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Courageous Connections: Embracing Pluralism Amidst American Populism
In this Derate The Hate bonus episode, host Wilk Wilkinson sits down with fellow Braver Angels Ibrahim Anli and Will Harwood for a powerful discussion on cultural and religious pluralism in the face of American populism.
They explore what it means to be American in today’s polarized climate and the importance of courageous connections in embracing diversity. Ibrahim, an immigrant to the U.S., and Will, a native-born American, share their personal insights on how America’s evolving identity can remain rooted in foundational civic values while allowing room for pluralism.
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Listen Now to hear a thought-provoking conversation on how we can embrace diversity, overcome polarization, and strengthen the fabric of American society in the face of modern challenges.
The world is a better place if we are better people. That begins with each of us as individuals. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for all you’ve got. Make every day the day that you want it to be!
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Transcript is AI generated and may contain errors
[00:00:00:00] Wilk Wilkinson: Do you ever feel uneasy about the changes happening in our society today? Are you concerned or maybe even fearful about how immigration, cultural pluralism and religious diversity are reshaping the very fabric of our national identity? Americanization means the process of becoming an American. It means civic incorporation, becoming a part of the polity, becoming one of us. But that does not mean conformity. We are more than a melting pot. We are a kaleidoscope. This is a quote from Barbara Jordan, civil rights icon and constitutional scholar, and it reminds us that being an American isn't about sameness. It's about shared purpose. It's about civic belonging. And it's about embracing the vibrant, refracted diversity that makes this country not just a place, but a promise. In today's episode, I am joined by two fellow braver angels. Will Harwood and Ibrahim Anli for a powerful conversation about civic culture, national identity and what it means to choose America not just as a home, but as a story we live into together.
[00:01:20:04] Ibrahim Anli: it was this living contract. And I'll quote, Alexis de Tocqueville, maybe not in an exact word form, but he says the the greatest strength of Americans is their ability and willingness to to face their shortcomings, to encounter their shortcomings. That is being just, such, a profound part of this
[00:01:47:00] Will Harwood: I think that there's a fundamental, optimism and sense of we rise to our challenges, whatever those are, as a country, and we find our way through. And, to me, that is a that's a fundamental American spirit, right? Like we're going to be able to get through whatever the challenges are. Now, today with polarization, I always say, we don't we don't choose. No American generation has ever sat down and chosen the challenges that it's confronting. But always we've risen to them.
[00:02:14:00] Ibrahim Anli: it's it's just the story of, another individual who, as you said, chooses this country to as as his home and to a very large number of countries in the world. This whole idea of, adopting that country as your home is a lot of technicalities. It's a matter of technicalities. It's not a matter of story or identity. Even if that happens, that that happens in, multiple generations. Not in the case of the United States. It is this living contract, way beyond technicalities,
[00:02:57:18] Will Harwood: I think part of the challenge that we have to do today is also ground ourselves so that we have that shared understanding of what the civic culture needs to be, and how we can set that forward.
[00:03:07:13] Wilk Wilkinson: Two Americans, one natural born, one by choice. Different backgrounds and beliefs. Coming together for a conversation about optimism, realism and the living contract we all share as citizens. It's about grounding ourselves in civic culture, not as nostalgia, but as a forward looking foundation. So whether you're feeling hopeful or uncertain, this discussion is for you. Let's roll that intro and get into this bonus episode. Welcome back, my friends, for the Derate The Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog. And those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross Partizan organization working towards civic renewal. This podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ. Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate The Hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Share it with a friend and visit Braver angels.org to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partizan divide. Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate The Hate episode. So let's get to it. In today's conversation. Ibrahim Anli and Will Harwood discuss the complex balance between religious and cultural pluralism and American identity, particularly in this populist era. Ibrahim, as an immigrant, reflects on the concept of a living contract, an evolving civic creed that transcends legalities, reminding us that America's strength lies in its ability to self-correct and adapt. He emphasizes that America's unique power lies in its openness to newcomers, allowing for personal and religious freedom, a space where immigrants like him can find both refuge and opportunity. Will builds on this by underscoring the importance of grounding ourselves in the nation's founding principles, especially the Constitution. He points to the ongoing challenges of polarization and skepticism, but encourages an optimistic outlook rooted in historic resilience, reminding us that America's greatness is defined by its ability to confront adversity through open conversation. Together, Ibrahim and will highlight that embracing both cultural pluralism and a shared commitment to foundational values is The key to overcoming division and ensuring the American experiment continues to thrive. Let's get into it with my friends, Will and Ibrahim! Here we go. Ibrahim, Anli and, Will Harwood, thank you so much for joining me for this special episode of the Derate The Hate podcast. I appreciate you guys being here today.
[00:07:10:01] Ibrahim Anli: Thank you. Happy to be here.
[00:07:11:14] Will Harwood: Great to be with you guys.
