Send Wilk a text with your feedback!
🧠 Contempt is contagious—and deadly to democracy.
What’s truly tearing us apart isn’t disagreement—it’s contempt. In this thought-provoking conversation, I sit down once again with author, podcast host, and depolarization advocate Zachary Elwood, whose work continues to challenge the way we think about division in modern America. His newest book, How Contempt Destroys Democracy: An American Liberal’s Guide to Toxic Polarization, is one of the most honest and emotionally intelligent takes on how we got here—and how we can get out.
Zach shares powerful insights into how confirmation bias, emotional thinking, and our grievance culture feed political division. Wilk and Zach dive deep into why curiosity is a critical tool for unity, how media and social platforms fuel outrage, and why focusing on local community action can help us escape the national polarization trap.
✅ Confirmation bias and how it locks us into unproductive narratives
✅ Curiosity as an antidote to judgment and certainty
✅ The grievance mindset and how it stunts growth and understanding
✅ The internet’s role in amplifying outrage and dehumanization
✅ Why local engagement and real conversations matter more than ever
Zach brings not only deep research but real humility and care to the work of bridging divides. He doesn’t just talk about polarization—he models what healthy dialogue looks like.
✅ Why contempt, not disagreement, is one of our biggest societal threats
✅ How online behavior fuels tribal thinking
✅ The power of emotional intelligence and curiosity in bridging divides
✅ What you can do to depolarize conversations in your own life
If you're ready to understand the emotional roots of toxic polarization and what we can do about it, this is an episode you don’t want to miss.
📌 If you haven’t already, go back and listen to my first conversation with Zach
🔗 Previous Episode with Zachary Elwood: Check out our earlier conversation in Episode 170
📘 Learn more about Zach’s new book: www.american-anger.com
🎙️ Explore Zach’s podcast: People Who Read People
▶️ YouTube – People Who Read People Podcast
🔔 Be sure to Subscribe for weekly tools on conflict resolution & depolarization
What have you done today to make your life a better life? What have you done today to make the world a better place? The world is a better place if we are better people. That begins with each of us as individuals. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you’ve got. Make each and every day the day that you want it to be!
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I look forward to hearing from you!
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:43:15
Wilk Wilkinson
Welcome back, my friends, to the Derate the Hate podcast. I am your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage, calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by FOG, and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. Each week I'm sharing stories from my path and using the power of conversation and collaboration with my many great guests.
00:00:43:17 - 00:01:07:23
Wilk Wilkinson
Together, we chart a course toward understanding, bridging divides and fostering a community where wisdom prevails over discord. Friends, it really is about bettering the world. One attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can derate the hate. The only good thing about a bad attitude is we have the ability as individuals to change it.
00:01:08:01 - 00:01:30:21
Wilk Wilkinson
For me, it starts with gratitude and personal accountability. I am so incredibly grateful that you have taken the time to join me for another powerful episode. Please remember to subscribe and share the podcast with your network of friends. If you would like to support the show, check out the Support Us page on the Derate the Hate website. With that, my friends, let's get to it.
00:01:30:21 - 00:02:00:16
Wilk Wilkinson
You want to know what I think is quietly destroying our ability to live, work and thrive together as a country? Contempt. Not disagreement. Not even anger, necessarily, but that deep seated, corrosive contempt that many hold for those who see the world differently than they do. If you're here, you likely already know that we're not about outrage. We're about understanding.
00:02:00:18 - 00:02:19:23
Wilk Wilkinson
We're about bettering the world. One attitude at a time. Few people are doing more meaningful work to address the emotional and psychological roots of our toxic polarization than my friend and today's guest, Zachary Elwood. Zak is an author.
00:02:20:05 - 00:02:30:16
Wilk Wilkinson
deep thinker and the host of the podcast “People Who Read People”, where he explores the subtle dynamics of human behavior and communication.
00:02:30:18 - 00:02:58:12
Wilk Wilkinson
He's written for The Hill, Newsweek, and been featured in outlets like The New York Times and Washington Post for his groundbreaking research into political division and deceptive online behavior, among several reasons I've invited Zach here today is to highlight his book, “How Contempt Destroys Democracy: An American Liberals Guide to Toxic Polarization”. This is not just a book for liberals.
00:02:58:14 - 00:03:25:08
Wilk Wilkinson
It's a book for anyone who wants to break free from the echo chambers and the tribal thinking and the constant cycle of us versus them. In this episode, we unpack some of the major themes of Zach's book the danger of confirmation bias, the internet's role in amplifying emotional reactions, and how curiosity. Yes, curiosity is a powerful antidote to division.
00:03:25:10 - 00:03:50:16
Wilk Wilkinson
We'll also look at how grievance mindsets keep people stuck, and why local engagement and face to face dialog matters more now than ever. This conversation is full of insight, challenges, and practical wisdom for anyone who's tired of the noise and ready to be part of the solution. So friends, let's get to it. Here's my conversation with Zachary Ellwood.
00:03:50:18 - 00:03:52:13
Wilk Wilkinson
Here we go.
00:03:52:13 - 00:03:57:19
Wilk Wilkinson
Zachary Elwood. How are you, brother? It's so good to see you again. Welcome back to the Derate The Hate podcast.
00:03:57:21 - 00:04:00:00
Zach Elwood
Hey, Wilk, thanks for having me on again.
00:04:00:02 - 00:04:01:07
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah, man, I,
00:04:01:07 - 00:04:10:09
Wilk Wilkinson
I'm such a fan of of your work and our conversations, the things that that we've been able to talk about, the things that we work on, Zach, or,
00:04:10:09 - 00:04:18:08
Wilk Wilkinson
are, are so incredibly important, especially in the, the divided times that we find ourselves in.
