Friendship Across the Political Divide: Lessons From William F. Buckley Jr. – DTH Episode 337 with Josh Cohen

Wednesday, October 14, 2026

Show Notes

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William F. Buckley Jr. had strong opinions and never apologized for them. He also spent forty years as close friends with liberal economist John Kenneth Galbraith, and decades more as a friend of Ira Glasser, longtime head of the ACLU. When a fellow conservative publicly complained that Buckley had too many liberal friends, Buckley’s reply was that he didn’t spend his time with them discussing politics.

Josh Cohen’s book, William F. Buckley Jr.’s Guide to Friendship in a Polarized Era, walks through those friendships one at a time and draws a lesson from each that still holds up. Wilk and Josh—introduced by their mutual friend Jeff Schoep—talk about what Buckley understood that so many of us have lost: a person is more than their politics, acknowledgment isn’t agreement, and there’s a real line between holding a conviction and becoming a fanatic.

Wilk shares how he went much of his early adult life without knowing or caring who was a Republican and who was a Democrat—and how little it mattered to the friendships he built. Josh offers a simple picture of fanaticism, borrowed by Buckley from Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes: it’s reasonable to say you own the space above your roof. It’s something else to claim the whole column of sky above it, so that no plane and no child’s kite can pass through without your permission.

Key Themes

•         Keep the personal personal. Buckley had Firing Line, National Review, his books, and his speeches. That’s where his opinions went. With friends, he didn’t press his politics or his Catholic faith unless the conversation turned there on its own.

•         A person is not their politics. Ira Glasser said he’d known plenty of people who said all the right things about justice and were terrible people in private—and that Buckley was the opposite. Wilk and Josh talk about how quickly we now reduce someone to a caricature built from a single view.

•         Conviction vs. fanaticism. Through Buckley’s friendship with Galbraith, Josh explores what separates someone with strong beliefs from someone who can’t let any conversation pass without a fight.

•         Understanding vs. misunderstanding. In any discussion, Josh argues, you’re either working to understand the other person or working to misunderstand them. The straw man is the giveaway—and people can usually tell which one you’re doing.

•         Acknowledgment isn’t agreement. Wilk pushes back on the outrage entrepreneurs and grievance grifters who’ve convinced people that hearing someone out means giving up your principles.

Takeaways

•         You can hold strong convictions and still keep close friends who don’t share them. Buckley did it for decades.

•         Not every conversation has to become a political one. Save the debate for the places it belongs.

•         Listening to understand someone is not the same as conceding the point. Even when you fall short of understanding, the effort shows.

•         When you catch yourself reducing someone to one belief, remember what else you know about them. You might disagree on the death penalty—and he might still be the terrible golfer you love taking money from.

•         Josh’s book is available from Fidelis Publishing, which is offering a discount through its online store, and wherever books are sold. You can also hear his conversations with people who witnessed history on the Eyewitness History podcast.

About Josh Cohen

Josh Cohen is a conservative writer based in Minnesota whose work has appeared in Townhall, Right Side Broadcasting Network, and other outlets. He hosts the Eyewitness History podcast, where he has interviewed World War II veterans, Holocaust survivors, a co-founder of Apple, and former Columbine High School principal Frank DeAngelis. His book is William F. Buckley Jr.’s Guide to Friendship in a Polarized Era: Lessons in Civility from a Catholic Conservative Icon (Fidelis Publishing).

Learn more about and connect with Josh Cohen:

Book: https://www.amazon.com/William-Buckley-Guide-Friendship-Polarized/dp/1956454926

