Send Wilk a text with your feedback!
Jeff Schoep’s name may once have been associated with America’s largest neo-Nazi group, but today, he’s known for something entirely different—helping people escape hate and reclaim their humanity.
In this deeply revealing conversation, Wilk welcomes Jeff back to the DTH podcast to discuss his new memoir, "American Nazi: From Hate to Humanity." The book isn’t just a retelling of his violent past—it’s a cautionary tale, a redemption story, and a call to action.
🟩 Jeff’s early attraction to Nazism and his rise to NSM leadership
🟩 The internal and external violence he experienced—including assassination attempts
🟩 How transformative relationships and personal reckoning changed his life
🟩 Why identity politics and fear can radicalize individuals across the spectrum
🟩 His mission to educate, rehabilitate, and offer a path out for others trapped in hate
Jeff's story is proof that no one is beyond redemption. His honesty and humility show us the transformative power of accountability and compassion.
🎯 Whether you're trying to understand the mechanics of radicalization or looking for hope in humanity, this episode delivers.
🛑 Don’t forget to grab a copy of Jeff’s book, "American Nazi: From Hate to Humanity," and visit JeffSchoep.com for more on his work.
👉 Join the conversation, share this episode, and help spread the message that change is possible.
🎧As Perceptions Shift, Realities Transform - DTH Episode 214 with Daryl Davis and Jeff Schoep
🎧Nazis at the Turning Point USA event: DTH Quickshot with Jeff Schoep
🎧Episode 70: Redemption for Radicals, Shifting the Paradigm
#JeffSchoep #AmericanNazi #Deradicalization #HateToHumanity #Radicalism #Extremism #IdentityPolitics #Memoir #Redemption #NeoNazi #FormerExtremist
What have you done today to make your life a better life? What have you done today to make the world a better place? The world is a better place if we are better people. That begins with each of us as individuals. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you’ve got. Make each and every day the day that you want it to be!
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I look forward to hearing from you!
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Wilk Wilkinson
Welcome back, my friends, to the Derate the Hate podcast. I am your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by FOG, and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. Each week I'm sharing stories from my path and using the power of conversation and collaboration with my many great guests.
00:00:43:17 - 00:01:07:23
Wilk Wilkinson
Together, we chart a course toward understanding, bridging divides and fostering a community where wisdom prevails over discord. Friends, it really is about bettering the world. One attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the hate. The only good thing about a bad attitude is we have the ability as individuals to change it.
00:01:08:01 - 00:01:31:03
Wilk Wilkinson
For me, it starts with gratitude and personal accountability. I am so incredibly grateful that you have taken the time to join me for another powerful episode. Please remember to subscribe and share the podcast with your network of friends. If you would like to support the show, check out the Support Us page on the Derate the Hate website. With that, my friends, let's get to it.
00:01:31:03 - 00:02:02:05
Wilk Wilkinson
My guest this week is no stranger to the Derate The Hate audience. Jeff Schoep, once the leader of the largest neo-Nazi organization in America, is now one of the world's most sought after voices in deradicalization and counter extremism. Jeff has joined me on this podcast before to talk about his transformation, but this conversation takes things even deeper. He's just released his powerful new memoir titled “American Nazi From Hate to Humanity”.
00:02:02:07 - 00:02:35:21
Wilk Wilkinson
The title alone is intentionally provocative and for good reason. In this episode, Jeff opens up about the personal journey that took him from a violent underworld of radical extremism to a path of redemption, healing and service. We dive into what initially drew him to Nazism, his rapid rise to leadership in the National Socialist movement, and the deeply painful experiences that started to crack the armor of hate he had built around himself.
00:02:35:21 - 00:03:12:15
Wilk Wilkinson
From surviving assassination attempts to forging unexpected relationships that helped change his worldview, Jeff's story is raw. It's real and necessary. But this isn't about Jeff's past. It's about a sobering look at how identity politics and unchecked fear can serve as gateways to radicalism, regardless of ideology. Jeff now uses his story to help others break free from extremist beliefs, and in doing so, he's making powerful strides in the fight against hate in all of its forms.
00:03:12:17 - 00:03:20:05
Wilk Wilkinson
Get ready friends. This conversation is about darkness, redemption, and the urgent need for understanding
00:03:20:05 - 00:03:24:02
Wilk Wilkinson
in an increasingly divided world. Here we go.
00:03:24:02 - 00:03:27:22
Wilk Wilkinson
Jeff Schoep, man. How are you, brother? It's,
00:03:27:22 - 00:03:31:16
Wilk Wilkinson
It's good to see you. Welcome back to the Derate The Hate podcast.
00:03:31:18 - 00:03:34:19
Jeff Schoep
Hey, thanks for having me on again, Wilk, It's an honor.
00:03:34:20 - 00:03:36:15
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah. It's always good to see you, my friend.
00:03:36:15 - 00:03:39:03
Wilk Wilkinson
We haven't done anything in a little while, and,
00:03:39:03 - 00:03:44:19
Wilk Wilkinson
And just so the listeners know, you've got a book that's coming out soon.
00:03:44:19 - 00:03:45:16
Wilk Wilkinson
I believe in,
00:03:45:16 - 00:03:53:15
Wilk Wilkinson
sometime in late June of this year. You'll have a, a new book coming out. And I wanted to bring you on to to highlight that book.
00:03:53:15 - 00:03:54:20
Wilk Wilkinson
it looks like an incredible,
00:03:54:20 - 00:03:57:12
Wilk Wilkinson
story, an account of of your life. From
00:03:57:12 - 00:03:59:05
Wilk Wilkinson
what I'm seeing. And,
00:03:59:05 - 00:04:00:09
Wilk Wilkinson
I just wanted to bring in,
00:04:00:09 - 00:04:03:10
Wilk Wilkinson
again here on the podcast to to,
00:04:03:10 - 00:04:06:07
Wilk Wilkinson
see what's been going on with you. Talk about the book.
00:04:06:09 - 00:04:11:02
Wilk Wilkinson
I know you've been doing an incredible amount of, traveling around, speaking,
00:04:11:02 - 00:04:13:09
Wilk Wilkinson
working with the Simon Wiesenthal Center.
00:04:13:09 - 00:04:14:17
Wilk Wilkinson
Things like that. So we'll,
00:04:14:17 - 00:04:16:13
Wilk Wilkinson
we'll get a handle on all that and,
00:04:16:13 - 00:04:20:02
Wilk Wilkinson
see what's going on. So thanks again, man. I appreciate you joining me today.
00:04:20:02 - 00:04:21:21
Jeff Schoep
So thank you.
