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How do we cultivate purpose in a world full of noise? What does it mean to live a meaningful life rooted in empathy and civic engagement?
In this inspiring episode, Wilk Wilkinson sits down with Neil Ghosh, author of Do More Good and a global leader with over three decades of experience impacting vulnerable communities across 50+ countries. Together, they explore the intersections of personal growth, democracy, the immigrant experience, and the legacy we leave for future generations.
Neil shares how purpose is not reserved for the young or idealistic—it’s for all of us, and often found in quiet moments rather than loud declarations. He discusses the crucial role of empathy in bridging divides and reminds us that disagreement can be a creative force—not a wedge. Most importantly, he emphasizes that active, engaged citizenship is not a choice; it’s a responsibility.
🎙️ Notable quotes:
“Empathy is not a blue state value, or a red state value, it's an American value.”
“Disagreement creates innovation.”
“We have to reach out to them.”
✅ How purpose reveals itself throughout life
✅ Why Gen Z wants to talk politics at work—and how leaders can respond
✅ The power of micro-altruism in the workplace and beyond
✅ How to teach kids to recognize and reject hate
✅ Why civic engagement is the foundation of a healthy democracy
🌐 Website
Join us for this powerful reminder that small actions, grounded in empathy, can shape legacies and rebuild our democracy.
The world is a better place if we are better people. That begins with each of us as individuals. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for all you’ve got. Make every day the day that you want it to be!
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The Derate The Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels — America’s largest grassroots, cross-partisan organization working toward civic renewal and bridging partisan divides. Learn more: BraverAngels.org
Welcome to the Derate The Hate Podcast!
*The views expressed by Wilk, his guest hosts &/or guests on the Derate The Hate podcast are their own and should not be attributed to any organization they may otherwise be affiliated with.
Transcript is AI generated and may contain errors
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:23:00
Wilk Wilkinson
Today I'm sitting down with Neil Ghosh, a guy who's not just talking about change. He's out there building it. His work connects purpose, empathy and civic renewal in a way that hits right at the heart of what we're trying to do here. Psychologist Daryl Cameron nailed it when he said, if we let ourselves become callous to others needs, we risk losing
00:00:23:00 - 00:00:27:23
Wilk Wilkinson
sight of democracy and the importance of treating each other with dignity.
00:00:28:01 - 00:00:41:16
Wilk Wilkinson
That's not just food for thought, my friends. That is a wakeup call. Neil story shows us that real purpose and real empathy are not just fluff. They're foundational.
00:00:41:16 - 00:01:01:05
Neil Ghosh
So I think we kind of acknowledge the fear and the unknown part. I know I talked a lot about it because this is something coming from another country. I feel responsible that I have a duty here to to cross that bridge. So that's acknowledgment. Part of the fear and the unknown part. And then the other three, I talk about the responsibility part, which you asked me.
00:01:01:08 - 00:01:22:16
Neil Ghosh
What is your role? What is my role in this whole whole thing? So I think part of the role is absolutely is what you're doing and what we are trying to have this conversation. Having this conversation everywhere possible at a local level, at a church, at a synagogue, at a mosque, at a at a temple, at a fire station, at a sports bar, whatever.
00:01:22:17 - 00:01:49:13
Neil Ghosh
And the third point I will make that part was not to scream at you. I think it whispers. And so what I have learned in my journey, that sometimes you have to kind of tune out the noise to listen to your purpose. Nice. And everybody have a different way of doing it Wilk. And one of the things I keep harping on disagreement is healthy.
00:01:49:15 - 00:01:57:14
Neil Ghosh
That's right. Disagreement creates innovation. That's right. People are so afraid of disagreement. And I think I somehow I'm trying to,
00:01:57:14 - 00:01:58:15
Neil Ghosh
bravery,
00:01:58:15 - 00:02:11:11
Neil Ghosh
like repeat as many times I can. It was 2016. I wrote an essay called what is the Secret of America's Success? 2016 is a long, not long ago, but sometimes long ago, and a Pew Research went out.
00:02:11:11 - 00:02:15:06
Neil Ghosh
Many Americans asked, what is the secret of American success? And people said,
00:02:15:06 - 00:02:37:17
Neil Ghosh
vation hard work, moral courage. All are true. I wrote an essay arguing these are all true, but it's also empathy, which is running in the DNA of America. And I give it a lot of data to support my thesis. And one of the things I repeat these days, every opportunity I get that empathy is not a blue state value or a red state value.
00:02:37:17 - 00:02:53:01
Neil Ghosh
It's an American value. We have to accept that at at the base of our conversation. And that brings back to your conversation on engaged citizenship. Democracy requires patience, perseverance, and with capital P participation.
00:02:53:13 - 00:03:42:22
Wilk Wilkinson
Welcome back, my friends, for the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog. And those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The D Rate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross Partizan organization working towards civic renewal.
00:03:43:00 - 00:04:10:04
Wilk Wilkinson
This podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ.
00:04:10:06 - 00:04:34:13
Wilk Wilkinson
Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the Hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Share it with a friend and visit Braver angels.org to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partizan divide.
00:04:34:15 - 00:04:43:09
Wilk Wilkinson
Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it.
00:04:43:09 - 00:05:19:12
Wilk Wilkinson
Neil Ghosh is a seasoned executive, social impact strategist and author of Do More Good. With over 30 years of experience across the nonprofit, government, philanthropic and private sectors, Neil has helped launch and scale initiatives that have impacted lives in more than 50 countries. In this heartfelt and thought provoking conversation, Neil shares how purpose often whispers instead of screams, and how tuning out the noise of our everyday lives can help us find that whisper.
