59:59:08 - 00:59:59:21
Ibrahim Anli
fulfilling.
00:59:59:21 - 01:00:00:09
Ibrahim Anli
Really,
01:00:00:09 - 01:00:12:05
Ibrahim Anli
profoundly important role. And since my first encounter with, with braver angels and meeting wonderful friends and colleagues like the two of you over there, it's it's been,
01:00:12:05 - 01:00:19:09
Ibrahim Anli
part of my part of and an integral part of the personal story I shared earlier. And,
01:00:19:09 - 01:00:26:17
Ibrahim Anli
I look forward to being part of that, endeavor and, and truly appreciate its value.
01:00:26:19 - 01:00:30:15
Wilk Wilkinson
This is this has been absolutely wonderful, guys. Thank you so very much. And,
01:00:30:15 - 01:00:33:03
Wilk Wilkinson
Braver Angels is such an important thing. And
01:00:33:03 - 01:00:33:16
Wilk Wilkinson
as we,
01:00:33:16 - 01:00:36:16
Wilk Wilkinson
near that 250 year mark in this country,
01:00:36:16 - 01:00:41:12
Wilk Wilkinson
religious pluralism, cultural pluralism, how, how we can all,
01:00:41:12 - 01:00:42:08
Wilk Wilkinson
do better.
01:00:42:09 - 01:00:44:04
Wilk Wilkinson
in this thing,
01:00:44:04 - 01:00:51:13
Wilk Wilkinson
this uniquely American thing that we have, I think it's hugely important that we continue to have conversations like this,
01:00:51:13 - 01:00:58:23
Wilk Wilkinson
because the worst thing that we can do is, is just leave things unsaid. Leave things unknown. Allow our
01:00:58:23 - 01:01:03:17
Wilk Wilkinson
Ignorance, on on topics to become fear of,
01:01:03:17 - 01:01:05:13
Wilk Wilkinson
those other people.
01:01:05:15 - 01:01:07:08
Wilk Wilkinson
And when we do that,
01:01:07:08 - 01:01:08:05
Wilk Wilkinson
that fear,
01:01:08:05 - 01:01:21:02
Wilk Wilkinson
that that fear then turns into to to anger and then hate and then that's how we get to the violence. So the real, the real solution here is to have these conversations, obviously,
01:01:21:02 - 01:01:27:02
Wilk Wilkinson
we we all love the organization Braver Angels. That is where we can make these great things happen.
01:01:27:04 - 01:01:34:14
Wilk Wilkinson
It's it's given us a platform and given us an avenue to, to meet, meet each other. And,
01:01:34:14 - 01:01:37:06
Wilk Wilkinson
I just encourage everybody to,
01:01:37:06 - 01:01:50:10
Wilk Wilkinson
check that out. Share. Braver angels.org. Find out how you can become part of the solution. Have conversations like this. It's been wonderful guys. Ibrahim Anli, Will Harwood, thank you so much for joining me on the Derate the Hate podcast.
01:01:50:12 - 01:01:53:11
Wilk Wilkinson
I do appreciate you greatly. Thank you very much.
01:01:53:13 - 01:01:54:11
Will Harwood
Thanks for.
01:01:54:13 - 01:01:58:14
Ibrahim Anli
Thank you.
01:01:58:14 - 01:02:28:10
Wilk Wilkinson
Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate The Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together, so please take a moment to visit Braver angels.org and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divides.
01:02:28:12 - 01:02:51:18
Wilk Wilkinson
This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friends, I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
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