[00:07:13:23] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. So so excited for this conversation. you guys have both been part of Braver Angels for for a while now, and know how important it is to have these, these wonderful conversations freely, fully without fear and and. Will, when you came to me with the idea that that, that there was a relationship that you had been building with Ibrahim and, and on and then this topic of, religious pluralism and, and how that worked with, American identity and in this, this kind of populist era. It just it was such an interesting idea, and I thought it was such an important concept that we should bring this, this conversation. Between the two of you, to the listeners, because because this is one of those conversations and one of those things that I think is on a lot of people's minds, especially today in this, in this era that we're in. And, for the two of you to step up and be willing to, to have that that conversation, right now is, is is incredible. So thank you both very much for, for being here today.
[00:08:32:09] Will Harwood: Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you, Wilk, for having us. It's really I'm excited for the conversation. That we can jump into. And I'll just say, when I, Ibrahim and I were talking about this originally, one of the things that I love so much about Braver Angels is that it brings you together with really great Americans, people that are looking to build, and to, take on the challenge of polarization to restart the conversations, to engage, to get together. And, Ibrahim, from the first moment that I met him, has always struck me in, the meetings where I walk away and I leave with thoughts, that are provoking and, things that stick with me, so I can go back all the way through, probably to the first time, Ibrahim, that you and I met. And I can recount the, pieces of of insight that you've shared. So rich and, obviously we come. We're all coming together as Americans first and foremost. And but we all come with our own unique backgrounds and stories. But this, this topic of American identity, to me, is sort of the fundamental question today, of what it is that defines us. And if you just look at the, the past couple of weeks, the vice president, J.D. Vance, I don't know if you saw his speech at the Claremont Institute, recently, but it was really centered on these exact topics. I was just looking at that up, in preparation for this, this call. But he was putting forward a lot of the same kind of core, concepts of how do we deal with, cultural diversity and also, religious diversity, cultural diversity, but also having that shared sense of what it means to be American and making sure that our identity can be, above that, at the higher level in a, in a respect. So I'm really thrilled to to join you guys for this conversation.
[00:10:20:21] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. Me too. So, so, Ibrahim, let let me let me ask you then, then right off the bat because, I know, both Will and I were born, born here, native to the United States. But you are, you you are somebody who immigrated to the United States. So when when people talk about the American identity and and what the American identity is and and, what does that mean to you as somebody who, who, who chose to come here and chose to make that, part of a part of your life because, I think there's obviously a, a, a paradox there, that, that a lot of people don't quite understand. Yes, we are all Americans. Well, and I by birth, you by choice. So talk to me about, about the American identity and what that means to you and why that is so important to you.
[00:11:22:00] Ibrahim Anli: Yeah. Thank you. And, just a note of of gratitude and acknowledgment of two braver angels, which has truly been this welcoming, not only welcoming, but really well functioning home at that, at this moment of intense effort to to retell the story of this country and who we are and what as a country, as a society, we have stood for and we should be standing for moving forward, what we want to leave to our children and and more particularly into my story. Yes, I was born and raised overseas and spent my formative years, away from the US. Though I was always very closely exposed because I was fortunate to have a large cohort of American teachers at my school. And as a teenager and, and after those years, basically, I don't think I had any, any week without something connected to or from or related to, United States in my professional role as, as in nonprofit work and frequently, visiting the US and also, studying here in the past, as an international student. But, this story is, unique. So it's like fingers. They're all fingers, but they have all their unique fingerprints. I think my story is one. So it's it's just the story of, another individual who, as you said, chooses this country to as as his home and to a very large number of countries in the world. This whole idea of, adopting that country as your home is a lot of technicalities. It's a matter of technicalities. It's not a matter of story or identity. Even if that happens, that that happens in, multiple generations. Not in the case of the United States. It is this living contract, way beyond technicalities, and, that you choose to be part of, to uphold and to, to, to and you believe it. So, and as a, as a reference to our larger conversations nowadays, that's one reason that, immigration is, is, part of the strength, the drive, the, the, the wonderful story of this country. And it's because of its such unique role. It has been part of the challenge. So that's again, quite specific to very few countries. And to me, it means being part of this, wider contract. Some part of it is, is codified, such as the Constitution and some other parts of it is, is a is a civic creed. That's how I would put it. And Braver Angels, for example, has been very successful because it is helping people. During this time of maybe soul searching, reconnect with that whole idea of civic creed, of who we are.
[00:14:52:21] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. so talk to me then a little bit more, about and then I'll, and then I'll get your input on this Will, but talk to me a little bit about, you said a couple of things like civic creed and living contract that that really, I, I would just love to know, when you talk about things like that, what what does that mean? And, and how, what is, what is our responsibility as native born Americans in that? And then what is your responsibility as somebody who's, who's come to this country, to to be part of that?