00:04:21:23 - 00:04:24:19
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah. So all right, so Jeff, the,
00:04:24:19 - 00:04:32:21
Wilk Wilkinson
the book, the the book that's coming out and, anybody who's been listening to the podcast for a while,
00:04:32:21 - 00:04:37:21
Wilk Wilkinson
knows you already. You've, you've, you've guest hosted an episode for me. You've been a guest on the,
00:04:37:21 - 00:04:41:04
Wilk Wilkinson
on the podcast here 3 or 4 times. And,
00:04:41:04 - 00:04:43:02
Wilk Wilkinson
we've we've done a number of things together.
00:04:43:02 - 00:04:43:20
Wilk Wilkinson
So,
00:04:43:20 - 00:04:45:08
Wilk Wilkinson
just quick backstory,
00:04:45:08 - 00:04:47:18
Wilk Wilkinson
Jeff Schoep, former
00:04:47:18 - 00:04:48:18
Wilk Wilkinson
radical,
00:04:48:18 - 00:04:51:17
Wilk Wilkinson
American neo-Nazi, somebody who has,
00:04:51:17 - 00:04:53:08
Wilk Wilkinson
basically worked,
00:04:53:08 - 00:05:00:16
Wilk Wilkinson
through a lot of those past indiscretions and now has become one of the, most sought after,
00:05:00:16 - 00:05:02:08
Wilk Wilkinson
deradicalization,
00:05:02:08 - 00:05:09:08
Wilk Wilkinson
experts in the nation. Right. And now you've got a book coming out about it called American Nazi From Hate to Humanity,
00:05:09:08 - 00:05:11:14
Wilk Wilkinson
which is a fantastic,
00:05:11:14 - 00:05:14:01
Wilk Wilkinson
way to put it. Hate to humanity. And,
00:05:14:01 - 00:05:19:04
Wilk Wilkinson
and, Jeff, let's start by well, let's start with the title.
00:05:19:04 - 00:05:26:17
Wilk Wilkinson
Let's, let's start with the title and how you came up with that title and what people are going to find in this book.
00:05:26:19 - 00:05:28:12
Jeff Schoep
So, thank you again. And,
00:05:28:12 - 00:05:36:21
Jeff Schoep
so the title American Nazi From Hate to Humanity, I felt like using the, the N-word in the title was, was,
00:05:36:21 - 00:05:37:12
Jeff Schoep
marketing,
00:05:37:12 - 00:05:39:04
Jeff Schoep
idea basically because,
00:05:39:04 - 00:05:48:12
Jeff Schoep
that's one of those things where if you're walking by and you see that on the bookshelf, you see that out there, or you're thumbing through stuff online, you got to stop and look because it's ugly.
00:05:48:18 - 00:05:50:10
Jeff Schoep
It's hateful, it's ugly.
00:05:50:10 - 00:05:52:16
Jeff Schoep
Everybody knows what Nazi is. So,
00:05:52:16 - 00:05:53:23
Jeff Schoep
you look at that and then you see,
00:05:53:23 - 00:06:04:01
Jeff Schoep
from hate to humanity with American Nazi, you know, this this is. I got to see what this is. I need to pick this up and take a look at it. And basically what it is, is a memoir.
00:06:04:01 - 00:06:06:17
Jeff Schoep
I go through starting at the beginning.
00:06:06:17 - 00:06:08:15
Jeff Schoep
Well, it starts with a flash forward,
00:06:08:15 - 00:06:14:01
Jeff Schoep
and which is a pretty violent chapter of, of an experience that, took place and,
00:06:14:01 - 00:06:15:09
Jeff Schoep
dealing with somebody that had,
00:06:15:09 - 00:06:17:08
Jeff Schoep
tried to set me up to get murdered and,
00:06:17:08 - 00:06:19:16
Jeff Schoep
so that's, that's how the book starts out, and it's,
00:06:19:16 - 00:06:21:11
Jeff Schoep
pretty violent. And,
00:06:21:11 - 00:06:23:02
Jeff Schoep
you know, we just dive right into it.
00:06:23:02 - 00:06:23:14
Jeff Schoep
And then
00:06:23:14 - 00:06:26:12
Jeff Schoep
after the flash forward, we go,
00:06:26:12 - 00:06:31:10
Jeff Schoep
into it starts at the beginning and goes through my childhood and then into,
00:06:31:10 - 00:06:33:10
Jeff Schoep
some of the things that took place,
00:06:33:10 - 00:06:37:19
Jeff Schoep
the rise into leading the National Socialist movement and,
00:06:37:19 - 00:06:40:22
Jeff Schoep
my life involved in that, in that world. So,
00:06:40:22 - 00:06:42:02
Jeff Schoep
it's pretty violent.
00:06:42:02 - 00:06:42:21
Jeff Schoep
It's a pretty violent,
00:06:42:21 - 00:06:44:05
Jeff Schoep
book. And,
00:06:44:05 - 00:06:44:21
Jeff Schoep
a lot of,
00:06:44:21 - 00:06:50:07
Jeff Schoep
a lot of emotion. It took a lot of time to write it. I put a lot of time,
00:06:50:07 - 00:06:57:22
Jeff Schoep
years it took to write it, because originally, when I got it done, it was like 800 pages or something. 6 or 8
00:06:57:22 - 00:07:03:13
Jeff Schoep
pages. It was a family long, and I started shopping it around to different,
00:07:03:13 - 00:07:04:15
Jeff Schoep
book agents and,
00:07:04:15 - 00:07:05:23
Jeff Schoep
literary agents and,
00:07:05:23 - 00:07:09:03
Jeff Schoep
they were all like, this is double the length it should be.
00:07:09:05 - 00:07:11:21
Jeff Schoep
So it took another year to, to kind of,
00:07:11:21 - 00:07:13:14
Jeff Schoep
decide which chapters,
00:07:13:14 - 00:07:25:01
Jeff Schoep
were not really necessary which, which could be shortened up and then got it down to size and then started shopping it around again. And at that point and I started getting offers like crazy,
00:07:25:01 - 00:07:27:08
Jeff Schoep
people were interested in the story and, and,
00:07:27:08 - 00:07:30:01
Jeff Schoep
I found a publisher rather quickly that,
00:07:30:01 - 00:07:32:21
Jeff Schoep
took on the they took on the book and,
00:07:32:21 - 00:07:34:14
Jeff Schoep
they said, this is such an important story.
00:07:34:14 - 00:07:44:23
Jeff Schoep
We've got to rush it out because typically it takes a couple of years. Once you you get a book deal and it takes at least a year, maybe two years sometimes before it comes out. And,
00:07:44:23 - 00:07:53:16
Jeff Schoep
I had secured the publisher in January of this year, and the book is coming out June 24th. So they put a rush on it and it is,
00:07:53:16 - 00:07:55:00
Jeff Schoep
it's coming out.
