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Leadership Beyond the Checklist: How “Being” Leaders Create Value and Navigate Complexity
What if the most important factor in your growth isn’t your environment, resources, or even your skillset—but your mindset?
This week on Derate the Hate, I sit down with Dr. Ryan Gottfredson, one of today’s leading voices in leadership development and personal transformation. Ryan is a Wall Street Journal and USA Today best-selling author whose books—Success Mindsets, The Elevated Leader, and Becoming Better—have reshaped the way individuals and organizations approach growth.
Ryan has worked with top leadership teams at CVS Health, Deutsche Telekom, Experian, and many more, guiding executives and managers through a process he calls vertical development. Instead of simply adding new knowledge, vertical development transforms how we see the world and respond to challenges. It’s the difference between managing complexity and truly thriving in it.
In this episode, Ryan and I cover:
✅ Why mindset is the foundation for success in leadership and life
✅ The science of vertical development and how it differs from traditional training
✅ Practical steps to begin transforming your own mindset today
✅ How personal growth ripples out to elevate teams, organizations, and even communities
Whether you’re a CEO, a parent, or simply someone who wants to “become better,” this conversation will give you tools to rethink how you grow, lead, and connect with others.
🌐 Website: ryangottfredson.com
📘 Facebook: Ryan Gottfredson PhD
🐦 Twitter/X: @RyanGottfredson
🔗 LinkedIn: Ryan Gottfredson
📸 Instagram: @ryangottfredson
▶️ YouTube: Ryan Gottfredson, PhD
The world is a better place if we are better people. That begins with each of us as individuals. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for all you’ve got. Make every day the day that you want it to be!
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Welcome to the Derate The Hate Podcast!
*The views expressed by Wilk, his guest hosts &/or guests on the Derate The Hate podcast are their own and should not be attributed to any organization they may otherwise be affiliated with.
Transcript is AI Generated and may contain errors
00:00:00:00 — Wilk Wilkinson
Sometimes the biggest obstacle to becoming a better leader or even a better human being isn’t our circumstances, but the mindset we carry. My guest today, Doctor Ryan Gottfredson, has spent his career showing leaders and organizations how to shift their thinking in ways that unlock growth, resilience and transformation. This conversation will leave you rethinking what it truly means to become better.
Welcome back, my friends, for the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross. partisan organization working towards civic renewal.
This podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ.
Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the Hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Share it with a friend and visit BraverAngels.org to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partisan divide.
Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it.
Doctor Ryan Gottfredson is a leadership development author, researcher, and consultant who has worked with top organizations like CVS health, Deutsche Telekom and the Federal Reserve Bank. He's the Wall Street Journal and USA today bestselling author of Success Mindset, The Elevated Leader and his latest book, Becoming Better. Ryan's groundbreaking work focuses on vertical development, helping people and organizations not just learn more, but transform how they see and engage with the world.
In this conversation, Ryan and I dig into what it takes to rewire our thinking why mindsets with a hidden driver of success and culture, and how personal transformation leads to better leadership, stronger communities, and a healthier society. You're about to hear powerful insights that apply to leaders in the boardroom. Parents at home, and anyone who wants to grow into the best version of themselves.
With that, let's welcome my friend, Doctor Ryan Gottfredson. Here we go.
Ryan Gottfredson, thank you for joining me on the Derate the Hate podcast. It's, it's great to see you today.
00:03:24:13 — Ryan Gottfredson
Hey, and thanks for having me on. Thanks for creating a great podcast for people like myself can come on and hopefully share some ideas that help people become better versions of themselves.
00:03:35:01 — Wilk Wilkinson
And becoming better versions of ourselves couldn't be more important. Ryan, it's, it's one of these things where there are a lot of people that that are out there right now struggling to to find their place, find their way and, and, sometimes it just takes the right voice, the right message to, get them on the right path. And that's why I love doing this podcast and, having conversations with, with people like you that are out there trying to better the world in which we live. So, so again, grateful that you've joined me today. And and I know one of the things that we're going to talk about is, is, you had sent over some material and a new book that you've got coming out or came out recently is, is “Becoming Better” and, when I think about the Derate the Hate podcast and what we're trying to do here, bettering the world one attitude at a time, I think about mindsets. And then I started to look at the work that you've done and, with, with other book success mindsets and, and a lot of the interviews that you've done over the years, Ryan, and the work that you've done just just really stood out to me. So I wanted to talk a little bit about your your most recent book, and then, we'll probably transition a little bit into, how we, as, leaders or how we as individuals, can better interact with, people based on our mindset, being that it's so important these days. In, how we interact. So, first of all,
00:05:02:23 — Ryan Gottfredson
Let's
00:05:03:13 — Wilk Wilkinson
Talk about.