00:05:19:14 - 00:05:48:12
Wilk Wilkinson
We dig into what engaged citizenship looks like, especially for immigrants, contributing to the fabric of their new communities, and why teaching our children to reject hate isn't optional. It's a legacy. We also explore the radical power of empathy, the beauty of disagreement as a tool for innovation, and how business leaders can build cultures that reward micro altruism and authentic civic engagement.
00:05:48:13 - 00:06:02:16
Wilk Wilkinson
Whether you're a parent, a leader, or just someone searching for a deeper meaning and connection, this episode offers both inspiration and practical insight. Let's get into it with my friend Neil Ghosh. Here we go!
00:06:03:18 - 00:06:10:19
Wilk Wilkinson
Neil Ghosh, thank you for joining me on the Derate the Hate podcast. It is great to see you today. Man.
00:06:10:21 - 00:06:11:13
Neil Ghosh
Great to see you.
00:06:11:13 - 00:06:14:03
Neil Ghosh
I heard about your show, so I'm glad to be here.
00:06:14:05 - 00:06:18:16
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah. And I'm glad you are here because, well, originally,
00:06:18:16 - 00:06:21:22
Wilk Wilkinson
the reason that that I asked you to join me was,
00:06:21:22 - 00:06:23:05
Wilk Wilkinson
was there was a press release
00:06:23:05 - 00:06:29:10
Wilk Wilkinson
for the book that you have out called Do More Good Inspiring Lessons from Extraordinary People. And,
00:06:29:10 - 00:06:31:05
Wilk Wilkinson
I started looking into that book, Neil.
00:06:31:05 - 00:06:37:13
Wilk Wilkinson
And and there there's definitely a lot of inspiration in there. And,
00:06:37:13 - 00:06:51:07
Wilk Wilkinson
where I'd like to start our conversation today. And I know we've got a number of things that we're going to talk about, but one of the first things I want to ask you, because this is what stood out to me and this is, is Neil, what does a,
00:06:51:07 - 00:06:55:02
Wilk Wilkinson
purpose filled, meaningful life mean to you, Neil?
00:06:55:02 - 00:06:55:12
Wilk Wilkinson
Gosh.
00:06:55:12 - 00:06:57:06
Neil Ghosh
Right.
00:06:57:06 - 00:07:00:06
Neil Ghosh
I will answer it, but I will take a little detour.
00:07:00:06 - 00:07:16:02
Neil Ghosh
Just to give you a make a point here. If someone saw both of us. Wilk Wilkinson, Neil Ghosh walking down the street, they will see a lot of difference. They will see a white guy. They will see a brown guy. If they do a little bit more.
00:07:16:02 - 00:07:17:10
Neil Ghosh
Google your your your
00:07:17:10 - 00:07:34:23
Neil Ghosh
about you. They will find on your website. You are a steadfast Christian conservative. They will Google me. Maybe they might find that I was born in a Hindu family, just like a lot of your cabinet members and former presidential candidate. If they dig farther, they will find out that,
00:07:34:23 - 00:07:36:21
Neil Ghosh
you were born in the United States and,
00:07:36:21 - 00:07:38:10
Neil Ghosh
generations.
00:07:38:12 - 00:08:04:19
Neil Ghosh
And I was not I am a citizen, but I'm a naturalized citizen, and I'm giving you a long answer to make a point. I think the point is that in spite of the differences, I guarantee we both love our country. I guarantee we both love our families. I guarantee that we love our neighbors and we we both treasure the independence and that we have in this country.
00:08:04:19 - 00:08:10:17
Neil Ghosh
Right. And so I think one of my one of the things I talk about whenever I talk about purpose is
00:08:10:17 - 00:08:25:12
Neil Ghosh
unity does not mean uniformity. It's about having a common purpose. So that's the reason I kind of give you a very long answer to your question of purpose. Right. And purpose can vary. Purpose can vary.
00:08:25:12 - 00:08:32:05
Neil Ghosh
That's right. So that's my my my most favorite answer to a purposeful set. I would say one more thing though,
00:08:32:05 - 00:08:32:19
Neil Ghosh
that,
00:08:32:19 - 00:08:34:03
Neil Ghosh
there's a lot of,
00:08:34:03 - 00:08:39:15
Neil Ghosh
a lot of people think purpose only happens to when you get older, when you're mature,
00:08:39:15 - 00:08:44:23
Neil Ghosh
when you have a lot of everything is all taken care off, you kind of go into soul searching.
00:08:45:01 - 00:08:54:02
Neil Ghosh
And I totally reject that. I was very young, very young, and from a very I will not call it dirt poor, but we didn't have much. And it's,
00:08:54:02 - 00:08:55:16
Neil Ghosh
I talked a lot about in the book,
00:08:55:16 - 00:08:56:23
Neil Ghosh
my home
00:08:56:23 - 00:09:00:15
Neil Ghosh
there was a not a lot of resources, but there was no lack of empathy.
00:09:00:17 - 00:09:01:07
Wilk Wilkinson
Okay.
00:09:01:09 - 00:09:34:00
Neil Ghosh
But I had thought about purpose at a very young age. So it is not an age related conversation or even a wealth related conversation. So that's another point to make. And the third point I will make that, purpose doesn't scream at you, I think. I think it's whispers. And so what I have learned in my journey that sometimes you have to kind of tune out the noise to listen to your purpose, and everybody have a different way of doing it.
