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DTH Episode 264 with Hunter Ash & Julian Adorney
In this thought-provoking episode of Derate The Hate, I’m joined by two powerful voices with unique, and sometimes conflicting, views on the political and cultural challenges of our time.
🧩 Hunter Ash, speaking from a dissident-right perspective, discusses the cultural and institutional backlash many perceive against white Americans and how the growing fear of cancel culture, DEI overreach, and race-based identity politics is shaping a new political reality.
🕊️ Julian Adorney, a brilliant writer and peace builder, brings a powerful counterpoint. In his widely shared piece for Reality’s Last Stand, “Why Christians Must Reject the Woke Right’s Answer to Racism,” Julian outlines a principled rejection of race-based resentment from any side—and calls for a return to individual dignity, moral clarity, and universal justice.
Together, we explore:
âś… What happens when identity politics jumps the aisle
âś… How history warns against repeating group-based division
âś… The critical difference between legal equality and equality of outcomes
âś… Why even defensive identity politics can spiral into dangerous territory
âś… What it takes to stay grounded in truth, humility, and productive discourse
If you’ve listened to previous episodes with or guest hosted by Julian Adorney, you know he brings a deep commitment to depolarization and ethical dialogue. I encourage you to revisit these earlier episodes for even more insight into his work:
🎧 How to Detox From Toxic Polarization
🎧 Is a Civil "Is God Real?" Conversation Possible?
Whether you lean left, right, or consider yourself politically homeless, this conversation is about bridging divides with understanding—not firebombing each other with rhetoric.
💬 What are your thoughts on identity politics and the rise of the “woke right”? Drop me a message or leave a comment—I want to hear from YOU.
📢 Help amplify civil conversations. Share this episode with a friend who cares about honest dialogue, free speech, and making the world a better place through better conversations.
What have you done today to make your life a better life? What have you done today to make the world a better place? The world is a better place if we are better people. That begins with each of us as individuals. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you’ve got. Make each and every day the day that you want it to be!
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I look forward to hearing from you!
Transcript is AI Generated and may have errors...
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:43:15
Wilk Wilkinson
Welcome back, my friends, to the Derate the Hate podcast. I am your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage, calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by FOG. And those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. Each week I'm sharing stories from my path and using the power of conversation and collaboration with my many great guests.
00:00:43:17 - 00:01:07:23
Wilk Wilkinson
Together, we chart a course toward understanding, bridging divides and fostering a community where wisdom prevails over discord. Friends, it really is about bettering the world. One attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can derate the hate. The only good thing about a bad attitude is we have the ability as individuals to change it.
00:01:08:01 - 00:01:31:03
Wilk Wilkinson
For me, it starts with gratitude and personal accountability. I am so incredibly grateful that you have taken the time to join me for another powerful DTH episode. Please remember to subscribe and share the DTH podcast with your network of friends. If you would like to support the show, check out the Support Us page on the Derate the Hate website. With that, my friends, let's get to it.
00:01:31:03 - 00:01:50:01
Wilk Wilkinson
Look, I'm proud knowing here at DTH we can tackle the toughest issues we face as a society without losing our humanity in the process. Today's conversation might just be one of the most complex and timely that we've had yet. I'm joined by two thought provoking guests who are no strangers
00:01:50:01 - 00:01:55:03
Wilk Wilkinson
to controversial discourse. Julian Adorney and Hunter ash.
00:01:55:05 - 00:02:19:03
Wilk Wilkinson
Julian is a writer, a speaker, and one of the most thoughtful voices in the deep polarization space today. He's done incredible work bridging divides and helping people see through the noise of tribal politics. He recently wrote a powerful piece for Reality's Last Stand, titled Why Christians Must Reject the Woke Right's Answer to Racism. And I highly recommend you check it out.
00:02:19:05 - 00:02:26:05
Wilk Wilkinson
Julian challenges us to move beyond both the woke left and the so-called dissident or woke right,
00:02:26:05 - 00:02:41:16
Wilk Wilkinson
and instead focus on justice rooted in human dignity, empathy, and the true message of unity. On the other side of this conversation is Hunter Ashe, a rising voice from within what some describe as the dissident right.
00:02:41:18 - 00:03:14:05
Wilk Wilkinson
Hunter brings a raw and unfiltered insight into the fears and frustrations that many people feel in today's social climate. He's not afraid to challenge DEI orthodoxy, critical race theory, or the way identity politics plays out in both policy and culture. Whether you agree or disagree with Hunter, his perspectives represent a growing movement of people who feel politically homeless, concerned about real issues but unsure where to turn.
00:03:14:07 - 00:03:45:21
Wilk Wilkinson
Together, we're diving deep into the tensions between group identity and individual dignity, legal equality versus equality of outcomes, and how fear on all sides can drive people towards dangerous extremes. This episode isn't about picking a side. It's about asking better questions. Listening with true intent and finding our way forward even when the conversation is uncomfortable. Let's get into it with Julian Adorney and Hunter Ash.
00:03:45:23 - 00:03:49:00
Wilk Wilkinson
Here we go.
00:03:49:02 - 00:03:50:02
Wilk Wilkinson
Discuss.
00:03:50:02 - 00:03:58:10
Wilk Wilkinson
All right. Julian Adorney and Hunter Ash, thank you for joining me on the Derate the Hate podcast. I do appreciate your time today. This
00:03:58:10 - 00:04:06:01
Wilk Wilkinson
is exciting. This is a little bit different than the than a lot of the conversations that I have here on the Derate the Hate podcast, but,
00:04:06:01 - 00:04:09:00
Wilk Wilkinson
for the listeners, obviously, many of you know,
00:04:09:00 - 00:04:09:21
Wilk Wilkinson
Julian Adorney,
00:04:09:21 - 00:04:15:16
Wilk Wilkinson
he's been on the podcast a number of times and he's actually guest hosted the podcast, a number of times.
00:04:15:18 - 00:04:16:16
Wilk Wilkinson
And
00:04:16:16 - 00:04:23:06
Wilk Wilkinson
he recently came to me and said, hey, I've got this great idea for an episode for a conversation.
00:04:23:06 - 00:04:23:16
Wilk Wilkinson
There's
00:04:23:16 - 00:04:24:09
Wilk Wilkinson
this guy on,
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Wilk Wilkinson
Twitter or x x Twitter.
00:04:27:08 - 00:04:28:04
Wilk Wilkinson
Whatever.
00:04:28:04 - 00:04:35:07
Wilk Wilkinson
His name is Hunter ash. He's got some, some interesting insights when it comes to,
00:04:35:07 - 00:04:36:20
Wilk Wilkinson
the woke right.
00:04:36:20 - 00:04:44:22
Wilk Wilkinson
And white identity politics. And, and it's something that I wrote about recently and he's agreed to have a conversation. So I looked into that,
00:04:44:22 - 00:05:04:09
Wilk Wilkinson
because, quite honestly, the woke right and white identity politics, is not something that I've spent a lot of my mental energy on, but I'm, I'm excited to talk about it today because I think it is something in the time right now that we're in that has to be discussed.
00:05:04:11 - 00:05:11:19
Wilk Wilkinson
So thank you, fellas, I appreciate it. Hunter ash Julian Adorney we're going to have a fantastic conversation. Let's start off, Julian.
00:05:11:19 - 00:05:14:01
Wilk Wilkinson
Just say hello to the DTH listeners and then we'll,
00:05:14:01 - 00:05:16:04
Wilk Wilkinson
we'll move over here to Hunter.
00:05:16:06 - 00:05:20:15
Julian Adorney
Yeah. Thanks so much for having me on, Wilk. It's, always a pleasure.
00:05:20:17 - 00:05:26:04
Hunter Ash
Yeah, likewise. I think. Thank you so much. I am really looking forward to this. I think it'll be a productive.
00:05:26:06 - 00:05:30:17
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Going to be a productive conversation. And,
00:05:30:17 - 00:05:34:16
Wilk Wilkinson
again, grateful for the two of you taking the time to join me today.
00:05:34:16 - 00:05:37:08
Wilk Wilkinson
So let's let's start this off,
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Wilk Wilkinson
Julian, by,
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Wilk Wilkinson
we're going to first start to,
00:05:39:12 - 00:05:43:07
Wilk Wilkinson
start the conversation with, with us talking about,
00:05:43:07 - 00:05:47:04
Wilk Wilkinson
an article you recently wrote for Realities Last Stand.
00:05:47:06 - 00:05:52:19
Wilk Wilkinson
It says Why Christians must reject the woke right’s answer to racism. And,
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Wilk Wilkinson
immediately when I read that title,
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Wilk Wilkinson
I went to,
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Wilk Wilkinson
the idea of anti-racism,
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Wilk Wilkinson
because when I think about black anti-racism and people like Ibram X Kendi and Robin D'Angelo and, and things like that, I think that stands in contrast to a lot of what I see as productive in terms of fighting racism or working against and productively working against racism.
