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Trime Persinger’s homework assignment was simple: take ten “you” statements and turn them into “I” statements. She couldn’t do the first one. “You make me angry” was the language she grew up with, and she didn’t have another way to say it. Her instructor stayed after class and wrote all ten for her.
That moment set Trime on the path that became courageous communication and her new book, Crossing the Bridge: Heal Your Relationships with Courageous Communication. In this conversation, she and Wilk walk through her four-step model—event, story, feeling, response—and why the story we tell ourselves about what happened usually shapes our reaction more than the event itself. That holds at a card table in a prison day room, and it holds in how we see people on the other side of our politics.
Trime also shares what happened when she brought these skills inside Oregon’s largest prison as a chaplain. The first response was “that won’t work here.” Then the men tried it—with each other, with staff, and with their families—and came back with a different report. Wilk and Trime first met at the Braver Angels National Convention in Philadelphia, and the conversation connects her work to the courageous citizenship focus at Braver Angels, where Wilk serves on staff.
Key Themes
• The story sits between the event and the feeling. Trime’s model starts with something that happens, then the story we tell ourselves about it, then the feeling that story produces, and finally a response. Her example: someone at the table accuses you of cheating. If you believe he’s out to get you, you react one way. If he’s your best friend and just got bad news from home, everything changes. Wilk connects this to Stephen Covey’s well-known story of the father on the train whose kids were running wild—because their mother had just died.
• Your feelings are valid, and they’re nobody’s fault. For Trime, who learned early that her own anger wasn’t acceptable, owning a feeling without blaming anyone for it was a turning point. Wilk shares his own principle—never allow your emotions to dictate your actions—and the two land in the same place from different directions: the feeling is yours, and so is the response.
• Repeating back is the harder kindness. Drawing on her work with Braver Angels, Trime notes that people are comfortable acknowledging where they agree. Acknowledging what someone said that you disagree with is much harder—and that’s where the real kindness is. Listening doesn’t mean you agree. It means you’re willing to cross the bridge into someone else’s world for a minute.
• It only takes one person to change. Trime’s students in prison didn’t wait for anyone else to go first. They tried the skills on their own, and the relationships they were most grateful for were with their families, especially their kids. Her view: we’re wired for connection, and the distance we feel right now isn’t our natural state.
• Behavior almost always makes sense. One of the central ideas in Trime’s work is that people’s behavior is almost never malicious. Our stories about the other side—amplified by social media—tend to assume the worst, and they assume the same about us.
Takeaways
• Before you react, name the story you’re telling yourself. Then ask what else could be true.
• Try “I feel angry” instead of “You make me angry.” It will feel clumsy at first. That’s normal.
• Repeat back what you heard—especially the part you disagree with—before offering your own view.
• In a conflict with someone you care about, try Trime’s statement of intention: “I want to sort this out in a way that works for both of us.” It leaves the other person’s assumptions about your motives with nowhere to land.
• You don’t need the other person to change first. One person showing up differently can shift the whole conversation.
Trime Persinger is a relationship coach and the author of Crossing the Bridge: Heal Your Relationships with Courageous Communication. Through her practice, Ennea Deep LLC, she helps people build better relationships and find their own voice, drawing on the Enneagram and years of teaching interpersonal communication. Her background includes conflict resolution, mediation, victim-offender dialogue, and prison chaplaincy. As a chaplain, she developed “The Art of Communication,” a communication-skills program for adults in custody, which earned her an Outstanding Service Award from the Oregon Department of Corrections.
Learn more about and connect with Trime Persinger:
Website: http://www.trimepersinger.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61553061496772
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trime-persinger-465b3b30/
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Transcript is AI generated and may contain errors
[00:00:00:00] Wilk Wilkinson: Trime Persinger once stayed after class with a homework sheet she couldn't finish. Ten you statements to rewrite as I statements. The first one was you make me angry. She didn't have the words. Her instructor ended up writing all ten for her today, Trime walks us through what she learned from that moment and why it worked. Even inside a prison where everyone said it wouldn't stick with me. Welcome back, my friends, to the podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson. Your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog. And those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross partisan organization working to make courageous citizenship the honored norm. This podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America, where we build together across political and societal divides each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ. Friends, it really is about bettering the world, one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the Hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Share it with a friend and visit Braver angels.org to join the movement to make courageous citizenship the honored norm. Looking for more news and less bias? Visit our great supporting partner all sides.com for balanced news fueled by media bias ratings. Friends. I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful, Derate the Hate episode. Let's get to it. Most of us think we communicate pretty well. Trime. Persinger thought so too, right up until her first conflict resolution training. When she realized how much she didn't know, she said she wanted to crawl into a hole. Instead, she started practicing. That practice became what she calls courageous communication. And it's the heart of her new book, Crossing the Bridge. Heal your relationships with Courageous Communication. The idea is simple and hard at the same time between what happens to us and how we react. There's a story we tell ourselves. Examine that story on the feeling that comes from it, and you get to choose your response instead of just having one. Trime has tested this in places where people said it would never work as a prison chaplain in Oregon. She built a communications course for adults in custody. The first reaction was, that won't work here. By the end of the first class, two of the men were asking to help her teach it. Trime and I met at the Braver Angels National Convention in Philadelphia earlier this year, where she walked up, introduced herself, and handed me this book, A Braver Angels Where I worked. Courageous citizenship is at the center of what comes next. And courageous communication is a big part of that. Let's get into it with my friend Trime Persinger. Here we go. Trime Persinger, welcome to the Derate the Hate podcast. It's good to see you today.
[00:03:44:21] Trime Persinger: Thank you. Wilk, it's wonderful to be here.
[00:03:48:01] Wilk Wilkinson: I'm happy to have you here. And we met at the Braver Angels National Convention in Philadelphia while back, and you came up to me and and introduced yourself, which I. I'm always grateful when people. do that. And, you brought me this book, Crossing the Bridge. Heal Your Relationships with Courageous Communication and Trime One of the big things that we're talking about at Braver Angels. This is I mean, this is the main thing in our next chapter at Braver Angels is courageous citizenship. Which courageous communication is, is certainly part of courageous citizenship. So. So when I looked at this and you told me a little bit about your story. we started talking about the idea of having you on the podcast. I, I'm just I'm excited to have you here. Trime. And and, what I'd like to do first is just get a little bit about, you know, your backstory and, I know this, this thing that you or the the multiple, obviously, things that you talk about in the book here, but it goes back a while to, I believe, an article that you had written some years back. Right. About courageous communication or or tell me how you you let me just do this. Tell me how you started thinking about this in terms of courageous communication. And, and then there's some, some very interesting things in there that I want to I want to dig a little bit deeper into, as far as, how you've used this, this framework and in the work that you've done, in prisons and stuff over the years. So, so let's let's start with, how did you get into this, this idea of courageous communication Trime?