Publisher: https://www.fidelispublishing.com

Podcast: https://www.lifeaudio.com/eyewitness-history

X: https://x.com/JoshCohenWriter

Email: joshwaltercohen@gmail.com

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Show Transcript

Transcript is AI generated and may contain errors

[00:00:00:00] Wilk Wilkinson: A fellow conservative, once complained that William F Buckley Jr had too many liberal friends. That was the criticism when it was put to him on C-Span. Buckley seemed puzzled. He said he didn't spend his time with his friends discussing politics. My guest wrote a book about those friendships and about what Buckley understood that a lot of us seem to have forgotten. Welcome back, my friends, to the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson. Your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog. And those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate The Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross Partizan organization working to make courageous citizenship the honored norm. This podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America, where we build together across political and societal divides each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ. Friends, it really is about bettering the world, one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the Hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Share it with a friend and visit Braver angels.org to join the movement to make courageous citizenship the honored norm. Looking for more news and less bias? Visit our great supporting partner all sides.com for balanced news fueled by media bias ratings. Friends. I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful, Derate the Hate episode. Let's get to it. William F Buckley Jr helped to build the modern conservative movement. He founded National Review, hosted Firing Line for more than 30 years, and never once hit a strong opinion. He also counted liberals among his closest friends. A Harvard economist he went skiing with for decades the head of the ACLU. Writers who disagreed with him on nearly everything. Josh Cohen is a conservative writer here in Minnesota and the host of the Eyewitness History podcast, where he talks with people who lived through historical events firsthand. Our mutual friend Jeff Scoop introduced us, and I'm sure glad he did. Josh's book, William F Buckley Juniors Guide to Friendship in a Polarized ERA, takes Buckley's friendships one at a time and pulls out something we can actually use today. Keep the personal. Personal. Don't let conviction turn into fanaticism. And remember that listening to someone isn't the same as agreeing with them. If your Thanksgiving table has gotten a little awkward or maybe harder to sit at, Josh has some ideas worth hearing. Let's get into it with my friend Josh Cohen. Here we go. Josh Cohen. Welcome to the Derate the Hate podcast, brother. It's good to see you today.

[00:03:32:11] Josh Cohen: Yeah, it's good to see you. Wilk, thanks for having me on I appreciate it.

[00:03:36:06] Wilk Wilkinson: Absolutely. our common friend, Jeff Schoep had reached out a while back and and introduced us. Josh and got a chance to talk to you a little bit. couple of weeks ago about what you've been doing, the work that you've been doing, and, and I was very interested in getting to know more about, not only you, but the book of this book that you've you've written this William F Buckley Juniors Guide to friendship in a Polarized ERA. this book is, is one that I think is vitally important right now. Anybody that's talking about how to bridge differences and work together across divides and things like that, Josh, is is somebody that I want to have in my circle. So I'm, I'm very glad that that Jeff introduced us and as we get started. Well, I also want to mention you've got a podcast of your own as well that, that we'll talk a little bit more about, but it's, it's called the Eyewitness History Podcast. Is that right? That's.

[00:04:36:10] Josh Cohen: Yes, sir. Eyewitness history.

[00:04:39:19] Wilk Wilkinson: Very cool man. Well, we'll talk a little bit about that too. We'll talk about the book that really stands out as, as, as leaning very closely to the work that I do. So we'll talk a little bit about that. But, but before we before we get started, I want to learn a little bit more about you, Josh, and bring a little bit more about your backstory to the to the DTH listeners. So, let's first learn about, Josh Cohen. What, what what made you start thinking about, this polarized era and What about your story led you to. William F Buckley?