00:04:18:08 - 00:04:19:18
Wilk Wilkinson
I know we made,
00:04:19:18 - 00:04:23:20
Wilk Wilkinson
man, we made a joke the other day, but it wasn't really a joke.
00:04:23:20 - 00:04:33:02
Wilk Wilkinson
And it's like, okay, being in the depolarization business, we're not going to run out of things to do any time soon, though I wish we would.
00:04:33:04 - 00:04:35:20
Zach Elwood
Right. Yeah, definitely. Job security.
00:04:35:22 - 00:04:38:16
Wilk Wilkinson
There is job security. And and,
00:04:38:16 - 00:05:08:18
Wilk Wilkinson
Zach, I one of the things that I have been thinking about so much lately is trying to figure out, how do we how do we connect with people and show them that, oh, just some of the simple things that they are doing are contributing to their own demise when it comes to their attitude about them when it comes to the US versus them.
00:05:08:20 - 00:05:22:10
Wilk Wilkinson
And, and so, one of the things that I've been thinking about is this, this how do we show people that when they are seeking information, you know, online or,
00:05:22:10 - 00:05:25:11
Wilk Wilkinson
or they're looking to get
00:05:25:11 - 00:05:26:00
Wilk Wilkinson
some
00:05:26:00 - 00:05:36:23
Wilk Wilkinson
get the skinny on a particular thing, right. They, they, they tend to just focus their efforts on what the other side did, what the other side said.
00:05:37:03 - 00:06:06:20
Wilk Wilkinson
How can I prove that I'm right? This confirmation bias thing, that that is such a problem. So let's start our conversation there Zach, because that is one of the big problems that I see out there today. If people are so stuck in their own certainty and then when they try to, I guess, find something that might con or conflict with their certainty, they're still only searching in the same pool of information that they became certain in.
00:06:06:20 - 00:06:07:12
Wilk Wilkinson
In the beginning.
00:06:07:14 - 00:06:08:08
Zach Elwood
Yeah, it's a tough,
00:06:08:08 - 00:06:09:23
Zach Elwood
you know, tough thing to,
00:06:09:23 - 00:06:22:04
Zach Elwood
try to solve. I mean, I, I kind of see it in two levels where it's like, you know, there's the complexity of a lot of events that happen. And seeing, you know, often people are jumping to,
00:06:22:04 - 00:06:32:12
Zach Elwood
simplistic team based perceptions of various things. Right? Then there's also just even if you're 100% sure you're right about something, right?
00:06:32:12 - 00:06:47:23
Zach Elwood
Which many of us are, there's also the element of like, well, you should try to understand why people think differently, right? So like there's kind of this and I like to kind of break it down by that because I think a lot of people will be like, But I'm right about XYZ, you know, my, my anger is justified.
00:06:47:23 - 00:07:06:08
Zach Elwood
And it's like, well, sure, even if you're even if you're 100% sure you're right. It's like there's still you still have to grapple with the fact that many people disagree. And, you know, theoretically, half the country in some instances. So you just have to be curious about these things, like whether it's curiosity about,
00:07:07:02 - 00:07:12:04
Zach Elwood
what the actual truth is and recognizing that we can be drawn into these simplistic,
00:07:12:04 - 00:07:19:02
Zach Elwood
framings of things which amplify polarization more, and it's just curiosity about what other people are thinking.
00:07:19:02 - 00:07:36:04
Zach Elwood
But as to your question about how we get people to to do those things, you know, that's that's really the yeah, the million dollar question because, I mean, it's just, you know, probably like you, I'm always kind of astounded at how quickly people will reach for team based interpretations of, you know, the latest thing that happens in the news.
00:07:36:04 - 00:08:00:12
Zach Elwood
It's like everyone's immediately jumping on it, being like, how can we interpret this so that they're the bad guys and we're, you know, we're the good guys or whatever it may be. It's a it's really just I mean, I think, you know, I'm sure we're on the same page. It's really just the heart of why conflict is so hard to resolve, because you have so many people jumping on those interpretations just as a reflexive thing, you know, and you know it always.
00:08:00:15 - 00:08:21:07
Zach Elwood
It continues to be surprising to me that people don't learn like, hey, I was wrong about this thing that I overreacted about. Maybe I should take my time and and not just reflexively jump on these things or it put it in the worst case framing. Next time, you know, but, you know, it's like it's kind of like my surprise at continually seeing people fall for fake videos online.
00:08:21:07 - 00:08:35:00
Zach Elwood
I'm like, how do you how do you keep falling for the fake videos? You've seen so many fake videos and the people will get outraged and they're like, oh, it was staged. And it's like, yeah, how many times do you have to watch fake videos online to realize we're surrounded by fake videos? You know,
00:08:35:00 - 00:08:37:03
Zach Elwood
but, you know, I think we're we're we're,
00:08:37:03 - 00:08:41:21
Zach Elwood
we're always we're always, like, falling for for things that just, you know, what?
00:08:41:21 - 00:08:44:21
Zach Elwood
What we do and putting things in the worst possible.
00:08:44:21 - 00:09:03:08
Zach Elwood
Framing and so on. But, yeah, I do like to include that, that element at two of, like, for people who are, you know, there's plenty of people watching or maybe, maybe watching who might think, hey, I'm but I'm right about, you know, x, y, z badness. It's like, well, still, you should still wonder what other people are seeing, right?
