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Derate The Hate Podcast – Episode 284 with Daniel Darling
✅ Guest: Daniel Darling – author of In Defense of Christian Patriotism
✅ Topics: Faith, Patriotism, Religious Pluralism, American Identity
As America approaches its 250th anniversary, questions about faith, freedom, and national identity are front and center. In this powerful episode, Wilk Wilkinson welcomes back Daniel Darling to unpack the themes of his newest book.
Christian patriotism ≠ Christian nationalism. Loving God first allows us to love our country rightly.
Forced religion is not genuine. History shows state churches harm both church and state.
Pluralism is strength. America flourishes when people of all faiths contribute openly to the public square.
Patriotism is love, not cynicism. Our best heroes worked for America’s good because they loved her deeply.
Christians should engage, not retreat. Faith in politics is not a threat to democracy—it helps nurture it.
“We don’t want a state church.” – Daniel Darling
“It’s good for Christians to be patriotic.” – Daniel Darling
“We have to live side by side with people.” – Daniel Darling
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Transcript is AI generated and may contain errors
[00:00:00:00] Wilk Wilkinson:
What does it really mean to be a Christian patriot? Is loving God and country compatible? Or does it put us at odds with our faith? In this episode, Daniel Darling joined me to challenge the misconceptions, push back on the fear surrounding Christianity and public life, and remind us why religious freedom and pluralism matter. Now more than ever. Welcome back, my friends, for the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross-partisan organization working towards civic renewal. This podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ. Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the Hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Share it with a friend and visit BraverAngels.org to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partisan divide. Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it. This week I am joined once again by my friend Daniel Darling. Many of you may remember our earlier conversation about his book, Agents of Grace. This time, Dan returns to talk about his newest book, In Defense of Christian Patriotism. We dive deep into the difference between Christian patriotism and Christian nationalism, two terms that often get conflated but could not be more different. Dan reminds us that loving God first actually allows us to love our country rightly. We also explore the founders’ vision of religious liberty, the dangers of forced religion, and the importance of protecting a pluralistic public square where people of all faiths can contribute. As America approaches its 250th anniversary, this conversation couldn't be more timely. Together, we unpack why Christians should engage in politics without fear, why pluralism strengthens democracy, and how true patriotism must always be rooted in love, not cynicism. It's another episode you won't want to miss. Here we go. Daniel Darling, how are you, my friend? Welcome back to the Derate the Hate podcast. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I always enjoy our conversations. I think the last time we saw each other was Braver Angels National Convention last year in Kenosha. Yeah, yeah. So I know we had that conversation. Then I had you on the podcast back on episode 195 or 196, talking about your book, Agents of Grace, and how we can bridge divides loving how Jesus loved. And I really enjoyed that conversation, Dan. And, when I saw you have this new book coming out, In Defense of Christian Patriotism, I wanted to have you back on. So, again, thank you. Thank you for being here. So Dan, tell me what inspired this book. We’ve been hearing a lot lately, and I just want to ask you this, because Christian patriotism, Christian nationalism—those, I have to imagine, are to a certain extent different things. But what does Christian patriotism mean to you?
[00:03:29:07] Daniel Darling:
I'm really good, man. It’s so good to be back on the podcast talking to you. Hope you’re well. Thank you for having me. This book came from years of reflection. I’ve always felt fairly patriotic. As a kid, our family drove to Washington, D.C., toured the monuments, and I remember standing at the Lincoln Memorial filled with awe and pride in our country. In recent years, particularly conservative Christians—of which I’d include myself—have been fed a steady diet of shame for loving our country or being involved in politics, as if loving your country makes you less faithful as a Christian. I want to disabuse people of that. C.S. Lewis, Chesterton, Augustine—all point out that if you love God first and rightly order your loves, you can and should love your country well. Too many commentators—especially on the left—conflate the worst elements with all Christian conservatives under the banner of “Christian nationalism,” as if everyone who loves their country or votes a certain way is a nationalist. Yes, there’s a small group that calls itself nationalist—rethinking the Constitution, musing about a theocratic state or a “Christian Caesar,” or requiring officeholders to be Christian. I oppose that. I’m a Baptist. I believe a free church in a free state is right. Government shouldn’t dictate belief or pave over conscience—Jesus said, “Render to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.” But it’s a small group. Too often media and the left conflate folks like you and me—who love God and country and bring Christian principles into the public square—with something dangerous. I don’t believe that’s fair. It is good and right for Christians to be patriotic. Scripture calls us to seek the welfare of our city—you can’t do that if you hate your country. I argue Christianity isn’t a threat to democracy; it nurtures it. Our founders and many leaders understood this. Even non-Christians should agree that a healthy dose of Christianity among Americans is generally good for the country.