00:06:21:15 - 00:06:22:07
Wilk Wilkinson
So,
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Wilk Wilkinson
then I read the article, of course, and, and see that that, that you
00:06:26:18 - 00:06:30:09
Wilk Wilkinson
had quoted Hunter's X post,
00:06:30:09 - 00:06:33:05
Wilk Wilkinson
on there. And I just want to,
00:06:33:05 - 00:06:36:23
Wilk Wilkinson
read that real quick for the listeners because,
00:06:36:23 - 00:06:43:22
Wilk Wilkinson
that gives great context to where our conversation is going to go today. So I'm going to read this real quick,
00:06:43:22 - 00:06:46:04
Wilk Wilkinson
from, from Hunter Ash.
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Wilk Wilkinson
On X says “my radical far right stance on race is equal treatment. Ibrahm Kendi should be socially vilified as socially vilified as David Duke, probably more so. I don't think David Duke ever claimed that black people were aliens. Black Lives Matter and White Lives Matter should be treated the same. A scholarship for only minority students should have the same legal standing as a scholarship for only white students.
00:07:16:22 - 00:07:25:00
Wilk Wilkinson
The problem is that we that this never happens. Politics is a negotiation. You typically get an outcome,
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Wilk Wilkinson
about halfway between one side or,
00:07:27:18 - 00:07:42:13
Wilk Wilkinson
halfway between what one side wants and what the other side wants. If white people advocate for neutrality, while other groups advocate for special privileges, we'll end up with moderate special privileges for them. No thank you.
00:07:42:15 - 00:07:46:22
Wilk Wilkinson
I will not tolerate the seething resentment against whites,
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Wilk Wilkinson
broadcast from every major institution. I will not tolerate moderate discrimination against my people. And it seems, both empirically and theoretically, that the only way to achieve equality is for us to actively advocate for our own group interests, such that the final negotiated outcome is something close to equality.” Okay, so,
00:08:12:18 - 00:08:14:20
Wilk Wilkinson
was that a fair quote?
00:08:14:22 - 00:08:25:11
Wilk Wilkinson
Hunter I mean, I'm assuming it is. I think I read it, I tried to read it word for word. Don't have my glasses on today, but I tried to read it word for word. Fair representation of what you wrote on X.
00:08:25:12 - 00:08:27:13
Hunter Ash
Yeah, yeah, word for word.
00:08:27:15 - 00:08:32:09
Wilk Wilkinson
All right. Perfect. So. So, Julian, take me into,
00:08:32:09 - 00:08:38:11
Wilk Wilkinson
where you're at on this because as I read this, there's some things I agree with, some things I don't,
00:08:38:11 - 00:08:43:14
Wilk Wilkinson
and I want to know where you are at when you read this the first time. And what,
00:08:43:14 - 00:08:45:06
Wilk Wilkinson
what kind of led you to this?
00:08:45:06 - 00:08:57:05
Wilk Wilkinson
As. I mean, I know, and many of the listeners will know that that a lot of what you write about has been about DEI and things such as that and, and the poisons that that
00:08:57:05 - 00:08:59:17
Wilk Wilkinson
the DEI has brought to society.
00:08:59:17 - 00:09:06:20
Wilk Wilkinson
So, so let's let's start with what did you think when you first read this from Hunter?
00:09:06:22 - 00:09:08:03
Julian Adorney
Yeah, it's a really good question.
00:09:08:03 - 00:09:09:04
Julian Adorney
So kind of like you said,
00:09:09:04 - 00:09:17:17
Julian Adorney
I have spent a few years now criticizing the DEI industry critical race theory, critical theory, queer theory, things like that.
00:09:17:17 - 00:09:20:11
Julian Adorney
I have criticized Robin D'Angelo.
00:09:20:11 - 00:09:31:08
Julian Adorney
Ibrahm Kendi, all those folks for more or less the same reason, which is that I don't think our society gets better when we kind of slice and dice by racial divisions or by bi racial categories.
00:09:31:10 - 00:09:52:18
Julian Adorney
I think that even more that's really well intentioned. It can it runs the, the risk, the side effect of reifying barriers rather than taking them down. And so when I read Hunter's thing Hunter, I saw your thing. I thought we agree almost completely on ends. We agree. I mean, I absolutely advocate for race and for race equality basically.
00:09:52:18 - 00:09:56:11
Julian Adorney
And so we agree pretty much completely as far as that goes.
00:09:56:11 - 00:10:16:08
Julian Adorney
Where we disagree is on means. And I thought, you know, if I, I've been criticizing Kendi and D'Angelo and all these folks for years saying that if, if we lean into black affinity groups, Hispanic affinity groups, graduations segregated by skin color, the net effect is not going to be good for society.
00:10:16:08 - 00:10:30:22
Julian Adorney
It's going to be very bad. It's going to kind of reify these visions. And so when I saw you advocating for white identity politics, I thought, well, I can really see where he's coming from because it seems sort of weird that you can have identity politics for every group except for white people, you know, and I'm
00:10:30:22 - 00:10:36:06
Julian Adorney
I've been very leery of identity politics for white people because we have a history of that in the country that I think is been toxic.
00:10:36:06 - 00:10:40:19
Julian Adorney
But I'm, I'm with help, actually one of one of my African-American friends.
00:10:40:19 - 00:10:41:16
Julian Adorney
That that Wilk knows,
00:10:41:16 - 00:10:44:15
Julian Adorney
I've been sort of work my way around that concept.
00:10:44:15 - 00:10:53:08
Julian Adorney
But but all the same, I saw you talked about means, and I thought, I don't think this is going to get us there. I don't think it's going to get us to true neutrality or true equality.
00:10:53:08 - 00:10:57:13
Julian Adorney
I think it's going to get us deeper into kind of warring tribes.
00:10:57:15 - 00:10:59:08
Wilk Wilkinson
Very good. And Hunter,
00:10:59:08 - 00:10:59:20
Wilk Wilkinson
then,
00:10:59:20 - 00:11:01:16
Wilk Wilkinson
to to kind of go,
00:11:01:16 - 00:11:06:00
Wilk Wilkinson
to what Julian was saying and then and then more so even actually,
00:11:06:00 - 00:11:16:19
Wilk Wilkinson
kind of explaining where you were when you wrote this piece and, and what the, the genesis of that kind of thought process has been for you.
00:11:16:21 - 00:11:19:16
Hunter Ash
Yeah. So, you know, I was,
00:11:19:16 - 00:11:27:10
Hunter Ash
I was a progressive for most of my life until a few years ago. So I feel like I understand, you know, sort of that headspace and where they're where,
00:11:27:10 - 00:11:33:13
Hunter Ash
where they're coming from. You know, I've also been, you know, probably, you know, more or less where, where you're at. Julian. Right.
00:11:33:13 - 00:11:36:22
Hunter Ash
Which is something closer to the classical liberal position.
00:11:36:22 - 00:11:40:02
Hunter Ash
A few things that have made me just,
00:11:40:02 - 00:11:44:06
Hunter Ash
pessimistic that the strategy could really work.
00:11:44:06 - 00:12:04:05
Hunter Ash
Are essentially, you know, basically the, the durability of nonwhite identity politics. You know, I feel like we've sort of been trying the unilateral disarmament thing for decades at this point. Right. And it's essentially like, I feel like in game theory terms, white people have been, you know, in aggregate.
00:12:04:05 - 00:12:10:12
Hunter Ash
Right? Obviously, I'm not talking about, you know, there are obviously people who have, you know, had, you know, very strong,
00:12:10:12 - 00:12:25:00
Hunter Ash
racial prejudices, white people who have, you know, across this time period. But in aggregate and in terms of our sort of political action, I feel like we've been like the always cooperate strategy in game theory, right? Where no matter, you know, what, we're cooperation is essentially being colorblind.
00:12:25:00 - 00:12:39:16
Hunter Ash
Right. And, you know, we we do that and we do that and we do that. And, you know, during my lifetime and it seems like for, you know, a few decades before I was born, it seems like things are only moving in the wrong direction. Right? Like we're only seeing more and more,
00:12:39:16 - 00:12:42:23
Hunter Ash
anti-white discrimination, anti-white rhetoric, you know,
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Hunter Ash
history curricula across the country are just, you know, they seem designed to situate Europeans as sort of the root evil of the entire world, right.
00:12:53:03 - 00:13:15:23
Hunter Ash
So my position is essentially just that, like this strategy has not been working. Right. It seems like this has been like the mainstream institutional view. I it's not that I don't think it's been, you know, I don't think that like real liberalism has never been tried or something. Right? I think this was the consensus position of, of both major political parties in the US for decades and decades.