00:09:03:10 - 00:09:10:14
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah. And I think I think that's that's why the curiosity factor is so important. Right, Zach? Because,
00:09:10:14 - 00:09:36:13
Wilk Wilkinson
you know, even even now having done this work for as long as I've done it now and, and being kind of in this depolarization space for years, there is still some things that I, I feel absolutely certain on. And I still I still hearken back constantly to my, you know, Christian conservative roots, the kind of kind of where I went when I started paying attention to politics years ago.
00:09:36:15 - 00:10:11:18
Wilk Wilkinson
But my certainty does not I don't allow anymore. I don't allow my certainty to affect or hinder my curiosity as to how other people came to believe what they believed. You know, I, I am no longer afraid that if I listen to this person or I get into a conversation with this person who is clearly way far away from where I am on the political spectrum, that somehow they are going to taint my my beliefs about a particular thing.
00:10:11:20 - 00:10:22:14
Wilk Wilkinson
Even if I'm 100% certain about it, I'm still curious as to how they came to believe what they believe, because that helps me in my,
00:10:22:14 - 00:10:26:04
Wilk Wilkinson
let's say, let's say I'm 100% certain, but but
00:10:26:04 - 00:10:34:16
Wilk Wilkinson
if I want to know and people have heard me say this a lot, Zach is is I don't try to change people's minds anymore.
00:10:34:16 - 00:10:47:23
Wilk Wilkinson
I just try to open them in. But if I'm trying to open somebody's mind to a particular thing, you know, we talk about it and, you know, many of your friends, many of my friends have talked,
00:10:47:23 - 00:10:49:06
Wilk Wilkinson
about,
00:10:49:06 - 00:10:57:05
Wilk Wilkinson
the idea of Steele Manning and Strong Manning and things like that. Right. But but if I'm trying to,
00:10:57:05 - 00:11:02:02
Wilk Wilkinson
when I, when I think about, you know, certainty in my own certainty and why,
00:11:02:02 - 00:11:10:20
Wilk Wilkinson
why I would, why I would spend my time listening to, to somebody who has a completely different viewpoint than my own.
00:11:10:20 - 00:11:11:19
Wilk Wilkinson
A lot of times,
00:11:11:19 - 00:11:15:00
Wilk Wilkinson
again, going back to the idea, I'm not trying to change people's minds.
00:11:15:00 - 00:11:39:13
Wilk Wilkinson
I'm just trying to open people's minds. If I want to have a conversation about a particular thing with somebody and open their mind, I think I need to have a good grasp on not only why I believe what I believe, but why they may believe what they believe, or what their life experience is and how they have come to believe what they believe.
00:11:39:18 - 00:11:58:20
Wilk Wilkinson
I think all those things are incredibly important. You know, you made a very good point. It's a funny point. It's like, okay, how many times do people have to look at at these different fake videos online to realize that, that somebody is trying to dupe them? Right? I mean, it just I, you know, Amanda Ripley calls them out.
00:11:58:22 - 00:12:28:01
Wilk Wilkinson
Conflict entrepreneurs, I call them outrage entrepreneurs and grievance grifters, you know, capitalizing on that FOG model. And in this internet ecosystem that we live in, Zach, there's so many people that know how to capitalize on people's fears about how to outrage people and how to to capitalize on their grievance, whether they be real or perceived. You know, I'll never discount somebody's idea of of being aggrieved about a particular topic or whatever.
00:12:28:03 - 00:12:51:03
Wilk Wilkinson
But what I really want to know is, is how they came to believe what they believe about that particular thing and how it's benefiting them to to somehow remain in that aggrieved status instead of working on, you know, I talk a lot about how to become a part of the solution instead of a instead of a part of the problem.
00:12:51:04 - 00:13:05:23
Wilk Wilkinson
People get stuck in this grievance culture, this grievance mindset. And they, they, they it it affects their ability to operate. Right. It it jacks up their whole personal operating system. So so let's talk about that because,
00:13:05:23 - 00:13:14:01
Wilk Wilkinson
we know you and I for sure because of the work that we do know that there are plenty of people out there online trying to
00:13:14:01 - 00:13:18:12
Wilk Wilkinson
dupe people through that fog model fear, outrage and grievance.
00:13:18:14 - 00:13:21:02
Wilk Wilkinson
But but it's effective and
00:13:21:02 - 00:13:32:05
Wilk Wilkinson
how do we work through that Zach. Because again when people are looking online for the answers to what they perceive their problems to be, often they're
00:13:32:05 - 00:13:39:08
Wilk Wilkinson
digging in the wrong pool for the information. And there's people out there that are trying to capitalize on that. So let's talk a little bit about that.
00:13:39:10 - 00:13:40:10
Zach Elwood
Well, yeah. And B,
00:13:40:10 - 00:13:48:19
Zach Elwood
to clarify more, I wasn't I was I wasn't even referring to political stuff. I was just referring to like you'll see these videos on Instagram where it's just like somebody,
00:13:48:19 - 00:13:49:07
Zach Elwood
playing,
00:13:49:07 - 00:13:55:02
Zach Elwood
you know, playing a mean prank on somebody. But it's kind of clear to a lot of people like this is this was staged, you know?
00:13:55:02 - 00:14:10:03
Zach Elwood
But everyone's like, I can't believe that they did that to that person. It's like, well, yeah, they were in on it. They didn't actually do it. Anyone. That's why, you know, I'm just talking about that kind of thing where we're just surrounded by all these staged, humorous videos and, and it's kind of similar, like they're aimed at getting people, you know, engage.
00:14:10:03 - 00:14:10:20
Zach Elwood
They're aimed at,
00:14:10:20 - 00:14:14:03
Zach Elwood
you know, gaming the algorithm to, to get two clicks, right.