[00:05:40:21] Trime Persinger: I took training in conflict resolution. Out of curiosity. And. It was. Life changing to I. I had always thought I had a reasonable communication skills and, you know, felt pretty good about my relationships and so on. And I took this one training and discovered that I didn't know anything and immediately started practicing the skills. I was, I was I felt like I wanted to crawl in a hole and never come out at the end of that first training, because I was so humiliated. It was really, really hard. But I was intrigued and I was challenged. And so I started using the skills. And it takes courage to do things differently, to change something so fundamental about yourself. It's really how we communicate is how we show up in the world. Yeah. And and actually using the skills, even when it didn't feel comfortable, it never felt comfortable at the beginning, but just deciding to do it anyway and and then discovering the rewards of crossing the bridge, of listening to other people, of asserting myself in a certain way. I just was, as I said, transformational. And the term courageous communication just emerged naturally out of that process.
[00:07:08:23] Wilk Wilkinson: Fantastic. So take me back to that training then, because I I'm curious. Well, now I'm curious because when when somebody, you know, when you say you were, you were embarrassed and, and you wanted to crawl into a hole. What what about this training? What was the thing that immediately set you back? And I the reason that I asked. Well, there's a couple things that you said there that I want to key on because I, I often talk about stepping outside of our comfort zone. That's where we're going to find the majority of our growth. Right. When we when we think we're comfortable in our, in our own little spot and we're staying there where it's comfortable and, and we're kind of in our own little safe space, we don't find a lot of growth there. We don't find we don't we don't find a need or not. We don't fulfill that need for purpose, at least in my personal experience. And many of the people that I've had conversations with, tree may agree with me that most growth comes outside of our comfort zone. Take me back to that that initial training that you did and and tell me, why was this so far outside of your comfort zone at that time?
[00:08:24:05] Trime Persinger: So I'll take you back even further. I grew up in a, like many people in a very dysfunctional home with domestic abuse and a lot of anger directed towards me, and I learned my own anger was not acceptable. So I learned to suppress my anger, but it leaked out. It, it, you know, I would be critical and judgmental and so on and didn't even know it. And when I stepped into this classroom, first of all, I remember the very first exercise she had as do. She went around the room and she said, say one thing that most people don't know about you. I actually now begin my trainings that way because it immediately introduces this get outside your comfort zone. And and then the training proceeded in. These skills were just completely unfamiliar. And the one that was the most. Difficult for me, and the one that took me most outside my comfort zone, was this skill of using eye language.
[00:09:24:00] Wilk Wilkinson: Okay.
[00:09:24:23] Trime Persinger: When I first learned when she first talked about it on day two of the training, I'm a have been a student of Buddhism for a long time, and so when I heard the term eye language, I immediately said, oh no, because I language would promote ego and and I and it was this enormous red flag that kind of it was almost like a ticker tape running through my mind. It was like the big no. But she talked about it was in such a matter of fact way, like it was clearly well established in the field. And I so I was I was aware of both things, my resistance and the sense that, well, this is common knowledge to everybody but me. And I thought, well, what I'm going to do is try it and see. And then I trusted my training, my spiritual path. I would know if it actually promoted my ego or not, but I couldn't do it. I just couldn't do it at the end of the first day. At the end of that day, after she introduced it, we had homework to do. We had to we had to take ten You statements and convert them to I statements. And so I asked her to stay after class with me, and she did. And I'm looking at this first statement in this tent. You make me angry. And I just like I just didn't have the words. That was the world I grew up in, was you make me angry everywhere. And that was the language I used.
[00:10:57:18] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah.
[00:10:58:10] Trime Persinger: And so I and so I never forget this very kind woman. And I was like, help, you know? And then she wrote down, I feel angry. Yeah. And then the second one and it was another statement of you statement and I couldn't I just couldn't do it. I didn't have the neural connections to do it. And she ended up doing all ten. Yeah. And and writing them down for me. So that was the biggest I mean, the whole thing, like I said, was, was just really rocked my world. And that was the most central piece of it.
[00:11:34:11] Wilk Wilkinson: Wow. And this is a this is a phenomenal realization. I think when people start to to recognize, realize, recognize whatever the, the, the power in, in you and I statements, you know, the, the because finger pointing is is something that comes very natural. To us as human beings. I mean, I, I know I'm raising a daughter that is, is one that, you know, she's we just naturally as little kids want to tattle on somebody else or or this happened to me and it's your fault and and, that thing, it's it's it it comes so natural. But like so many things in our in our lives as human beings, Trime is, is we have to start to we have to learn to overcome some of those natural tendencies that we have. And finger pointing is one of them. And in fact, I, I did an episode way back, probably before I even started doing interviews. I don't even know. But because a lot of, a lot of the work in the in the beginning stages of the Derate the Hate podcast was just me talking about my own mindset journey and and how I'd come overcome a lot of the anger and animus that I had from growing up. And one of the episodes that I did was, I think it may have been titled You Made Me Angry, you know? And and it was me talking about how, you know, it's not nobody can make me angry. I have to allow them. I have to give them the power. To to make make me angry. Now I can get angry, but that's as much on me as anything else. So these outside forces, we have to learn to deal with them. Okay, so I just wanted to share that because it's it's a phenomenal through line between your story.
[00:13:28:05] Trime Persinger: And I actually take a slightly different approach. Okay. But another transformational moment in my training was your feelings are valid. Somebody said to me, your feelings are valid and they're nobody's fault.
[00:13:43:14] Wilk Wilkinson: Okay?
[00:13:44:13] Trime Persinger: So when I feel angry, the feeling itself, I don't try to talk myself out of it. Well, sometimes I do. But the feeling itself, I need to honor the feeling because I've repressed it for so long and not make it about somebody else.
[00:13:58:23] Wilk Wilkinson: Okay?
[00:13:59:19] Trime Persinger: So my whole book, you know, is about communication without blame.