00:13:15:23 - 00:13:30:03
Hunter Ash
And things have only been moving in the wrong direction. So I think we need a completely different approach. And then, you know, maybe something we could get into later is that I even question that there was ever really a sort of golden age or, you know, like,
00:13:30:03 - 00:13:35:02
Hunter Ash
any, any time in our history where we got this right, right where we really hit the nail on the head.
00:13:35:02 - 00:13:39:13
Hunter Ash
You know, I think things started to tip in the wrong direction.
00:13:39:13 - 00:13:52:09
Hunter Ash
Almost immediately after the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. So maybe that's something we can get into. But yeah, the basic point is just if it's not working, you have to do something else, right? You know, we don't, you know, like what? What levers do you do?
00:13:52:09 - 00:14:11:07
Hunter Ash
Any of us here or, you know, anyone who holds these positions really have to get nonwhite groups to stop being groupish, to stop being tribal. And like, given that we can't do that, then us being sort of the only group that in aggregate does this is a recipe for us to be permanently disadvantaged, which is not acceptable to me.
00:14:11:08 - 00:14:22:18
Hunter Ash
Right? That would apply that, you know, I'm not that worried about how much it applies to me. Right? I've sort of built my own platform and I'm I'm largely insulated from, you know, these kinds of institutional pressures. But this would apply to, you know,
00:14:22:18 - 00:14:26:00
Hunter Ash
my, my future kids. Right. And that's, that's simply not acceptable to me. Right?
00:14:26:00 - 00:14:29:00
Hunter Ash
I'm not willing to nobly lose this fight,
00:14:29:00 - 00:14:33:19
Hunter Ash
just because there there are certain tactics that we, we deem too unsavory,
00:14:33:19 - 00:14:35:14
Hunter Ash
that might win it. Yeah.
00:14:35:16 - 00:14:37:23
Wilk Wilkinson
So let me let me ask you this question.
00:14:37:23 - 00:14:38:11
Wilk Wilkinson
Hunter,
00:14:38:11 - 00:14:44:00
Wilk Wilkinson
you know, as we as we move further into this, this conversation, then,
00:14:44:00 - 00:14:49:02
Wilk Wilkinson
the one question that I would ask is,
00:14:49:02 - 00:14:52:02
Wilk Wilkinson
I often say that that we,
00:14:52:02 - 00:14:56:16
Wilk Wilkinson
we can't defeat hate with hate and we can't defeat,
00:14:56:16 - 00:14:57:07
Wilk Wilkinson
we can't do it.
00:14:57:09 - 00:15:04:16
Wilk Wilkinson
I would say we can't defeat identity politics with identity politics. I think identity politics is one of the the,
00:15:04:16 - 00:15:12:17
Wilk Wilkinson
the greatest degradations of society, that we've we've had, I think it's a horrible thing.
00:15:12:17 - 00:15:21:02
Wilk Wilkinson
Just the same way I, I don't believe we can defeat hate with hate. I don't believe we can defeat identity politics with identity politics.
00:15:21:04 - 00:15:32:04
Wilk Wilkinson
So my question for you is, and then then the whole woke thing, which I think woke is probably one of the most overused words in modern times.
00:15:32:04 - 00:15:33:06
Wilk Wilkinson
What do you think?
00:15:33:06 - 00:15:48:19
Wilk Wilkinson
when we have things like this or or mindsets like this define as woke, right? And white identity politics, is that something that that that sparks anything within you?
00:15:49:01 - 00:16:00:21
Wilk Wilkinson
Is it a fair representation? And then I want to move over and basically ask the same questions for, for Julian. And so go ahead and address that quick Hunter. And then we'll, we'll move over to to Julian on that.
00:16:00:23 - 00:16:18:03
Hunter Ash
Sure. So the first thing I just want to say is that like I don't think that this general sort of analogical structure always holds right. Because you could also say like, you can't beat guns with guns. It's like you absolutely can. And in fact, there's pretty much nothing else that will write like, or you know, another example might be nuclear deterrence.
00:16:18:05 - 00:16:26:10
Hunter Ash
Right. So, you know, no country that has nuclear weapons has suffered a significant land invasion since they got them right.
00:16:26:10 - 00:16:37:08
Hunter Ash
And in fact, you know, Ukraine used to have them and gave them up. And, you know, here they are. So I don't think that, you know, you can imagine a country saying, like, I'm generally against nuclear weapons, right?
00:16:37:08 - 00:16:49:20
Hunter Ash
These are these are dangerous for humanity. And like, I won't, I refuse, I nobly refuse to participate in their proliferation. Right. That country is going to get steamrolled by countries that do have nuclear weapons, whereas, you know, the other ones that do,
00:16:49:20 - 00:16:56:03
Hunter Ash
are essentially immune, right? You can't seriously threaten a country that has nuclear weapons, even if they have almost no other capability.
00:16:56:03 - 00:17:12:04
Hunter Ash
I mean, look at North Korea, right? We would absolutely go over and knock, knock that government over if we could. But we can't. And it's exclusively because they have nuclear weapons, right. As far as white identity politics go, I do want to clarify my position, because it's probably very different from a lot of people in the the dissident.
00:17:12:04 - 00:17:12:11
Hunter Ash
Right.
00:17:12:11 - 00:17:27:07
Hunter Ash
A lot of people feel sort of an inherent affinity for white identity politics. Right? It's an end in and of itself. Right? They're just like, this is how they, you know, they want an ethno state in the United States, right? This is sort of their organizing principle for all their politics. And that's not really where I'm coming from.
00:17:27:07 - 00:17:51:05
Hunter Ash
And nor am I advocating for like, you know, affirmative action for, for white people or something. Right. My position is rather that we need to be able to object to certain policies, not on the grounds of some abstract, high minded ideal, but on the grounds that these are bad for us. Right? These will be bad for me, and they're bad for my kids, because I see anything else as essentially just, time wasting rabbit hole.
00:17:51:05 - 00:18:05:03
Hunter Ash
Right? So you can say like, no, you know, I'm opposed to, you know, any discrimination against anybody on the grounds of justice, right? And then they can say like, well, you know, what about to compensate for past discrimination, right? It's like, well, no, it has to be applied to, you know, people who were alive today. It's like, oh, okay.
00:18:05:03 - 00:18:20:03
Hunter Ash
So like if you're a grandpa stole everything from my grandpa, then like, that doesn't have any, you know, and that's just a bottomless rabbit hole. And it also doesn't reflect the real reasons why I oppose it. Right? I simply oppose it because it would disadvantage me. It would disadvantage a lot of people I care about, and it'll disadvantage my future kids.
00:18:20:08 - 00:18:23:18
Hunter Ash
So that's what I mean when I say, you know, we need to,
00:18:23:18 - 00:18:36:21
Hunter Ash
embrace a certain form of white identity. Politics is white people need to be able to say, I am against this because it is anti-white, not just because I'm, you know, sort of generically in favor of neutrality. Right? You know, you are threatening me as a group.
00:18:36:22 - 00:18:56:22
Hunter Ash
And in terms of like, you know, the the dividing people into categories or whatever, that's another thing we can't just unilaterally opt out of. Right? Like if we are sort of seen as white and targeted as white by, you know, people like you know, people like Kendi, you know, people in the the woke left, then it makes sense for us to defend ourselves as such.
00:18:56:22 - 00:19:15:18
Hunter Ash
Right? Almost like, you know, you group up people for a class action lawsuit or something, like, you know, if somebody, you know, proposed a policy of expropriating everybody named Julian Grant, and they just want to take all your money and keep it for themselves, right. It would be a good strategy for you to team up with all the other Julian to oppose this.
00:19:15:18 - 00:19:32:20
Hunter Ash
Right, because you have more power as a group. Right. Like these are people you don't know. You don't you don't feel like you necessarily have anything in common with them. But what you do have in common is that you are under attack from, you know, a specific direction because of this shared trait. And you know, under that circumstance, group defense makes sense.
00:19:32:20 - 00:19:37:21
Hunter Ash
So I would say that I support what I would call defensive white identity politics.
00:19:37:23 - 00:19:38:16
Wilk Wilkinson
Fair enough.
00:19:38:16 - 00:19:41:09
Wilk Wilkinson
I appreciate the explanation. So, Julian, let's,
00:19:41:09 - 00:19:42:09
Wilk Wilkinson
let's tackle that.