[00:15:27:14] Ibrahim Anli: Yeah, this, this idea of living contract. Of course, we can have multiple versions of wording it and approaching it, but, the, the Founding Fathers, in my understanding, highlighted a vision that in practice was, trusted to people to be, traveled towards constantly. That's why it's a living contract. It's been reinterpreted and retold almost by every generation. And, like speaking of Americans religious history, I remember hearing a comment what? It was primarily Protestants who started the country and then those who came and protested them, and those who came afterwards protested them. But, speaking of the larger public sphere, it was this living contract. And I'll quote, Alexis de Tocqueville, maybe not in an exact word form, but he says the the greatest strength of Americans is their ability and willingness to to face their shortcomings, to encounter their shortcomings. That is being just, such, a profound part of this story. So, and and that should also mean if we are talking about a living contract, a sense of continuity together with a sense of connection. So our our search, in my opinion, should not mean, just adventurous, disconnection with, with with the story. This is our story. With ups and downs, with moments that we can be proud of and with other moments that we cannot but, that's how, I think it's, it has evolved and it it should be evolving. Just, we should be traveling with this sense of incompleteness. And which I believe again, has been this, productive cycle since the time of the Founding Fathers and, and with, with the living Creed I'm referring to maybe more or less contractual, but more relational parts of it, that the sense of people who that's beyond mechanics and it, it did exist. The, this country wouldn't have been around if, hadn't if that didn't exist.
[00:18:03:18] Wilk Wilkinson: Right. Right now and will so so when we think about that, that living contract that, that that America is, is, is a constantly evolving thing. And, we are constantly working through, new challenges or, being willing to, to step up and accept our, our problems and work through those together. And so talk, talk to me a little bit about how you see that in terms of, the civic creed and what we are trying to do here that is, is fairly uniquely American.
[00:18:40:12] Will Harwood: Yeah. I mean, I think just going back to actually something that Ibrahim said, just as we were kind of talking through the idea of this, is that, we have to make this work and we do make this work. So I think that there's a fundamental, optimism and sense of we rise to our challenges, whatever those are, as a country, and we find our way through. And, to me, that is a that's a fundamental American spirit, right? Like we're going to be able to get through whatever the challenges are. Now, today with polarization, I always say, we don't we don't choose. No American generation has ever sat down and chosen the challenges that it's confronting. But always we've risen to them. And that goes back to beating the biggest empire in the world for our founders or for at our founding. The revolution to the Civil War, and to the, the defining wars of the 20th century and every other social movement that's come through. We find our way through, and I think that that is a kind of an attitude that we have that we have to maintain and, and, and making sure that we can find the productive ways to do that. The way we have to do that is to talk to each other and to be able to have these direct conversations about important topics that we're able to chart the right course. But, when I think about, well, the, this question of, of American civics and, the civic contract that we have and then also the founding ideals of the country with the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence. Those are ones where to me, when I when we talk about our challenges, I think that one of our greatest challenges is that we're not as grounded in those as we need to be. We don't have as much of a sense of, that that grounding, civic education, if you will. That allows us to be confident in what we are and when you when you lack of confidence from that knowledge, I think it can be things can go off the rails. So I think part of the challenge that we have to do today is also ground ourselves so that we have that shared understanding of what the civic culture needs to be, and how we can set that forward. And to me that, that's part of this conversation here is that we all need to reassert and engage as much as we can, to help us unpack that so we can come to that shared understanding of what what American civic obligations are that we have and so forth.
[00:21:01:03] Wilk Wilkinson: So so I have a question for both of you then. So, when we think about those, those obligations and what we as, as Americans, which I think we all agree this, this thing that we have in America is, is pretty unique to the United States of America. so when we think about those things, what are our obligations then? And I'll start with you, Will, when we, we see that a lot of times today, especially in, in the more populist era and the things where, where our politics seem to go by the whims of whoever seems to be in office at the time, what are our obligations as a citizen when it comes to the civic creed, the civic contract? Just we'll talk about that real quick for me. And then I want to turn that question over to Ibrahim.
[00:21:58:09] Will Harwood: So I think that we need to keep a focus on we all have our own personal stories and our personal identities, which are unique to us like nobody else. Just as Ibrahim said, it's a fingerprint. We're each our own fingerprint. And that goes back to our stories, our families, our histories. How we got to where we are and we, take pride in those. That's that's integral to our identity. And we each have those and that individualism, I think is, is fundamental to this country. We're free to choose what we want to do, and how we want to live, and how we want to pursue our happiness. I think also we need to keep in mind that that's the personal level, but we also have to have the higher level, which is the thing that the glue that binds us. And, and I think that that's formed, to go back to your concept of subsidiarity, that's formed at the basic level in the family, where we have a shared expectations in any family that you live in and then up to the community and then up to the nation, and then perhaps even at some level. And it and then and there's a level above that which is a little bit more nebulous, which is a civilizational level. And, so we need to kind of be aware of what are those things that ground us and hold us together. And, and for me, the founding documents, the Constitution, these principles that we live by. Those are, our gifts to us. And those are things that hold us all together. We have to learn to love them and learn to know them. And, to me, that's the thing that will bind us all together, which is the, the the, the really formal contract that we have together to understand that so it can live through us.