00:07:55:06 - 00:07:57:12
Jeff Schoep
So it's pretty exciting.
00:07:57:14 - 00:07:59:11
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah. That's incredible man. And,
00:07:59:11 - 00:08:03:13
Wilk Wilkinson
yeah, I, I've got to agree with him. I mean, it it's an incredibly important story.
00:08:03:13 - 00:08:04:08
Wilk Wilkinson
You know, you and I have,
00:08:04:08 - 00:08:06:21
Wilk Wilkinson
had had so many conversations about,
00:08:06:21 - 00:08:09:15
Wilk Wilkinson
about your backstory and how,
00:08:09:15 - 00:08:14:06
Wilk Wilkinson
I guess the the fascination as a, as a young
00:08:14:06 - 00:08:18:05
Wilk Wilkinson
child and, and growing up, that fascination with the,
00:08:18:05 - 00:08:21:14
Wilk Wilkinson
the Nazis and the in the Third Reich and, and,
00:08:21:14 - 00:08:26:00
Wilk Wilkinson
and then just, just the, the ugliness that came along with it.
00:08:26:00 - 00:08:26:18
Wilk Wilkinson
But then,
00:08:26:18 - 00:08:35:05
Wilk Wilkinson
and then so, so remind me, Jeff, or remind me, remind the listeners. What? How old were you when,
00:08:35:05 - 00:08:42:07
Wilk Wilkinson
you first actually became affiliated with the National Socialist Movement? And then when,
00:08:42:07 - 00:08:47:16
Wilk Wilkinson
at what age did you actually take control as a leader of the,
00:08:47:16 - 00:08:49:11
Wilk Wilkinson
NSM?
00:08:49:13 - 00:08:54:23
Jeff Schoep
So, I mean, the fascination with Nazi ism started when I was in about fourth grade. My grandfather fought in the,
00:08:54:23 - 00:08:57:22
Jeff Schoep
Hitler's army during World War two. My great uncle Spot,
00:08:57:22 - 00:09:02:15
Jeff Schoep
my mother came over from Germany, and my grandparents did as well after the war. And,
00:09:02:15 - 00:09:10:09
Jeff Schoep
by the time I joined the movement at around 18 and within a couple of years, I was I was running the organization,
00:09:10:09 - 00:09:13:18
Jeff Schoep
by 20, 21, somewhere around that age.
00:09:13:18 - 00:09:14:14
Jeff Schoep
So,
00:09:14:14 - 00:09:18:01
Jeff Schoep
it was a rather quick rise up through the ranks and, and,
00:09:18:01 - 00:09:18:07
Jeff Schoep
so,
00:09:18:07 - 00:09:22:13
Jeff Schoep
detailing some of the things that took place during that time, everything from,
00:09:22:13 - 00:09:24:23
Jeff Schoep
law enforcement set ups and, and,
00:09:24:23 - 00:09:32:08
Jeff Schoep
infiltration to some of the internal violence in the group, some of the fighting in the streets with,
00:09:32:08 - 00:09:33:15
Jeff Schoep
antifa, and,
00:09:33:15 - 00:09:36:00
Jeff Schoep
things of that nature and, and it's really,
00:09:36:00 - 00:09:36:14
Jeff Schoep
I took,
00:09:36:14 - 00:09:41:00
Jeff Schoep
care to change names and everything like that, so nobody's being doxxed or anything.
00:09:41:00 - 00:09:53:00
Jeff Schoep
You know, there's a few public figures that are named in there, but, most the vast majority of the people, everything that that's named is I've changed names and things like that to protect people's privacy. So that was that was important to me,
00:09:53:00 - 00:09:59:21
Jeff Schoep
in, in telling the story. And it's not all just a retelling of old horrors and terrible things that happened.
00:10:00:02 - 00:10:02:05
Jeff Schoep
You know, there is a redemptive arc, as you know,
00:10:02:05 - 00:10:07:23
Jeff Schoep
I felt like that was really important to include, you know, not just tell how it was, but,
00:10:07:23 - 00:10:09:18
Jeff Schoep
how I got out and, and,
00:10:09:18 - 00:10:11:18
Jeff Schoep
and the change and, and heading towards,
00:10:11:18 - 00:10:14:22
Jeff Schoep
you know, the good work and things that I'm doing now as well.
00:10:15:00 - 00:10:18:09
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah. No. And I think that's hugely important. I mean,
00:10:18:09 - 00:10:20:19
Wilk Wilkinson
I mean, obviously there,
00:10:20:19 - 00:10:35:05
Wilk Wilkinson
you know, this this would this would definitely not be complete without knowing about the, the catalysts or the, the you know, I know it wasn't just one, but the, you know, obviously the most influential catalyst,
00:10:35:05 - 00:10:36:19
Wilk Wilkinson
for your transformation,
00:10:36:19 - 00:10:40:20
Wilk Wilkinson
was your, your now relationship with Daryl Davis and how that got started.
00:10:40:20 - 00:10:41:20
Wilk Wilkinson
And, and,
00:10:41:20 - 00:10:48:09
Wilk Wilkinson
if anybody wants to relive that, that episode where I had Daryl and you on talking about the,
00:10:48:09 - 00:10:50:02
Wilk Wilkinson
the meeting at the diner for,
00:10:50:02 - 00:10:51:16
Wilk Wilkinson
accidental courtesy,
00:10:51:16 - 00:10:55:14
Wilk Wilkinson
a that's an incredible episode. They can step back and and the,
00:10:55:14 - 00:10:59:03
Wilk Wilkinson
the link to that episode will obviously be in the show notes for this,
00:10:59:03 - 00:11:00:18
Wilk Wilkinson
this episode, but, yeah, just
00:11:00:18 - 00:11:02:07
Wilk Wilkinson
an incredible tale.
00:11:02:09 - 00:11:07:04
Wilk Wilkinson
Heartfelt tale and and how to two unlikely people,
00:11:07:04 - 00:11:11:21
Wilk Wilkinson
became such close friends. And you guys are like brothers now and and,
00:11:11:21 - 00:11:16:17
Wilk Wilkinson
yeah. Yeah. Daryl is an incredible figure. Let's talk a little bit about,
00:11:16:17 - 00:11:24:15
Wilk Wilkinson
you know, you said you go into, in the book, Jeff, you go into to some of the,
00:11:24:15 - 00:11:28:01
Wilk Wilkinson
the uglier tales, the ugly side of,
00:11:28:01 - 00:11:31:05
Wilk Wilkinson
of that, that radical lifestyle and,
00:11:31:05 - 00:11:33:00
Wilk Wilkinson
some of the infighting.