00:14:14:03 - 00:14:30:06
Wilk Wilkinson
Like like the ones on the airplanes. Right. I don't mean to interrupt, but how many times have you been on an airplane where that one aisle is, like six foot wide and they got enough room for a camera crew? And it just so happens that all of this happened right at the right time, the right lighting. All right, sound.
00:14:30:08 - 00:14:44:20
Zach Elwood
Well, you might you might like this. There was one political one that I wrote a I focused on for my podcast. I wrote an analysis of it because it was a, it was like 2021, I think there was a video of a,
00:14:44:20 - 00:14:48:13
Zach Elwood
a black jogger in a neighborhood, and he was,
00:14:48:13 - 00:14:52:19
Zach Elwood
you know, it seemed like he was getting abused by a woman in the neighborhood.
00:14:52:19 - 00:15:14:00
Zach Elwood
And it went viral and it got written about by, like, somebody big. I can't remember the. Yeah, the, the blogger's name, but everybody was, you know, everybody was outraged. But it struck me like I watched it. I was like, this is staged, like they know each other. It was very obvious to me because all that, that the video just didn't add up, like the way they were acting, you know, and then it came out like two days later.
00:15:14:00 - 00:15:23:00
Zach Elwood
Yeah, I was part of this other video that they got. The longer video of it, it was clear that was staged. Right. So that's just and that was a cause of a lot of, you know,
00:15:23:00 - 00:15:32:00
Zach Elwood
causes a contributing to, you know, the, the polarization and the anger and but that was a case where, you know, everybody's just primed to see what the,
00:15:32:00 - 00:15:38:01
Zach Elwood
expect to see and prime to arrive at the normal, like us versus them kind of narratives.
00:15:38:01 - 00:15:38:19
Zach Elwood
Right.
00:15:38:19 - 00:15:41:16
Zach Elwood
And that. Yeah, I just really wish people would slow down and be like, hey,
00:15:41:16 - 00:15:56:15
Zach Elwood
how many, how many fake and staged videos have you seen on online in your life? And maybe you maybe you should take it easy next time you you watch a random video that gets you emotional next time, right? And like, ask a few more questions and don't share it until you've figured out what's going on with it.
00:15:56:15 - 00:15:57:08
Zach Elwood
Right?
00:15:57:08 - 00:16:18:04
Zach Elwood
But yeah, as to your question of like, how do we get people to do that? Yeah. I mean, I just think the internet is I mean, I'm, I'm a big believer. I don't know about you, but I, I am a big believer that the internet is a big cause of, of our problems right now. I just think it's amplified emotion and the ability to spread emotions so easily and also create these kind of online tribes.
00:16:18:04 - 00:16:24:13
Zach Elwood
You know, we're we're less present in our real life communities and more present in these virtual, you know,
00:16:24:13 - 00:16:36:11
Zach Elwood
tribes, online and political tribes. So I do see. Yeah, yeah, I, I don't know about you, but I, I'm a big believer in that, that it was a big amplifier. Yeah. I don't know if I answered your question, but it's kind of rambling the.
00:16:36:13 - 00:16:41:10
Wilk Wilkinson
Way I think. I mean, I, I kind of derailed your your first answer with, with,
00:16:41:10 - 00:16:54:19
Wilk Wilkinson
you know, jumping in on the video thing, but no, I think you're absolutely right. Zach. Is is, well, anything, you know, when people listen to the podcast, they know that I talk about, you know, never allowing your emotions to dictate your actions.
00:16:54:19 - 00:17:05:15
Wilk Wilkinson
And, and and you're absolutely right, whether it be political or nonpolitical or a lot of these things aren't political, though. There are people that will find a way to make just about anything political.
00:17:05:17 - 00:17:06:18
Zach Elwood
But it is true.
00:17:06:20 - 00:17:15:01
Wilk Wilkinson
But yeah, so so there's there's all of these, yeah, outrage inducing videos out there.
00:17:15:01 - 00:17:22:07
Wilk Wilkinson
And I and I absolutely agree that that, the internet, like I said, whether, you know, I.
00:17:22:07 - 00:17:43:23
Wilk Wilkinson
Internet ecosystem is, is is almost in my, in my way of thinking a analogous to just an absolute dumpster fire. Right. And in and it is done horrible things for people's emotional intelligence and their ability to separate reality from,
00:17:43:23 - 00:17:50:18
Wilk Wilkinson
you know, fictitious nonsense that is meant to play upon people's emotions.
00:17:50:20 - 00:17:56:06
Wilk Wilkinson
Again, not only in the political realm, though I do believe that the media and politicians,
00:17:56:06 - 00:18:06:02
Wilk Wilkinson
understand this and try to capitalize on it, but but people will they will watch whether it be the video of the, the the,
00:18:06:02 - 00:18:08:23
Wilk Wilkinson
the jogger in in a neighborhood that,
00:18:08:23 - 00:18:10:21
Wilk Wilkinson
is being harassed by the,
00:18:10:21 - 00:18:11:12
Wilk Wilkinson
you know,
00:18:11:12 - 00:18:12:12
Wilk Wilkinson
whoever it was.
00:18:12:12 - 00:18:13:04
Wilk Wilkinson
Right?
00:18:13:04 - 00:18:14:02
Wilk Wilkinson
Or if it's,
00:18:14:02 - 00:18:18:17
Wilk Wilkinson
you know, you go back to the, the, the Jussie Smollett thing with the,
00:18:18:17 - 00:18:31:00
Wilk Wilkinson
you know, comes wandering out of an alleyway with a noose and, you know, claiming that a couple people beat him up, saying, this is MAGA country or or the group people goofing around on the on the airplane.