00:09:34:00 - 00:09:36:14
Neil Ghosh
Will race. I think that's my,
00:09:36:14 - 00:09:39:20
Neil Ghosh
that's my thought on the on the issue of purpose.
00:09:39:22 - 00:09:47:21
Wilk Wilkinson
I love that I absolutely love that purpose, does not scream, it whisperers. And sometimes you gotta tune out the noise.
00:09:47:21 - 00:09:50:11
Wilk Wilkinson
Neil, that is the. I love your answer,
00:09:50:11 - 00:09:56:08
Wilk Wilkinson
So I know you said it was a long answer, but worth every single second of it. Because this,
00:09:56:08 - 00:10:00:05
Wilk Wilkinson
this is such a great way to to start off this conversation.
00:10:00:05 - 00:10:00:18
Wilk Wilkinson
And,
00:10:00:18 - 00:10:08:05
Wilk Wilkinson
I, I when I started looking at the book. Right, do more good and, and started looking at,
00:10:08:05 - 00:10:13:15
Wilk Wilkinson
these different conversations and the different ways that these different people,
00:10:13:15 - 00:10:26:17
Wilk Wilkinson
whether they be different figures in history or just just different, influential and extraordinary people have affected your life. I, I was I thought to myself,
00:10:26:17 - 00:10:29:02
Wilk Wilkinson
how have different people,
00:10:29:02 - 00:10:41:19
Wilk Wilkinson
that I've encountered in my life or different people that I've read about in my life or, or different things that I've done in my life influenced me to now be somebody who.
00:10:41:19 - 00:10:56:22
Wilk Wilkinson
And I make no bones about it, Neil. I'm not somebody that who has has saw my purpose as a young, young man and and wanted to do good. I mean, I never really wanted to do bad, but I never found,
00:10:56:22 - 00:11:13:17
Wilk Wilkinson
enough there or to really want to do good. And I and I was just getting by as somebody who was just trying to get by to get by, and instead of actually trying to make a difference and do good in the world.
00:11:13:19 - 00:11:17:22
Wilk Wilkinson
But as I was looking through your book, Neil, and and saw
00:11:17:22 - 00:11:25:07
Wilk Wilkinson
some of the conversations you've had or, or read about ways that certain people have influenced you or really,
00:11:25:07 - 00:11:27:16
Wilk Wilkinson
it really stood out to me,
00:11:27:16 - 00:11:31:06
Wilk Wilkinson
in my own life experience, how I had to,
00:11:31:06 - 00:11:33:13
Wilk Wilkinson
and I hadn't thought of it that way about,
00:11:33:13 - 00:11:34:21
Wilk Wilkinson
purpose doesn't always scream.
00:11:34:23 - 00:12:06:04
Wilk Wilkinson
It whispers, and you gotta tune out the noise a lot of times, people, and I'll have you expand on this. A lot of times, people have that don't have the ability to or have not figured out a way to tune out the noise so they themselves can hear the whispers of their own purpose. So talk about how maybe how that worked for you, or how you've seen that work for other people, because tuning out the noise is often easier said than done.
00:12:06:06 - 00:12:06:20
Neil Ghosh
It is.
00:12:06:20 - 00:12:14:01
Neil Ghosh
I'll give you a little longer answer, but then again, I will start with something you said. The last comment.
00:12:14:01 - 00:12:27:02
Neil Ghosh
you and I have to make a decision. Everybody listening to you will have to make a decision. Do I want to live a reactive life or a proactive life? And what happened in most of the time?
00:12:27:03 - 00:12:30:15
Neil Ghosh
Not anybody's fault. But the moment I get up,
00:12:30:15 - 00:12:50:08
Neil Ghosh
we are. We are living in a world of division, disruption. And sometimes I call it digital overload. Right? It's so much noise. And yeah, so Alice and I have to make a conscious decision that I will not be living a reactive life, because if I do, I'm just constantly worried I'll,
00:12:50:08 - 00:12:51:02
Neil Ghosh
I'm worn out.
00:12:51:02 - 00:13:09:11
Neil Ghosh
Also, I don't have energy left because I'm always reacting to whatever I'm reacting to. So I think that maybe a conscious decision, irrespective of who you are, what are you trying to achieve in life? I find it very important to think through that comment that I want to have a proactive life, whatever life you want to live. So that's number one.
00:13:09:13 - 00:13:12:12
Neil Ghosh
I think a little bit more on a macro level.
00:13:12:12 - 00:13:13:12
Neil Ghosh
coming back to
00:13:13:12 - 00:13:32:23
Neil Ghosh
your broader question, the three pillars of this book are empathy, purpose and action. Right? I deliberately talk about these three pillars in a more detailed way, but let me frame the particular question you asked me that how do we how do we do it?
00:13:33:01 - 00:13:38:07
Neil Ghosh
And when I when I think about this, I kind of think about
00:13:38:07 - 00:13:40:07
Neil Ghosh
as we are in this country now and
00:13:40:07 - 00:13:54:11
Neil Ghosh
what's driving me? And for full disclosure, well, two months ago, I became a life member of Braver Angels. Yeah. So I just found out that you are part of it. So I'm just sharing with you because.
00:13:54:12 - 00:13:54:16
Neil Ghosh
So
00:13:54:16 - 00:14:14:12
Neil Ghosh
what's driving me? It's it's it's it's pains me to see some of this stuff. This is not the country I came. That's right. So it deeply pains me. I was 22 years old. I was very conscious of not a child. So it pains me where we are. And I have made it a point that I will do everything in my ability to, as a citizen, as an engaged citizen, to do something about it.