00:11:33:02 - 00:11:43:09
Wilk Wilkinson
I know you and I have talked a lot about the, the paranoia that came along with, with being in the movement and, and how that worked.
00:11:43:09 - 00:11:50:19
Wilk Wilkinson
And then and then this culminated in, in people actually trying to to set you up to be murdered.
00:11:50:19 - 00:11:54:16
Wilk Wilkinson
Let's let's unpack a few of those things a little bit more because,
00:11:54:16 - 00:11:57:02
Wilk Wilkinson
I mean, I think that's, that's going to be,
00:11:57:02 - 00:12:04:19
Wilk Wilkinson
important for people to understand that, that this is not any kind of a, a glamorous lifestyle.
00:12:04:19 - 00:12:12:02
Wilk Wilkinson
There's not a lot of smiles and, and happy times. This is all just a whole bunch of ugly. So let's
00:12:12:02 - 00:12:13:04
Wilk Wilkinson
unpack a, a little bit of,
00:12:13:04 - 00:12:15:11
Wilk Wilkinson
of that for me. Would you say?
00:12:15:13 - 00:12:16:02
Jeff Schoep
Yeah.
00:12:16:02 - 00:12:21:20
Jeff Schoep
I'm trying to think of where to even begin because there's so much. And there was, there was so much that I didn't include as well. But,
00:12:21:20 - 00:12:24:15
Jeff Schoep
one thing, that one thing that really stands out was,
00:12:24:15 - 00:12:26:16
Jeff Schoep
one of the assassination attempts.
00:12:26:16 - 00:12:30:06
Jeff Schoep
I say one of them, there's there was several, but,
00:12:30:06 - 00:12:31:12
Jeff Schoep
one in particular,
00:12:31:12 - 00:12:34:02
Jeff Schoep
where I was struck in the back of the head with a tire iron.
00:12:34:02 - 00:12:37:22
Jeff Schoep
And I still have the scars today from that. And that happened back in the 90s. But,
00:12:37:22 - 00:12:41:20
Jeff Schoep
it was someone that had infiltrated the organization. And,
00:12:41:20 - 00:12:43:08
Jeff Schoep
and I do tell this, this,
00:12:43:08 - 00:12:46:00
Jeff Schoep
story in the book, so I won't give it all away, but,
00:12:46:00 - 00:12:46:23
Jeff Schoep
it was,
00:12:46:23 - 00:12:51:07
Jeff Schoep
you know, they had come in and pretended to be involved in an organization.
00:12:51:10 - 00:12:54:10
Jeff Schoep
The one one individual did, and the other individual was,
00:12:54:10 - 00:13:01:02
Jeff Schoep
a guest, you know, somebody that had he had brought along for us to go pass out literature that that evening in,
00:13:01:02 - 00:13:03:17
Jeff Schoep
Rochester, Minnesota, actually. And,
00:13:03:17 - 00:13:05:10
Jeff Schoep
we had went down there and,
00:13:05:10 - 00:13:06:12
Jeff Schoep
come back and,
00:13:06:12 - 00:13:15:09
Jeff Schoep
and the guy struck me in the back of the head as I was bending down into the trunk of a vehicle, struck me in the back of the head with one of those four prong tire iron.
00:13:15:12 - 00:13:16:00
Jeff Schoep
And,
00:13:16:00 - 00:13:19:11
Jeff Schoep
as he hit me, you know, it was anti-Nazi or,
00:13:19:11 - 00:13:25:17
Jeff Schoep
anti. It was, anti-racist action back then. It was before Antifa. But,
00:13:25:17 - 00:13:42:01
Jeff Schoep
struck me in the back of the head and said, we're here. We're here to kill you. And lucky for me, I didn't get knocked out. And I just remember everything, like Flash White, you know, like, I didn't even know what happened because I was bending down into the trunk to reach a box of merchandise that we had brought along.
00:13:42:03 - 00:13:54:10
Jeff Schoep
And as I bent down, that's when he hit me and said, you know, anti-Nazi. We're here to anti-Nazi League or Antifa, whatever. He said, we're here to kill you. And,
00:13:54:10 - 00:13:56:13
Jeff Schoep
the guy that was with me, my roommate,
00:13:56:13 - 00:14:03:15
Jeff Schoep
he blocked a second hit, which I didn't find that out until afterwards, but he had blocked the second hit of the guy would have hit me again.
00:14:03:15 - 00:14:05:19
Jeff Schoep
I would have been dead for sure.
00:14:05:19 - 00:14:07:03
Jeff Schoep
It split my head open.
00:14:07:03 - 00:14:21:14
Jeff Schoep
I remember stumbling backwards after getting hit and putting my hand to the back of my head, and it felt like a wet sponge, like pressing into a wet sponge because my whole scalp was hanging down the back of my head. It was.
00:14:21:14 - 00:14:26:22
Jeff Schoep
It's you hear about people being scalped back in the, you know, old West days.
00:14:27:00 - 00:14:35:10
Jeff Schoep
I actually know what that feels like because my head, my skin off the back of my head was all hanging down and it was still open to call. It was it was,
00:14:35:10 - 00:14:37:02
Jeff Schoep
brutal. And,
00:14:37:02 - 00:14:38:03
Jeff Schoep
so that that,
00:14:38:03 - 00:14:40:21
Jeff Schoep
experiences in there along with,
00:14:40:21 - 00:14:46:22
Jeff Schoep
a number of other another, other incidents that took place like that. But that's, that's just, that's just one.
00:14:46:22 - 00:14:59:20
Jeff Schoep
That's why I say I don't even know where to start, because there's so many things like that that took place. And as you said, very well, there's there's nothing glamorous about being involved in this and the fact that I'm still alive today. I consider a miracle.
00:14:59:20 - 00:15:09:15
Jeff Schoep
So if there's young people out there that are looking at these groups thinking they're cool or they should be involved in it, the fact that I'm here today, I feel like it's a miracle in and of itself because,
00:15:09:15 - 00:15:11:04
Jeff Schoep
most people don't make it that long.
00:15:11:04 - 00:15:11:16
Jeff Schoep
And,
00:15:11:16 - 00:15:15:14
Jeff Schoep
after 27 years and especially being in the position that I was,
00:15:15:14 - 00:15:23:09
Jeff Schoep
a lot of this stuff, I even in my talks, you know, that I do I haven't brought this stuff up because I was waiting for the book to come out and to share some of these,
00:15:23:09 - 00:15:25:09
Jeff Schoep
memories and things like that, that,
00:15:25:09 - 00:15:27:04
Jeff Schoep
that took place over the years.
00:15:27:06 - 00:15:28:06
Jeff Schoep
00:15:28:08 - 00:15:28:15
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah., Yeah.