[00:05:18:07] Josh Cohen: Yeah, absolutely. Well. Thank you. Wilk, first off, let me join you in thanking our mutual friend Jeff Schoep for connecting us. So, special thanks to him. And also, I think I heard you pay me at least three compliments and everything you just said. So thank you for all that as as well, Wilk, Yeah. So my name is Josh Cohen, living out in the Minnesota area here. I have been interested in William F Buckley Junior for a very long time, and I should probably start will not assuming that everyone knows who he is or was, I should say so, just to keep it in brief. William F Buckley Jr was the spearhead of the new conservative movement that began in the mid 1950s and persists through to today. Though we can probably all agree in rather evolved and mutated form. But he, he founded a conservative mainstay publication called National Review, which is still around and still doing its thing all these years later. And the thing he's probably most famous for, for contemporary conservatives, is he had a show called The Firing Line, had it for over 30 years. Yep. Holds a unique distinction of being the longest running public affairs program with a single host in history. And I wanted to write about him for a very long time because everything about his, his accomplishments, the way he carried himself, certainly his vernacular, he was infamous for his vocabulary, fascinated me. The problem is he's been written to death. I mean, he himself has two autobiographies to give you an idea about the scope he's been written And I hit on this device after I realized that he was well known for keeping friends with liberals. We talked about that in a previous conversation. Wilk, almost all of his friends were of the liberal persuasion, which may not seem extraordinary, but when you consider the conservative seriousness and conservative thought that he embodied and preached, and he had plenty of his own opinions, not all of them popular. Right? Right. Yeah. That was something that fascinated me. So I had thought, okay, maybe something about his relationships. Maybe there's something there. And it it that was close, but it wasn't. It wasn't there just yet. So when I was in conversation with my publisher, just trying to figure out how how best to make this work. We in in discussion, we hit upon the device of, well, we are so polarized today. And this is something that's been said to death. I'm by no means the first person to say this, and you're not the first person to hear it. With how polarized, we are in every facet of American life, from our institutions, journalism, for instance, to how we relate on a personal level. You know, those those, as I say, those things giving dinners are getting harder and harder to do to suffer through. and we had thought, well, what if we made it one part biography and then one part cultural critique? And I thought, that's the device. We got it. So what I do in the book, William Buckley Genius Guide to Friendship and a Polarized ERA, is I basically pull a relationship that he had with someone of the liberal persuasion, whoever that may be. Christopher Hitchens, Norman Mailer, Allenstein, you name them. And I pull out that friendship of value, a value that can be easily assimilate at scale in today's society. So for instance. Yeah. So for instance, my favorite one, the one that just pops in my head is we're talking is I have a whole chapter against fanaticism. A don't be a fanatic in in your views. And we can talk more about that if you like. Wilk, I'm just trying to give you a four zero zero foot view. As best I can Yeah. So I like to consider it truly a guide to friendship. And I myself appear in the book as not a character per se, but I sort of write it as if I'm sort of shepherding, shepherding you through this, this landscape of Buckley's friendships and and pulling out these various values. So, yeah, that's the whole crux of the book, a little bit about who I am and why we're talking now.

[00:09:14:10] Wilk Wilkinson: Well, and that leads me to a number of different things that I'm thinking about here, Josh. we live in this era. And I think, you know, when you say it's, in a, in a polarized era guide to friendship and I polarized era, we're seeing so much of this stuff where politicians are more interested or interested in, in, you know, driving and, and exacerbating contempt for those on the other side than they are about trying to gain understanding about who they are or, or trying to build friendships and alliances with people who who have differing opinions than they do. What do you think it was about? About William F Buckley? Who who? I mean, this was his whole life. I mean, he was doing this stuff for so long, like you said it, the firing line over over 30 years and building the National Review, what would you say about Buckley that that really stands out to you as as saying, you know what? I am a very, very opinionated person. I have very strong beliefs and principles about conservatism and what I think the government should and should not be doing. But that doesn't mean I see the other side as an enemy. I don't have to. I don't, you know, disagreement doesn't have to be disagreeable. I can enter this this conversation with curiosity over contempt. What was it about Buckley that really stands out to you in that way? Josh?

[00:10:50:20] Josh Cohen: Yeah, You stole my favorite line already. Wilk with the. In today's culture, we can disagree without being disagreeable. I have the same line in my in my book. He understood that. But actually, to give you, I think, a final point in my answer here. So he, was on C-Span with the great Brian Lamb. I think it was part of his of Lamb's Summer series, just talking about his book. And, lamb gave him a criticism that was given of him by another conservative, a guy named Art Emmett Tyrrell, founder of the The American Spectator. Just another, another conservative outlet. And the criticism was William F Buckley Jr spends far too many time engaging with liberals. He has too many liberal friends. This was the actual criticism, and I spelled this out in the book. And I also make the aside that even the fact that that's a criticism is its own problem, right? Anyone can be friends.

[00:11:47:06] Wilk Wilkinson: With.

[00:11:48:02] Josh Cohen: Anyone they want. Yeah. But Buckley said something that I absolutely love. He looked at Brian Lamb kind of quizzically and simply said, I don't spend my time discussing politics. My time discussing politics. And then, so that's on the political point, on the religious point. And he was a very, very devout Catholic. In another part of the book, he says, you know, I don't ever preach my own religion unless, you know, I'm specially prompted or if accidental turns in conversation, lurch in that direction, as they might well, over a whiskey sour or two. Right. And cigars, he would say, you know. Yes, yes, I have Firing line. I have National Review, I have my speaking engagements, I have my books. But basically I, I shuffle all this stuff, my opinions into the professional realm, and I don't let, I don't let that overlap with my, with my personal. And I think that is a a damn good lesson for all of us to, to bear in mind. And also, by the way, I'm obviously chomping at the bit to discuss fanaticism today, apparently, but that that's, apparently I just woke up, you know, choosing violence in that way.