00:14:14:12 - 00:14:37:09
Neil Ghosh
So let me tell you the framework I'm talking about. So I see this under the three things. There are four buckets, if I may. The first one Wilk, I call it acknowledgment and let me explain. What do I mean by acknowledgment? I think and I have traveled a lot, not just internationally but within the country. And I can tell you stories after stories.
00:14:37:10 - 00:14:38:16
Neil Ghosh
Happened to me in, in,
00:14:38:16 - 00:14:40:12
Neil Ghosh
in Wyoming, in,
00:14:40:12 - 00:14:49:07
Neil Ghosh
Louisville, Kentucky, where people have been so kind to me, that is unbelievable. And it also happened people through exactly.
00:14:49:07 - 00:14:56:22
Neil Ghosh
In, in another state. So I have to make a decision what story I want to share with Will. And what story? I want to be part of my my DNA.
00:14:57:00 - 00:15:10:22
Neil Ghosh
So let me talk about the acknowledgment part. Technology part. What I say is a lot of people in this country are hurting. That's right. And are afraid. And,
00:15:10:22 - 00:15:25:11
Neil Ghosh
they are concerned about their kids. Their grandkids are concerned about their retirement. And it's more than economic. They are also afraid of the culture that they grew up with. I'll give you one story to make a point.
00:15:25:13 - 00:15:28:20
Neil Ghosh
It was 2016. I was reading a Washington Post,
00:15:28:20 - 00:15:37:08
Neil Ghosh
news report. This was a time when president that, candidate Trump was in a rally and the journalist was there,
00:15:37:08 - 00:15:39:10
Neil Ghosh
asking just people who went to the rally,
00:15:39:10 - 00:15:47:09
Neil Ghosh
why are you here? And I will never forget, I'm paraphrasing Will, because I don't remember exactly the sentence, but I remember the story.
00:15:47:11 - 00:15:50:12
Neil Ghosh
And this lady, there was a couple elderly couple and,
00:15:50:12 - 00:15:59:14
Neil Ghosh
asked the journalist, why are you here? And the lady said something along the line. She said that we have been buying bread from this,
00:15:59:14 - 00:16:12:11
Neil Ghosh
bakery for the long, all my life. And I go there now and they don't speak English now. The story hit me really hard because it's very easy to judge this person.
00:16:12:11 - 00:16:32:23
Neil Ghosh
But I did not judge this person because for me, I saw this person who was just simply afraid of the unknown. So I think we kind of acknowledge the fear and the unknown part. I know I stopped a lot about it because this is something coming from another country. I feel responsible that I have a duty here to to cross that bridge.
00:16:33:01 - 00:17:06:05
Neil Ghosh
So that's the acknowledgment part of the fear and the unknown part. And then the other three. I talk about the responsibility part, which you asked me, what is your role? What is my role right in this whole whole thing. So I think one of the role is absolutely is what you're doing and what we are trying to have this conversation, having this conversation everywhere possible at a local level, at a church, at a synagogue, at a mosque, at a at a temple, at a fire station, at a sports bar, whatever.
00:17:06:07 - 00:17:20:07
Neil Ghosh
Yeah. And one of the things I keep harping on disagreement is healthy. Let's try this again and create innovation. That's right. People are so afraid of disagreement. And I think I'm somehow I'm trying to,
00:17:20:07 - 00:17:33:23
Neil Ghosh
like repeat as many times I can. It's okay to have disagreement but have this conversation. So that's number one. Number two, I talk a lot about how do we teach our kids because they're very vulnerable to reject hate.
00:17:34:01 - 00:17:37:20
Neil Ghosh
That's right. And you and I can talk have another conversation. I met a former,
00:17:37:20 - 00:17:39:13
Neil Ghosh
white supremacist. I met,
00:17:39:13 - 00:17:43:07
Neil Ghosh
the mother of Heather, the lady who was killed in Charlottesville. I,
00:17:43:07 - 00:17:53:08
Neil Ghosh
for one of my article. Okay. And I asked him, how do you teach our kids to reject hate? And I learned something from them. So, again, the second thing I'm saying, we have to teach our kids to reject hate.
00:17:53:10 - 00:18:14:23
Neil Ghosh
And number three, I said that we have to come out of our comfort zone. What is the comfort zone we have and meet people that don't look like us. And I started the conversation about us that we look different and we have different faith. Maybe. But I can guarantee if there's a purpose you and I agree on, I think you and I can be the best partner, possibly anybody can imagine because we have a common purpose, right?
00:18:15:01 - 00:18:16:22
Wilk Wilkinson
For sure. Yes.
00:18:16:23 - 00:18:34:13
Neil Ghosh
And the third bucket, and this may be a deliberately I'm doing because I am part of the bucket is what is the role of an immigrant. And this is a very I will call it if people don't want to talk about it. It's a sensitive topic. But I decided after a long time that I must talk about it.
00:18:34:14 - 00:18:50:06
Neil Ghosh
it means that this and Damien's me, us. We have what it is that we have to learn the language. I have to engage in the community. I have to follow the local norms and regulation. Doesn't mean I'm not sacrificing my,
00:18:50:10 - 00:18:58:01
Neil Ghosh
culture or whatever I learn. But when I'm. I came here a deliberate move for my side to come to United States.
00:18:58:01 - 00:19:00:09
Neil Ghosh
So I have a responsibility to follow the
00:19:00:09 - 00:19:16:01
Neil Ghosh
norms and regulations, to participate, to engage with you and come out of my little community, get to know other people. So I have a list of things that I talk about in many of my articles. So there is a deliberate responsibility for immigrants. And of course, the last one I'm not going to ignore it.