[00:14:05:09] Wilk Wilkinson: That's beautiful.
[00:14:07:10] Trime Persinger: Beautiful. So I can I can get angry. Anger is a feeling. It arises naturally. It's normal and it's mine.
[00:14:16:08] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, yeah. No. And that's hugely important. And and this is where I often this is why I have accused. I'm accused because I came up with this phrase a long time ago. Trime. But, you know, never allow your feelings to dictate your actions. And that's, that's something that I had to do. Personally, I built that into my core identity. But part of that was, was, was this idea that, you know, now I get accused of people say, oh, he's just some emotionless automaton. He has no feelings. Well, no, that's not true at all. I just don't allow my feelings to dictate my actions. So, but I appreciate that clarification, because what you said there, I think, is hugely important. We have to recognize our feelings. We have to own our feelings. That's an important thing. And then especially and this, you know, taking this to the next level in your book, here is how do we translate that into our communication style. How does that how does that end up working. Because. Well, in another part of your book is how we and I want you to tell me, because if I, if I took this the right way or not, but but sometimes there's this mechanism that we build inside ourselves where, where something happens, there's a stimulus, there's an event, there's this thing, and then sometimes it's not even the thing, but how we interpret the thing. And then things kind of go off the rails and how we communicate the thing. Talk to me more about that.
[00:15:53:23] Trime Persinger: So one of the I was I came up with this model myself and then I discovered comparable models elsewhere. But the idea is this thing happens, the event happens. And and what you're calling the interpretation, I call your story, okay. And the story gives rise. So it's your understanding. It's your the lens through which you see the event. Then there's the feeling. And the feeling actually has is completely dependent on the story you tell yourself. And then you can and then you can react, as you say, based on the feeling, or you can respond, which is a more intentional response, not dictated solely by the feeling, but the story is the central element of that four step model. And what you can do with your response actually is check out your story because something can happen and and well, the the this example from my work and teaching this inside of prison, if the guys are sitting at a table in the day room and somebody accused you of cheating, so that could that could be the event, so you could immediately go into fight mode, you could scramble and, you know, just withdraw and go back to your cell. You could freeze up and just try to gloss over it. I mean, there's a number of things you could do, but it all depends on the story you're telling yourself. If you believe that guy is out to get you, then you're going to be scared and go into some kind of a response. That is your natural way of responding when you feel scared. If it's your best friend and you know that he just got some bad news from home, that changes the story. Yes, you can cut him some slack. You can blow it off. You can say, come on, it's okay. I'm not cheating, you know? Do you want to go talk? Like your response completely changed, or your feelings completely change depending on what you believe to be true about the event. And this plays out over and over and over. And I'm thinking about the political polarization in the country right now. And the stories were telling ourselves about people on the other side are way exaggerated, supported by social media and and the and and they think the same thing about us. So this story piece is really, really important. And to be willing to examine the story we're telling ourselves and own our feelings. I mean, some things really, you get to have your feelings, but you you can actually it takes courage to be willing to look at the assumptions that you're making the story, which is the same as the stories you're telling yourself. And another central tenet of my work is that all behavior makes sense, and it's almost never people's behavior is almost never malicious.
[00:18:54:00] Wilk Wilkinson: Never what we believe it to be, right?
[00:18:55:23] Trime Persinger: No. So that story piece is just central to our understanding of human relationships.
[00:19:02:01] Wilk Wilkinson: It is. And the story we tell ourselves is so often. And this is why, you know, I, I've talked so often about how I try and it's a it's a conscious effort on my part. And I think it's a conscious effort on most people's part who start to recognize it. But I have to try hard quite often, not to ascribe motives to people when they do something that that I don't like or I don't agree with or, or whatever the case may be, or, or somebody doing something. But you're absolutely right. The importance of this concept in the in the bridge building space, in the, in the depolarization space, I don't think this this particular thing cannot be overstated. It is so important that we look we try to think about, you know, Amanda Ripley calls it the understory that, you know, there's so often where there's a lot more going on there than what we are telling ourselves. You know, we try to oversimplify things to make them make sense in our brain, but often there's so much more there. And I think my brain is my brain right now is going all these different places because immediately, you know, I think about, like Stephen Covey talking about you, no responsibility, our ability to respond or the way, the way that we choose to respond to some outside stimulus. Right. And he talked about in the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, he gave this incredible example of of this, you know, this morning train ride and, and this, this father jumps on the train with a bunch of unruly kids, and, and the kids are flying around and kicking papers and, and just, just causing havoc for everybody on the train. And he says, you know, you do you notice what these kids are doing? Aren't you going to do something? And and he's like, yeah, you know, I guess I should because I, I should. But their mother just died and I, and I guess I just don't know what to say to them. You know, we've just come from the hospital and immediately it changed the whole situation.
[00:21:19:12] Trime Persinger: Exactly, exactly. It's a perfect example.
[00:21:22:09] Wilk Wilkinson: My God, I still get goosebumps every time I think about that, that story. Because, you know, and that's why I say so often, I said it last night, an event that I was at, we don't know what other people are going through Trime. We just there's there's so many things that are going on in each of our lives, and, and there's no way for us to know all the different things that are going on. So our default position needs to we need to be kind.
[00:21:48:19] Trime Persinger: Yeah, yeah.
[00:21:49:16] Wilk Wilkinson: Talk more about some of some of these, some of the ways that this played out for you in the, in the training that you've done. With, with folks in the, in the correction system.
[00:22:01:11] Trime Persinger: So I'd actually like to the central skill that I teach the, the fundamental skill that I teach that I find foundational my own life and as transformational for everybody, it taught is the skill of repeating back, okay. And and what I found actually in Braver Angels in the work that I've done with them is in the lab, you know, in the sequence of skills that they call the lab skills, the knowledge piece. People are quite comfortable in areas of agreement with people they're talking to. On the other side, it's much harder to acknowledge what the person actually said that you disagree with. That's right. And yet that that is that is the kindness. That's the kindness piece. If you just emphasize areas of agreement, then then there's not that deeper acknowledgment. Here's what I'm here's what you're saying. And just because you acknowledge it and repeat it back does not remotely imply that you agree with it. People, I've discovered, have a really hard time with that. So I think that's kindness. That's that's extending yourself, putting someone else before yourself, someone you disagree with, but getting out of the way so you can really hear them and let them know that you've heard them. That's the kindness that you're talking about.