00:19:42:09 - 00:19:44:13
Wilk Wilkinson
From from your perspective then,
00:19:44:13 - 00:19:46:17
Wilk Wilkinson
you know, with, with regard to,
00:19:46:17 - 00:19:47:09
Wilk Wilkinson
what does
00:19:47:09 - 00:19:50:14
Wilk Wilkinson
the woke, right, white identity politics,
00:19:50:14 - 00:19:51:17
Wilk Wilkinson
I guess,
00:19:51:17 - 00:19:52:16
Wilk Wilkinson
grouping,
00:19:52:16 - 00:19:54:23
Wilk Wilkinson
mean for you and,
00:19:54:23 - 00:19:56:04
Wilk Wilkinson
and then and then let's,
00:19:56:04 - 00:19:57:23
Wilk Wilkinson
let's kind of go into,
00:19:57:23 - 00:19:59:05
Wilk Wilkinson
to to what Hunter
00:19:59:05 - 00:20:02:05
Wilk Wilkinson
had to say there in that explanation.
00:20:02:07 - 00:20:03:03
Julian Adorney
Yeah.
00:20:03:03 - 00:20:08:07
Julian Adorney
So first off, I hear you talking about the fear of your kids, you know, being discriminated against, stuff like that.
00:20:08:07 - 00:20:11:11
Julian Adorney
And absolutely just want to. I could actually share that fear.
00:20:11:11 - 00:20:13:11
Julian Adorney
Not that my kids will be jumping against because they're white.
00:20:13:11 - 00:20:15:01
Julian Adorney
actually don't know if my kids will be white.
00:20:15:01 - 00:20:17:04
Julian Adorney
We may adopt from somewhere.
00:20:17:06 - 00:20:28:17
Julian Adorney
But for me, the fear comes from things like queer theory in schools or things like gender transitioning in schools. It's one of the reasons I'm a columnist for Reality’s Last stand is one of the reasons that I'm, you know, getting into writing about,
00:20:28:17 - 00:20:36:05
Julian Adorney
about queer theory and about social transitioning, stuff like that. As I see the stuff in schools, I think I want to protect my future kids from that.
00:20:36:07 - 00:20:52:04
Julian Adorney
I just want to echo back because what I said, I, we kind of talked about this a little bit in the beginning of the book before the recording started, that I think a lot of folks hear wide in the politics and think, oh, like basket deplorables. Like, you must just be like, racist, whatever.
00:20:52:04 - 00:20:57:15
Julian Adorney
And I just want to echo that I hear your concern for your kids, and that's that's a concern we share.
00:20:57:17 - 00:21:02:07
Julian Adorney
If if, if for a different reason to still a very, very virtuous concern. I think.
00:21:02:08 - 00:21:05:03
Julian Adorney
Okay. So, so so where do I come from? On on the woke right.
00:21:05:03 - 00:21:11:06
Julian Adorney
Kind of two things. One is that, you know, if I've read MLK books or at least two of them,
00:21:11:06 - 00:21:13:21
Julian Adorney
you know, I've, I've read a fair amount of about the civil rights movement,
00:21:13:21 - 00:21:15:01
Julian Adorney
things like that. And
00:21:15:01 - 00:21:29:23
Julian Adorney
when I hear what any politics I'm concerned about going back to that, you know, I'm concerned about going back to a place where when you marry, like power and majority status with identity politics, I think you can go in some bad places.
00:21:30:01 - 00:21:41:06
Julian Adorney
Not the every manifestation of black it any politics or Hispanic hating politics in the US is healthy. But when you marry that with majority status, I think, I think it can it can be dangerous. You know, power corrupts sort of.
00:21:41:06 - 00:21:54:15
Julian Adorney
And so for me, partly I'm, I'm very leery of going back to that time of white citizens councils of the KKK, you know, of stuff like that, where the U.S. really, really had a, a, a race that was favored and races that were not favored.
00:21:54:15 - 00:21:57:14
Julian Adorney
And I very much don't think you want to go back there either.
00:21:57:14 - 00:21:59:15
Julian Adorney
But my, my concern is, you know,
00:21:59:15 - 00:22:02:05
Julian Adorney
getting there by accident, sort of,
00:22:02:05 - 00:22:06:16
Julian Adorney
I really, really want to stay away from that. That's sort of a an existential thing for me.
00:22:06:16 - 00:22:12:00
Julian Adorney
The second thing, though, that really motivated me on when it comes with any politics.
00:22:12:00 - 00:22:14:05
Julian Adorney
I spent a year in Kenya. I was there with my wife.
00:22:14:05 - 00:22:16:19
Julian Adorney
She was helping refugees. I was mostly just kind of supporting her,
00:22:16:19 - 00:22:20:11
Julian Adorney
work as a freelancer at that point. And we had this incredible life group,
00:22:20:11 - 00:22:30:14
Julian Adorney
and, and Nairobi, the city where we lived. It's funny because I, I was warned against going there by my friends in the CIA and stuff like that.
00:22:30:15 - 00:22:44:17
Julian Adorney
The city was dangerous. Whatever. I didn't see that at all. Like barely anything. What I saw was this incredibly cosmopolitan city. And so we had a life group. And then in that life group, we had friends from South Africa, actually white friends from South Africa.
00:22:44:17 - 00:22:48:06
Julian Adorney
We had friends from Nairobi. We had friends from,
00:22:48:06 - 00:22:50:10
Julian Adorney
Democratic Republic of the Congo.
00:22:50:15 - 00:22:54:15
Julian Adorney
We had friends from kind of all over Africa. We had friends from the Netherlands,
00:22:54:15 - 00:23:00:22
Julian Adorney
from the, Philippines, you know, from Texas, from the US. It was this incredibly cosmopolitan thing.
00:23:00:22 - 00:23:14:17
Julian Adorney
And all these different kind of ethnicities represented and, and none of us cared, you know, like, it wasn't that we were blind to it. We saw each other's backgrounds, but only a sense of like, wow, that's an interesting thing about you as a person, you know, like, oh, you came from DRC.
00:23:14:18 - 00:23:28:13
Julian Adorney
You have different experiences than I've had. That's really cool. Tell me about them, you know, or. Oh, you you moved here and you were dirt broke because Kenya is actually a wealthier country than the country you lived in. And so you spent all your savings coming here. That must giving you some really different experiences. Tell me about that.
00:23:28:13 - 00:23:29:01
Julian Adorney
You know,
00:23:29:01 - 00:23:40:13
Julian Adorney
and we had this incredibly cosmopolitan group where we sort of like, we saw each other's skin color as background, but we didn't really care. We just foreground our shared humanity. And it was this really incredible thing.
00:23:40:13 - 00:23:46:18
Julian Adorney
And so I came back to the U.S. and I thought, oh, that's actually incredibly possible. Like, what if we built that here?
00:23:46:18 - 00:23:49:22
Julian Adorney
You know, to the extent we don't have that, what if we what if we could build that here?
00:23:49:22 - 00:24:02:07
Julian Adorney
And my experience in Kenya is as small as it was, it was just a life group of like 20 or 30 people. And then I probably interact with, I mean, God, a few hundred other, other folks over the course of my time there that I had real conversations with.
00:24:02:09 - 00:24:09:05
Julian Adorney
As small as that experience was, it taught me when when we all let go at any politics, it can lead to some really cool things.
00:24:09:05 - 00:24:16:07
Wilk Wilkinson
Oh, I and so, so I hear, you know, very legitimate concerns on the part of both of you,
00:24:16:07 - 00:24:18:11
Wilk Wilkinson
when it comes to this and, and, and,
00:24:18:11 - 00:24:22:15
Wilk Wilkinson
and I will say definitively, I share,
00:24:22:15 - 00:24:31:21
Wilk Wilkinson
a lot of, of your concerns and I, I think there's a lot of common concerns here. Now, now, for me, one of my big concerns,
00:24:31:21 - 00:24:39:01
Wilk Wilkinson
in, in this and many things, whether it be identity politics or politics in general,
00:24:39:01 - 00:24:47:17
Wilk Wilkinson
especially here in the United States in recent years, is is anything that they promotes an us versus them?
00:24:47:19 - 00:24:56:15
Wilk Wilkinson
I mean, I understand what you're saying, Hunter, when you when you talk about, yes, we are naturally grouped as human beings and we are going to collectivize,
00:24:56:15 - 00:24:59:15
Wilk Wilkinson
as, as such to protect,
00:24:59:15 - 00:25:04:02
Wilk Wilkinson
our position on whatever it is based on whatever,
00:25:04:02 - 00:25:12:16
Wilk Wilkinson
characteristic, whether it be immutable or not, whatever that characteristic is, if we're being grouped by that, we are going to naturally,
00:25:12:16 - 00:25:16:17
Wilk Wilkinson
protect ourselves as a group when it comes to that thing.
00:25:16:19 - 00:25:39:12
Wilk Wilkinson
Right? And it is human nature for us to be fairly tribal. Right. That's been happening from the beginning of, of human beings. I think anything that we do as human beings, to promote and us versus them mentality and try to perpetuate that, I think is bothersome. That's one of my great fears, is anything that we do.