00:18:31:02 - 00:18:32:01
Wilk Wilkinson
Those are all,
00:18:32:01 - 00:18:34:06
Wilk Wilkinson
meant to,
00:18:34:06 - 00:18:43:15
Wilk Wilkinson
entice or grab on to some emotional string in your mind. And these are things that that never would have,
00:18:43:15 - 00:18:47:06
Wilk Wilkinson
never would have occurred to people back in the day.
00:18:47:06 - 00:18:51:07
Wilk Wilkinson
You know, you and I can you and I can remember,
00:18:51:07 - 00:18:54:21
Wilk Wilkinson
back in the, in the 90s before,
00:18:54:21 - 00:18:59:09
Wilk Wilkinson
before personal computers really became a thing, you know, let alone,
00:18:59:09 - 00:19:01:02
Wilk Wilkinson
let alone cell phones and smartphones.
00:19:01:02 - 00:19:03:03
Wilk Wilkinson
But but going back into
00:19:03:03 - 00:19:05:11
Wilk Wilkinson
the days before,
00:19:05:11 - 00:19:09:01
Wilk Wilkinson
the internet was a thing and personal computers were a thing,
00:19:09:01 - 00:19:17:04
Wilk Wilkinson
we didn't see stuff like that. And, and there wasn't some influencer standing up in the corner of a bar somewhere,
00:19:17:04 - 00:19:19:23
Wilk Wilkinson
enraging people with the idea of,
00:19:19:23 - 00:19:23:11
Wilk Wilkinson
of this guy jogging through a neighborhood or, you know, this, this.
00:19:23:11 - 00:19:34:17
Zach Elwood
Thing, you know? Yeah. It's not like the the Dave Chappelle skit about, if if the internet was in real life where people are trying to rile you up as you walk down the street or sell you things.
00:19:34:17 - 00:20:05:17
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah, yeah, it's it's, you know, I, I make the jokes act that I've spent more time on bar stools in my life than I did in classrooms. And, and I learned so much from society through personal, real personal interaction. Right. Interpersonal communication with with people and and learning about people's life experience and what got them to where they are or what their problems were and how they've dealt with them and, and things like that.
00:20:05:17 - 00:20:31:18
Wilk Wilkinson
But but now so often we find ourselves not actually talking to or speaking with the people who have common cause problems like we do. Right? If we have a problem, we jump on the internet and let's figure out how to solve this. And now all of a sudden, we find ourselves in some rabbit hole, in online toxicity that has nothing to do with what our original problem was.
00:20:32:00 - 00:20:38:23
Wilk Wilkinson
And we become riled up for whatever. Why?
00:20:39:01 - 00:20:43:22
Zach Elwood
Yeah. Well, I don't know how much if you think about this one a lot, but the thing I think about a lot,
00:20:43:22 - 00:21:01:13
Zach Elwood
is, you know, so often people are overreacting to the actions of what are just a few people or even a single person, right? It's like in a nation of 340 million people, there's often a reaction about the actions of one or a few people.
00:21:01:14 - 00:21:19:09
Zach Elwood
And it's like, you know, you see this on the left, on the right where somebody does something horrible and they're like, oh, figures. You know, a liberal or a Trump voter would do that, right? Like we just we're always filtering for these team based ways to slot events in a huge, complex country into our allotted,
00:21:19:09 - 00:21:20:18
Zach Elwood
you know, us versus them,
00:21:20:18 - 00:21:21:05
Zach Elwood
narratives.
00:21:21:06 - 00:21:24:04
Zach Elwood
I just see that so often, you know, I mean, I saw that with,
00:21:24:04 - 00:21:40:15
Zach Elwood
you know, somebody tries to to kill Trump, right? And like, that immediately gets flooded into, like, this represents all liberals, right? Or somebody, you know, some some Trump voter does something violent and that everybody associates with like that. This tells us everything about Trump voters.
00:21:40:15 - 00:21:56:01
Zach Elwood
Right. And I think this is kind of the that's kind of the core problem. I mean, the way we filter events in such a big country. And it's not to say, you know, this isn't taking away from we can have real concerns, obviously, too, about things we think are bad. Right. But I think,
00:21:56:01 - 00:22:02:09
Zach Elwood
I think so often, you know, we're, we're using these various things that that happen in a huge country to,
00:22:02:09 - 00:22:11:20
Zach Elwood
just bolster and add on to our, our preferred narratives and, and building our contempt, which makes us speak in insulting ways and makes them angry, etc., etc..
00:22:11:20 - 00:22:12:23
Zach Elwood
And so.
00:22:13:03 - 00:22:20:13
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah, no, I think that's a hugely important point. And it's something that I talk about. You know, one of the things that I've been so passionate about lately, Zach,
00:22:20:13 - 00:22:34:19
Wilk Wilkinson
is trying to help people understand that you cannot continue to focus on what the 24 hour news cycle and cable news media is, is talking about, because a lot of these things are not things in your neighborhood.
00:22:34:21 - 00:22:36:17
Wilk Wilkinson
A lot of these things,
00:22:36:17 - 00:22:38:17
Wilk Wilkinson
I'll bring up the border,
00:22:38:17 - 00:22:39:22
Wilk Wilkinson
as an example,
00:22:39:22 - 00:22:45:18
Wilk Wilkinson
in this and I think, I think the border, we do have a border crisis. I think,
00:22:45:18 - 00:22:59:08
Wilk Wilkinson
or had a, I think it's it's coming to a pretty, pretty abrupt end. But but the reality when I think about things like that, and I'll just use that as a small example, is,
00:22:59:08 - 00:23:11:01
Wilk Wilkinson
let's say the conservative media and the, the conservative talking heads will get up there and talk constantly about, you know, illegal aliens and how this is a a massive epidemic within our country.