[00:23:30:03] Wilk Wilkinson: That absolutely is. And I'm glad you brought that up, because, I mean, it's easy to sit there and listen and acknowledge people that are on the same side of an issue that you are or whose values are or are perfectly aligned with your own. But it's much, much different to sit there and listen with intention. And you made a point there that I want to I want to accentuate because the idea that that listening and acknowledging is the same as agreement is the one that people need to get beyond. You know, we brought up Stephen Covey. This is a paradigm shift that needs to change for most people. Just because I'm listening to you and acknowledging what you're saying does not mean agreement. Dive in and just tackle that a little bit deeper, because I think that is something it's a paradigm shift that people really need to get their mind around.
[00:24:28:02] Trime Persinger: So that what what was lovely about this for me and what I find really helpful for other people, this is completely about a mechanical skill. You can feel what you feel, you can be upset or angry or whatever. And if you just do this skill of repeating back what you heard them say, then it builds that bridge no matter how you're feeling on the inside. And then they eventually might take an interest in your perspective. Or you can volunteer it at some point. But it's it's this mechanical thing. You can train yourself to do that. Like you say, it's it's hard for most of us because we do. We don't want to give an inch, and we have to be willing to give an inch. We have to be willing to say and acknowledge what you're saying makes complete sense to you. I don't get it. Help me to understand. So crossing the bridge into their world and and inviting them to tell you what that's about for them, where it came from. What what's what's their reasoning, what life experience has led them to that? That's kindness. That's way beyond the kindness of acknowledging common ground, way beyond. Because it takes it takes this kind of courage. It takes way more courage to do that than it does to say, well, we agree here, here and here.
[00:25:50:18] Wilk Wilkinson: yeah, this this idea of. Of kindness and tying kindness to to trying to better understand, how the other person is interpreting the world because we all and you and I know this Trime, We've all got different lived experiences. we've all seen the world through a different lens. We've had different, different things that have happened in, in our lives. And, and like I said, one of the one of the through lines in your story in mind, we we've dealt with some things earlier in our life that, that, that we allowed. It sounds like in your story and, and I know for sure in my story, I used to allow my emotions to get the best of me. I had a hair trigger temper and, and, and I just it was one of those things. But. And it is books like, seven Habits of Highly Effective People, that really started me on a journey of of seeing myself differently and, and interpreting the things that have happened in my life differently and, and not allowing things outside of my control to control me. Yeah. So when you were doing these trainings in, in the corrections facilities and, and and speaking with prisoners and working with them on. This better understanding of how they can respond to things. How would how was that received? How are they.
[00:27:25:08] Trime Persinger: That's a great question. So I start the first class I taught. I've been asked to teach it by an inmate, someone I knew pretty well who was a clerk, a chapel clerk. And, you know, he was just around and he we talked and he found out I'd done this before, and he said we should teach us. So it took me after I was a I'd been a chaplain for three years. I needed a while to learn how to do the job. But then, then I developed. I'd done the training before, so I took the materials that I'd used before and adapted it to a prison context. And I offered it and the, you know, people signed up and they came. And so I, you know, I did I went through my spiel first class and the response was, that won't work here. Are you crazy? This is prison, you know. And I said, maybe you're right. Why don't you go try and let me know? And I really didn't know, you know, but I thought it's worth a try. So go out and, you know, just try this stuff and come back and tell me how it went. Well, they came back and it was like, oh my gosh, everybody's human. It's like they did it with each other. They did it with staff. They did it with their families. That was the they were the most grateful for their improved relationships with their families, especially with their kids. so it just took, you know, trying the skills and discovering they work everywhere. And then at the end of that first class, two of the inmates came to me and said, we want to help you teach it. And so I had a two I always had co-facilitators after the first class. And so and people stopped saying, it won't work here because they were learning about it from people who were using it right in that environment.
[00:29:16:10] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. And the reason that I asked about the, the way that it was being received is because, you know, this, this thing that especially this thing that we do in the bridge building space, I mean, a lot of times people will look at it and just like you were saying there. They say, oh well that's never going to work. This is you know in, in, in your case, you know people were like their skepticism came because of the environment. Right. That you know we're in a prison. What do you think. You know, how is this going to work. But when we think about social science and the human condition and, and how we interact with other people, you know, it. The environment may be different, people may be different, the personalities may be different. But a lot of these tools are nearly universal in how they end up working in the end. And the results that we end up seeing, because, I mean, I've had people tell me, try me, and I want to get your your viewpoint on this is, you know, yeah, that that depolarization thing, it's all good. But we're just things are too divided right now. Our politics are too ugly. And you know the well the Democrats this or the Republicans that we just we we cannot continue to coexist with these, you know, all that stuff is nonsense. And you've done it. You've proved it in, in, in, you know, some of the harshest environments. Talk a little bit about that. And then I want as we round out our time here, I want, I want you know, you to tell the Derate the hate listeners the biggest thing that you know, that they can take away from this book, crossing the bridge. But talk a little bit real, real quick for me about, you know, just because the environment changes a little bit and the environment can be very harsh. But the tools are they work.
[00:31:09:08] Trime Persinger: It has one of the things I said repeatedly in the class, and I say it in the book, it only takes one person to change. You don't need to recruit other people to do it with you. If you show up differently, if you start taking a real interest in other people and you repeat back what they say, or you ask them questions or you, you just treat them with more kindness, then we're human. We have an inborn we're wired for connection. This distance that we are experiencing now in our politics, in everywhere. It's not our natural state. It's it's something that we've created and we don't have to stay there.
[00:31:58:10] Wilk Wilkinson: We don't have to stay there. And and and despite the the ugliness that people are seeing today. We are not nearly as divided as as many would have you believe. There are people that continue to, to drive this narrative that, oh, we've never been this divided, and we just can't overcome the differences between the right and the left and all of these things. They're nonsense. It's it's it's the fear, outrage and grievance that I constantly talk about and and how these outrage entrepreneurs and grievance grifters are benefiting from keeping us separated. We know that these tools that we use, like you talk about courageous connection in your book, Crossing the Bridge Trime and the the Work we do at Braver Angels promoting courageous citizenship, working together across different, building together across different. It works. So as we finish up our time here, Trime, what's the what's the biggest thing that you want people to know about this book? Crossing the Bridge. Heal your relationships with courageous communication.