[00:13:02:15] Wilk Wilkinson: Right, right.

[00:13:03:21] Josh Cohen: But but this speaks to him not being a fanatic, because if he was a fanatic, he would surely be chomping at the bit to discuss his politics and his religion. In, in any scenario. So I think finally, to answer your question, I think he had his ducks in a row in terms of how he wanted to communicate with his friends. And he, he, he didn't take them in combination, if that makes sense. He kept he kept his personal, personal, and he kept his professional professional. And again, I think that's this was something that we used to know how to do. Right. And just to, just to keep it. Yeah. And just to keep it on the ground floor here. You know, all of us, you, me and our listeners, a mutual audience can probably not, can probably easily imagine being around the Thanksgiving dinner table. Oh, with that uncle who grew up during Vietnam, who, you know, might use certain terms for certain people that might be considered outdated, you know, this and that, but nonetheless would know that said uncle or said grandfather or whatever was a good person and, you know, but yeah, nowadays I feel like we've lost a bit of that nuance and that if someone uses a term that is considered outdated, that must mean that they're the worst possible version of what you think they are. Does that make sense?

[00:14:30:00] Wilk Wilkinson: Oh, yeah, it makes absolutely sense. And I've talked about this so often, Josh and that that, you know what you're talking about right there. I immediately my mind goes. And the greatest example of this is, is Clint Eastwood's character in, Gran Torino. It's it's just it's it's such a phenomenal movie. It's such a phenomenal story. And and he is this cantankerous old dude that that definitely does not pull any punches in the way that he talks about people of minorities. But, you know, deep down that this is a very good dude that will help people. And he's just a good heart. But yeah, and that goes to a bigger point. Not to get too deep into the Gran Torino thing, because I know that that really that movie is, is a trigger for a lot of people. The bigger point that I'm making, Josh, the the bigger point that I'm making is, is the fact that and what I'm hearing you say there when you're saying it is, there was a time in a place where we did not have to make every single thing into a political argument, you know, we did not have to deal with every person that is now entrenched their political identity into their core identity. And William F Buckley had a great separation there in the sense that, you know, he's not going to push his religion on other people if it comes up and it's in the appropriate context and in the appropriate place, he'll have that discussion. But not everything. Like like he said, you know it. You know, I don't just I don't discuss politics all the time. And we never used to I mean, I went through the first 30 some years of my life. Not talking to people about politics hardly at all. I mean, but certainly the first 20, 25, 26, 28 years of my life, I had no idea the difference between a Republican and a Democrat. And I didn't want to know. It made no difference to me at all. And I hung out with people from every walk of life, every, you know, color, race, origin. It did not matter, because politics was not part of my core identity. And it had no place in any conversation that I was having.

[00:16:49:05] Josh Cohen: Well, and I'll bet, I'll bet if, conversations ever did touch on politics, if someone said, oh, I'm a Democrat, oh, I'm a Republican, I'll bet it was something like finding out that said person was also left handed or had blue eyes. It was not the it.

[00:17:06:06] Wilk Wilkinson: Was much relevant exactly.

[00:17:08:07] Josh Cohen: It wasn't the totality of their entire person. It was just another thing about them. They might have blond hair and they might be a Republican. They might have brown hair, they might be a Democrat.

[00:17:18:14] Wilk Wilkinson: Right. And that's that's something that, you know, here's the thing about that particular line of thought is, you know, I want people having these conversations because I don't want it to get awkward when it does come up at the Thanksgiving table. Josh. But the reality is, is there are far too many people right now that have siloed themselves from people that don't think like them because they don't. Back to that line that we love. They don't know how to talk or how to disagree. Disagreeably you know, they don't know how to engage with curiosity over contempt when they know that this particular person has a belief that is a trigger for them. Talk about how Buckley navigated that, because I think it was awesome.

[00:18:07:07] Josh Cohen: Yeah, absolutely. But before I do, I throw one more quote at you from the book that you that you put up in my mind.

[00:18:14:12] Wilk Wilkinson: Please do.