[00:23:44:13] Wilk Wilkinson: Sure. And, Ibrahim, what would you well, what would you say? That that our obligations as individuals are, within that civic contract and, and how that works for you?
[00:23:57:14] Ibrahim Anli: I'll, I'll quote Benjamin Franklin this time. So after the, continental, after the continental, committee was that was that the committee that young man.
[00:24:08:10] Wilk Wilkinson: Okay.
[00:24:08:19] Ibrahim Anli: And he was asked. So, so what what happened? So did you, start a, what did you achieve? What did you come out with? He said, a republic, if you can keep it. So, so this we spoke about this country's ability to to look at the mirror, courageously. This is of course, we are not discount the government is not a church. But it bought this, strength borrows a lot this concept of from this concept of repentance. And it's, it's it's this concept applied in to public sphere, in a very productive form. And seeing your shortcomings and struggling to address them. And, for this particular question, there might be multiple answers. It's really a 360 thing, but all I want to talk about this idea of, similar to Wills point, those foundational liberties, particularly the First Amendment. So, again, in a, in a religious with a some religious flavor, we can say that God does not cancel. And we should maintain we should be able to maintain this, maximalist, profound, open, way of understanding what the First Amendment means. This on on the paper, it's it's, of course, a legal, binding, constitutional, statement. But it's repercussions is is way beyond that. If you want to see, Cutting-Edge articles being published and generated, uphold that principle. If you want to see scientific advance, uphold that principle. Maintain. And don't even let a even the smallest dent being opened into First Amendment. If you want to see quality art coming out from our country. And, and if you want to see more symbols on the street, I think, yes, even that, maybe not immediately, visibly, directly, but even that is connected to really very jealously upholding our First Amendment.
[00:26:29:10] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. I think that's, that's incredibly important. So, so with that then Ibrahim, because I know, in your past from, speaking with you before, you've lived in places you've come from, a background of living in places where, where there was persecution and, whether it be religious persecution or being persecuted for what you've said or, cultural differences and, and things like that. So, so let's take our conversation then into, how that, I guess, how that worked for you, how those things were a part of your past and how they became the catalyst for you ultimately moving your family here and establishing a life here. So so there really is a huge importance to the concept of, religious pluralism, cultural pluralism. And, and this was the place you chose to, find that and, expand upon that for your family. So, so let's, let's kind of transition our conversation there and then, and then I'd welcome Will's feedback on on how that works. And, and how he sees, sees that. So, so talk to us a little bit about that, Ibrahim. Religious pluralism. Cultural pluralism and and and what what about America made made those things? have you for you.
[00:28:00:04] Ibrahim Anli: I was blessed to be involved in I was born and raised in Turkey, grew up in Istanbul, and I was blessed to be, involved with, with as, as full time staff and in several roles, at the, at the journalists and writers Foundation, which was Turkey's modern Turkey's first, publicly visible, registered interfaith platform, that emerged in the mid 90s. And I joined, of course, maybe a decade later. And up until that moment, this notion and understanding towards non-Muslim minorities had really a huge baggage of, medieval and early modern political struggles and the times of colonization and imperial, imperial competitions and rivalry. So, the those minorities, predominantly Christian and Jewish minorities, were looked through those multiple lenses of, of historical baggage which created a climate of, suspicion and, and denial and, and, skepticism towards those people. So it was, really a very securitized way of looking at religious, diversity. And then the foundation emerged and took very courageous steps to bringing together those people around the iftar table to celebrate Ramadan. So it really shifted the weight of people's looking at it. And many people started saying that, well, these these are just as we are, are inherently, belonging people of the same country. And in fact, many of them were here before we were even here. So it really started shifting these terms and then, became nearly a mainstream, way of thinking for quite a long time. But, that maybe wasn't, maintained ideally. And then there was a change of political climate and, and this time there were, there were political ambitions to, to bring a religious flavor, into the country's identity and, and kind of, sort of what, people in the Western Academy especially have called kind of a political Islam, Islam as a political doctrine rather than as a matter of, choice and faith. And, I was among, a cohort of people who opposed this idea, and that's why we ended up being, persecuted and eventually displaced. But, this, this is my immediate personal example. And I'll give you a larger observation. So as I was, growing up in, in, in Turkey in, in, 90s, that was a time of aggressive secularism. And when Turkish students were coming to the United States to study, they were amazed with the religious, freedom they were given to, to perform their, religious, obligations for the girls to be able to cover their head. And this not being even an issue during the same decades when students from Iran were coming to the United States, they were amazed with the freedom to uncover their hats. So two neighboring countries, Muslim majority countries, one was applying an aggressive form of secularism in total disrespect of personal liberty. The other one was executing an aggressive form of theocracy, again with total disregard of individual with. And these people were coming to the same country and one was celebrating the ability to observe freedom, and the other one was celebrating the ability to not to be imposed with religious practices. So and that that's the United States. This whole idea of, separation, very carefully crafted and, of course, no human machine is perfect, but in maintained in an exemplary form that can still inspire many corners of the world.