[00:08:15:09] Wilk Wilkinson:
Absolutely. A couple things I want to dive deeper on. First, the imposition of a particular faith—something you’ve written and talked about before—whether it’s putting the Ten Commandments in a classroom or religion imposed by the state or a theocracy. Talk about that. Then, I want to circle back to that smaller group who say everyone in government must be Christian—why that’s off base. More broadly, the concept of imposed religion—what it means and how off base it is.
[00:09:12:14] Daniel Darling:
The founders—though not all evangelical Christians as we’d define it—were steeped in Christianity. Even Jefferson, likely the most secular, said you need healthy Christianity for the American experiment to work; Adams said the system is made for a religious and moral people. The Declaration roots rights in God—not government. They didn’t want a state church; history showed how badly that goes for both church and state—cozy alliances, religious wars, persecution. Religious freedom was the better way to order government. That aligns with Christian doctrine. In the New Testament Paul urges prayers for leaders so that we may live quiet, peaceful lives; the church needs freedom to worship, not government-enforced belief. As a Baptist, I believe Christianity flourishes in the marketplace of ideas—by the Holy Spirit’s work, not government’s. What the founders didn’t intend is a late-20th- and early-21st-century idea that “separation of church and state” means driving Christianity out of government and the public square, or treating devout officeholders as theocrats. They wanted people of faith participating in government—just not a state church. Forced conversion is not genuine conversion. But we also shouldn’t push secularism that evicts Christians from public life. There is no truly “neutral” or “naked” public square—something will fill the void. We don’t want the government saying “you must believe X,” but neither should Christians be pushed out. People of many faiths bring their values to the public square, live alongside those who disagree, and work for the common good.
[00:13:28:23] Wilk Wilkinson:
Right—people often conflate freedom of religion with freedom from religion. Then “freedom from” becomes “I don’t want to hear or see any of it.” From our Braver Angels work, we know siloing breeds misunderstanding. As Monica Guzmán says, those underrepresented in our lives become overrepresented in our imaginations—we invent monsters out of what we don’t know. Christianity—like many faiths—is beautiful when you actually know it. There’s also that loud minority: “Only Christians in government,” “It’s a Christian nation,” “No Muslims in office.” Talk about the dangers of that mindset. And yes, forced compliance with a religion is dangerous. More broadly, when people are lumped with extremists, they self-censor; they stop speaking. That’s unhealthy for faith and patriotism. It’s like guns—every NRA member gets blamed for the worst actions of a few. Same thing happens with Christians, conservatives, white males—society takes the craziest examples and smears the rest. I liked your example of the church ladies running VBS and raising mission funds—how do you equate them with January 6 rioters? You can’t. But people try—tying the best of us to the worst of us.
[00:16:12:14] Daniel Darling:
It’s a small segment of Americans who want a state church. Surveys—even among very conservative Southern Baptists—show strong support for religious liberty for all faiths. General polling suggests maybe 8–10% favor things like a state church or requiring Christians for office—largely an academic conversation (Protestant “Christian nationalists” or Catholic integralists). History shows state-church arrangements don’t work; forced conversion isn’t real conversion; they create nominalism and give the state a power God didn’t grant—deciding right vs. wrong belief. It’s also not politically feasible—you can’t get Americans to vote for a state church. Some of this impulse comes from frustration at being pushed out of the public square or shamed for patriotism. Contemporary examples of state-church dynamics show problems—from Putin’s Russia (with persecution of non-Orthodox evangelicals) to the Church of England’s struggles. America’s system isn’t perfect, but it’s hard to find a better one. If you want America more Christian in character, the path is local—churches, communities, families, sharing faith, as we’ve seen in awakenings and revivals. And we should still seek the flourishing of neighbors who disagree—people made in God’s image. Most Christians are simply patriotic folks who want freedom, families, and a flourishing country.
[00:20:07:01] Wilk Wilkinson:
Same here—as a Christian conservative who loves Jesus and His teachings and what they’ve done for humanity. It worries me that a growing segment fears Christianity itself. You’ve said “public square” a lot—I think Christianity wins in that marketplace of ideas. Why do so many fear Christianity, and why must Christian patriotism be defended instead of simply accepted?