00:15:28:15 - 00:15:29:13
Wilk Wilkinson
it's.
00:15:29:15 - 00:15:30:08
Jeff Schoep
Just.
00:15:30:10 - 00:15:33:01
Wilk Wilkinson
When you when you live a life of hate,
00:15:33:01 - 00:15:36:03
Wilk Wilkinson
there. Well, there's nothing positive,
00:15:36:03 - 00:15:37:06
Wilk Wilkinson
that's, that's going to,
00:15:37:06 - 00:15:38:21
Wilk Wilkinson
come of that and,
00:15:38:21 - 00:15:41:15
Wilk Wilkinson
I see so many people today,
00:15:41:15 - 00:15:44:18
Wilk Wilkinson
that are just consumed by hate. Hate for
00:15:44:18 - 00:15:46:03
Wilk Wilkinson
people that they,
00:15:46:03 - 00:15:50:05
Wilk Wilkinson
Often people that they do not know, they don't know anything about.
00:15:50:05 - 00:15:54:04
Wilk Wilkinson
And, and I know our friend Daryl talks a lot about that. How ignorance,
00:15:54:04 - 00:16:03:00
Wilk Wilkinson
is, is one of the, the leading drivers of of fear. And and then that fear is what leads to the hate. You know, it's just that that that we don't know,
00:16:03:00 - 00:16:14:13
Wilk Wilkinson
is often a leading driver for that hate. So, so then, you know, as you were, as you were going through the several years, Jeff, of,
00:16:14:13 - 00:16:15:10
Wilk Wilkinson
leading this,
00:16:15:10 - 00:16:20:03
Wilk Wilkinson
you know, Nazi, American neo-Nazi organization.
00:16:20:05 - 00:16:24:00
Wilk Wilkinson
You know what? I guess what,
00:16:24:23 - 00:16:29:15
Wilk Wilkinson
kept you going in this? I mean, because,
00:16:29:15 - 00:16:31:19
Wilk Wilkinson
again, well, for me,
00:16:31:19 - 00:16:46:19
Wilk Wilkinson
I mean, the constant anger, the hate, the things like that, that stuff is exhausting. What was it the do you think that that drove you to keep going for so long in that organization?
00:16:46:21 - 00:16:47:23
Wilk Wilkinson
And then now
00:16:47:23 - 00:17:03:04
Wilk Wilkinson
being somebody who who is actively or one of the most active people working towards deradicalization, how do you use the,
00:17:03:04 - 00:17:10:19
Wilk Wilkinson
guess my question is, how do you use whatever that driving force was then
00:17:10:19 - 00:17:20:04
Wilk Wilkinson
as a tool to then do what you do now in the de-radicalization space? Does that make sense?
00:17:20:06 - 00:17:39:13
Jeff Schoep
Okay. So yeah, it's a basically it's a reverse osmosis process. So it's the same skill set that I used for the wrong things to bring people into that movement. I use now to help get people out. So it's like I was the venom, I was the poison. Now I'm the antidote.
00:17:39:13 - 00:17:43:07
Jeff Schoep
That's the way I see it. And it's just repurposing a mission, you know,
00:17:43:07 - 00:17:45:20
Jeff Schoep
how I stayed so long is,
00:17:45:20 - 00:17:49:06
Jeff Schoep
looking back, you know, I wish I wouldn't have.
00:17:49:06 - 00:18:10:16
Jeff Schoep
Obviously. You know, there's a lot of regret, guilt and shame, but what the driving force was is that I believed I was doing something honorable and noble, you know, and it was a having a purpose and that mission in life. So I came once I realized it was wrong, what I was doing and that it was, wasn't something that I should be a part over then anybody should be a part of.
00:18:10:16 - 00:18:13:11
Jeff Schoep
I felt like, you know, how can I fix this? And,
00:18:13:11 - 00:18:17:06
Jeff Schoep
you know, that led to the work that I'm, that I'm doing today. So,
00:18:17:06 - 00:18:21:02
Jeff Schoep
having that mission and purpose is just it's just been,
00:18:21:02 - 00:18:30:09
Jeff Schoep
reverse osmosis and now now doing good with that same skill set, because that's what I, what I thought about when I was leaving, it's like, well, what can I do to fix this?
00:18:30:12 - 00:18:47:15
Jeff Schoep
You know what, what is that? What could you possibly do to fix this? Because I put a lot of negativity and a lot of hate out into the world for a very long time, and brought a lot of people into that organization. You know, I took a very small organization and built it up into what was the largest organization of its kind in the country.
00:18:47:17 - 00:18:48:07
Jeff Schoep
So,
00:18:48:07 - 00:18:52:05
Jeff Schoep
you know, there's people that say, well, you know, you shouldn't be out there doing this work.
00:18:52:05 - 00:19:02:20
Jeff Schoep
If if you were involved in this stuff, you should be out as long as you, you were in. Well, you know, watch I wait till I'm 80 years old to do something. No, I can do something right now. And I have the skill set.
00:19:02:20 - 00:19:13:20
Jeff Schoep
I have the understanding and and because I lived out, that was my whole adult life until early 2019 when I left. So it's like, what do I know better than anything? That life.
00:19:13:20 - 00:19:17:02
Jeff Schoep
So how can I repurpose and how can I,
00:19:17:02 - 00:19:22:08
Jeff Schoep
fix things? And I've helped countless people get out of that life. And not just that, but,
00:19:22:08 - 00:19:23:09
Jeff Schoep
curiously,
00:19:23:09 - 00:19:38:07
Jeff Schoep
one thing that I learned before when I started doing this work is when I first started, I thought, you know, the far right, you know, the neo-Nazi ism and that sort of thing was unique, that it was I could just help people get out of that.
00:19:38:07 - 00:19:55:20
Jeff Schoep
But what I've learned is that the social structures of other groups, whether they're cults, whether it's far left, whether it's far right, religious extremism groups like Al-Qaeda, ISIS, things like that, and even to a lesser degree, gangs as well. It fit into this category. But cults,
00:19:55:20 - 00:20:03:08
Jeff Schoep
far left, far right. I can help people come out of all these things because the social structures of these movements are the same.
00:20:03:12 - 00:20:06:21
Jeff Schoep
All the ideologies are totally different, and they're all over the place.
00:20:06:21 - 00:20:07:06
Jeff Schoep
And
00:20:07:06 - 00:20:09:18
Jeff Schoep
but the social structures, the way people,
00:20:09:18 - 00:20:10:20
Jeff Schoep
hold on to,
00:20:10:20 - 00:20:21:04
Jeff Schoep
this, these belief systems and the way they entrap people in these groups and the way they hold them in these groups is very, very similar. And like I say, the gangs, there's a little bit of a different caveat there.