How you kind of got into this space. Ryan. What was your path for trying to help people, better themselves, better their mindsets and and then ultimately becoming better leaders in many ways.
00:05:20:14 — Ryan Gottfredson
Yeah. So for some context, I am a leadership professor at Cal State Fullerton, so I'm in Southern California, and I also do I kind of employ my research, and then I do leadership development consulting for organizations. And so part of my background is I got a PhD in organizational behavior and human resources from Indiana University.
And when I was doing my dissertation, which was on leadership, I had the great opportunity of reviewing the last 70 years of leadership research.
And what I learned is, is that there's really been one primary question that's been asked over the last 70 years. And that primary question is, what did leaders need to do to be effective? And and it's a good question. And we produced some good answers that have been really helpful. But at the same time, that question feels shortsighted to me, because to me, leadership isn't about doing certain types of things.
It's about being a certain type of person, being a person that others want to follow and be influenced by. And so over the last 11 years since I graduated with my PhD, that's been the focus of my research. How do we tap into the being side of leadership? How can we help leaders and people become the type of people that others want to follow and be influenced by?
And that's ultimately where my new book, Becoming Better, came out of. It's just kind of the culmination of this research over the last 11 years.
And I think there it reveals the core ideas that reveals a developmental path that most of us aren't familiar with that is focused on our being as opposed to our doing.
00:07:06:17 — Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah. that's a hugely important thing. And and as somebody who spent a lot of my career, leading people and training other leaders, one of the last people had the, honor to, of working with and, and training in that leadership space and that leadership development. That's one of the last things that I left him with when I left was, be the type of leader who you don't have to make people do things, but be the kind of leader that people want to do things for or people understand your vision. and then just naturally do the things that you need to do. But but being that leader is often, in my perspective, being, somebody who can, who can help and provide the tools and the resources and things for, for their team to succeed. So, so talk to me then, what the difference is and maybe clarify for, for the listeners what the difference is between that doing space what that doing better path is and what that being inside or that being a better leader is.
00:08:15:20 — Ryan Gottfredson
Yeah. So I think it's helpful to kind of, in your mind's eye, kind of think about a graph. You've got an x axis and you've got a y axis. And these two sides represent two different sides of ourselves. So the x axis is what I call our doing side. This is our level of talent, knowledge, skills and abilities.
And but there's another side of ourselves that is our being side. And that's actually the quality. And sophistication of our internal operating system. And so
I think it is helpful to just kind of dive into this from a leadership perspective. Right. For in most organizations, we can ask the question, who gets promoted into leadership roles? Well, it's generally the people that have the most knowledge and the most skill, right?
They're the ones that are further out along the doing side. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that. But just because somebody has the knowledge and skills to be able to do things doesn't necessarily mean that they have the being side capacity to lead effectively. That's right. And so when we have leaders that are and I would say this is the common issue when we have leaders that are micro managers, generally these are leaders that are really high on the doing side.
They know how to do it and they know how to do it the right way. But their being side altitude is rather low and they have some generally some self-protective fears about looking bad or failing. And it's those self-protective fears that cause them to be two hands on and micromanaging in those situations as opposed to empowering. And so I think it is helpful if we've got this x and y axis, we could essentially create four quadrants low, low, high doing low being high being low doing, and then high doing, high being.
And of course, ultimately where we want to be is in that high, high quadrant. But what we find is that most employees are in the low, low quadrant and most leaders are in the high doing, low being quadrant. So
what the piece that's missing in my mind is this focus on the being side. Does that make sense or anything. We want to clarify there.
00:10:30:13 — Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah. So it certainly makes sense to me. And I've seen this plenty of times. Over the course of my career Ryan, where you're absolutely right, the, the micromanaging. And I know another thing that you've talked about, and I've actually talked about it several times in my career, is, is the concept of just checking boxes, right?