00:19:16:03 - 00:19:21:01
Neil Ghosh
Is the government right? Of course, they ultimately make policies, and I of course hope that,
00:19:21:01 - 00:19:26:22
Neil Ghosh
they make policies that are sustainable, that inclusive, that are compassionate. And we as a citizen have,
00:19:26:22 - 00:19:30:14
Neil Ghosh
complete right to vote people and vote people out.
00:19:30:14 - 00:19:37:11
Neil Ghosh
That's what. So I kind of framework in that way so that we are an engage. I call them engaged citizens.
00:19:37:13 - 00:19:43:04
Wilk Wilkinson
Engaged citizens. Yeah. I talk a lot about engaged citizenship. And you said a lot there, Neal, that that,
00:19:43:04 - 00:19:45:15
Wilk Wilkinson
that we can unpack. I mean, we can certainly,
00:19:45:15 - 00:19:55:04
Wilk Wilkinson
we we probably don't have enough time to unpack everything in one conversation today, but I think you make some. But I don't think I know you make some incredible points here.
00:19:55:06 - 00:19:56:15
Wilk Wilkinson
And and,
00:19:56:15 - 00:19:58:02
Wilk Wilkinson
thank you for sharing.
00:19:58:02 - 00:20:11:16
Wilk Wilkinson
First of all, the, the the idea that you, you've you've traveled all over, not only around the world, but around this country and and just met some incredible people. And, and I think it is really important.
00:20:11:16 - 00:20:17:01
Wilk Wilkinson
let's just stick for, for a second. Just stick to the, the first two there because,
00:20:17:01 - 00:20:18:01
Wilk Wilkinson
obviously,
00:20:18:01 - 00:20:31:11
Wilk Wilkinson
assimilating as an immigrant, as an immigrant that's come to this country hugely important, becoming an engaged citizen and understanding our government, how it works, how you can be involved, how you can be part of the solution, hugely important.
00:20:31:17 - 00:20:36:01
Wilk Wilkinson
But let's focus on the fear part and,
00:20:36:01 - 00:20:42:13
Wilk Wilkinson
the fear and acknowledging the fear, the empathy that comes along with that. And then also the,
00:20:42:13 - 00:20:58:00
Wilk Wilkinson
the, the part where we have to reject hate because, I think, I think the to go so hand in hand, they, they do from, from so many of the conversations that I've had,
00:20:58:00 - 00:21:09:22
Wilk Wilkinson
whether it be with my work at Braver Angels, my work with the Pro Human Foundation, my conversations with former white supremacists and and and and race relations superheroes like Daryl Davis.
00:21:10:00 - 00:21:36:16
Wilk Wilkinson
I mean, the reality is, Neil and and you you hit the nail on the head is a lot of times people do not understand that a lot of what is said and, and, and maybe said is not the best way and then taken by others in the wrong way. But a lot of that stems in, in fear people,
00:21:36:16 - 00:21:39:13
Wilk Wilkinson
people, especially when it comes to the immigration topic.
00:21:39:15 - 00:21:41:18
Wilk Wilkinson
Right. And we hear people,
00:21:41:18 - 00:21:44:10
Wilk Wilkinson
maybe a Trump rally or some kind of a,
00:21:44:10 - 00:21:47:08
Wilk Wilkinson
a situation where, where,
00:21:47:08 - 00:22:01:11
Wilk Wilkinson
where just like, just like the situation where you were talking about where where the person says, hey, the bakery that I was going to for so long for such a big part of my life. Now I go to that bakery, and the people there don't even speak English,
00:22:01:17 - 00:22:05:10
Wilk Wilkinson
Is it a statement or is it a is it a statement of fear?
00:22:05:10 - 00:22:37:08
Wilk Wilkinson
Is it I mean, what what all is that is there's something more there that that we would need to dig into. But the rejection of hate has to, has to be instilled in, in everybody. I don't care what color you are, where you come from, what your cultural sensibilities are and how those relate to other people, the rejection of hate is got to be the most important thing, and I think, as my friend Daryl Davis says, a lot of that hate is the result of fear.
00:22:37:10 - 00:22:40:12
Wilk Wilkinson
People fear that which they don't understand. But,
00:22:40:12 - 00:22:42:11
Wilk Wilkinson
when we think about or when I think about,
00:22:42:11 - 00:22:46:04
Wilk Wilkinson
people on my side of the political spectrum,
00:22:46:04 - 00:22:57:07
Wilk Wilkinson
I like I said, I'm a Christian conservative. And a lot of times conservatives in general get a very bad rap because they're seen as anti-immigrant or anti-immigrant, which I don't believe at all.
00:22:57:11 - 00:23:08:18
Wilk Wilkinson
That has not been my experience. But but when when we think about that or how they are portrayed in the media by certain people in that,
00:23:08:18 - 00:23:13:20
Wilk Wilkinson
there's no delineation between illegal immigration and,
00:23:13:20 - 00:23:24:11
Wilk Wilkinson
and, and legal immigration. Yeah. And things like that. And then trying to conflate those two and then put them in the same bucket and then say that all immigration is bad.