00:20:21:04 - 00:20:29:11
Jeff Schoep
And there's some there's some differences because sometimes they're motivated by criminality and things of that nature. But there's so many crossovers,
00:20:29:11 - 00:20:33:03
Jeff Schoep
we can help people get out of all of those different things and help people,
00:20:33:03 - 00:20:36:06
Jeff Schoep
you know, see things differently and have conversations and, and,
00:20:36:06 - 00:20:53:09
Jeff Schoep
change their lives, just like I did. If somebody that can go from that sort of extreme to being a neo-Nazi leader to being a peace builder through these processes, the processes that I learned from Daryl Davis and and others, I mean, we can do so much more with it.
00:20:53:09 - 00:20:56:09
Jeff Schoep
And that's what we're out here doing. And it's it's it's incredibly,
00:20:56:09 - 00:20:59:21
Jeff Schoep
it's a good feeling to be really, truly doing something noble.
00:20:59:21 - 00:21:05:22
Wilk Wilkinson
it's incredibly important. And then to use that life experience to use the real life,
00:21:05:22 - 00:21:26:03
Wilk Wilkinson
part of it, I mean, you're not talking about these things in theory, Jeff. These are things that you've lived and and again, you've got that skill set, right? You don't you don't you don't rise to the level that you were at in any organization, even if it's a hate organization, you don't rise to that level in an organization.
00:21:26:06 - 00:21:29:21
Wilk Wilkinson
And without a strong set of skills,
00:21:29:21 - 00:21:30:05
Wilk Wilkinson
that,
00:21:30:05 - 00:21:33:00
Wilk Wilkinson
make people gravitate to you.
00:21:33:00 - 00:21:41:02
Wilk Wilkinson
The idea that you've you've been able to turn that around and use those, those skills for good is one of the one of the coolest and greatest stories,
00:21:41:02 - 00:21:50:17
Wilk Wilkinson
that I've ever known. I use that as an example. And a lot of the talks that I give and, and people that I talk to, you know, I recently had a conversation, I want to take this,
00:21:50:17 - 00:21:52:20
Wilk Wilkinson
and then we'll, we'll bounce back to the book,
00:21:52:20 - 00:21:53:06
Wilk Wilkinson
you know,
00:21:53:06 - 00:21:56:03
Wilk Wilkinson
write it, you know, at the end of the conversation.
00:21:56:05 - 00:21:59:23
Wilk Wilkinson
But I want to I want to kind of tie in,
00:21:59:23 - 00:22:06:00
Wilk Wilkinson
this to, to a couple of things that are happening in real time right now.
00:22:06:00 - 00:22:09:02
Wilk Wilkinson
Because, again, we we live in times that are,
00:22:09:02 - 00:22:13:16
Wilk Wilkinson
are just, you know, definitely in certain circles, there's just
00:22:13:16 - 00:22:15:12
Wilk Wilkinson
way too much hate. And,
00:22:15:12 - 00:22:16:04
Wilk Wilkinson
a lot of,
00:22:16:04 - 00:22:22:21
Wilk Wilkinson
of, of ugly things that we're seeing in society today driven by hate.
00:22:22:23 - 00:22:30:11
Wilk Wilkinson
I recently had a conversation and I first want to get your, your, your thoughts on this and your ideas on this,
00:22:30:11 - 00:22:36:11
Wilk Wilkinson
because this is, this is something that that came up on the podcast recently.
00:22:36:11 - 00:22:38:00
Wilk Wilkinson
We were we were talking,
00:22:38:00 - 00:22:38:23
Wilk Wilkinson
with a young man,
00:22:38:23 - 00:22:44:03
Wilk Wilkinson
named Hunter ash. He he's part of what, what some people would call the dissident, right?
00:22:44:03 - 00:22:50:07
Wilk Wilkinson
The woke. Right. You know, we were talking about. Well, white identity politics,
00:22:50:07 - 00:22:51:17
Wilk Wilkinson
part of what I talked
00:22:51:17 - 00:22:53:20
Wilk Wilkinson
with him about, he was on with
00:22:53:20 - 00:22:54:17
Wilk Wilkinson
Julian Adorney
00:22:54:17 - 00:23:00:13
Wilk Wilkinson
on the podcast recently. And we were talking and I said anything that drives and us versus them,
00:23:00:13 - 00:23:13:08
Wilk Wilkinson
mentality, anything that that, you know, drives that wedge in and starts either starts or exacerbates that us us versus them mentality.
00:23:13:08 - 00:23:18:02
Wilk Wilkinson
I don't see as good, you know. And like I say, you can't fight hate with hate.
00:23:18:02 - 00:23:28:06
Wilk Wilkinson
You cannot fight identity politics, in my opinion, with identity politics. What are your thoughts on what what some people are now calling the the woke,
00:23:28:06 - 00:23:33:10
Wilk Wilkinson
the the woke, right. Or, you know, white identity politics and and
00:23:33:10 - 00:23:36:00
Wilk Wilkinson
the dissident right is is what they're calling it.
00:23:36:02 - 00:23:43:00
Wilk Wilkinson
I don't see it as a right wing thing, but that's, you know, that's just me. But what are your thoughts on that real quick?
00:23:43:02 - 00:23:51:18
Jeff Schoep
Well, I, I see this this having this, this identity stuff and this this wokeism I see it as a, as a form of extremism and, and,
00:23:51:18 - 00:24:01:10
Jeff Schoep
what we see is, is there's a, there's a technical term for called reciprocal radicalization. And it's like the answer one side pushes against the other. So if you have,
00:24:01:10 - 00:24:05:22
Jeff Schoep
you know, in the you, you we like to be in the middle somewhere or we can be right or left.
00:24:05:22 - 00:24:16:23
Jeff Schoep
That's fine. But when you start getting out on the extremes, that's where they start pulling more people away from the middle, out to these extremes. And, and they're making everything about identity. And I can tell you,
00:24:16:23 - 00:24:20:13
Jeff Schoep
a couple of times when I've had the experiences in, in the
00:24:20:13 - 00:24:22:17
Jeff Schoep
work that I do now, where I'm,
00:24:22:17 - 00:24:26:00
Jeff Schoep
crossing paths with people that are into the woke stuff.
00:24:26:00 - 00:24:43:03
Jeff Schoep
Honestly, you know, and I'm going to be very careful how I say this, but to me, it reminds me of the movement because they're like, you have to see my blackness or you have to see my whiteness or my brownness. And it's like, no, you know, I actually had somebody get upset with me when I had,
00:24:43:03 - 00:24:44:04
Jeff Schoep
given a speech somewhere.