[00:32:45:22] Wilk Wilkinson: So we'll as you're listening to, to this and, and there's, I hear this story and, and, and and it definitely it as an American, somebody who's born, who was born here, who has not experienced those types of things. I also know that I've, I've seen a lot of people within our country, that, that are skeptical when when we start talking about, terms like, religious pluralism, cultural pluralism, bringing in, migrants from from regions that were, experiencing, theocratic dictatorships and things like that. Talk to me about, your reaction to, to to the persecution, that that Ibrahim and his family have experienced. And then what you see going on in America today in terms of that and and what the I guess what the. What that skepticism, is rooted in or what you believe that skepticism might be rooted in.
[00:33:54:18] Will Harwood: Sure. So my going back to I, I spent a lot of time in Wisconsin growing up, for, Thanksgiving. That was we always did our Thanksgiving at my grandma's house, and my grandma, always had this expression. She had she had a lot of expressions, but she had this one expression that was, that house guests are like fish. They start to smell after three days. And, you could look at that. That was a house guest. Every year at Thanksgiving. It's like, do you mean me? But it was, I got to get out of here. But, I think that there's there's some there's some wisdom into that. when you think about the word to host, and I know that this is something just from the bit that I've studied of, of Islam, for example, hosting is a very it's almost a sacred concept in terms of how you treat your guests and so forth. There's a lot of honor in it. But if you just look at the etymology, the history of that word to host, it, it has the same root, as hostile and the same root as hostage. And there's an element to, what is it that makes that your guests start to smell after three days? And I think that ultimately comes back to people are different. So when you're running a household, again, the norms of behavior, the expectations that you have, those are set in the household. Everyone adheres to that. As soon as you open that up, even within your own community, and you start to bring people into it, all of a sudden you're confronting people that are going to be functioning differently. And those differences create friction. And so if you take, your concept of subsidiarity and you extrapolate that up, up to the community level, up to the national level, I think that the cohesion that people experience are when there's a shared sense of behavioral norms, institutions and so forth. And when those are there's too much friction there. It creates that, that, that tension. So on the other side of my family, they came to Ohio from southern Italy, and that would be a southern Italy is a little bit different from northern Italy. Southern Italy has got a lot of corruption. It's a very different culture. Warm. I get a lot of my sort of religious Catholic influence from the southern Italian of my side, but, but it's very different, and it has elements to it that are going to be more, clannish and, and certainly with, with mafia and organized crime and so forth. And I can tell you that when, when the Italian southern Italians came in, that's mostly where the Italian immigrants came from. It came for opportunity. And when they came to Ohio, my family almost every week in the town that my great grandfather settled in, there were KKK rallies, on the main street. And they weren't protesting black Americans. They were protesting Italian Americans coming in. And, the the for my family, the rule was we want to become maricon maricon American. That's what they said. We want to become American. So for us, we went through a process where we, assimilation process. We left language behind. We worked as hard as we could. And and I'm very grateful for that because, I'm a continuation of that legacy of of assimilating. And for me, it's to ground myself and what these values are. But when I hear, Ibrahim speaking about his experience in Turkey and I think about sort of the tension that we're seeing right now, not just in the United States, I think we've done a relatively a better job being able to bring people in and incorporate people and making people feel from all over the world. Part of this, this, project, the American project, it's amazing. I'm proud of it. But if you look across the West and I would consider America to be founded on those enlightenment Western principles, there is a lot of tension between, Western societies and, and immigrants that are coming in from the Islamic world. And if I look across the whole of Islamic world, there's 40, 40 countries that are Muslim majority. And of those 40 countries, I think 3 or 4 are we would consider to be democracies. Turkey is one of them. And obviously by Ibrahim's example of being having to flee for persecution, the ones that are there, Indonesia, Morocco, Turkey, perhaps Malaysia. They're not exactly the model Western democracies either. So I think that, there's a there's a this is a question of why is it that we're seeing those that trend where there's a, across the, Islamic world, there's a, a lockdown, a move toward political Islam, which then ends up stifling out, the pluralism that we're describing. And how do we make sure that, when we're doing an integration? And this is certainly true of the United States, but it's true everywhere. How can we ensure that we're as we're as we're doing this, we make sure we make sure that that doesn't happen. Because if I look in Europe at some of the stuff that's happening in Europe, I don't necessarily see a lot of success there. And, and it's something that we need to contend with and think about.