00:25:39:17 - 00:26:10:04
Wilk Wilkinson
Because as our friend at Braver Angels often says, those who are underrepresented in our life will be overrepresented in our minds and our imagination. And that's Monica Guzman. As we promote anything that we do that promoted us versus them, that separates us further. I think ends up causing more problems because those people then become overrepresented in our mind and our imagination, and they tend to not become overrepresented in a good way.
00:26:10:06 - 00:26:20:11
Wilk Wilkinson
So so Hunter, dive into that a little bit for me, would you? Because I understand exactly where you're coming from when it comes to,
00:26:20:11 - 00:26:30:17
Wilk Wilkinson
how we protect us as who we are in the US versus them. But do you think that there is part of that,
00:26:30:17 - 00:26:34:03
Wilk Wilkinson
that can be done in a better way? I mean, I know,
00:26:34:03 - 00:26:38:08
Wilk Wilkinson
you know, I know that that that Julian has written about,
00:26:38:08 - 00:26:39:02
Wilk Wilkinson
King,
00:26:39:02 - 00:26:43:03
Wilk Wilkinson
rejected the, the black supremacist rhetoric,
00:26:43:03 - 00:26:44:08
Wilk Wilkinson
in his work,
00:26:44:08 - 00:26:46:10
Wilk Wilkinson
for civil rights and things like that.
00:26:46:14 - 00:27:04:00
Wilk Wilkinson
I think that's an important part of this equation. So talk to me a little bit about that. When it comes to the protecting of ourselves. And how can we do that from your perspective? How could we do that in a way that does not further enhance the US versus them?
00:27:04:02 - 00:27:22:17
Hunter Ash
Yeah, sure. I mean, so I think one thing that I should definitely clarify is that what I'm talking about in these situations is policy advocacy, right? And the way that this is done. Right. And I am not talking about interpersonal animosity. Right. I'm not saying that you should hate your neighbor. I'm talking about essentially,
00:27:22:17 - 00:27:29:11
Hunter Ash
political grouping and messaging strategies to to fight policy outcomes that are that are bad for us.
00:27:29:11 - 00:27:32:17
Hunter Ash
Right. And the fact is that,
00:27:32:17 - 00:27:34:11
Hunter Ash
just us being as,
00:27:34:11 - 00:27:43:21
Hunter Ash
kind and open and, you know, sort of loving and interested in other perspectives as we can, which I, I support. I think we should do that. You know, I have I have definitely been enriched,
00:27:43:21 - 00:27:52:00
Hunter Ash
by friendships with, you know, people from different backgrounds, people from all over the world and, you know, I certainly wouldn't trade those experiences away.
00:27:52:02 - 00:27:56:19
Hunter Ash
None of that actually protects us. Right? Like, none of it feels good. Right. It's very
00:27:56:19 - 00:28:06:17
Hunter Ash
Cheering right. It sounds like the right thing to do, but it's simply does not have the impact on policy that we need it to have. Right. And again this sort of gets back to the,
00:28:06:17 - 00:28:22:17
Hunter Ash
the, you know, in a sort of abstractly laudable but ultimately suicidal tendency to lose nobly right that like, as long as I was doing the right thing, it doesn't matter that, you know, everything went the other way and we lost.
00:28:22:17 - 00:28:46:18
Hunter Ash
Right. And that that's that's just not how I think about things. Right? So no, I'm certainly not trying to start to stir people up against their neighbors. Right. I'm not trying to to break up friend groups. Right. I'm not trying to, you know, oppose interracial marriage or you know, any of these things. I'm simply asking people to recognize that whether you want to perceive white people as a group or not, we are largely perceived that way by other people.
00:28:46:18 - 00:28:51:01
Hunter Ash
Right. You know, you can see this in, in polling data, right? You know, something like,
00:28:51:01 - 00:28:52:21
Hunter Ash
77% of,
00:28:52:21 - 00:29:04:22
Hunter Ash
black Americans want reparations for slavery, right? Which would disproportionately come out of, you know, the taxes that we pay, which means it's either, you know, coming out of my pocket and raise taxes or via inflation, you know, through through money printing.
00:29:04:22 - 00:29:21:23
Hunter Ash
Right. So so that means that whenever that passes, right, however, those, you know, however warm we all are to each other, whether we all go to the same churches. Right. Those people just voted to take my money. Right. And in my view that's an act of hostility. So, you know, we are targeted in this way and we can't simply choose not to be right.
00:29:21:23 - 00:29:43:23
Hunter Ash
We can choose not to see ourselves that way. But if other people see us that way, that's that's not much of a defense. Right. So like imagine during the, you know, the the Rwandan genocide, right. When the, the Hutus where slaughtering the Tutsis right now you can obviously say this never would have happened if you know, neither of these groups saw themselves as these these separate tribes in the first place.
00:29:43:23 - 00:29:45:20
Hunter Ash
Right? And that's, you know, sort of,
00:29:45:20 - 00:29:57:13
Hunter Ash
like tautological. True. If they couldn't even recognize the differences in this, this couldn't have happened. Right? But once it's happening, right, it would be madness for the Tutsis to say like, well, I'm not going to react any differently or,
00:29:57:13 - 00:29:59:09
Hunter Ash
be any more suspicious of,
00:29:59:09 - 00:30:04:09
Hunter Ash
a Hutu person at this moment in time than I am of a Tutsi, because that would be identity politics, right?
00:30:04:11 - 00:30:25:12
Hunter Ash
I'm not going to preferentially group up with Tutsis for defense, because that would be identity politics, right? No, that would be madness. Right. And when the scenario gets extreme enough, we can all recognize that that group identity is necessary. Right? You know, you could say the same thing for for Jews during the Holocaust, right? Obviously, I'm not saying where anything where anywhere close to that point, but I would like to make sure that we don't get there.
00:30:25:12 - 00:30:39:03
Hunter Ash
Right. And like this, you know, if you can see it in principle in those situations, then I think you can you can sort of understand what I'm getting at, right? Is that at a certain point, you don't have a choice as to whether you're part of a group or not.
00:30:39:05 - 00:30:42:21
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah, no. And that's fair. I think that's absolutely fair. Julian.
00:30:42:22 - 00:30:44:17
Wilk Wilkinson
I think Hunter makes a number of,
00:30:44:17 - 00:30:47:19
Wilk Wilkinson
of really good points there, and, and,
00:30:47:19 - 00:30:49:02
Wilk Wilkinson
I think,
00:30:49:02 - 00:30:53:17
Wilk Wilkinson
well, Julian, let's let's get your reaction to, to what Hunter was saying there.
00:30:53:19 - 00:30:59:20
Wilk Wilkinson
And then we'll kind of, kind of go around the horn. I just see, I mean, I see a lot of common ground here.
00:30:59:20 - 00:31:04:16
Wilk Wilkinson
I see, you know, a lot of love for our fellow human beings here. But we'll get into that. So let's,
00:31:04:16 - 00:31:06:23
Wilk Wilkinson
let's go ahead and and get your reaction to,
00:31:06:23 - 00:31:07:23
Wilk Wilkinson
to what Hunter said there.
00:31:07:23 - 00:31:08:21
Wilk Wilkinson
Julian.
00:31:08:23 - 00:31:09:12
Julian Adorney
Yeah.
00:31:09:12 - 00:31:12:09
Julian Adorney
No, I definitely see where you're coming from.
00:31:12:09 - 00:31:19:02
Julian Adorney
And mostly I hear when you when you talk, I sort of hear a lot of fear, you know? And I don't mean that pejoratively.
00:31:19:02 - 00:31:30:01
Julian Adorney
Because I have been, I've spent decades in, like, very, very intense fear of of things, of things that were objectively very silly, which I don't think yours is, you know,
00:31:30:01 - 00:31:35:06
Julian Adorney
I just want to fight back, like I it seems like there's a lot of fear of, like, okay, what what what if things get worse?
00:31:35:06 - 00:31:36:03
Julian Adorney
What if stuff like that,
00:31:36:03 - 00:31:42:11
Julian Adorney
And I just want to ask, would you say that's an accurate reflection of your mindset, or am I missing something?
00:31:42:12 - 00:32:00:13
Hunter Ash
I mean, like in the United States, you know, I'm not particularly afraid of, you know, widespread violence or anything like that. Yeah. I mean, it already is the case that, like, you know, if current policies continue. Right. And despite the recent Supreme Court ruling. Right, which, which many universities seem to have decided to more or less largely ignore.
00:32:00:18 - 00:32:04:17
Hunter Ash
Right. My kids will be disadvantaged when applying for college. Right. There are all these,
00:32:04:17 - 00:32:12:18
Hunter Ash
loan programs that are only available to, to, you know, non-whites essentially. Right. They they don't say that. Right. They list a bunch, but they list all of the ones other than,
00:32:12:18 - 00:32:18:12
Hunter Ash
you know, white European, right. And like, so, so am I afraid in, like, a personal or bodily sense?