00:24:44:04 - 00:24:51:05
Jeff Schoep
I won't say where, because this is only happened to me. I've given hundreds of speeches across the country, and it's only happened to me like, twice. But,
00:24:51:05 - 00:24:55:17
Jeff Schoep
I had was talking about Daryl Davis and our friendship, our brotherhood, and,
00:24:55:17 - 00:25:02:18
Jeff Schoep
I said in the talk specifically, I said, Daryl Davis is I don't see Daryl Davis as a black man.
00:25:02:22 - 00:25:05:00
Jeff Schoep
He's my brother. You know,
00:25:05:00 - 00:25:17:02
Jeff Schoep
of course we see race, you know, with ice, I, I'm not blind. I see that he's black. That's not the point. I said, I don't see him for his race. I see him as a brother. Right. And I was told,
00:25:17:02 - 00:25:21:05
Jeff Schoep
afterwards I was talking to some people and they were like, that was offensive.
00:25:21:07 - 00:25:39:20
Jeff Schoep
I said, explain, explain this to me. I like how you refer to Daryl was offensive. I said, I can tell you, I know Daryl wouldn't find that offensive because he's my brother. I don't see him as, color. That's not who he is. You know, that's not his defining characteristic in my book. You know,
00:25:39:20 - 00:25:41:22
Jeff Schoep
so explain this to me.
00:25:41:22 - 00:25:59:05
Jeff Schoep
And they were they were talking about it, and they were saying, you should see our blackness and you should see whiteness and all that. And I said, okay. I said, this is really sounded like the movement to me. And I said, I'm not saying that to be offensive, but it reminds me of the movement because everything was about white, this white, that white, white, white.
00:25:59:11 - 00:26:12:03
Jeff Schoep
And now I'm hearing it from the other side. So I'm asking, okay, let's let's just just so I can wrap my head around this and understand what you guys are saying. Tell me, I said if if you were
00:26:12:03 - 00:26:17:12
Jeff Schoep
talking to a friend and you were referring to me, would you refer to me as Jeff? Or would I be white?
00:26:17:12 - 00:26:32:12
Jeff Schoep
Jeff? Oh, you would be white. Jeff was the answer. And I said, boy, this really sounds like the movement to me. But, you know, thanks for taking the time to explain it, etc., etc. and I was polite about it and they were polite. Nobody was rude or nasty about it, but,
00:26:32:12 - 00:26:38:16
Jeff Schoep
it was really unsettling to me because it's like that is not our defining factor.
00:26:38:16 - 00:27:00:15
Jeff Schoep
And Daryl Davis has a great answer about how he tackles this stuff. He says, you know, there's nothing wrong with saying white pride, black pride or things like that. But typically when you're proud of something, it's an achievement. We were born this way, you know, we're born white, black, whatever. Like that's not a crowning achievement. You know, crowning achievement is you won the track race or, you know, you,
00:27:00:15 - 00:27:00:23
Jeff Schoep
that's right.
00:27:00:23 - 00:27:18:17
Jeff Schoep
You got a trophy in your football team or whatever, you know, or you learned to play guitar really well. Whatever it is, you know, whatever it is that you succeed in, those are your crowning achievements. You know, if you're crowning achievement is the color you were born like, that is not really, you know, you can be you can say white pride, black pride, whatever.
00:27:18:17 - 00:27:22:07
Jeff Schoep
It doesn't. It's not offensive. It doesn't bother me. But it's like,
00:27:22:07 - 00:27:25:21
Jeff Schoep
but that shouldn't be your crowning achievement. I always think of that conversation because
00:27:25:21 - 00:27:38:07
Jeff Schoep
Daryl has a great way of putting things that I love, that that example. But what we're seeing and what you're asking about, I see is reciprocal radicalization. So people are getting of this mindset where,
00:27:38:07 - 00:27:40:18
Jeff Schoep
it's all about their tribe and what that is.
00:27:40:18 - 00:28:01:09
Jeff Schoep
It's a way to divide people. Yeah. And that that dividing us on skin color and things like that. And who does that? The Nazis do that. So when I hear that, I call it garbage. When I hear that stuff, that's that's where my mind goes. It's like you can say you're on the left, you can call yourself woke, you can say whatever you want, but that's the same racism that I used to peddle.
00:28:01:15 - 00:28:05:22
Jeff Schoep
So, yeah, you know, could you why not just call it what it is?
00:28:06:00 - 00:28:12:10
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah. You can dress it up however you want to, but, but yeah, ultimately, at the end of the day,
00:28:12:10 - 00:28:15:09
Wilk Wilkinson
I, I don't think it, it's useful. I mean,
00:28:15:09 - 00:28:19:14
Wilk Wilkinson
I and I had it we had like I said, we had a great conversation.
00:28:19:14 - 00:28:22:18
Wilk Wilkinson
I think, you know, deep down in, in,
00:28:22:18 - 00:28:25:02
Wilk Wilkinson
and like I said, that former guest.
00:28:25:02 - 00:28:25:14
Wilk Wilkinson
So,
00:28:25:14 - 00:28:39:17
Wilk Wilkinson
I don't see him as a, as a as what I would consider a racist. And but but some of these people and he even admitted some of these, these folks on what are, what is termed as the dissident. Right,
00:28:39:17 - 00:28:41:15
Wilk Wilkinson
are driven by hatred
00:28:41:15 - 00:28:43:18
Wilk Wilkinson
and I just I don't think it's useful.
00:28:43:18 - 00:28:49:23
Wilk Wilkinson
I think anything even even with good intentions. I mean, I see plenty of people on the left,
00:28:49:23 - 00:29:04:00
Wilk Wilkinson
that use identity politics all day long. I don't think they necessarily are driven by hate, but that identity politics thing, no matter who's using it and no matter, you know, which,
00:29:04:00 - 00:29:08:02
Wilk Wilkinson
which immutable characteristic you're using as an identity factor.
00:29:08:04 - 00:29:21:21
Wilk Wilkinson
I think I think ultimately, Jeff, you and I can probably agree, anything that's driving that wedge that us versus them wedge driving people into their own tribes or their own silos or or whatever you want to call it,
00:29:21:21 - 00:29:25:04
Wilk Wilkinson
is not helpful, especially when it comes to,
00:29:25:04 - 00:29:27:05
Wilk Wilkinson
hate and radicalization.
00:29:27:05 - 00:29:27:19
Wilk Wilkinson
Because
00:29:27:19 - 00:29:30:12
Wilk Wilkinson
it just it's it's just it's not useful.
00:29:30:17 - 00:29:32:18
Wilk Wilkinson
And, and our human instincts take over
00:29:32:18 - 00:29:36:20
Wilk Wilkinson
and then we just started to hate the other side, Dana.