[00:21:35:03] Daniel Darling:
It’s layered. Since mid-20th century there’s been a far-left intellectual push (beginning in the academy) to sideline Christianity as dangerous or retrograde, which spread culturally. Jurisprudence for a while treated any government contact with Christianity as a violation—thankfully some Supreme Court rulings have corrected that over-correction. Media coverage can be biased due to cultural concentration away from conservative Christian communities—so ordinary believers are treated like a strange species. Post-January 6, a lot of analysis conflated the worst actors with every evangelical. But the church ladies doing VBS and raising mission funds—people raising families—are not extremists. Every movement has its “crazy uncles” on both sides; conflating them with the mainstream is unfair. Also, when Christians live out their faith in voting and public life, some on the left are fine with piety on Sunday but not with lived convictions in civic life—yet there’s plenty of religious mixing on the left without the same alarm. There’s been a push to exclude us from the public square, though I sense a vibe shift. Sadly, this has made many good conservative Christians second-guess their love of country and withdraw from the fray.
[00:25:08:23] Wilk Wilkinson:
A couple key points: Christians are supposed to profess our faith—never forced on anyone—but free expression and sharing are vital. When people get lumped with extremists (politics, COVID, etc.), they self-censor. That’s bad for Christianity and patriotism—especially when the two are combined. The conflation problem shows up whenever there’s a national story about gun violence—suddenly every NRA member is blamed. Likewise with Muslims when someone commits violence “in the name of Allah,” or with Christians, white males, conservatives—the worst examples get used to smear the whole. I’m glad you raised the church ladies—how do you equate them with January 6 rioters? You can’t. But people try to make the best of us look like the worst of us.
[00:28:22:06] Daniel Darling:
There’s long-standing animus toward people of faith. Reagan caught grief for evangelical commitments; George W. Bush said Jesus was his favorite philosopher and media panic ensued about theocracy. More recently, Speaker Mike Johnson referenced God’s providence and some labeled him a “white nationalist with a smile.” There’s also anger at “thoughts and prayers” after shootings—no one says prayer is all we should do, but disparaging sincere prayer in grief reveals animus. The Christian response shouldn’t be animus in return but bold love: love neighbors, love country, live our faith openly. I’m making the case that Christians being patriotic is good—for them and for America. Yes, there are bad examples and extremists; but overall Christians are good for the country. As we approach America 250, we should ask what it looks like to love God first and also love country—what do we really mean by patriotism?
[00:30:38:03] Wilk Wilkinson:
That’s important for all Americans, not just Christians. As we approach the 250th anniversary of the Declaration, what does it mean to love your country? We hear a lot about populism; I recently hosted a conversation about religious pluralism in a more populist era. We hear about Christian nationalism, but pluralism is essential in the U.S. As we near the end here—talk quickly about pluralism, the American identity, and how to support pluralism, be good Christians, and be patriots.
[00:32:15:15] Daniel Darling:
First, patriotism is not blind support for whoever’s in power—this isn’t “dear leader.” Teddy Roosevelt said patriotism can mean opposing policies out of love of country. Real patriotism rejects cynicism—on left and right—that roots against America or declares the project failed. You renew a country out of deep love, like our best heroes did. On pluralism: it doesn’t paper over differences or pretend agreement. It means living side by side with people we profoundly disagree with. My Christianity teaches me my neighbors bear God’s image and I must love them. That’s how the American experiment works best—bringing our full convictions into common life and finding how to live together. Braver Angels models this beautifully: nobody asks you to be less Christian, less conservative, or if you’re on the left, less progressive. Bring it all, then ask: where do we agree, and how do we live as neighbors who love our country? That’s the founders’ vision, and it’s how we help America flourish for future generations.
[00:35:19:23] Wilk Wilkinson:
Absolutely. As we approach 250 years and reflect on identity—step into your Christian faith, lean into American patriotism, embrace religious pluralism. These can coexist and matter greatly. And you don’t have to be anything other than who you are to be part of Braver Angels—we’re not asking anyone to become “squishy middle.” If you’re conservative or Christian, bring that into the conversation. Daniel Darling, thank you for joining me again. The book is In Defense of Christian Patriotism, out September 30, 2025. This will likely air shortly after. Dan, it’s been a pleasure—looking forward to next time.
[00:36:32:17] Daniel Darling:
Thank you—and I love the work you’re doing. Honored to be a guest today.
[00:36:37:20] Wilk Wilkinson:
Friends, thank you for tuning in. If anything in this episode brought you value, please hit share. If you haven’t already, subscribe to get the Derate the Hate podcast in your inbox every week. We really are better together—please visit BraverAngels.org and consider joining the movement toward civic renewal and bridging our divides. This is Wilk wrapping up for the week: get out there, be kind to one another, be grateful for everything you’ve got, and remember—it's up to you to make every day the day you want it to be. I’m going to back on out of here, and we’ll catch you next week. Take care.
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