00:23:24:11 - 00:23:55:21
Wilk Wilkinson
That's, that is a whole, that's just a nasty cycle of events that that promotes that fear, outrage and grievance that I often talk about, and people capitalize on that. But just you and I sitting here right now, Neil, has it been your life experience that quite often people seem afraid of you as an immigrant or look at you as somebody who I mean, because you're quite clearly somebody who is who has come here as a younger adult but has done incredible things,
00:23:55:21 - 00:24:00:05
Wilk Wilkinson
looking at your history and the way that you've, you've made,
00:24:00:05 - 00:24:01:13
Wilk Wilkinson
just made huge,
00:24:01:13 - 00:24:06:08
Wilk Wilkinson
accomplishments, whether it be in the world of business or in your, in your
00:24:06:08 - 00:24:27:02
Wilk Wilkinson
ventures in the nonprofit world and the people that you've been able to to reach out to and connect with and, and and the things that you've been able to do, what is your experience been as, as far as people do you do you feel? No. Unfortunately, I heard you say that somebody through exit you at one time,
00:24:27:02 - 00:24:31:14
Wilk Wilkinson
I had eggs thrown at me, but probably for different reasons.
00:24:31:16 - 00:24:32:13
Wilk Wilkinson
But,
00:24:32:13 - 00:24:40:18
Wilk Wilkinson
the reality is this is do you think that that is is indicative of how a lot of people see,
00:24:40:18 - 00:24:47:20
Wilk Wilkinson
legal immigrants, especially ones that have done incredible things as you have, as you have or
00:24:47:20 - 00:24:51:04
Wilk Wilkinson
to talk about that experience for me, if you would.
00:24:51:06 - 00:24:51:23
Neil Ghosh
Absolutely.
00:24:51:23 - 00:24:54:21
Neil Ghosh
This is such an important topic. I will do my best, I think,
00:24:54:21 - 00:24:57:10
Neil Ghosh
let me let me share a very quick story.
00:24:57:10 - 00:25:06:16
Neil Ghosh
It was 2016. I wrote an essay called What Is the Secret of America's Success? 2016 is a long, not long ago, but sometime long ago. And,
00:25:06:16 - 00:25:10:21
Neil Ghosh
Pew Research, went out. Many Americans asked, what is the secret of American success?
00:25:10:21 - 00:25:12:00
Neil Ghosh
And people said,
00:25:12:00 - 00:25:12:19
Neil Ghosh
bravery,
00:25:13:14 - 00:25:23:07
Neil Ghosh
vation hard work, moral courage, all are true. I wrote an essay arguing these are all true, but it's also empathy, which is running in the DNA
00:25:23:07 - 00:25:35:18
Neil Ghosh
of America. And I give it a lot of data to support my thesis. And one of the things I repeat these days, every opportunity I get that empathy is not a blue state value or a red state.
00:25:35:20 - 00:25:52:17
Neil Ghosh
It's an American value. We have to accept that at at the base of our conversation. Yes. Then let's talk about examples, because otherwise talk doesn't mean anything. Yes, I talked about that story of eggs. But let me tell you, there are many other story. I'll give you one example. I was in Wyoming,
00:25:52:17 - 00:25:54:08
Neil Ghosh
with my son. He was in middle school.
00:25:54:08 - 00:25:58:06
Neil Ghosh
That time. We stopped in a coffee shop and my son said,
00:25:58:06 - 00:26:12:12
Neil Ghosh
that I want to see wildlife. And I said, well, I'm not sure where the wildlife is, but we'll drive and find out we are driving. And then my son said that there's somebody following us, so I pulled over. It's not many. There's only car, my car, another car behind me.
00:26:12:14 - 00:26:19:08
Neil Ghosh
And there was a Caucasian lady in a 50s. And I said, yeah, can I help you? And she came out of a car and she said,
00:26:19:08 - 00:26:20:08
Neil Ghosh
I heard you,
00:26:20:08 - 00:26:31:22
Neil Ghosh
your son wanted to see wildlife. Just follow me. I will show you around. She spent hour and a half of her time showing a brown guy and his kid while live in Wyoming.
00:26:32:02 - 00:26:39:20
Neil Ghosh
So I can tell you stories of two stories. So there are all stories, right? We have to decide what story I want to embrace.
00:26:39:20 - 00:26:46:00
Neil Ghosh
What story I want to reject. It's up to me. That's right. Absolutely right. So,
00:26:46:00 - 00:26:48:19
Neil Ghosh
I have a friend just like you. He's a former marine.
00:26:48:19 - 00:26:54:06
Neil Ghosh
In an evangelical Christian, huge Trump supporter in every sense of the form.
00:26:54:08 - 00:27:15:13
Neil Ghosh
But when I do a check mark for values, kindness, empathy, I would give him very, very high marks. So it has nothing to do with what who you vote for and what you're doing in your life. And this is the confusion, whether it's media, whether it's I have not all the answers. I'm trying my best to find that answer because I just my friend,
00:27:15:13 - 00:27:19:18
Neil Ghosh
who is a wonderful human being in any, any shape or form, any shape or form.
00:27:19:20 - 00:27:28:15
Neil Ghosh
But how do we how do we ignite that? Empathy is the question that I know this will not be done in this conversation, you and I and others you mentioned Durham,
00:27:28:15 - 00:27:38:18
Neil Ghosh
Darrell Davis and others who are working on it. How do I ignite that empathy? How do I speak the language that you understand? How do I come across to you that you're not afraid of me?
00:27:38:22 - 00:27:43:10
Neil Ghosh
These are the things we have to answer. That's right. So common ground.
00:27:43:12 - 00:27:45:04
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah. What a beautiful story.