00:32:18:12 - 00:32:37:00
Hunter Ash
No. Right. Like what I'm concerned of the issue is just that, you know, I want the best for myself. I want the best for the people that come after me. I want the best for, you know, the probably the majority of my, my friends. And, you know, I just about all of my family who are white and, you know, I just will not,
00:32:37:00 - 00:32:40:06
Hunter Ash
I will not, you know, be silent.
00:32:40:06 - 00:33:02:06
Hunter Ash
Well, while they're disadvantaged in any way, you know, and I do think that, like, one thing that distinguishes, you know, and I'm not claiming to be, you know, to speak for the whole, you know, quote unquote, woke right or dissident right or anything. But I'm able to speak for myself. Right? What I'm seeking is legal equality, right? Ideally, I would want race just completely erased from the law.
00:33:02:06 - 00:33:08:07
Hunter Ash
Right? I don't think any terms that refer to race should be anywhere in any federal or state laws. Right.
00:33:08:07 - 00:33:24:18
Hunter Ash
I want equality before the law, whereas the left once equality of outcomes. Right. And their pursuit of that is the cause of all of the, the kinds of, of disadvantages and group based attacks that I'm trying to to push back against.
00:33:24:19 - 00:33:27:12
Julian Adorney
That makes sense. And one thing I want to reflect back to, I,
00:33:27:12 - 00:33:35:21
Julian Adorney
I see a lot of courage in, in, in your willing to speak up about this, you know, I mean, you're here under your name with your own face, which is is uncommon on X, honestly, across the spectrum.
00:33:35:21 - 00:33:44:07
Julian Adorney
And you're, you're, you're saying things that are sort of borderline political suicide in certain parts of the U.S, you know,
00:33:44:07 - 00:33:52:10
Julian Adorney
and yet you're here, you care deeply and you willing to put your name and your face to these beliefs and speak out and say, you know, you know, consider consequences be damned.
00:33:52:10 - 00:33:57:05
Julian Adorney
You know, this matters to me. It's matters to my kids. And I just I really I really admire that.
00:33:57:07 - 00:33:58:23
Hunter Ash
Thanks. Thanks very much. You know, I,
00:33:58:23 - 00:34:18:07
Hunter Ash
I decided I thought about, you know, whether I wanted to be, you know, under my real name on X or not. And ultimately, I decided that I would both, because I think it lends more credibility to what I'm saying, and also because it keeps me accountable. Right? I anytime I, I think about something, I'm going to say, you know, I need to make sure that I am comfortable with with this being,
00:34:18:07 - 00:34:20:03
Hunter Ash
being something that's, that's attached to me.
00:34:20:04 - 00:34:25:19
Hunter Ash
Right. And yeah, I, I stand by all of this and, you know, luckily, I'm, I'm primarily,
00:34:25:19 - 00:34:29:04
Hunter Ash
self-employed, so they can't really come after me.
00:34:29:06 - 00:34:43:05
Julian Adorney
That's incredibly valuable, honestly. I mean, we've lived through lots of the thing. We've lived through, like 4 or 5 years of cancel culture. I read them because I've been trying to get more of a handle on, on this whole movement, you know, and to and to kind of see beneath the headlines, stuff like that. And so I started following,
00:34:43:05 - 00:34:44:07
Julian Adorney
new right post.
00:34:44:07 - 00:34:47:21
Julian Adorney
Dudley, I'm going to butcher's last name. So,
00:34:47:21 - 00:34:49:10
Julian Adorney
Dudley New Neubert.
00:34:49:10 - 00:34:53:15
Julian Adorney
But one thing he says is that, you know, I'll probably get Dox at some point. I'll lose my cushy job.
00:34:53:15 - 00:35:01:19
Julian Adorney
And he's aware of that risk. You know, we live in a society where it's less bad now than it was, but you can still, in some cases, lose your job for the wrong political opinions.
00:35:01:19 - 00:35:03:05
Julian Adorney
And so yeah, again, just want to reflect back.
00:35:03:05 - 00:35:12:19
Julian Adorney
It's it's actually really cool to see you saying, hey, I'm. Yeah, it's hard to cancel someone who's, who's self-employed, but there's still that risk and you still want to speak up, you know, for the things you really care about. That's awesome.
00:35:12:19 - 00:35:20:01
Wilk Wilkinson
It's definitely harder to get fired, but it's not necessarily harder to get canceled. But it's it's definitely harder to get fired. I mean, the the,
00:35:20:01 - 00:35:25:10
Wilk Wilkinson
the corrective action process is a little bit different, right? But, no, you I.
00:35:25:10 - 00:35:25:19
Julian Adorney
Mean, you.
00:35:25:19 - 00:35:29:00
Wilk Wilkinson
Know. Yeah. I have to I have to echo what,
00:35:29:00 - 00:35:32:03
Wilk Wilkinson
what Julian's saying here. I think it is courageous and
00:35:32:03 - 00:35:34:04
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah, like I said, I'm seeing
00:35:34:04 - 00:35:35:16
Wilk Wilkinson
a lot of,
00:35:35:16 - 00:35:38:01
Wilk Wilkinson
a lot of courage here. A lot of goodwill.
00:35:38:01 - 00:35:41:13
Wilk Wilkinson
A lot of a lot of things that I agree with.
00:35:41:13 - 00:35:52:06
Wilk Wilkinson
In, in, in, in what you're saying and then, Julian, in what you're saying, I, like I said, I think this is a, this is a very complex topic.
00:35:52:08 - 00:35:53:21
Wilk Wilkinson
This is not,
00:35:53:21 - 00:36:09:00
Wilk Wilkinson
this is not something that that is without a lot of different nuances. Right. I mean, there's there's just so many different things. And I've talked about this so many times on this podcast that that no one group is a monolith.
00:36:09:00 - 00:36:14:05
Wilk Wilkinson
I mean, they're just they're just not I mean, I in modern politics, I know,
00:36:14:05 - 00:36:21:07
Wilk Wilkinson
especially federal politics, they try to make it seem as if things are a monolith and then and then people are banished.
00:36:21:07 - 00:36:22:09
Wilk Wilkinson
If they,
00:36:22:09 - 00:36:35:00
Wilk Wilkinson
if they if they don't toe the line. But the reality is, is everyday Americans like you, Hunter Ash, you, Julian Adorney, me, Wilk Wilkinson. Right. We we we are all, in some respect,
00:36:35:00 - 00:36:37:05
Wilk Wilkinson
involved in politics where
00:36:37:05 - 00:36:39:11
Wilk Wilkinson
we're figures that are known throughout,
00:36:39:11 - 00:36:40:23
Wilk Wilkinson
different circles.
00:36:40:23 - 00:36:43:22
Wilk Wilkinson
And then in a lot of the same circles,
00:36:43:22 - 00:36:55:22
Wilk Wilkinson
but none of the circles that I run in have one particular mindset and only one mindset, and, and and and that that mindset is without without nuances.
00:36:56:00 - 00:37:04:18
Wilk Wilkinson
Hunter. Do you have any any, I guess, any questions, you know, with regard to the to the article specifically from,
00:37:04:18 - 00:37:14:12
Wilk Wilkinson
from realities last stand that that Julian wrote? I want to give you an opportunity here real quick. As we do a little bit of a back and forth here at the at the end of our conversation.
00:37:14:14 - 00:37:16:18
Wilk Wilkinson
Did you have any any questions?
00:37:16:18 - 00:37:19:12
Wilk Wilkinson
for Julian and and I know that you would,
00:37:19:12 - 00:37:23:05
Wilk Wilkinson
I don't know where I saw it. I, it may have been in a post or,
00:37:23:05 - 00:37:28:00
Wilk Wilkinson
or maybe an email that we were exchanging earlier, but but but you had said that,
00:37:28:00 - 00:37:31:01
Wilk Wilkinson
the Julian's response to your,
00:37:31:01 - 00:37:32:04
Wilk Wilkinson
I guess, tweet there.
00:37:32:04 - 00:37:38:17
Wilk Wilkinson
Is that what is it? That's still what they call them, right? Even though it's on X now, it's still a tweet to post. It's just a post.
00:37:38:19 - 00:37:39:14
Hunter Ash
It doesn't matter.
00:37:39:14 - 00:37:59:16
Wilk Wilkinson
It doesn't it doesn't matter. Right. I mean, whatever it's called, it's called I still I still have a hard time trying to figure out what to call it. I screwed up all the time. But. But do you have anything to say to to Julian with regard to the to the article he wrote? Any questions for him, any any feedback on on that particular article?
00:37:59:18 - 00:38:04:14
Hunter Ash
Yeah. So I mean, honestly, most of what I would want to say would probably, you know, to take up,
00:38:04:14 - 00:38:20:08
Hunter Ash
an episode in and of itself. Right. So I have some issues with the, the characterization of, of, of the civil rights movement and the immediate aftermath of it. Right. So, you know, Martin Luther King, you know, rejected, like really aggressive black power movements.