I mean, we've got a checklist. We need things this, these, this, this, this, this and this are all the things that we need to check off. Once we've checked them off, we feel accomplished. But are we really being that person, that that team that those that look to us for leadership, are we being that leader that they need to be because you can check boxes off all day long.
but quite often you fall short in being that leader that that team needs. So if you could, I get it. But if you could, can you provide an example for the people listening? What, what that might look like.
00:11:31:16 — Ryan Gottfredson
Well, yeah. So in my book I the there's three parts to my book and, and the, the premise of this book is if we want to become transformational better, we need to focus on developing along our being side. And that's just not the side that we're used to focusing on. I mean, you think about our education systems or athletic programs, and our organizational development efforts are a lot about gaining new knowledge and new skills.
And to your point, checking off the boxes, right? So we know how to do the doing side development. We generally are not very familiar with that being side development. And so in my mind there's three steps that we need to take. The first step is recognizing that we do have a being side and learning what that is. And we're kind of starting to step into that.
The second step is to be able to evaluate our altitude along our being side. And then the third step is then to do the work of elevating along our being side. And so the to bring this to life a little bit more, I think it might be helpful for me to share a framework, that I've become familiar with that allows us to kind of evaluate our being side altitude.
Is it okay if we jump into that framework?
00:12:40:20 — Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah. Please do.
00:12:42:00 — Ryan Gottfredson
Okay. So this framework comes from the field of developmental psychology. And developmental psychology is all about how people develop throughout their lifespan. Now the majority of this research focuses on child development,
that children, as they go from infants to adults, they go through a number of different stages. And for a long time, the assumption is, is that once people hit adulthood, they stop developing.
But that's not the case. So. So what adult development psychologists have learned is that as adults, we can develop and in fact, if I identified three different adult development stages. Now, what's really fascinating about this is that while adults can develop what they find is that most adults don't develop. And so if we've got these three stages, what they find across all adults, 64% stay at a base level, 35% get to the second level, and only 1% gets to that third level.
And I think if we can unpack these stages a little bit, that'll help us to better kind of understand what we're talking about with this being side, is it is that okay if we go there?
00:13:54:09 — Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah, yeah, let's get into that just a little bit. And I mean, I don't know that we want to get too far into the weeds with that, but but I think it's definitely important because it very much relates to, to, how we interact with others, whether we're a leader of a team or whether we're in a situation where that adult developmental thing is definitely important in the concept of how we relate to others and how we can work through complex.
Tasks.
With other people. So I think it's hugely important that we talk a little bit about it. Yes.
00:14:28:03 — Ryan Gottfredson
Yeah. So to that point is that when we understand this, is that the lower we are on our being side, the more difficult it is for us to navigate conflict, for example, or challenging situations, complexity. And the higher we go on our being side, we actually elevate and our ability to navigate complexity. So you'll you'll see this as we kind of go along.
So just at a high level, when people operate at the, at the base level. Now, what we need to understand is that whatever level we're at, our bodies are wired to fulfill different needs. So at the base level, our bodies are wired to fulfill the needs of safety, comfort and belonging. And when we're here and whether we're here now or not, we've all been here.
And when we're here, we want to join with groups that will help us to feel safe, to feel comfortable and like we belong. So this is can be family groups, friend groups, social groups, political groups, religious groups, etc.. And when we're in these groups, we don't step forward and say, I want to take charge. What we say is, I don't want to take charge.
I'll let you tell me what to do, and I will go and do it, provided you feel you keep me safe, comfortable and feeling like I belong. Yes. And when we operate in that level, we we while we feel like we're self-directed, ultimately we're dependent thinkers. We're dependent upon kind of the leaders of the group to tell us what to do.
Does that first level make sense to you?
00:16:00:09 — Wilk Wilkinson
Absolutely. Yeah. Dependent thinking Absolutely.
00:16:03:09 — Ryan Gottfredson
Good. So and again wired for safety comfort and belonging. The next level up.
So again 64% operate at that of people operated that base level. The next level up this level two is our body's needs change as we do this. It's called vertical development. When we elevate along our being. So so when we vertically develop up to that second level, our needs change.