[00:18:15:16] Josh Cohen: Yeah, yeah. You just you just raised the flag for me. So, one of my chapters covers his decades long friendship with the man named IRA Glasser. IRA Glasser was the head of the ACLU, American Civil Liberties Union. A by no means, by the way, conservative organization.

[00:18:33:21] Wilk Wilkinson: No, no, no.

[00:18:34:23] Josh Cohen: Not, But they were they were friends were a very long time. And Glasser has a quote on Buckley that I just love, and it talks about separating the person from the politics and kind of the way we're we're circling around here. So he says. I've known I've known many, many people in my decades of public life that were perfect on the abstract questions of of human life. You know, they they knew all the right things to say about social justice, human justice, cosmic justice. You know, you know what? I'm what I'm driving at. But they were terrible people. Privately, Buckley was the opposite. But Buckley was, you know, Buckley was a great person personally, but had the worst politics. And, you know, there's no way there's no reason to expect someone who was the head of the ACLU not to think that way about Buckley. I can I can live with that. Right? So, yeah, that was just just a quote. I had to I had to throw at a throw out at you. And I talked myself, which would not let me. Oh, no, I was just going to say I taught myself into a not. And now I can't remember your question.

[00:19:54:04] Wilk Wilkinson: Oh, no, no, no, that's fine. And and, come to think of it, I, I don't remember my question either, because, well, I think the reason that we, we started talking about that, Josh, is because I kind of asked, you know, how did. How did Buckley navigate that thing where when he knew that he was going to be having a discussion with somebody whose politics was nowhere close to his own? How did he still, how did he work through those things? You know, work across disagreement, in a non disagreeable way? And and engaged curiosity, you know, with curiosity over contempt. These are things that so many people have lost today. Again, because they've made their. And I would contend that it's because they've made their political identity part of their core identity. And just like you were just saying right there and pointing out is when they're talking about Buckley's, you know, when the when the head of the a, LC or ACLU is saying that, you know, I love Buckley as a person, but I can't stand his politics. People nowadays, Josh, look at somebody and say that person is their politics. And going back to what you said even earlier than that is now they've turned that person into a caricature based on that one thing or that that particular set of political ideologies or whatever it is now. That person is a character. They no longer see them as the person that they know or the person that they want to get to know. They have now reduced them to a caricature based on that one thing or a couple of things, and it turns them into a demon of some sort. Go ahead.

[00:21:40:19] Josh Cohen: Yeah, and they have they have thus become a fanatic. So yes, I, I may as well I may as well just, you know, open my throat and say, say the darn thing.

[00:21:52:16] Wilk Wilkinson: So.

[00:21:53:04] Josh Cohen: Sure. Yeah. Well, because I feel like it's a building block to a lot of the things that we're talking about, and I feel like it can give us something a little bit just to circle around here. Yeah. So one of my chapters is on a Harvard economist, very liberal Harvard economist named K Galbraith, John Kenneth Galbraith. And him and Buckley were the best of friends. I might argue his Galbraith was Buckley's best liberal friend for 40 years. Something preposterous. They'd go skiing and stod a you know, there's a whole well, it's all in the book. But, the value that I pull out there is a warning against fanaticism and. Yeah. What one, one line I have in the book that I just, I'm very proud of. Back in 1971, William Buckley Jr gave a speech in front of the. It was at the the judges conference, a luncheon conference of judges in New York, 1971. And the speech was called the Republic's duty to repress. Interesting title, I always thought. But he quotes the great SCOTUS judge Oliver Wendell Holmes. And as an aside, this is the man who famously coined the phrase, you know, shouting fire in a crowded theater. You know, we know the rest of it. Yeah, yeah.

[00:23:09:14] Wilk Wilkinson: Yep.