00:38:20:08 - 00:38:22:01
Hunter Ash
But, you know, he did want,
00:38:22:01 - 00:38:23:05
Hunter Ash
just sort of, you know,
00:38:23:05 - 00:38:25:17
Hunter Ash
some sort of compensatory,
00:38:25:17 - 00:38:36:14
Hunter Ash
payments or subsidies for, for black Americans. Right? You know, so, you know, again, on for the, you know, on the same grounds that that people like Kendi want those kinds of things today. Right, which is to remedy past discrimination.
00:38:36:14 - 00:38:47:14
Hunter Ash
Right. So I really don't see that there was a moment when, you know, the the civil rights movement was completely clean of,
00:38:47:14 - 00:39:01:15
Hunter Ash
you know, sort of identitarian group advocacy. Right. And you can say that that you think that that was legitimate. Right. You can say that that we should do those, those transfer payments or whatever. But, you know, then you are putting yourself sort of on a, on a continuum with people like Kendi.
00:39:01:15 - 00:39:27:06
Hunter Ash
Right? Which is to say, people who believe that the only remedy for past discrimination is present discrimination. Right? So that was present in Martin Luther King Jr. S work. And also, you know, like I just I believe, you know, 6 or 7 years after the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, we got the Griggs v Duke Power decision, which immediately expanded the concept of of private nondiscrimination beyond all reasonable bounds with disparate impact doctrine.
00:39:27:06 - 00:39:29:05
Hunter Ash
So, you know, I'm not really expecting a,
00:39:29:05 - 00:39:34:03
Hunter Ash
you know, a detailed response on all that right now. I would understand, you know, if you want to take some time to look into it. So maybe,
00:39:34:03 - 00:39:35:01
Hunter Ash
consider this just,
00:39:35:01 - 00:39:40:19
Hunter Ash
you know, maybe something to think about or maybe a possible teaser for a later, later discussion you and I could have here.
00:39:40:20 - 00:39:41:05
Hunter Ash
Elsewhere.
00:39:41:05 - 00:39:41:13
Julian Adorney
Yeah.
00:39:41:13 - 00:39:42:14
Julian Adorney
Yeah, I'd love that.
00:39:42:14 - 00:39:45:03
Julian Adorney
And, yeah, I hadn't heard about the court case, so I'll definitely look into that.
00:39:45:03 - 00:39:58:10
Julian Adorney
When it comes to King. Yes, he he did advocate for a friend of affirmative action. I think a lot of my criticism of the Dei movement is they were good ideas for 60 years ago.
00:39:58:10 - 00:39:59:20
Julian Adorney
I mean, King talked about this.
00:39:59:20 - 00:40:20:09
Julian Adorney
He talked about things like implicit bias that that Robin D'Angelo talks about is just that that was much more true six years ago than it was now. He talks about things like how a lot of African-Americans had this sort of like internalized oppression, where they didn't think they were worthy, you know, of, of of kind of equal citizenship and and obviously, like D'Angelo, can you talk about that?
00:40:20:09 - 00:40:23:15
Julian Adorney
It's like it's a useful concept for 60 years ago.
00:40:23:15 - 00:40:31:16
Julian Adorney
It was it was very true back then. It's not probably not very true now. I think kind of the same thing with race based conviction. Where do I support it now? Not really.
00:40:31:16 - 00:40:37:12
Julian Adorney
I, I'm very much with Coleman Hughes where I support class based affirmative action. So I do think it, it sucks to grow up poor.
00:40:37:12 - 00:40:43:06
Julian Adorney
And I do think it's better to grow up wealthy. And it's good if we can have a society where where you you,
00:40:43:06 - 00:40:58:22
Julian Adorney
try to compensate for a little bit. In King's day, he was dealing with people who had themselves benefited immensely from the Jim Crow structure and people who had themselves suffered immensely under the Jim Crow structure.
00:40:58:22 - 00:41:02:10
Julian Adorney
And so at that point, I think it was probably a lot more acceptable.
00:41:02:10 - 00:41:06:10
Julian Adorney
I think it was at that point a better idea to advocate for AA.
00:41:06:10 - 00:41:12:20
Julian Adorney
Just because you were you would it would have been sort of taking from people who had very much gotten a leg up from these ideas,
00:41:12:20 - 00:41:18:23
Julian Adorney
to give to people who had very much not gotten a leg up, who had been kicked down, who had like an eighth grade education because the schools they were going to were crappy.
00:41:18:23 - 00:41:20:02
Julian Adorney
You know, things like that.
00:41:20:02 - 00:41:23:21
Julian Adorney
Yeah. I don't know if that answers, but part of your response,
00:41:23:21 - 00:41:38:08
Julian Adorney
in the yeah, it's all continuum with Kendi at one end, but I don't think the entire continuum is always bad. I think it's it's contextual. And now it's that these ideas are of of affirmative of, you know,
00:41:38:08 - 00:41:42:17
Julian Adorney
of reparations are 60, 60 years behind.
00:41:42:23 - 00:41:45:06
Julian Adorney
They're outdated, basically.
00:41:45:08 - 00:41:59:16
Hunter Ash
Yeah. I mean, that that doesn't, you know, sort of address the issue of this at least distinguishing between, you know, the the two positions or the support for, you know, one then or one now. So, you know, the thing that this would, you know, segue into if we had time, you know, very broad topics would be,
00:41:59:16 - 00:42:00:15
Hunter Ash
one.
00:42:00:19 - 00:42:08:06
Hunter Ash
Yes. I mean, I think it's, it was it was definitely the case that like Jim Crow laws and like, you know, obviously incontrovertibly slavery,
00:42:08:06 - 00:42:19:21
Hunter Ash
were highly, you know, damaging to the black American population. I would challenge the claim that they were significantly beneficial to the white population. Right. You know, so but, you know, so they either way they created a delta there.
00:42:19:21 - 00:42:39:06
Hunter Ash
Right. But, you know, I don't actually think that these things were particularly good for us. Right. And they challenge the idea that they're in any way sort of the foundation of America's wealth. Right? I think that in fact, you know, it deepens the criticism of slavery to say that in addition to being, you know, a humanitarian disaster, it's also an economically very inefficient system.
00:42:39:11 - 00:42:42:10
Hunter Ash
And the South probably would have been more developed without it. Right.
00:42:42:10 - 00:43:00:05
Hunter Ash
And then, yeah, the the even broader issue from there would be how we, you know, how we see the appropriate role of the state, you know, because I don't believe that trying to engineer private citizens preferences is an appropriate role for the state, even if we believe that those preferences are a moral.
00:43:00:07 - 00:43:03:14
Julian Adorney
Yeah, yeah, it's very libertarian.
00:43:03:15 - 00:43:04:16
Wilk Wilkinson
I tell you what, guys.
00:43:04:16 - 00:43:07:00
Wilk Wilkinson
I mean, obviously this conversation,
00:43:07:00 - 00:43:10:06
Wilk Wilkinson
could continue on for, for a very long time.
00:43:10:06 - 00:43:14:15
Wilk Wilkinson
I think I think what we want to do here is find a good rap point,
00:43:14:15 - 00:43:18:00
Wilk Wilkinson
on this and, and leave the listeners,
00:43:18:00 - 00:43:22:17
Wilk Wilkinson
with wanting more, because there's definitely a lot more to be said here. So,
00:43:22:17 - 00:43:24:07
Wilk Wilkinson
I'd like to give you guys each,
00:43:24:07 - 00:43:25:19
Wilk Wilkinson
you know, a minute or two,
00:43:25:19 - 00:43:26:13
Wilk Wilkinson
just to,
00:43:26:13 - 00:43:34:07
Wilk Wilkinson
just to wrap with some final words for the listeners, this has been a great conversation, and I think it's been very enlightening.
00:43:34:09 - 00:43:49:00
Wilk Wilkinson
Many people, like I said, the way that I started this conversation, the woke right and white identity politics is not something I had spent personally, had spent a lot of time even looking into,
00:43:49:00 - 00:43:53:21
Wilk Wilkinson
didn't really tell a couple weeks ago I didn't even know the woke right was even a thing.
00:43:53:21 - 00:43:59:09
Wilk Wilkinson
And I'm still not so sure, how much of a thing that it actually is.
00:43:59:11 - 00:44:02:22
Wilk Wilkinson
But but, I mean, it's it's obviously something. So. So,
00:44:02:22 - 00:44:03:22
Wilk Wilkinson
I'll start with,
00:44:03:22 - 00:44:09:17
Wilk Wilkinson
I'll start with you, Julian. Give me a minute or two as a, as a wrap up for for you. And then we'll give,
00:44:09:17 - 00:44:10:16
Wilk Wilkinson
Hunter the,
00:44:10:16 - 00:44:14:12
Wilk Wilkinson
the final word as the, as a as a first time guest here on
00:44:14:12 - 00:44:15:18
Wilk Wilkinson
DTH
00:44:15:18 - 00:44:17:14
Wilk Wilkinson
we'll wrap this one up.