[00:33:05:19] Trime Persinger: the central principle of the book is that is the statement of intention. I want to sort this out in a way that works for both of us, and this applies more to interpersonal conflict than it does to politics. We're not usually solving a problem. We're trying to understand one another. But in terms of interpersonal relationships and conflict, you don't even have to hold the intention. This isn't that. If you say it, then it then you realize, yeah, that is what I want, especially with a loved one. And having that knowing that that that's possible transforms a conversation. I've got stories of people just coming out and saying that, and it was like it changes everything. I want to sort this out in a way that works for both of us, because when somebody is upset with us, they're like, you talked about attributing motives just as we're attributing motives to them. They're attributing motives to us. And when you just clean the air, clear the air by saying, I want to sort this out in a way that works for both of us, that that attribution of motive they've assigned to us doesn't have anywhere to land. This shifts the energy.
[00:34:18:13] Wilk Wilkinson: That's right. Well, this has been a beautiful conversation Trime, again, thank you so much for introducing yourself at the convention and bringing this book to me. It's just a beautiful gift. And what you're doing is a beautiful gift. To to everybody that gets to encounter it. Thank you so much. The website is is tree me. That's t r I'm e persinger.com. That people can find that in the show notes. they can find you on Facebook, LinkedIn. And those things will be in the show notes. Any any final words for the listeners as we, finish our time here today?
[00:34:56:00] Trime Persinger: Never give up.
[00:34:57:23] Wilk Wilkinson: Never give up. Beautiful, Trime Persinger, thank you so much for joining me here today. And I do appreciate you very much.
[00:35:05:22] Trime Persinger: I appreciate you. Wilk, thank you for having me.
[00:35:09:04] Wilk Wilkinson: Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate The Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together. So please take a moment to visit Braver angels.org and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divide. This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friend, I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
Transcript is AI generated and may contain errors [00:00:00:00] Wilk Wilkinson: Trime Persinger once stayed after class with a homework sheet she couldn't finish. Ten you statements to rewrite as I statements. The first one was you make me angry. She didn't have the words.
Her instructor ended up writing all ten for her today, Trime walks us through what she learned from that moment and why it worked. Even inside a prison where everyone said it wouldn't stick with me. Welcome back, my friends, to the podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson.
Your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog. And those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross partisan organization working to make courageous citizenship the honored norm. This podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America, where we build together across political and societal divides each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ.
Friends, it really is about bettering the world, one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the Hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Share it with a friend and visit Braver angels.org to join the movement to make courageous citizenship the honored norm.
Looking for more news and less bias? Visit our great supporting partner all sides.com for balanced news fueled by media bias ratings. Friends. I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful, Derate the Hate episode.
Let's get to it. Most of us think we communicate pretty well. Trime. Persinger thought so too, right up until her first conflict resolution training.
When she realized how much she didn't know, she said she wanted to crawl into a hole. Instead, she started practicing. That practice became what she calls courageous communication. And it's the heart of her new book, Crossing the Bridge.
Heal your relationships with Courageous Communication. The idea is simple and hard at the same time between what happens to us and how we react. There's a story we tell ourselves. Examine that story on the feeling that comes from it, and you get to choose your response instead of just having one.
Trime has tested this in places where people said it would never work as a prison chaplain in Oregon. She built a communications course for adults in custody. The first reaction was, that won't work here. By the end of the first class, two of the men were asking to help her teach it.
Trime and I met at the Braver Angels National Convention in Philadelphia earlier this year, where she walked up, introduced herself, and handed me this book, A Braver Angels Where I worked. Courageous citizenship is at the center of what comes next. And courageous communication is a big part of that. Let's get into it with my friend Trime Persinger.
Here we go. Trime Persinger, welcome to the Derate the Hate podcast. It's good to see you today. [00:03:44:21] Trime Persinger: Thank you.
Wilk, it's wonderful to be here. [00:03:48:01] Wilk Wilkinson: I'm happy to have you here. And we met at the Braver Angels National Convention in Philadelphia while back, and you came up to me and and introduced yourself, which I. I'm always grateful when people.
do that. And, you brought me this book, Crossing the Bridge. Heal Your Relationships with Courageous Communication and Trime One of the big things that we're talking about at Braver Angels. This is I mean, this is the main thing in our next chapter at Braver Angels is courageous citizenship.
Which courageous communication is, is certainly part of courageous citizenship. So. So when I looked at this and you told me a little bit about your story. we started talking about the idea of having you on the podcast.
I, I'm just I'm excited to have you here. Trime. And and, what I'd like to do first is just get a little bit about, you know, your backstory and, I know this, this thing that you or the the multiple, obviously, things that you talk about in the book here, but it goes back a while to, I believe, an article that you had written some years back. Right.
About courageous communication or or tell me how you you let me just do this. Tell me how you started thinking about this in terms of courageous communication. And, and then there's some, some very interesting things in there that I want to I want to dig a little bit deeper into, as far as, how you've used this, this framework and in the work that you've done, in prisons and stuff over the years. So, so let's let's start with, how did you get into this, this idea of courageous communication Trime?
[00:05:40:21] Trime Persinger: I took training in conflict resolution. Out of curiosity. And. It was.
Life changing to I. I had always thought I had a reasonable communication skills and, you know, felt pretty good about my relationships and so on. And I took this one training and discovered that I didn't know anything and immediately started practicing the skills. I was, I was I felt like I wanted to crawl in a hole and never come out at the end of that first training, because I was so humiliated.
It was really, really hard. But I was intrigued and I was challenged. And so I started using the skills. And it takes courage to do things differently, to change something so fundamental about yourself.
It's really how we communicate is how we show up in the world. Yeah. And and actually using the skills, even when it didn't feel comfortable, it never felt comfortable at the beginning, but just deciding to do it anyway and and then discovering the rewards of crossing the bridge, of listening to other people, of asserting myself in a certain way. I just was, as I said, transformational.
And the term courageous communication just emerged naturally out of that process. [00:07:08:23] Wilk Wilkinson: Fantastic. So take me back to that training then, because I I'm curious. Well, now I'm curious because when when somebody, you know, when you say you were, you were embarrassed and, and you wanted to crawl into a hole.
What what about this training? What was the thing that immediately set you back? And I the reason that I asked. Well, there's a couple things that you said there that I want to key on because I, I often talk about stepping outside of our comfort zone.