[00:39:05:17] Wilk Wilkinson: Oh for sure. So, so, Ibrahim, I, I just pose I mean, that the question, can be best answered by you is, is so when we start to thinking about are we we start thinking about the, the skeptical skepticism that people have and that friction that's caused by, the cultural pluralism or, or the assimilation or things or to, to, to to Will's point when we start to think about, some of the countries that have had issues, where things have not blended as well as, people would have hoped or what what do you suggest or what what I guess what's your reaction to that? And, and and what do you think? the solution is or some solutions are to that particular problem. And how do we quell some of that, that skepticism.
[00:39:58:08] Ibrahim Anli: Yeah. This has several layers. One that pertains to overseas of those, home countries, if you will. And then it's, it's what, what it means in, in, in the US context. But in a, in a, in a larger, sense, there are those, structural issues that, Muslim majority countries have been, struggling with. And, one of them, among several key issues is what some, have called have, identified as, theological depravation. So, there are, there are mechanisms and methodologies and, and and, ways of reasoning, in, in mainline Muslim scholarship that can enable you to address contemporary issues. And as the times change, you can reemploy those mechanisms and methodologies and come up with totally different, new answers. It's there's this sense of flexibility, but this requires, a public sphere where freedom of expression is guaranteed. And, when you look at the, the first five centuries of Islamic history, it's you'll see that it's characterized by, this sense of freedom of expression because more than 90% of scholars were not on government payroll. So let that sink in. Yeah. And, and there was a very strong sense of, private ownership. It was really, considered almost sacred. And, power was used in a, in a rather horizontal way, rather than an absolute monarch sitting at the top. These three characteristics of, divided power, strong business class and freedom of expression characterize early Islamic centuries, so that even that the person at the very top of the political mechanism is, is not a monarch. You can he's first among equals. He's like a chief clerk, but definitely not, an absolute, authority. So, this when you compare the institutional structures with, with, the, the challenges today, many of those countries have gatekeepers, the institutions, that control the debate. So that creates, this what people call the theological depravation. And if you are not, able to duly respond quickly, respond with satisfying answers and approaches of the times to respond to the zeitgeist, if you will, then people will come up there with their makeshift, responses and explanations, and many of them will be very reductionist, and some of those reductionist will be very exclusivist. And some of those exclusivist ideas will be even while. So, that's one important, challenge in the, in the current status quo that characterizes a large spectrum of, of those countries. And if you compare it, for example, to what we have in the United States, most of the best publications, in my opinion, about Islamic history and contemporary, Muslim affairs, Muslim issues, nearly all of those publications are coming out from Western countries. Because there is no gatekeepers to tell, those to those, Muslim majority authors and scholars to what to talk about or more importantly, what not to talk about. And, if you visit, an American masjid, an American mosque, I find them to be much closer to original Islamic practices, for example, in terms of space allocation, because especially young women who grew up in the United States refused to pray in the basement. They are Americans. So they refused to be have the equal treatment, which is the original Islamic practice. It was the same room, just divided not and, better room for men and and the, the falling apart space for women. But, here in the US, because of this individualism and sense of liberty and personal agency, the Muslim women are more empowered. So as you see, it's more about institutions rather than, identities, those who uphold those well serving institutions. Who are successful in setting them and maintaining them, are in a better position. And, this is not to, underestimate the the problems that may arise when people from coming from Muslim majority countries encounter in the West upon their arrival, those, tensions. But because, this this is just one explanation. This this conversation on theological depravation is just one window into a larger discussion.
[00:45:40:12] Will Harwood: Ibrahim, if I could ask you, to me and I think that we're all just based on the conversation, we're all kind of have this alignment of this, we elevate our institutional, liberties that were given through the Constitution, this, freedom of speech. Being able to have these ideas is baked into what we are. I, I think that, we're we're fortunate. I think in the world, in the West, we have that really ingrained into who we are. But what I see is, a lack of confidence in those fundamental principles. This goes back to the civics education piece. to me, those if you remove those building blocks, if you will, that foundation of the country. We don't have the country that, we're dealing with an immigration problem right now where we let 20 million people come in without any vetting and through through the open border. But when you think about it, it's we're a country where 20 million people wanted to come. They traveled across the world to come. The building block of our success, of being able to build what we have, that so many people around the world clamor for, whether it's for liberty and freedom as Ibrahim has or it's for economic opportunity, it comes back to that fundamental institutional, basis. What do you think about our confidence in that? Because I think that we've degraded this, our sense of what needs to be what is sacred and needs to be preserved in order to continue this forward. And we sort of treat everything with cultural relativism. Okay. Well, if it's coming from in a way, it's almost the opposite. It's an inversion. It's to say what's coming from us is bad, and everything else from the world is good. So let's embrace those things. And I think that we need to actually make a distinction to say, actually, what we have here is the best system that's ever been created. It's our engine of, of of what drives us and creates the opportunity if we what's your sense of our confidence level in that and the importance of that to help us move forward and, and in the right way?