Now to stand out, advance and get ahead. We know that this is a step up because now our body is willing to be unsafe, uncomfortable and not belong in order to stand out, advance and get ahead. And so when when we make this shift, we move away from being a dependent thinker to now being an independent thinker. I've got my own good ideas and I want to put them to the test.
And this is where, as I mentioned, 85% of leaders operate at this level because they're these independent thinkers that want to stand out, advance and get ahead. Oftentimes in kind of leader speak, we want to hit results. We want to hit outcomes, particularly in the short term.
Okay. At the third level. Now here again our needs are going to change. So we're not wired to stand in and we're not wired to stand out. What we're wired to do is to contribute, add value and lift others. And as we make this shift, we're now focusing less on ourself, either standing in or standing out and now on a purpose that's bigger than ourselves.
And as we make this shift, we're now gone from a dependent thinker at that first level to an independent thinker at that second level. And now at this third level, we become an interdependent thinker, which is incredibly important for navigating complexity, conflict, and any sort of difficult relationship. And ultimately, if we're going to navigate those circumstances at a really high level, we've got to develop up into that third level and and only 1% of adults seem to get there, and 8% of leaders get to that level.
And I don't think it's because it's impossible to get there. Right. Or even really difficult. I think it's largely because most people aren't aware of these different levels. And if you don't know that they're there, you don't have anything to shoot towards, if that makes sense.
00:18:27:10 — Wilk Wilkinson
I was just going to say that a lot of times people fall into that and this this applies to so many things in life, Ryan. But a lot of times people just they don't know what they don't know, and they haven't been made aware that, like you said, these, three different levels, the the dependent, the independent, the interdependent, and how we can work to I love that to contribute, add value and help others and that that's one thing that that I think a lot of people who have who find themselves in leadership roles, see, or at least many of the ones that I've spoken with, see is, is, yes, the difference between that leader or that manager who checks a box. this this definitely brings to mind, the book, The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People for me with Stephen Covey and how he talks about, leadership, leaders versus managers and how we work through things. Again, managers I think manage they check boxes.
Leaders become something they become and find themselves in that being space a lot more. And they just are that leader that people need because they are there to contribute, add value and help others.
00:19:46:10 — Ryan Gottfredson
Yeah. One of the things you brought up Stephen Covey's book and I agree with your comments there. Let me bring up another classic, if you will,
which some of your listeners might be familiar with. It was published, 25 years ago now, but it the book is good to great, written by Jim Collins, who compares really great organizations to organizations in the same industry that are just good.
And one of his primary findings from his research there is what he calls level five leadership. So what he says is there's kind of five different levels of leadership sophistication. And really the bottom two levels are about individual contributors. And then you've got the top three leaders that are relate to different leaders who operate at different levels of sophistication and, and the framework that I just walked you through, those three levels actually maps on pretty precisely what Jim Collins is model.
I don't think he was familiar with the adult development psychology literature, but it maps on still the same. So if you're somebody who's who's familiar with Jim Collins's work, hopefully as we went through those three levels that we can make a connection there.
00:20:52:22 — Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah, yeah definitely good to great. And just an incredible, incredible guidebook, for, leaders. So, so let's take this thing, this adult development side of, of what you're talking about then, Ryan. And take that to to how we then relate maybe somebody who's not in a leadership role because, not everybody finds themselves in leadership roles, but they do find themselves in difficult conversations.
They do find themselves working through complex things with people, whether it be in their family, in their community, in politics, whatever the case may be. But they do find themselves having to, to deal with some of these things. And, and I think a lot of people do want to contribute, but maybe they just don't know how or they do want to be a bigger part of the solution, but they don't know how that adult development thing, I think, is going to be very important and tie in closely here.
So let's talk a little bit about that.
00:21:50:21 — Ryan Gottfredson
Yeah, for sure. So one of the things that's helpful to recognize and hopefully you kind of felt into this as I was going through those three different levels. But what we have along our being side really is this continuum. We're on the lower side as our body is wired more for self-protection, and as we move up on the being side, our body becomes more wired for value creation.
So and this is literally about our bodies wiring and how our body is naturally going to react or respond to situations. So what I find is that people that are lower on their being side have a tendency to be more reactive. They have a more narrow window, a tolerance, whereas people on the higher being side, they are less reactive, more intentional and have a wider window of tolerance.