00:23:11:01 - 00:23:49:17
Wilk Wilkinson
And, and there that, you know, there's all of this crime associated with illegal aliens and everything else. While the vast majority of towns, you know, downtowns, counties, municipalities, cities, maybe not cities, but throughout this country really don't have a problem with that thing, but people begin to internalize it as a problem in their neighborhood because they are constantly seeing exactly what's happening in that news cycle or, you know, talking about, you know, gang activity in the South Side of Chicago and pretending that that thing is happening in,
00:23:49:17 - 00:23:54:21
Wilk Wilkinson
the, you know, some, some small rural town in, in,
00:23:54:21 - 00:23:55:20
Wilk Wilkinson
southern Illinois.
00:23:55:20 - 00:24:06:21
Wilk Wilkinson
It's just not a reality. Right. But but we begin to internalize these things. One of the one of the things that that I think about when I,
00:24:06:21 - 00:24:12:21
Wilk Wilkinson
one of the greatest examples that I think about in this and the tragedy that that comes,
00:24:12:21 - 00:24:15:21
Wilk Wilkinson
you know, comes to is,
00:24:15:21 - 00:24:18:17
Wilk Wilkinson
I had a conversation a while back with an author,
00:24:18:17 - 00:24:20:14
Wilk Wilkinson
journalist named Bonnie Kristian.
00:24:20:14 - 00:24:25:20
Wilk Wilkinson
She wrote a book called Untrustworthy. And she talks in that book about,
00:24:25:20 - 00:24:27:14
Wilk Wilkinson
somebody who,
00:24:27:14 - 00:24:48:14
Wilk Wilkinson
had, I don't know if it was a friend of hers or an acquaintance of hers or whatever, but they were getting ready to retire, and they had this, this nice nest egg, and they were going to buy, like a duplex in the suburbs and, and rent out half of it for passive income and, and had this, you know, just this beautiful plan, for retirement.
00:24:48:16 - 00:24:52:22
Wilk Wilkinson
But then because of politics and because of the ugliness that,
00:24:52:22 - 00:25:12:23
Wilk Wilkinson
that, that this whole polarization thing created did in their brain and their perceived grievance over so many things, they said, well, no, I'm not going to to allow myself to be tied down to some city, because when this city becomes a food desert and the crime and the criminals take over and everything else, I don't want all my.
00:25:13:01 - 00:25:53:11
Wilk Wilkinson
So they, they, they sold off everything they had bought a camper and started to travel, that kind of thing. Zach is, is, you know, kind of what we're on that kind of very similar to what we're talking about here. And one of the great tragedies of these, these us versus them narratives, these for, you know, taking the the national topic and starting to internalize them and personalize them and make everything that's happening in the national news media and trying to take it and say it's happening in our backyard.
00:25:53:12 - 00:26:34:14
Wilk Wilkinson
This is why I talked so much about the idea of, you know, citizen led solutions to common cause problems close to home. How can we use the concept of subsidiarity to work on things with our neighbors, common cause problems and tune out some of that national toxicity and some of those things, whether it be political or just the ugliness that we've been talking about today, Zach, the ugliness that we see online, quit pretending that that stuff is real life and start focusing on real life and what's happening in our neighborhood and with our neighbors and having those conversations.
00:26:34:16 - 00:26:35:23
Wilk Wilkinson
Let's talk about that.
00:26:36:01 - 00:26:38:04
Zach Elwood
Yeah. No, I mean, that's, you know,
00:26:38:04 - 00:26:50:20
Zach Elwood
there's a lot of things I didn't like about as was as our clients book, why we're polarized. And in fact, I the things I didn't like about it were the reasons I, I worked on my own book because I found it quite biased and actually a conflict,
00:26:50:20 - 00:26:52:20
Zach Elwood
polarization amplifier. But that's another story.
00:26:52:20 - 00:26:55:16
Zach Elwood
But I did like at the end of,
00:26:55:16 - 00:27:08:23
Zach Elwood
Ezra Klein book when he talked about, you know, ideas for what we could do. He talked about precisely that, like, let's stop focusing on these things we can't change at a national level. Like we have very little influence. Why don't we spend all of our time thinking about these things?
00:27:08:23 - 00:27:31:14
Zach Elwood
You know, like if you're upset about Trump, if you're upset about Biden, whatever. In fact, is we just have very little influence on these national federal things like we can, you know, so I think really, when it comes down to it, like something I've said a lot is like, you know, if you're spending a lot of your time getting riled up about these things and upset about them, you know, you can still think they're bad or harmful or whatever, have your opinions.
00:27:31:14 - 00:27:49:11
Zach Elwood
But the question is like, what are you doing about that? Like, if you're not doing anything constructive about it and just worrying about it, you know, is, is that a good use of your time? And would it be better to focus on things around you, things that are actually in your community? And he he went out. He had a good section about that.
00:27:49:12 - 00:28:11:05
Zach Elwood
And I think, you know, I do agree. I mean, I think a lot of people would diagnose the problem as like we pay too much attention to these national things, that that's because that's where the, you know, the Republican, Democrat gang of war plays out. Right. And that we see so we've just kind of the news media and everything is like us paying so much attention to those things.
00:28:11:07 - 00:28:29:07
Zach Elwood
And especially as our divides grow, that becomes the focal point which makes it let's focus on it more. So it has a compounding effect. So yeah, I do I'm I'm with you. I think more people need to focus on their community. And that doesn't take away with, you know, people being passionate or upset about what's going on at the federal level or whatever.