[00:23:10:03] Josh Cohen: Yeah, yeah. But, but Buckley quotes Holmes and saying, trying to disseminate between the normal thinker and the fanatic. We can all agree, just as a matter of common sense, that you and I own the space above our house. Right? We own. We own the space above our roof so that our neighbor wouldn't be able to construct a perpendicular object to extend over our roof. Right. Yes. However. Yep. However, the fanatical reason from our ownership of the space above our roof claims to ownership of a shaft of air that that goes shoot straight up from a roof right into the heavenly spheres, so that no plane may fly through it, and no child's kite may fly through it without express written consent from the owner. And you can easily see I see you not nodding along. You can easily see the ridiculousness of that. And I think that's just an excellent cut between the fanatic and and what I might call normal thinking. Right. Yes. Yeah. And and and just to finally get get around to it, I think, understanding that the person that you're talking with is, in fact, a fully fledged person you and I might disagree on, I don't know, the death penalty, since that's a common topic at the moment with certain certain trials going on. Yeah, it's been going around, but but nonetheless, you might still be that that terrible golfer that I love to, to take money from or or, you know, whatever it might be. Right. And, you know, there was another article sorry to drone on here. Wilk, but just another thing that hits my head as we're talking. You know, it used to be just as kind of a caricature. You would have maybe two guys, you know, playing video games, having pizza and beer, and they're just talking about, you know, hey, I, I think this about about abortion, let's say that, and the other guy say, well, I think this is about abortion. And they would they would go back and forth and constantly disagreeing with each other, and then they basically settle on something like, are you crazy, man? Anyway, new game. You want a beer?

[00:25:22:21] Wilk Wilkinson: Sure, sure.

[00:25:24:02] Josh Cohen: And and that's another cut in terms of someone who's not being a fanatic and is just being a normal thinker. I hope I didn't draw on two to much there for you. Wilk.

[00:25:36:09] Wilk Wilkinson: No, no, I think, but I think that's a fantastic point, Josh. And that that, you know, when people are having conversations now, they. You know, they, they, they have lost that ability to say, I can understand you. I can listen to you, I can I can acknowledge what you're saying without that having to mean agreement. Right. You know, and, you know, that's that point that you're making there, I think is incredibly, incredibly important. And people need to understand that that acknowledgment is not agreement. You know, trying listening to somebody with the intention to understand who they are and why they believe something is not the same as me saying, I'm sacrificing my principles now because I'm having this conversation with you. That is the totally different thing. And people have been led to believe by outrage entrepreneurs and grievance grifters. From here to the here to the South Pole, that that we have to we can no longer have conversations with people we disagree with. Because if I give this person the time of day, if I have a conversation with them without fighting what they are saying and without trying to change their mind, that's akin to saying that I'm in agreement with you, right? That's not the case at all. You know, we have to get back to the idea that, you know what, we're not going to all agree on anything, nor should we. But if we are going to build together across difference, which we call it braver angels, you know, courageous citizenship, if we are going to build together across difference, it's going to have to be in spite of our differences and sometimes because of our differences. But we don't have to seek a we don't have to seek agreement on everything. Just acknowledge the fact that some people are different, they have different life experiences, and they think different things for different reasons. And it doesn't make them a horrible human being. Just take that for a second. And then I want to talk a little bit as we round out our time about your your podcast Eyewitness History. Josh.

[00:27:51:18] Josh Cohen: Wonderful. Wilk, yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Well just to you mentioned the grievance grifters and and the outrage culture and and all this and you're spot on with everything you're saying. And I do have in the book a line I think I'm specifically discussing debate but just conversation. Discussion in general. In discussion you're either striving to understand or you're striving to misunderstand, right? And this is where this is where this. Yeah. And this is where, like the straw man come in. You know, if if you're if you're a Democrat and you say, well, I think we need higher taxation for whatever, whatever we need. And then I say to you, oh, so you want 100% taxation? No, I think I think you can tell that that's not what you said. I'm just I'm just I'm just delivering a stout straw man argument. Yeah.

[00:28:45:15] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. Right.

[00:28:46:05] Josh Cohen: Yeah, yeah. And I think in general, people are able to sniff out the understanders from the misunderstanders. Even if you try to understand me and you still don't, I can't appreciate the effort, the attitude and the energy, all of which shine through. and yeah, that sounds like a rounding out the the chat about the book. And, just just want to really, really thank you for letting me chat about it for a little bit. And if I may, if anyone that's interested, my publisher is called Fidelis Publishing. And they can go on to their, their online bookstore, and they can get there's a discount code there and they can get some a percentage off of the off of the price of the book.

[00:29:27:09] Wilk Wilkinson: That's super cool, man. And we appreciate that for sure. So just moving on in our last couple minutes here. Yeah. Josh, the the the the podcast that you've been doing, witness history, you've, you've had the opportunity to interview some, some pretty incredible people that have been eyewitness to, to different historical events and things like that. let's talk just real quick. Tell people, you know, what are they going to find with the Eyewitness History podcast. And then and then let's round out whether you just telling people where they can find out more about you.