[00:47:49:05] Ibrahim Anli: My short answer is yes. We should be more confident in in those foundations. And back to my earlier point of, embracing tradition in a, in a form of with, with with also an equal level of ambition for, for renewal. Should, should be this, productive cycle that we are we are engaged in, this idea of continuity, rootedness. But still yet, openness. So, that's that will maintain this sense of peoplehood. That again, goes beyond the legalistic mechanic, elements of what immigration means, what citizenship means of especially for the United States. It's more than those legalistic and mechanic. Elements of the story. It's way more that it's about people so that we can avoid becoming, a confederation of disconnected communities and yes, on modern or postmodern. Yes. Right. So on that front, I, as a as an observant Muslim who chose the United States as his home, who is, here with his family and who is raising a kid with those ideas that, are rooted in this, in the story of this country. And living out more particularities. In the meantime, I, feel uncomfortable with this sort of, is that the the really, is this extreme east of, sense of total departure? And and the sense of total dumping of, of the foundations, foundational elements of, of the story, of this country, this again, I call it a form of, adventurism, but, we need an anchor. Without an anchor. Our the the this profound openness and, welcoming character that is, is testified across the story of the US. Will not be a strength, without an anchor. There should be something, that that binds us around the sense of people hood and, and I think that will not make anyone compromised from feeling who they are. And they're sense of attachment to their roots, their cultures, their faiths. It's not an either or thing, but I, I agree that, we are, we should be more appreciative of the, of the treasure we are sitting on.
[00:50:58:02] Will Harwood: Yes.
[00:50:58:20] Ibrahim Anli: Yeah.
[00:50:59:10] Wilk Wilkinson: So that that actually goes to to a question that I was just thinking about, as you were saying that and, and, and I think you kind of answered it, but I want to dive into that, just a little bit more as, as we get close to the end of our time, guys, the, the idea of is it possible then, Ibrahim, to, you talked about an anchor or getting people to understand what a treasure that we're sitting on. Is it possible? And this is a question that it keeps on coming back to for me. And and I know that I've heard other people say that. Is there a way to, kind of promote, promote that, cultural pluralism, people of the Muslim faith bring to the United States, but also then increase, some of that confidence that Will was talking about decrease that skepticism that people have. I mean, we talk about things that were happening, back in the, the, the early or 1900s, let's say, when, when, there was mass immigration from, from the Irish or the Italians and things like that. And, and how those families really pushed for that assimilation and in future generations and now that that cultural assimilation, while there's, there's still a cultural piece from those, people in the background of those families, they're, they're uniquely American. Now, is there any way, Ibrahim, to to keep that anchor in, the Muslim faith, have that cultural, pluralism, but also have a certain degree of assimilation where, we are we are starting to gather or coming together, in, in mutual appreciation of that treasure. I'll get both your guys's answers on that, and then we'll probably be just about to the end of our time. Man, this is going fast.
[00:52:57:17] Ibrahim Anli: This, to a great extent, it's unfortunately maybe immediately not visible, but to, to a sizable extent, to a great extent, this is already happening. This is impossible not to happen. Thinking of the the cycles of immigration and, and, how communities, take shape and, feel more grounded in their American identity. That's how this, has happened. So this is all already happening, and, maybe needs more, visibility and, and on the other hand, there is also this, maybe, not, the way we want to be, but that element that pertains to our human nature, that everything new, every new comer, every, unknown is at least for the first encounter, is gives you a sense of, uncertainty and fear and maybe even sometimes to some, a sense of dislike. So there is this really, very, primordial human element that's not easy to eliminate. And nearly every community, as Will was sharing his family story, went through this in some form. But speaking of the, of the Muslim American experience that I, been trying to observe, over the last six years, I've been living in the U.S this, is, already happening and, especially with, with, one generation, to the other. But, as I told you, there are these, there are these certain, not dominant, but still, inherited, elements that, the, the, the poor institutional structures of home countries, created, not the faith itself. And as people travel, they people with their entire mental, they take it to wherever they go. So this is one, reality. And as I said, like this whole idea of, mosque spaces. Go observe them. They they don't look the way they used. They used to look, a decade or 2 ago, when when you look at the women's role, for example, and this is happening in this country, and the credit part of the credit at least goes to, goes to the United States because it's enabling that, egalitarian structure.
[00:55:35:11] Wilk Wilkinson: Very good, very good. And, Will, the same question do you think that there is a, a way to, to do this and build out upon the the confidence, decrease that skepticism? maintain a certain amount of, of, of cultural, pluralism. Well, while also promoting some, some assimilation. What, what do What are you seeing? What are you thinking right now?