00:28:29:07 - 00:28:30:07
Zach Elwood
It's it's just,
00:28:30:07 - 00:28:51:15
Zach Elwood
a factor or a, a question of, yeah, what you're doing with your time. And if you're, you know, if you're if you're venting online a lot and just venting your anger, you're theoretically making the problem worse because then you're just, like, angering more people who it creates more pushback amongst people you disagree with. So it kind of just is a matter of thinking about what you're how you're spending your time is is a big part of it.
00:28:51:15 - 00:28:52:07
Zach Elwood
Yeah.
00:28:52:09 - 00:28:54:01
Wilk Wilkinson
No, it's absolutely right. I mean,
00:28:54:01 - 00:29:06:04
Wilk Wilkinson
what are our high value targets? What can we actually how can we actually, as individuals affect change that's going to have tangible results in our own lives? I think that's hugely important.
00:29:06:04 - 00:29:20:08
Wilk Wilkinson
And it's not that it's not that I would tell anybody to completely ignore what's happened nationally. You know, it's certainly educate yourself in the in the ways of civics and civic engagement and, and what it means to be a citizen and things like that.
00:29:20:08 - 00:29:27:00
Wilk Wilkinson
But but then take that, you know, you know, what was that old phrase, right. Think globally and act locally.
00:29:27:00 - 00:29:29:05
Wilk Wilkinson
You know, I think that's an important thing,
00:29:29:05 - 00:29:42:05
Wilk Wilkinson
that we, we realize, you know, how can we actually affect change? Where is our time best spent? Where is our energy best spent? So speaking of time and energy and and the books that that you've written,
00:29:42:05 - 00:29:44:12
Wilk Wilkinson
Zach, let's talk about your books.
00:29:44:17 - 00:30:09:06
Wilk Wilkinson
Real quick as we come to the end of our time here, because you get two incredible books Diffusing American Anger and How Contempt Destroys Democracy, kind of geared towards, you know, similar but different audiences. But but let's talk about those because I think both are incredibly important, especially for, obviously for for what we do as we fight.
00:30:09:08 - 00:30:18:23
Wilk Wilkinson
You know, this, this toxic polarization that has invaded so many people's lives. How, how or what can people find in these books? And,
00:30:18:23 - 00:30:21:12
Wilk Wilkinson
and where can they get Ahold of them?
00:30:21:14 - 00:30:22:02
Zach Elwood
Yeah. If you,
00:30:22:02 - 00:30:23:11
Zach Elwood
Well, thanks for the kind words. And,
00:30:23:11 - 00:30:26:04
Zach Elwood
Yeah, I mean, I just self-published those and, you know,
00:30:26:04 - 00:30:31:06
Zach Elwood
they haven't got out there too much. It's hard to hard to get, you know, these days, it's hard to get a book,
00:30:31:06 - 00:30:38:10
Zach Elwood
get much attention unless you get a a good publicity thing behind it. But, I did want to get them out there without a, you know, without an agent, without a publisher.
00:30:38:12 - 00:30:52:01
Zach Elwood
So they're out there. I mean, one of them's just an e-book. The first one's just an e-book. But I wrote the How Contempt Destroys Democracy, which was for a liberal, you know, anti-Trump audience. So I was purposely using the democracy angle to draw people in,
00:30:52:01 - 00:31:04:08
Zach Elwood
yeah. I think what's in those books that I think is different? What I try to do is overcome the common objections people have, you know, because I really lead with the objections people have to to caring about this, you know, the the common objections.
00:31:04:08 - 00:31:24:07
Zach Elwood
I'm sure you've heard a lot where it's like, well, the other side is so bad, you know, what do you want us to reduce our contempt or anger? You know, we need our anger, our contempt, maybe to defeat the bad guys. We need to get more polarized even, you know, so some of these kind of common objections that think that, you know, this work is at odds with political passion or at odds with,
00:31:24:07 - 00:31:26:00
Zach Elwood
political activism and such.
00:31:26:02 - 00:31:45:22
Zach Elwood
So I really try to overcome those objections to try to, like, build the movement, basically to try to get more people on the bandwagon of like thinking, hey, we can think what we want to think, but work on this problem and see it as like the biggest problem around. Right? So that was my goal was to draw a big tent of people into the to movement and see how they could approach this work.
00:31:46:00 - 00:31:47:01
Zach Elwood
And I think I did a good job
00:31:47:01 - 00:31:52:08
Zach Elwood
on it. Got some good reviews, including front from some polarization researchers and,
00:31:52:08 - 00:31:54:16
Zach Elwood
some, some political thinkers.
00:31:54:16 - 00:32:03:23
Zach Elwood
But yeah, that was my I think that was what I did a little differently because I really think, you know, this work to get more people into it. You really got to overcome a lot of the objections that are around us.
00:32:03:23 - 00:32:19:00
Zach Elwood
You know, that that it's just a common conflict resolution. Then when people are in conflict, the, you know, trying to get them to want to want to even resolve the conflict is the hardest part sometimes because they don't, you know, there's just not a not a desire to do that for various reasons. So,
00:32:19:00 - 00:32:21:23
Zach Elwood
yeah, I, I thought I did a good job on that.
00:32:21:23 - 00:32:23:15
Zach Elwood
And if honestly, I will say to,
00:32:23:15 - 00:32:34:19
Zach Elwood
well, you know, if you see a path to getting those out there, I honestly give away a lot of free books. If you if you, if anybody saw a path because I honestly, they're, you know, they don't sell very well.
00:32:34:19 - 00:32:36:01
Zach Elwood
Polarization is not the hottest,
00:32:36:01 - 00:32:37:02
Zach Elwood
topic out there.