So let me bring this to life. So I'm just going to give you a quick example. Well, how would you say most people respond to constructive criticism? They get what.
00:22:51:23 — Wilk Wilkinson
A lot of times people get frustrated, they get angry, they get embarrassed. I mean, there's just a number of different, a range of emotions that people feel.
00:23:00:18 — Ryan Gottfredson
Right. And I'll add to that defensive. Right. In addition to that. Right. And everything that you said, these feelings right are things that naturally come up. And these are uncomfortable feelings. Well, how does our body want to deal with that? Well, oftentimes we will get defensive as a self-protective strategy in that moment. And that helps us to feel good in that moment.
If I kind of get defensive, if I kind of push against and resist that constructive criticism. So that helps me right now. But what that reaction does is it inhibits me from learning, growing and developing to become a better value creator. That's right. And so what I've learned is that people who are lower on their being side again, are more reactive and self-protective and, and we've kind of brought that to life with, with this example of constructive criticism.
But the people that are the highest on their being side, when they receive constructive criticism, they don't react in a defensive way. Instead, what their body is able to do is to create space and sit with those ideas. Now, it doesn't mean that they agree with those ideas, but they're able to sit with them and then process through.
Is there something here that I could benefit from? I mean, these ideas may come from my worst enemy. Who is Mal intended? And that, again, doesn't mean that I have to agree with it. But there might be a kernel of truth that I want to observe so that I could become a better value creator.
And so hopefully that's just a quick example to kind of show how in sticky situations where somebody might be more prone to move in a reactive way, and somebody else may be more prone to create space, and ultimately that's what's needed to navigate.
I'm going to call these sticky situations.
00:24:58:13 — Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, things that come to mind for me there, Ryan, or things that I've talked about quite often and, and, and, part of my personal journey, part of things that I've had to, to work through as a, as a person to, to, I think elevate, levels there. And, some days are better than others, but getting beyond that, that space where I was very reactive and maybe, very, let's just say, far more incapable of dealing with constructive criticism or things that were outside of my control, things like that.
Very reactive. And, and that's why quite long or quite a long time ago, I came up with the phrase don't allow your emotions to dictate your actions. And it's it's one of the things that I've, I've tried to live by, not, when people have heard me say it, but I'll just share it with you.
I don't expect anybody to become like this emotionless automaton that that just doesn't have any feelings towards anything.
But it's not a matter of of the feelings that we have. It's a it's how we allow those feelings to then, allow us to operate, beyond that point. Right. The feelings are there. We can't control how we feel. We can control how we react to how we feel. But then the thing that I, I'm hearing you say, about creating that space and opening up that space to start thinking about what was it that was just said, maybe I'm having a conversation with somebody who I know is diametrically opposed to, to me on a particular issue.
Maybe it's a values driven issue, maybe it's a political hot button issue, whatever the case may be. But but when I am listening to that person, first of all, the important part is to actually listen to what they're saying. Yeah, absorb what is being said. Take that in and then create that space to really think about it and how, and how I feel about it, not how I'm going to react to it in this moment, but how I feel about it, why I feel what I feel about it, and how I'm going to move forward.
And if there's something that I can learn about it. I think a lot of our learning, Ryan and I, and I'll have you comment on this because I think this is a huge thing, in the mindset space and in the, bridge building space and everything else, I think a lot of our learning comes from stepping outside of our comfort zone.
And I think stepping outside of our comfort zone often means taking that information in and then creating that space for ourself, introspection, to start looking at it and figuring out why is it that we feel exactly, why is it that we feel the way we feel about this particular thing? So kind of dive into that a little bit for me.
00:27:46:19 — Ryan Gottfredson
Yeah, there's a few ideas come up for me that I think might be helpful is one I think you bring up this really great point. The first key is listening. Now we can look at listening from a doing side perspective. Do you have the skills able where you're able to listen and write everybody up unless you're deaf? We all have the skills to listen.
We all know how to listen. We can all listen. We know we could do that. But the question becomes, can we employ those skills in these sticky situations? And that doesn't have anything to do with our doing side that has everything to do with our being side. And so kind of the terminology that, comes to my mind is you're kind of talking through this is our being side is really our ability to emotionally regulate ourselves in these sticky situations.