00:29:36:22 - 00:29:43:15
Jeff Schoep
And you're right. It's not a most of them would probably, you know, there's some that are driven by hate. And I experience that in the movement, too. But,
00:29:43:15 - 00:29:55:21
Jeff Schoep
there's a lot of people that will say no, it's not about hate. It's about loving your people and loving and loving who you are and that sort of thing. And I don't think the intentions of a lot of the people that engage in it are malicious from the get go.
00:29:55:21 - 00:30:00:19
Jeff Schoep
Now there is those types. But even when I was in the movement, my intentions weren't,
00:30:00:19 - 00:30:14:21
Jeff Schoep
to be hateful or to be malicious. It was. It was noble intentions, wrong intentions. But the the the mindset, the mindset was that I was doing something noble. And that's what a lot of the people involved in it do. So when I,
00:30:14:21 - 00:30:19:13
Jeff Schoep
you know, speak out about that kind of stuff, you know, I don't want to villainize the people.
00:30:19:19 - 00:30:20:07
Jeff Schoep
And,
00:30:20:07 - 00:30:20:12
Jeff Schoep
and
00:30:20:12 - 00:30:36:12
Jeff Schoep
that's why I say I want to be careful how I address it. Oh, for sure. At the same time, it's important to, to show people and demonstrate how that can be divisive and how that can lead to other things. And it can lead to, you know, fear, hate and so on.
00:30:36:12 - 00:30:40:00
Jeff Schoep
Especially when you start getting siloed like that or getting in those echo chambers.
00:30:40:00 - 00:30:47:19
Jeff Schoep
Now, you know, this is my tribe, and I don't want to see anybody outside of it or talk to anybody outside of it. And that's that's the those are the first steps,
00:30:47:19 - 00:30:56:02
Jeff Schoep
towards radicalization. So just because someone thinks that way, it doesn't mean they're going to become radicalized. But these are the steps that are heading in that direction.
00:30:56:02 - 00:30:56:16
Jeff Schoep
So,
00:30:56:16 - 00:30:59:15
Jeff Schoep
it's certainly something to be concerned about.
00:30:59:17 - 00:31:03:02
Wilk Wilkinson
No, that's absolutely right. No, I couldn't agree more.
00:31:03:02 - 00:31:04:12
Wilk Wilkinson
All right, Jeff, this,
00:31:04:12 - 00:31:05:13
Wilk Wilkinson
again, our time,
00:31:05:13 - 00:31:06:18
Wilk Wilkinson
as it always does,
00:31:06:18 - 00:31:11:15
Wilk Wilkinson
has flown by incredibly fast. So, so, so final note
00:31:11:15 - 00:31:14:06
Wilk Wilkinson
on the book that's coming out again.
00:31:14:06 - 00:31:16:08
Wilk Wilkinson
The book's ready for preorder.
00:31:16:08 - 00:31:17:17
Wilk Wilkinson
Jeff. To take us,
00:31:17:17 - 00:31:25:14
Wilk Wilkinson
take us home with, with a couple parting words. Last thing you want people to know about this book. American Nazi from hate to humanity.
00:31:25:15 - 00:31:27:09
Jeff Schoep
Well, we just put it up on,
00:31:27:09 - 00:31:28:16
Jeff Schoep
JeffSchoep.com
00:31:28:16 - 00:31:32:23
Jeff Schoep
You can get it directly from me. I can autograph it for for anybody or,
00:31:32:23 - 00:31:43:03
Jeff Schoep
write notes in there, whatever, whatever you guys like, so you can get it from JeffSchoep.com directly. Yeah, I'm happy to autograph it, personalize it for you. And,
00:31:43:03 - 00:31:43:18
Jeff Schoep
I think it's,
00:31:43:18 - 00:31:45:17
Jeff Schoep
everybody that's, that's,
00:31:45:17 - 00:31:49:21
Jeff Schoep
has read parts of the book or that has read the advance copy so far.
00:31:49:21 - 00:31:54:05
Jeff Schoep
I have, I have explained it in ways like riveting, compelling,
00:31:54:05 - 00:31:55:03
Jeff Schoep
raw.
00:31:55:03 - 00:31:56:23
Jeff Schoep
I'm getting a lot of these, these kind of,
00:31:56:23 - 00:32:02:19
Jeff Schoep
feedback. It's something that you're probably not going to be able to put down, and, and you're going to keep going in it, and it's,
00:32:02:19 - 00:32:07:12
Jeff Schoep
it's making, you know, I don't want to toot my own horn too much on it, but,
00:32:07:12 - 00:32:08:04
Jeff Schoep
check it out.
00:32:08:04 - 00:32:17:02
Jeff Schoep
We've got the first chapter up on on my website. You can read the first chapter, make up your own mind and see what you think. And if you like it, you know,
00:32:17:02 - 00:32:24:00
Jeff Schoep
it's available now for preorder, and it'll be out June 24th, and we'll rush those orders out to you right away. So,
00:32:24:00 - 00:32:24:23
Jeff Schoep
it's been an honor again.
00:32:24:23 - 00:32:26:17
Jeff Schoep
To be on the program Wilk, as always.
00:32:26:17 - 00:32:35:13
Jeff Schoep
Good catching up with you, brother. And I'm. I'm so inspired by the work you're doing with Braver Angels and the good things you're doing out there. And, of course, the show is awesome. So,
00:32:35:13 - 00:32:37:13
Jeff Schoep
thanks for having me on again.
00:32:37:15 - 00:32:39:13
Wilk Wilkinson
Absolutely, man. Anytime. You're,
00:32:39:13 - 00:32:49:18
Wilk Wilkinson
You're always welcome, brother. Take it easy, Jeff. Schoep. And, make sure you check out the show notes, because in the show notes, there will be links to our previous episodes. And,
00:32:49:18 - 00:32:50:19
Wilk Wilkinson
yeah, we'll,
00:32:50:19 - 00:32:52:15
Wilk Wilkinson
we'll see you again. Thank you. Jeff.
00:32:52:17 - 00:32:56:09
Jeff Schoep
Thanks.
00:32:56:09 - 00:33:15:13
Wilk Wilkinson
Friends. If there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. Share it with your friends, share it far and wide. And of course, if you haven't done so already, be sure to subscribe right from our website so you can get the Derate The Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week.
00:33:15:14 - 00:33:31:14
Wilk Wilkinson
So this is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything that you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make each and every day the day that you want it to be. If there is something that you would like to share with me, you can catch me on most social media platforms.
00:33:31:19 - 00:33:57:08
Wilk Wilkinson
Or you can email me directly. Wilk@WilksWorldcom. With that, my friends, I am going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
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