That's where we're going to find the majority of our growth. Right. When we when we think we're comfortable in our, in our own little spot and we're staying there where it's comfortable and, and we're kind of in our own little safe space, we don't find a lot of growth there. We don't find we don't we don't find a need or not.
We don't fulfill that need for purpose, at least in my personal experience. And many of the people that I've had conversations with, tree may agree with me that most growth comes outside of our comfort zone. Take me back to that that initial training that you did and and tell me, why was this so far outside of your comfort zone at that time? [00:08:24:05] Trime Persinger: So I'll take you back even further.
I grew up in a, like many people in a very dysfunctional home with domestic abuse and a lot of anger directed towards me, and I learned my own anger was not acceptable. So I learned to suppress my anger, but it leaked out. It, it, you know, I would be critical and judgmental and so on and didn't even know it. And when I stepped into this classroom, first of all, I remember the very first exercise she had as do.
She went around the room and she said, say one thing that most people don't know about you. I actually now begin my trainings that way because it immediately introduces this get outside your comfort zone. And and then the training proceeded in. These skills were just completely unfamiliar.
And the one that was the most. Difficult for me, and the one that took me most outside my comfort zone, was this skill of using eye language. [00:09:24:00] Wilk Wilkinson: Okay. [00:09:24:23] Trime Persinger: When I first learned when she first talked about it on day two of the training, I'm a have been a student of Buddhism for a long time, and so when I heard the term eye language, I immediately said, oh no, because I language would promote ego and and I and it was this enormous red flag that kind of it was almost like a ticker tape running through my mind.
It was like the big no. But she talked about it was in such a matter of fact way, like it was clearly well established in the field. And I so I was I was aware of both things, my resistance and the sense that, well, this is common knowledge to everybody but me. And I thought, well, what I'm going to do is try it and see.
And then I trusted my training, my spiritual path. I would know if it actually promoted my ego or not, but I couldn't do it. I just couldn't do it at the end of the first day. At the end of that day, after she introduced it, we had homework to do.
We had to we had to take ten You statements and convert them to I statements. And so I asked her to stay after class with me, and she did. And I'm looking at this first statement in this tent. You make me angry.
And I just like I just didn't have the words. That was the world I grew up in, was you make me angry everywhere. And that was the language I used. [00:10:57:18] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah.
[00:10:58:10] Trime Persinger: And so I and so I never forget this very kind woman. And I was like, help, you know? And then she wrote down, I feel angry. Yeah.
And then the second one and it was another statement of you statement and I couldn't I just couldn't do it. I didn't have the neural connections to do it. And she ended up doing all ten. Yeah.
And and writing them down for me. So that was the biggest I mean, the whole thing, like I said, was, was just really rocked my world. And that was the most central piece of it. [00:11:34:11] Wilk Wilkinson: Wow.
And this is a this is a phenomenal realization. I think when people start to to recognize, realize, recognize whatever the, the, the power in, in you and I statements, you know, the, the because finger pointing is is something that comes very natural. To us as human beings. I mean, I, I know I'm raising a daughter that is, is one that, you know, she's we just naturally as little kids want to tattle on somebody else or or this happened to me and it's your fault and and, that thing, it's it's it it comes so natural.
But like so many things in our in our lives as human beings, Trime is, is we have to start to we have to learn to overcome some of those natural tendencies that we have. And finger pointing is one of them. And in fact, I, I did an episode way back, probably before I even started doing interviews. I don't even know.
But because a lot of, a lot of the work in the in the beginning stages of the Derate the Hate podcast was just me talking about my own mindset journey and and how I'd come overcome a lot of the anger and animus that I had from growing up. And one of the episodes that I did was, I think it may have been titled You Made Me Angry, you know? And and it was me talking about how, you know, it's not nobody can make me angry. I have to allow them.
I have to give them the power. To to make make me angry. Now I can get angry, but that's as much on me as anything else. So these outside forces, we have to learn to deal with them.
Okay, so I just wanted to share that because it's it's a phenomenal through line between your story. [00:13:28:05] Trime Persinger: And I actually take a slightly different approach. Okay. But another transformational moment in my training was your feelings are valid.
Somebody said to me, your feelings are valid and they're nobody's fault. [00:13:43:14] Wilk Wilkinson: Okay? [00:13:44:13] Trime Persinger: So when I feel angry, the feeling itself, I don't try to talk myself out of it. Well, sometimes I do.
But the feeling itself, I need to honor the feeling because I've repressed it for so long and not make it about somebody else. [00:13:58:23] Wilk Wilkinson: Okay? [00:13:59:19] Trime Persinger: So my whole book, you know, is about communication without blame. [00:14:05:09] Wilk Wilkinson: That's beautiful.
[00:14:07:10] Trime Persinger: Beautiful. So I can I can get angry. Anger is a feeling. It arises naturally.
It's normal and it's mine. [00:14:16:08] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, yeah. No. And that's hugely important.
And and this is where I often this is why I have accused. I'm accused because I came up with this phrase a long time ago. Trime. But, you know, never allow your feelings to dictate your actions.
And that's, that's something that I had to do. Personally, I built that into my core identity. But part of that was, was, was this idea that, you know, now I get accused of people say, oh, he's just some emotionless automaton. He has no feelings.
Well, no, that's not true at all. I just don't allow my feelings to dictate my actions. So, but I appreciate that clarification, because what you said there, I think, is hugely important. We have to recognize our feelings.
We have to own our feelings. That's an important thing. And then especially and this, you know, taking this to the next level in your book, here is how do we translate that into our communication style. How does that how does that end up working.
Because. Well, in another part of your book is how we and I want you to tell me, because if I, if I took this the right way or not, but but sometimes there's this mechanism that we build inside ourselves where, where something happens, there's a stimulus, there's an event, there's this thing, and then sometimes it's not even the thing, but how we interpret the thing. And then things kind of go off the rails and how we communicate the thing. Talk to me more about that.
[00:15:53:23] Trime Persinger: So one of the I was I came up with this model myself and then I discovered comparable models elsewhere. But the idea is this thing happens, the event happens. And and what you're calling the interpretation, I call your story, okay. And the story gives rise.
So it's your understanding. It's your the lens through which you see the event. Then there's the feeling. And the feeling actually has is completely dependent on the story you tell yourself.