00:27:45:04 - 00:27:49:11
Wilk Wilkinson
the the. I almost get goosebumps from hearing stories,
00:27:49:11 - 00:28:03:21
Wilk Wilkinson
like that. How how this lady just happened over here and then. And then takes her time to to show you. And I love the fact, Neal, that you bring up the point that what story are we going to focus on in our life?
00:28:03:23 - 00:28:11:15
Wilk Wilkinson
It's why I talk so much about gratitude. Because what is it in our life that we are going to spend the majority of our time focusing on.
00:28:11:17 - 00:28:12:17
Neil Ghosh
Absolutely what.
00:28:12:19 - 00:28:15:08
Wilk Wilkinson
We started our conversation talking about,
00:28:15:08 - 00:28:41:17
Wilk Wilkinson
a purpose filled and meaningful life. Well, it is very easy to fall astray when we start to focus on all that which is negative in our life, all that which is out of our control in our life, we can easily fall astray and just fall into this ugly doldrums of of misery, because we forget how to focus on the good things.
00:28:41:19 - 00:29:00:07
Wilk Wilkinson
We forget to focus on, on all of those things that we do have as opposed to those things that we don't. All of those things that we are grateful for, as opposed to those things that are noise and anger us, and those things that we are fearful of. It's so important that people,
00:29:00:07 - 00:29:06:11
Wilk Wilkinson
again, just as you just as you said, do you want to have a proactive life?
00:29:06:13 - 00:29:10:12
Wilk Wilkinson
Do you want to focus on the good in life? Do you want to,
00:29:10:12 - 00:29:18:02
Wilk Wilkinson
build a life based on what is positive, or do you want to focus on that which is negative? Because if we want to,
00:29:18:02 - 00:29:34:14
Wilk Wilkinson
if we want to be the example that other people want to see the way that I want around this, how you were talking about your son Neil, and I know one of the chapters or the I believe it's the final chapter in your book, talks about a legacy.
00:29:34:16 - 00:29:39:13
Wilk Wilkinson
What legacy do I want to leave for my children? Right. I do,
00:29:39:13 - 00:29:41:04
Wilk Wilkinson
the one of the same things,
00:29:41:04 - 00:29:43:21
Wilk Wilkinson
that means so much to me that I know means,
00:29:43:21 - 00:29:48:18
Wilk Wilkinson
to you and your story is. And one of the reasons that I do what I do,
00:29:48:18 - 00:30:01:05
Wilk Wilkinson
in this depolarization space and in this mindset space and trying to help people now with the work that I do is because I decided a long time ago, what kind of legacy do I want to leave for my children?
00:30:01:07 - 00:30:15:11
Wilk Wilkinson
Neil, talk some about that because I know, obviously you wrapped up your book, Do More Good with a chapter on legacy and what what that means having your son in your life and what he has taught you and what you want to teach him.
00:30:15:13 - 00:30:18:16
Neil Ghosh
I always believed, if you remember, I kind of touched a little bit on,
00:30:18:16 - 00:30:36:12
Neil Ghosh
how my mindset was shaped when I was young. Right? I saw how small action, very small action, can have tremendous impact on the other person. So I've seen it as a child and that kind of shaped my DNA. The power of small action.
00:30:36:12 - 00:30:43:14
Neil Ghosh
In terms of, another thing I want to share with you, no, kids don't do what we ask them to do.
00:30:43:16 - 00:30:46:14
Neil Ghosh
They do what they see.
00:30:46:16 - 00:30:48:07
Wilk Wilkinson
What they see from us.
00:30:48:09 - 00:30:52:23
Neil Ghosh
Right? I'm a I kind of big believer of that. So,
00:30:52:23 - 00:30:56:22
Neil Ghosh
I can give you many, many stories. And I one of the thing I did with him,
00:30:56:22 - 00:31:00:10
Neil Ghosh
I, Ryan and I, we went to,
00:31:00:10 - 00:31:08:00
Neil Ghosh
Indian Reservation. The other Indian. Okay. Because I never I always wanted to meet them, and and,
00:31:08:00 - 00:31:12:06
Neil Ghosh
we were in a reservation and, we got to go into the detail of the story.
00:31:12:06 - 00:31:23:13
Neil Ghosh
There was a lot of people said, don't go. Is pretty dangerous. Actually. There was a movie made on that particular spot. Somebody was killed. And same thing. We are having this conversation. I regret to judge.
00:31:23:13 - 00:31:29:11
Neil Ghosh
this whole judgment factor is, is polluting our society because every time a particular person, whether,
00:31:29:11 - 00:31:34:14
Neil Ghosh
maybe from an ethnic background or color, whatever it is, we immediately judge the entire clan.
00:31:34:16 - 00:31:44:12
Neil Ghosh
And that is a dangerous thing to do. That's one of the many stories I deliberately went there with my son. And believe me, Wilk, after the whole day we are driving back and,
00:31:44:12 - 00:31:47:21
Neil Ghosh
the story is long. So I'm not going to give you all the details.
00:31:47:21 - 00:31:52:04
Neil Ghosh
We are driving back and my son looked at me and said, dad, they are wonderful people.
00:31:52:06 - 00:32:07:18
Neil Ghosh
So I looked at him back. I said, there are wonderful people everywhere. We just have to find them. We have to reach out to them. Otherwise we will never know. I would have never known if you haven't gone to that place with him and spend half a day in unknown place, which I was told not to go because of.
00:32:08:00 - 00:32:22:13
Neil Ghosh
they were worried about my, my, my, my safety and security. And we came out. Not only we came up, we came up with a beautiful painting that one of the guy, he gave it to me because I was confused. I was just complimenting the painting. He got a ladder, he got up and he gave me the painting.