[00:56:01:04] Will Harwood: I think that the when I think we have a lack of confidence right now, I think that that pressure that my family experienced in Ohio to assimilate, I think that that comes from, that is in some ways, even though, that's something that was negative toward my family in some way, that pressure might have been necessary to help my family assimilate and come in to become what we are today, which is, proud Americans across the board. So I think that, we need to find a way to be confident in what we are and being able to identify that these are the foundational pieces and doing things exactly like we're doing right now, talking about them. What are the values that are remarkable? there's a line in, Ecclesiastes that's very famous, that there's a time for everything, a season for for everything. A time to plant, a time to uproot, a time to tear down, a time to build, a time to love, a time to hate, a time for war. And a time for peace. And I think that this is a time to build, to rebuild, to remember. And, one of the things that's in my mind is that when you think about Western civilization, it died, it was forgotten. So you had the, the whole idea of the Renaissance in the 1400s or 14th century in Florence, that was that was a reimagination of these concepts that had been carried for, long time before with the Romans and the Greeks. They were rediscovered. And what's remarkable, and maybe Ibrahim, this goes back to your point about early Islam, is that a big reason that we were able to have this rediscovery of these Western ideas that had died or had been forgotten, were the great libraries. So, Catholic monks, a few Catholic monks maintained great libraries that preserved information. And then also in the Islamic world, in Baghdad, in Toledo, all of the ancient Roman and Greek texts had been translated into Arabic and those became foundational for resurrecting that. And that line went directly into the enlightenment. And the enlightenment was what birthed the United States. So, we have this incredible treasure. As Abraham said, we need to remember it. We need to ground ourselves in it. And I think that if we can do that, we have a more hopeful shot of continuing to do what we've always done, which is to take the challenges that have have, been too difficult for others and make them American and overcome them.
[00:58:24:02] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, yeah. No, it's wonderful. So as we wrap up our time here, I, I, I mean, I, I think we covered a lot of ground and in a fairly short amount of time, but and I know I've, I've, taken a lot away from this conversation. Why don't you each give me a minute of of parting words. We'll, we'll start with, with you, will. And and take a minute, to talk about what you've taken away from this conversation and, and, and then, Abraham will give you the, final word on, on that and then, and then we'll we'll wrap this one up.
[00:58:56:00] Will Harwood: Well, thank you, Wilk, and thank you, Ibrahim. This has been a great conversation. And I'm so glad we were able to do it. I think the first thing and only thing that I want to just say is to thank thank you to Braver angels, because Braver Angels has created a space where Ibrahim and I can come together and share ideas. And I think that that's, something very special and unique that Braver Angels does is it creates that civic forum where people can come together and and meet each other as, as people, as Americans, and be able to have and facilitate these types of exchanges, which, which blossomed here into a podcast. So I'm very grateful for both of you and, for Braver Angels, which is sort of the initiating drive of, of of all of it.
[00:59:37:14] Ibrahim Anli: Likewise, I really appreciate the opportunity Wilk for for hosting us. And at this conversation, I'm so delighted to be part of it. We, this this is a very, special time. I, I don't think we've had, shortage of special moments, in looking at the history, but this is a very important time. And these platforms are, fulfilling. Really, profoundly important role. And since my first encounter with, with braver angels and meeting wonderful friends and colleagues like the two of you over there, it's it's been, part of my part of and an integral part of the personal story I shared earlier. And, I look forward to being part of that, endeavor and, and truly appreciate its value.
[01:00:26:19] Wilk Wilkinson: This is this has been absolutely wonderful, guys. Thank you so very much. And, Braver Angels is such an important thing. And as we, near that 250 year mark in this country, religious pluralism, cultural pluralism, how, how we can all, do better. in this thing, this uniquely American thing that we have, I think it's hugely important that we continue to have conversations like this, because the worst thing that we can do is, is just leave things unsaid. Leave things unknown. Allow our Ignorance, on on topics to become fear of, those other people. And when we do that, that fear, that that fear then turns into to to anger and then hate and then that's how we get to the violence. So the real, the real solution here is to have these conversations, obviously, we we all love the organization Braver Angels. That is where we can make these great things happen. It's it's given us a platform and given us an avenue to, to meet, meet each other. And, I just encourage everybody to, check that out. Share. Braver angels.org. Find out how you can become part of the solution. Have conversations like this. It's been wonderful guys. Ibrahim Anli, Will Harwood, thank you so much for joining me on the Derate the Hate podcast. I do appreciate you greatly. Thank you very much.
[01:01:53:13] Will Harwood: Thanks for.
[01:01:54:13] Ibrahim Anli: Thank you.
[01:01:58:14] Wilk Wilkinson: Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate The Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together, so please take a moment to visit Braver angels.org and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divides. This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friends, I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
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