And then you can and then you can react, as you say, based on the feeling, or you can respond, which is a more intentional response, not dictated solely by the feeling, but the story is the central element of that four step model. And what you can do with your response actually is check out your story because something can happen and and well, the the this example from my work and teaching this inside of prison, if the guys are sitting at a table in the day room and somebody accused you of cheating, so that could that could be the event, so you could immediately go into fight mode, you could scramble and, you know, just withdraw and go back to your cell. You could freeze up and just try to gloss over it. I mean, there's a number of things you could do, but it all depends on the story you're telling yourself.
If you believe that guy is out to get you, then you're going to be scared and go into some kind of a response. That is your natural way of responding when you feel scared. If it's your best friend and you know that he just got some bad news from home, that changes the story. Yes, you can cut him some slack.
You can blow it off. You can say, come on, it's okay. I'm not cheating, you know? Do you want to go talk?
Like your response completely changed, or your feelings completely change depending on what you believe to be true about the event. And this plays out over and over and over. And I'm thinking about the political polarization in the country right now. And the stories were telling ourselves about people on the other side are way exaggerated, supported by social media and and the and and they think the same thing about us.
So this story piece is really, really important. And to be willing to examine the story we're telling ourselves and own our feelings. I mean, some things really, you get to have your feelings, but you you can actually it takes courage to be willing to look at the assumptions that you're making the story, which is the same as the stories you're telling yourself. And another central tenet of my work is that all behavior makes sense, and it's almost never people's behavior is almost never malicious.
[00:18:54:00] Wilk Wilkinson: Never what we believe it to be, right? [00:18:55:23] Trime Persinger: No. So that story piece is just central to our understanding of human relationships. [00:19:02:01] Wilk Wilkinson: It is.
And the story we tell ourselves is so often. And this is why, you know, I, I've talked so often about how I try and it's a it's a conscious effort on my part. And I think it's a conscious effort on most people's part who start to recognize it. But I have to try hard quite often, not to ascribe motives to people when they do something that that I don't like or I don't agree with or, or whatever the case may be, or, or somebody doing something.
But you're absolutely right. The importance of this concept in the in the bridge building space, in the, in the depolarization space, I don't think this this particular thing cannot be overstated. It is so important that we look we try to think about, you know, Amanda Ripley calls it the understory that, you know, there's so often where there's a lot more going on there than what we are telling ourselves. You know, we try to oversimplify things to make them make sense in our brain, but often there's so much more there.
And I think my brain is my brain right now is going all these different places because immediately, you know, I think about, like Stephen Covey talking about you, no responsibility, our ability to respond or the way, the way that we choose to respond to some outside stimulus. Right. And he talked about in the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, he gave this incredible example of of this, you know, this morning train ride and, and this, this father jumps on the train with a bunch of unruly kids, and, and the kids are flying around and kicking papers and, and just, just causing havoc for everybody on the train. And he says, you know, you do you notice what these kids are doing?
Aren't you going to do something? And and he's like, yeah, you know, I guess I should because I, I should. But their mother just died and I, and I guess I just don't know what to say to them. You know, we've just come from the hospital and immediately it changed the whole situation.
[00:21:19:12] Trime Persinger: Exactly, exactly. It's a perfect example. [00:21:22:09] Wilk Wilkinson: My God, I still get goosebumps every time I think about that, that story. Because, you know, and that's why I say so often, I said it last night, an event that I was at, we don't know what other people are going through Trime.
We just there's there's so many things that are going on in each of our lives, and, and there's no way for us to know all the different things that are going on. So our default position needs to we need to be kind. [00:21:48:19] Trime Persinger: Yeah, yeah. [00:21:49:16] Wilk Wilkinson: Talk more about some of some of these, some of the ways that this played out for you in the, in the training that you've done.
With, with folks in the, in the correction system. [00:22:01:11] Trime Persinger: So I'd actually like to the central skill that I teach the, the fundamental skill that I teach that I find foundational my own life and as transformational for everybody, it taught is the skill of repeating back, okay. And and what I found actually in Braver Angels in the work that I've done with them is in the lab, you know, in the sequence of skills that they call the lab skills, the knowledge piece. People are quite comfortable in areas of agreement with people they're talking to.
On the other side, it's much harder to acknowledge what the person actually said that you disagree with. That's right. And yet that that is that is the kindness. That's the kindness piece.
If you just emphasize areas of agreement, then then there's not that deeper acknowledgment. Here's what I'm here's what you're saying. And just because you acknowledge it and repeat it back does not remotely imply that you agree with it. People, I've discovered, have a really hard time with that.
So I think that's kindness. That's that's extending yourself, putting someone else before yourself, someone you disagree with, but getting out of the way so you can really hear them and let them know that you've heard them. That's the kindness that you're talking about. [00:23:30:03] Wilk Wilkinson: That absolutely is.
And I'm glad you brought that up, because, I mean, it's easy to sit there and listen and acknowledge people that are on the same side of an issue that you are or whose values are or are perfectly aligned with your own. But it's much, much different to sit there and listen with intention. And you made a point there that I want to I want to accentuate because the idea that that listening and acknowledging is the same as agreement is the one that people need to get beyond. You know, we brought up Stephen Covey.
This is a paradigm shift that needs to change for most people. Just because I'm listening to you and acknowledging what you're saying does not mean agreement. Dive in and just tackle that a little bit deeper, because I think that is something it's a paradigm shift that people really need to get their mind around. [00:24:28:02] Trime Persinger: So that what what was lovely about this for me and what I find really helpful for other people, this is completely about a mechanical skill.
You can feel what you feel, you can be upset or angry or whatever. And if you just do this skill of repeating back what you heard them say, then it builds that bridge no matter how you're feeling on the inside. And then they eventually might take an interest in your perspective. Or you can volunteer it at some point.
But it's it's this mechanical thing. You can train yourself to do that. Like you say, it's it's hard for most of us because we do. We don't want to give an inch, and we have to be willing to give an inch.
We have to be willing to say and acknowledge what you're saying makes complete sense to you. I don't get it. Help me to understand. So crossing the bridge into their world and and inviting them to tell you what that's about for them, where it came from.
What what's what's their reasoning, what life experience has led them to that? That's kindness. That's way beyond the kindness of acknowledging common ground, way beyond. Because it takes it takes this kind of courage.
It takes way more courage to do that than it does to say, well, we agree here, here and here. [00:25:50:18] Wilk Wilkinson: yeah, this this idea of. Of kindness and tying kindness to to trying to better understand, how the other person is interpreting the world because we all and you and I know this Trime, We've all got different lived experiences. we've all seen the world through a different lens.