And so what I've learned is that as people vertically develop along their being side, they and as we get to that, really that top level of development, rarely are we going to see anybody polarized there in terms of, let's just say a political stance. It could be a value stance, it could be a political stance. But let's just say it's a political stance.
Right. And why is that? Well, what I've learned is that the people, when we get to be this complex, interdependent thinker, we recognize that there's multiple sides to any argument. And and we recognize that there are pros and cons to all of these sides.
And it's not that these individuals don't take a stance. I think they generally do take a stance, but rarely is it polarized, because where they actually like to play is in the messiness of the middle.
They want to understand the complexity of the issue so that they could better determine how to best position themselves, given the values that they have. And they're not in a position of being defensive, they're in a position of having the capacity to listen, learn and reach, either recalibrate for themselves or be in a position to help people recalibrate themselves.
And that's just, unfortunately, we just don't see that a lot. Right? If we recognize that 64% of individuals are at the base level, these are the people that are more inclined to be polarized and, and and at the end of the day, it's really difficult to have a productive conversation if somebody doesn't have a very high being.
Cite altitude.
00:30:26:21 — Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah. I think we're in a unique time and I, I don't know how unique it is, but a unique time in history. Here, Ryan, where there has been a lot, just far too, too much of the, And I don't think allowance is the right word, but we have allowed our emotions and the loudest voices in the room, which are often not the most being side.
The people in the room. But but we've allowed the loudest voices, to kind of take over, the microphone and, this is one of the problems and I, I consider myself in many ways and I don't know what your politics are, but the populist kind of messaging and, and how we, how I think we've gotten to where we are in many ways right now, which is not all bad.
It's not all good, like you said, in many things. there's nuances either way. There's pros and cons to to to all things. But there is great importance when we come to. And I don't I it I mean, you and I can talk about it from a, from a leadership perspective. Well, we probably don't have time today, but talk about it from a leadership perspective and a longevity, of certain companies and how those things, the those things work.
I mean, you talk about good, the great, and what separates the, the good companies from the great companies, longevity and long term growth and long term sustainability of things do not come from the loudest and most reactive people in the room.
it comes from those who are able to to work through that, that constructive criticism take in all points of view. And, whether we learn from them or help people help to understand others so that they can possibly learn from us.
That's that's where you get that long term sustainable growth, that long term success. So, so as we round out our time here, that our time went way too fast. There's, there's, there's so many things that we could talk here and talk about here and, and ways that this conversation could go.
But, but just round out our conversation with that, that on that last point there, Ryan. And then tell people where they can find out more about you and, we'll wrap this one up.
00:32:51:21 — Ryan Gottfredson
Yeah. No, that's great. Right. Because I, I imagine if you're listening to this podcast, you're somebody that has a desire to have a more positive influence within your spheres of influence. And what I hope you're taking away here is that to elevate our ability to have that positive influence,
it really is all about our being side. I'm not going to say the doing side doesn't help, it surely does.
But the the crucial factor is about the being side. So hopefully we've given you some ideas to think about how you can elevate yourself to truly become better. And if you want to dive into this more deeply, then of course, my new book is out Becoming Better the Groundbreaking Science of Personal Transformation.
I have within this book some free self-assessments that are designed to help us, evaluate our altitude along our being side.
And you don't need the book for those assessments. If you want to go to my website at Ryan gottfredson.com, you can take those assessments. And in fact, I'll, I'll offer this up to your listeners if you take those assessments or by the book, and you get those results and you want me to walk you through those results, then hit me up on social media or through my website, and I'd be glad to to jump on a call with you.
So, those those seem to be, in my mind, the best places to connect with me.
00:34:13:02 — Wilk Wilkinson
That is fantastic. So we will have all those ways to connect with you. Ryan, in the show notes for this episode. I do greatly appreciate you joining me here on the Derate the Hate podcast. And, keep doing all the great things that you're doing, man. It's, it's very good deal. Thank you.
00:34:27:19 — Ryan Gottfredson
Likewise. Thank you.
00:34:28:22 — Wilk Wilkinson
Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate the Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together, so please take a moment to visit Braver Angels.org and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divides.
This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friends, I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
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