00:32:22:13 - 00:32:42:03
Neil Ghosh
I was all confused. I said no, no, no. Anyway, I took it. It's in my house. Beautiful. But the moral of the story is that you have to be very conscious. What we are teaching the next generation, because you and I would be gone. I want to leave a country that is more safe, more prosperous, more inclusive for my kids.
00:32:42:06 - 00:32:44:20
Neil Ghosh
As simple as that. Yes.
00:32:44:22 - 00:32:54:06
Wilk Wilkinson
And that's absolutely beautiful. That is absolutely beautiful. We have to work as, I mean, all of us. We must work to leave
00:32:54:06 - 00:32:55:03
Wilk Wilkinson
a better country
00:32:55:03 - 00:32:56:11
Wilk Wilkinson
for our children.
00:32:56:11 - 00:32:56:17
Wilk Wilkinson
We
00:32:56:17 - 00:33:02:20
Wilk Wilkinson
must provide that example. You are right. It's not what we teach them. It's what we show them. And that's,
00:33:02:22 - 00:33:05:08
Wilk Wilkinson
That's why we have to be the example.
00:33:05:08 - 00:33:08:06
Wilk Wilkinson
whether it be for our kids or the people around us.
00:33:08:06 - 00:33:15:12
Wilk Wilkinson
we have to be the change that we want to see in this world. And there are so many people out there right now that,
00:33:15:12 - 00:33:24:13
Wilk Wilkinson
whether they believe they are doing good or not, a lot of the examples that they are setting is, is it's painful to watch.
00:33:24:15 - 00:33:28:05
Neil Ghosh
Can I mention one thing? Well, because this would, I think would resonate with you deeply.
00:33:28:05 - 00:33:46:12
Neil Ghosh
We started the conversation about how you and I enjoy our independence. Yes. This country and the freedom we have in this country. And you are born in a country which are defined by all definition, the most powerful democracy in the world. It just a fact, because of many reasons.
00:33:46:14 - 00:34:25:11
Neil Ghosh
I was born in a country which by definition is the most the largest democracy in the world because of the population. Yeah, small. Two of us got lucky. Very lucky. You talk about gratitude because not every country is like that. And any day I will take this country than any other country. Right. So what does that mean? So I some time, one of the things I keep saying democracy is messy, it is slow, it is imperfect, but it is the only form of governance that allows Wilk allows Neil to have a voice that works for people like you and I, who are ordinary people.
00:34:25:12 - 00:34:53:06
Neil Ghosh
So but democracy also needs coming back to what you said, not just patience, perseverance. It requires participation. And that brings back to your conversation on engaged citizenship, democracy requires patience, perseverance, and with capital P participation. So I wanted to circle that back to you. How important it is. It's not about doing good. It's my own selfish reason. I want to maintain my democracy.
00:34:53:10 - 00:34:56:17
Neil Ghosh
I want to make sure I love my fellow citizen for a very selfish reason.
00:34:56:19 - 00:35:01:17
Wilk Wilkinson
Patience, persistence and participation I love it, I love it, and,
00:35:01:17 - 00:35:09:15
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah. So thank you so much, Neil. I thank you for participating in the DeRay Day podcast. Thank you for,
00:35:09:15 - 00:35:12:15
Wilk Wilkinson
becoming a new participant in the Braver Angels,
00:35:12:15 - 00:35:13:19
Wilk Wilkinson
movement. The,
00:35:13:19 - 00:35:21:13
Wilk Wilkinson
the Braver Angels incredible organization, the largest grassroots cross Partizan organization working towards bridging the divide,
00:35:21:13 - 00:35:24:23
Wilk Wilkinson
bridging our political divides, working towards civic renewal.
00:35:25:01 - 00:35:25:12
Wilk Wilkinson
So,
00:35:25:12 - 00:35:29:01
Wilk Wilkinson
yeah, finding out today in, in our conversation that you've,
00:35:29:01 - 00:35:43:20
Wilk Wilkinson
you signed up as a, as a member of Braver Angels. That is just a a real bonus. Neil. Tell the listeners where they can find out more about you and your book. Do more good, inspiring lessons from extraordinary people.
00:35:43:22 - 00:35:44:10
Neil Ghosh
It's,
00:35:44:10 - 00:35:49:06
Neil Ghosh
pretty much all major retailers, from Amazon to Walmart to Target, but,
00:35:49:06 - 00:35:50:13
Neil Ghosh
they can also go to my,
00:35:50:13 - 00:35:57:10
Neil Ghosh
website, which is my name really NeilGhosh.org Or they can Google it,
00:35:57:10 - 00:35:58:17
Neil Ghosh
Neil. Ghosh. Do more good.
00:35:58:17 - 00:36:01:03
Neil Ghosh
They should be able to find it
00:36:01:05 - 00:36:04:17
Wilk Wilkinson
Beautiful.. All that will be in the show notes for our listeners. And,
00:36:04:17 - 00:36:05:23
Wilk Wilkinson
Neil, I look forward to,
00:36:05:23 - 00:36:10:03
Wilk Wilkinson
to more conversations in the future, I really do. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.
00:36:10:05 - 00:36:11:02
Neil Ghosh
Thank you, thank you.
00:36:11:02 - 00:36:40:22
Wilk Wilkinson
Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate The Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together, so please take a moment to visit Braver angels.org and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divides.
00:36:41:00 - 00:37:04:06
Wilk Wilkinson
This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friends, I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
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