We've had different, different things that have happened in, in our lives. And, and like I said, one of the one of the through lines in your story in mind, we we've dealt with some things earlier in our life that, that, that we allowed. It sounds like in your story and, and I know for sure in my story, I used to allow my emotions to get the best of me. I had a hair trigger temper and, and, and I just it was one of those things.
But. And it is books like, seven Habits of Highly Effective People, that really started me on a journey of of seeing myself differently and, and interpreting the things that have happened in my life differently and, and not allowing things outside of my control to control me. Yeah. So when you were doing these trainings in, in the corrections facilities and, and and speaking with prisoners and working with them on.
This better understanding of how they can respond to things. How would how was that received? How are they. [00:27:25:08] Trime Persinger: That's a great question.
So I start the first class I taught. I've been asked to teach it by an inmate, someone I knew pretty well who was a clerk, a chapel clerk. And, you know, he was just around and he we talked and he found out I'd done this before, and he said we should teach us. So it took me after I was a I'd been a chaplain for three years.
I needed a while to learn how to do the job. But then, then I developed. I'd done the training before, so I took the materials that I'd used before and adapted it to a prison context. And I offered it and the, you know, people signed up and they came.
And so I, you know, I did I went through my spiel first class and the response was, that won't work here. Are you crazy? This is prison, you know. And I said, maybe you're right.
Why don't you go try and let me know? And I really didn't know, you know, but I thought it's worth a try. So go out and, you know, just try this stuff and come back and tell me how it went. Well, they came back and it was like, oh my gosh, everybody's human.
It's like they did it with each other. They did it with staff. They did it with their families. That was the they were the most grateful for their improved relationships with their families, especially with their kids.
so it just took, you know, trying the skills and discovering they work everywhere. And then at the end of that first class, two of the inmates came to me and said, we want to help you teach it. And so I had a two I always had co-facilitators after the first class. And so and people stopped saying, it won't work here because they were learning about it from people who were using it right in that environment.
[00:29:16:10] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. And the reason that I asked about the, the way that it was being received is because, you know, this, this thing that especially this thing that we do in the bridge building space, I mean, a lot of times people will look at it and just like you were saying there. They say, oh well that's never going to work. This is you know in, in, in your case, you know people were like their skepticism came because of the environment.
Right. That you know we're in a prison. What do you think. You know, how is this going to work.
But when we think about social science and the human condition and, and how we interact with other people, you know, it. The environment may be different, people may be different, the personalities may be different. But a lot of these tools are nearly universal in how they end up working in the end. And the results that we end up seeing, because, I mean, I've had people tell me, try me, and I want to get your your viewpoint on this is, you know, yeah, that that depolarization thing, it's all good.
But we're just things are too divided right now. Our politics are too ugly. And you know the well the Democrats this or the Republicans that we just we we cannot continue to coexist with these, you know, all that stuff is nonsense. And you've done it.
You've proved it in, in, in, you know, some of the harshest environments. Talk a little bit about that. And then I want as we round out our time here, I want, I want you know, you to tell the Derate the hate listeners the biggest thing that you know, that they can take away from this book, crossing the bridge. But talk a little bit real, real quick for me about, you know, just because the environment changes a little bit and the environment can be very harsh.
But the tools are they work. [00:31:09:08] Trime Persinger: It has one of the things I said repeatedly in the class, and I say it in the book, it only takes one person to change. You don't need to recruit other people to do it with you. If you show up differently, if you start taking a real interest in other people and you repeat back what they say, or you ask them questions or you, you just treat them with more kindness, then we're human.
We have an inborn we're wired for connection. This distance that we are experiencing now in our politics, in everywhere. It's not our natural state. It's it's something that we've created and we don't have to stay there.
[00:31:58:10] Wilk Wilkinson: We don't have to stay there. And and and despite the the ugliness that people are seeing today. We are not nearly as divided as as many would have you believe. There are people that continue to, to drive this narrative that, oh, we've never been this divided, and we just can't overcome the differences between the right and the left and all of these things.
They're nonsense. It's it's it's the fear, outrage and grievance that I constantly talk about and and how these outrage entrepreneurs and grievance grifters are benefiting from keeping us separated. We know that these tools that we use, like you talk about courageous connection in your book, Crossing the Bridge Trime and the the Work we do at Braver Angels promoting courageous citizenship, working together across different, building together across different. It works.
So as we finish up our time here, Trime, what's the what's the biggest thing that you want people to know about this book? Crossing the Bridge. Heal your relationships with courageous communication. [00:33:05:19] Trime Persinger: the central principle of the book is that is the statement of intention.
I want to sort this out in a way that works for both of us, and this applies more to interpersonal conflict than it does to politics. We're not usually solving a problem. We're trying to understand one another. But in terms of interpersonal relationships and conflict, you don't even have to hold the intention.
This isn't that. If you say it, then it then you realize, yeah, that is what I want, especially with a loved one. And having that knowing that that that's possible transforms a conversation. I've got stories of people just coming out and saying that, and it was like it changes everything.
I want to sort this out in a way that works for both of us, because when somebody is upset with us, they're like, you talked about attributing motives just as we're attributing motives to them. They're attributing motives to us. And when you just clean the air, clear the air by saying, I want to sort this out in a way that works for both of us, that that attribution of motive they've assigned to us doesn't have anywhere to land. This shifts the energy.
[00:34:18:13] Wilk Wilkinson: That's right. Well, this has been a beautiful conversation Trime, again, thank you so much for introducing yourself at the convention and bringing this book to me. It's just a beautiful gift. And what you're doing is a beautiful gift.
To to everybody that gets to encounter it. Thank you so much. The website is is tree me. That's t r I'm e persinger.com.
That people can find that in the show notes. they can find you on Facebook, LinkedIn. And those things will be in the show notes. Any any final words for the listeners as we, finish our time here today?
[00:34:56:00] Trime Persinger: Never give up. [00:34:57:23] Wilk Wilkinson: Never give up. Beautiful, Trime Persinger, thank you so much for joining me here today. And I do appreciate you very much.
[00:35:05:22] Trime Persinger: I appreciate you. Wilk, thank you for having me. [00:35:09:04] Wilk Wilkinson: Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button.
If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate The Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together. So please take a moment to visit Braver angels.org and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divide. This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there.
Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friend, I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week.
Take care.
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