00:44:17:16 - 00:44:18:15
Julian Adorney
Yeah, absolutely.
00:44:18:15 - 00:44:27:10
Julian Adorney
And I guess my wrap, my wrapping up point I have, I want to have this conversation because I want to make sure that we sort of essentially the dignity of
00:44:27:10 - 00:44:33:23
Julian Adorney
every human being. And focus on the respect of every human being. And I think our society is good at doing that until it's not.
00:44:33:23 - 00:44:38:06
Julian Adorney
And one of the things that I think happens is we see folks in the dissident.
00:44:38:06 - 00:44:39:02
Julian Adorney
Right.
00:44:39:02 - 00:45:04:16
Julian Adorney
And, and by we, I mean kind of like normie Americans, quote unquote, you know, center right center leftists and, and I think a lot of folks see, like the, the, the all Jews or bastards or the kind of like very edgy online memes about, you know, Hitler or they hear Kanye song, you know, Heil Hitler, or they see white in politics and they immediately think, nope, you know, nothing about that is for me, which is fair.
00:45:04:18 - 00:45:20:18
Julian Adorney
But then they also think nothing about those people is for me. And we, we we can fall into the trap of, oh, you know, I disagree with someone's idea so much that I refuse to see the humanity and I'm just going to lump them in to call them like a basket of deplorables, you know, to borrow Hillary Clinton's rather awful phrase,
00:45:20:18 - 00:45:27:17
Julian Adorney
and so my invitation to you would be, can you, can you give us something because you're,
00:45:27:17 - 00:45:28:15
Julian Adorney
you know, the dissident.
00:45:28:15 - 00:45:48:14
Julian Adorney
Right? Very well. Whether you would call yourself part of that or not, you know, you know, you knows very well I don't as well. Wilk doesn't as well maybe listeners don't as well. Can you give us something to really kind of kind of humanize the Dr.. And kind of showcase, you know, here the virtues that you're kind of missing here, the concerns that you would have to even if they don't show up the same way.
00:45:48:16 - 00:45:52:15
Julian Adorney
Yeah. Just kind of just kind of show us like the, the human face of it all, you know,
00:45:52:15 - 00:45:56:01
Julian Adorney
even if at the end of the day, we still disagree on politics.
00:45:56:03 - 00:45:58:16
Hunter Ash
Sure. Absolutely. So, you know, there are,
00:45:58:16 - 00:46:16:12
Hunter Ash
you know, I costless to me to admit this, like, there are plenty of people who, you know, would loosely be, you know, in this space who are pretty offputting, right? You know, they're right there a lot, you know, to to the vast majority of people, sensibilities that are morally offputting and they're often esthetically offputting, crass, you know,
00:46:16:12 - 00:46:16:20
Hunter Ash
there's
00:46:16:20 - 00:46:18:12
Hunter Ash
a tremendous amount of that.
00:46:18:14 - 00:46:22:13
Hunter Ash
I almost see it as you know, this certainly isn’t intentional,
00:46:22:13 - 00:46:37:20
Hunter Ash
but it's almost a kind of disagreeable a filtering mechanism. Right. Because within this space, you'll also find some of the, I think some of the only truly original political thought happening right now. Right. You know, you'll find people like, you know,
00:46:37:20 - 00:46:40:07
Hunter Ash
Curtis Ervin, Nick land, you know,
00:46:40:07 - 00:46:42:21
Hunter Ash
you know, Baptist, you know, Bronze Age pervert to some extent.
00:46:42:21 - 00:46:54:02
Hunter Ash
Right. Like these people, whatever you think of their ideas, they are innovating, right? Like they are thinking about politics in a new way. Right? They're they're rejecting fukuyama's end of history.
00:46:54:02 - 00:46:59:10
Hunter Ash
So I think that if you wanted to understand how someone could, could end up in these spaces,
00:46:59:10 - 00:47:05:03
Hunter Ash
I think that you need to think about the fact that in a lot of ways.
00:47:05:03 - 00:47:05:22
Hunter Ash
Right. You know,
00:47:05:22 - 00:47:12:12
Hunter Ash
for some economically, for some socially right, for, for some esthetically. Right, they see just sort of, sort of,
00:47:12:12 - 00:47:32:22
Hunter Ash
you know, degradation of, of the, of, you know, popular and even elite culture to some extent. They have seen the consensus liberal position fail for, you know, for many of these people, for most or all of their lifetimes, right, from, from nine over 11, you know, to the 2008, you know, financial crash, right?
00:47:32:22 - 00:47:56:16
Hunter Ash
These are people who have never really, in salient ways seen the, you know, sort of the postwar consensus work. And they're interested in alternatives. Right. And I really, you know, a lot of them go to to bad places. And, you know, what I was going to say was, you know, for my for my sort of sign off note for anyone who does find themselves,
00:47:56:16 - 00:48:02:00
Hunter Ash
persuaded by my line of thinking, I would caution you to avoid,
00:48:02:00 - 00:48:03:20
Hunter Ash
leaning too far into anger.
00:48:04:01 - 00:48:20:07
Hunter Ash
Right. It's very easy to do this, right? It's very easy to see when you've been lied to in a lot of ways. And we have been lied to in a lot of ways. There are many aspects of the, you know, of the the mainstream academic consensus as it relates to a lot of these, these social issues as it relates to group differences that are lies.
00:48:20:07 - 00:48:23:04
Hunter Ash
And they've been made meticulously maintained,
00:48:23:04 - 00:48:40:18
Hunter Ash
deliberately to mislead you. And when you when you see that kind of thing right, when you sort of see through the curtain for the first time, it's easy to become very angry. And it's also easy to believe that you can adopt an just an essentially adversarial epistemology where, you know, you can be sure something is false if the mainstream advocates for it.
00:48:40:18 - 00:48:59:15
Hunter Ash
Right. And that's not true either. Right? They're not perfectly wrong any more than they're they're they're perfectly right. And beyond the fact that I believe this anger and just, you know, sort of reflexive, you know, oppositional attitude is, you know, sort of emotionally and psychologically and socially corrosive. It's also bad political strategy for the exactly the reason you said, Julian.
00:48:59:15 - 00:49:15:19
Hunter Ash
Right. Like the vast majority of people are almost by definition normies. And when they see these kinds of things, right, that you know, you're in group, you know, on for Chan knows all the context for. Right. This is based on, you know, a long lineage of memes, and it's got a million layers inside it. When they see those things right?
00:49:15:19 - 00:49:27:14
Hunter Ash
Like they just, you know, run for the hills, basically. So, you know, stay calm, stay cold, stay centered on your goals, both because it's good for you and because it makes us more likely to succeed.
00:49:27:14 - 00:49:27:22
Hunter Ash
Love it.
00:49:27:22 - 00:49:30:14
Wilk Wilkinson
And that's a beautiful way to wrap this one up.
00:49:30:14 - 00:49:36:12
Wilk Wilkinson
Julian Adorney, Hunter Ash, thank you so much for joining me for this conversation on Derate the Hate.
00:49:36:12 - 00:49:39:05
Wilk Wilkinson
I appreciate both of you very much. And,
00:49:39:05 - 00:49:40:03
Wilk Wilkinson
look forward to,
00:49:40:03 - 00:49:45:01
Wilk Wilkinson
to many more conversations moving forward. We'll definitely have to have a part two to this one.
00:49:45:01 - 00:49:45:12
Wilk Wilkinson
And,
00:49:45:12 - 00:49:49:20
Wilk Wilkinson
maybe many parts after that. Based on the amount of things that that we'll,
00:49:49:20 - 00:49:56:03
Wilk Wilkinson
we'll, we'll have to cover. So, thank you so much, Julian Adorney, Hunter Ash, appreciate your time today.
00:49:56:05 - 00:49:57:02
Julian Adorney
Thank you.
00:49:57:04 - 00:49:58:10
Hunter Ash
Thank you so much for having me.
00:49:58:10 - 00:50:18:04
Wilk Wilkinson
Friends. If there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. Share it with your friends, share it far and wide. And of course, if you haven't done so already, be sure to subscribe right from our website so you can get the Derate The Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week.
00:50:18:05 - 00:50:34:05
Wilk Wilkinson
So this is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything that you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make each and every day the day that you want it to be. If there is something that you would like to share with me, you can catch me on most social media platforms.
00:50:34:10 - 00:50:59:23
Wilk Wilkinson
Or you can email me directly. wilk@WilksWorld.com. With that, my friends, I am going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
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