00:32:37:02 - 00:32:42:03
Zach Elwood
But if anybody listening sees a path to just, like, giving away a bunch of my books to people,
00:32:42:03 - 00:32:44:18
Zach Elwood
I'm totally up for it, so. Yeah.
00:32:44:20 - 00:32:47:21
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah. No. And and I think,
00:32:47:21 - 00:32:51:05
Wilk Wilkinson
well, it obviously, I mean, there's going to be a link,
00:32:51:05 - 00:32:52:10
Wilk Wilkinson
you know, for people,
00:32:52:10 - 00:33:01:17
Wilk Wilkinson
and in the show notes for this episode on how they can get it and, you know, the, it's it's a great book. I mean, how it contempt,
00:33:01:17 - 00:33:03:19
Wilk Wilkinson
destroys a democracy.
00:33:03:19 - 00:33:07:22
Wilk Wilkinson
I'm, I'm certainly not one that that falls in the,
00:33:07:22 - 00:33:13:06
Wilk Wilkinson
you know, liberal Trump hater class, obviously.
00:33:13:08 - 00:33:33:19
Wilk Wilkinson
Not the biggest fan of how he conducts himself in certain respects, but but the reality is, is, like I said, I'm not out here to to to change minds. I'm here to open minds and, and books like this and do that. And I think the whole just the whole concept of the title alone. Zach, how content destroys democracy is a huge thing.
00:33:33:19 - 00:33:37:11
Wilk Wilkinson
You know, I had another conversation recently with a friend of mine,
00:33:37:11 - 00:33:38:19
Wilk Wilkinson
Eli Steel,
00:33:38:19 - 00:33:40:05
Wilk Wilkinson
and he talks about,
00:33:40:05 - 00:33:41:06
Wilk Wilkinson
how,
00:33:41:06 - 00:33:44:00
Wilk Wilkinson
you know, do you want revenge or do you want a better,
00:33:44:00 - 00:33:54:14
Wilk Wilkinson
you know, a better future for our country? Right? And because the two are very different things and you can't have, you know, you can't seek revenge and expect to to come out
00:33:54:14 - 00:33:56:23
Wilk Wilkinson
with a strong democracy afterwards.
00:33:57:01 - 00:34:09:06
Wilk Wilkinson
This constant battle of contempt and contentiousness between sides and the US versus them, you know, gets us nowhere positive. So, so whether,
00:34:09:06 - 00:34:12:19
Wilk Wilkinson
you know, whether you're a Trump hating liberal,
00:34:12:19 - 00:34:19:18
Wilk Wilkinson
or a liberal hating conservative or, or a just a, a just a massive,
00:34:19:18 - 00:34:25:12
Wilk Wilkinson
MAGA enthusiast, whatever. But the biggest thing that I want to do, you said,
00:34:25:12 - 00:34:31:17
Wilk Wilkinson
polarization and and depolarization is not the hottest topic out there.
00:34:31:19 - 00:34:51:09
Wilk Wilkinson
I want to do everything I can to make it at least a point on the on everybody's radar that that contempt and contentiousness is not going to get us to a better and more positive place. And the work that you're doing. Zach. Incredible work.
00:34:51:09 - 00:34:54:21
Wilk Wilkinson
The books Diffusing American Anger How Contempt destroys,
00:34:54:21 - 00:34:56:03
Wilk Wilkinson
democracy.
00:34:56:03 - 00:34:58:02
Wilk Wilkinson
The website is American.
00:34:58:04 - 00:35:04:16
Wilk Wilkinson
What is it? American-anger.com. Everybody can find those links in here. Check out Zach Elwood,
00:35:04:16 - 00:35:05:12
Wilk Wilkinson
everywhere.
00:35:05:12 - 00:35:11:11
Wilk Wilkinson
I mean, you can find him in a lot of places. Definitely content that is is more than worth,
00:35:11:11 - 00:35:13:12
Wilk Wilkinson
following keeping up on,
00:35:13:12 - 00:35:18:03
Wilk Wilkinson
Zach Elwood. Another incredible conversation here on Derate The Hate.
00:35:18:03 - 00:35:21:02
Wilk Wilkinson
Some final words for the Derate The Hate listeners that,
00:35:21:02 - 00:35:21:19
Wilk Wilkinson
that you want to share.
00:35:21:19 - 00:35:23:05
Wilk Wilkinson
And we'll wrap this one up.
00:35:23:07 - 00:35:26:14
Zach Elwood
Yeah. No, I just want to say thanks again, Wilk, for having me on. And,
00:35:26:14 - 00:35:27:20
Zach Elwood
Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for the,
00:35:27:20 - 00:35:30:10
Zach Elwood
collaboration and and outreach and,
00:35:30:10 - 00:35:34:12
Zach Elwood
friendship. Yeah. Good. Thanks for your work, too. Yeah, obviously.
00:35:34:14 - 00:35:39:09
Wilk Wilkinson
Greatly appreciate it, man. And I appreciate you, Zach Elwood. Thank you so much. And,
00:35:39:09 - 00:35:40:11
Wilk Wilkinson
we will definitely do it again.
00:35:41:15 - 00:36:00:19
Wilk Wilkinson
Friends. If there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. Share it with your friends, share it far and wide. And of course, if you haven't done so already, be sure to subscribe right from our website so you can get the Derate The Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week.
00:36:00:20 - 00:36:16:20
Wilk Wilkinson
So this is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there, be kind to one another, be grateful for everything that you've got, and remember, it's up to you to make each and every day the day that you want it to be. If there is something that you would like to share with me, you can catch me on most social media platforms.
00:36:17:01 - 00:36:42:14
Wilk Wilkinson
Or you can email me directly. Wilk@WilksWorld.com. With that, my friends, I am going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
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