[00:30:00:18] Josh Cohen: Yeah. So the Eyewitness History podcast is exactly what it sounds like. I interview people that were eyewitnesses to historical events, and this could be, events as serious as, World War two. I've interviewed several World War Two veterans, one of whom fought at the battle of the bulge. And I've interviewed several Holocaust survivors, which was, where I felt a real, a real, duty to history, because even five years from now, how many of these guys will still be around? Right. So for interviewing something like that. Yeah, I knew something like that, I think. All right, you know, get your questions on point, get your research on point. Don't mess this up. I don't think I have yet. Sure. But then but then I also interview a less less serious fair. So I interviewed the man who wrote Chris Farley's last comedy sketch, a Saturday Night Live writer. That's history. I interviewed Spike Edney, who is a member of Queen. Yep. Who's a member of Queen. He he played at Live Aid. I'll actually coming up here in the next couple of weeks, I'm doing final, final rounds of conversation to interview someone who was, I don't want to give you the name because it's not set in stone yet, but he's a member of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. He played at Woodstock. He's one of the best guitarists of all time, according to rolling Stone. Yep. Nice. Yeah. And so, you know, I've interviewed all manner of people. I can tell you, what I think one of my favorite interviews is and one of the best interviews I've ever done, just to give listeners a some direction that that you and I can point them at. Wilk, I had the honor of interviewing a man named Frank DeAngelis a few years ago. Frank DeAngelis was the principal of Columbine High School during during that. Yeah, yeah. During during the shooting and and certainly afterwards. And, not completely coincidentally, but he's also actually a devout Catholic. And his Catholic faith, got him through that. He he told me he told me that himself. And that's one of the best thing I've ever done. I say with with no ego whatsoever. You know, my my research, my questions. Wrong point. But he was amazing. He he gives me and the listener he puts puts us right there with him. He talks about how he sprinted toward the gunman, one of the gunmen. The name I, I sort of as just a point of morality. I don't I don't want to say their names during a podcast. Right. But.

[00:32:38:06] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. No, that's that's fine. Yeah.

[00:32:40:03] Josh Cohen: Right. Right. But but. Yeah. So, I just interviewed someone the other day. Who's a a very well known literary agent and writer. So people that are interested in literature and can can go to that, and, and. Yeah, and any man or person that you can imagine, I've interviewed from musicians to entertainers to, to writers to politicians, you name them, I've, I've probably spoken with them. So it's been an honor to do so. So yeah, that's, the Eyewitness History podcast. It's part of the Parthenon Podcast Network, and it's under the Salem Media Group, the well-known Salem Salem Media Group. Company.

[00:33:20:13] Wilk Wilkinson: Very good. that's that's fantastic. And people can find out more about you. if you want to throw out a website real quick, we can put that out there. And then we'll make sure that, the ways to contact you in the show notes.

[00:33:32:21] Josh Cohen: Yeah. As it happens, I need to put together my own writing website, so I, I should hopefully have one for you at some point. I do not have one at the moment, but you know what? You know what I will say. I'll even give you my email here on the air. Anyone that wants to reach out to me for any reason just to say hi or whatever. You can email me at Josh Walter cohen@gmail.com. Send me send me an email. And, I will in all likelihood respond. But, don't take it personally if I don't.

[00:34:07:22] Wilk Wilkinson: Very good. Well, we appreciate you here on the podcast, Josh. It's been a it's been a great conversation. And find out more about your book. find out more about the Eyewitness History podcast. Again, the book is William F Buckley Junior's Guide to Friendship in a Polarized ERA. the author. Josh Cohen. I'm grateful to have you in my circle, man. This is a this is very cool. And we will talk again.

[00:34:35:00] Josh Cohen: It was an honor, brother. I really appreciate you having me on. I. I know that you absolutely did not have to. So it means the world that you did. And, Yeah, let's, let's keep chatting. I look forward to to fostering a friendship with you. be well.

[00:34:48:15] Wilk Wilkinson: Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate The Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together. So please take a moment to visit Braver angels.org and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divide. This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friend, I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.