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❓What happens when the loudest voices drown out the most reasonable ones?
In this episode of Derate The Hate, Wilk Wilkinson sits down with journalist and author Katherine Brodsky for a deeply human conversation about cancel culture, self-censorship, and why silence has become one of the most underestimated forces shaping modern society.
Katherine’s book, No Apologies: How to Find and Free Your Voice in the Age of Outrage, examines how fear, outrage, and social punishment have changed the way people communicate—and why the cost of staying quiet continues to rise.
Katherine shares insights shaped by her experiences as a journalist, author, and someone who has lived under authoritarian systems. She explains how societies don’t just lose free expression through force—but through fear, conformity, and silence.
⛔This episode isn’t about outrage.
✅It’s about responsibility.
✅It’s about authenticity.
✅And it’s about why the silent majority must rediscover its voice.
Website: https://katherinewrites.com
X (Twitter): https://x.com/mysteriouskat
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/randommindschannel
The world is a better place if we are better people. That begins with each of us as individuals. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for all you’ve got. Make every day the day that you want it to be!
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Transcript is AI generated and may contain errors
[00:00:00:00] Wilk Wilkinson: When reasonable people stay silent. The loudest and most extreme voices don't just speak. They take over the room. Today, I'm joined by journalist and author Katherine Brodsky to talk about cancel culture, self-censorship, and why finding your voice isn't about being fearless. It's about moral clarity. If you've ever felt pressure to stay quiet just to keep the peace. This conversation is for you. Stick with me. Welcome back, my friends, for the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross. partisan organization working towards civic renewal. This podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ. Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the Hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Share it with a friend and visit BraverAngels.org to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partisan divide. Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it. My guest today is Katherine Brodsky, an author, journalist, and cultural commentator whose work spans culture, media, technology and social issues. She's written for outlets like The Washington Post, Newsweek, wired, The Guardian, and variety, and she's interviewed hundreds of public figures across art, politics and culture. Katherine is also the author of the book No Apologies How to Find and Free Your Voice in the Age of Outrage, a timely and deeply thoughtful exploration of cancel culture, self-censorship, and what happens when fear replaces honest conversation. In this episode, we talk about why loud, unreasonable voices often dominate public discourse and how that dominance is fueled by the silence of the more moderate and thoughtful people. We explore the dangers of government censorship, the role social media plays in amplifying outrage, and why being allowed to speak even imperfectly or incorrectly is essential for learning, growth and a healthy society. This isn't a conversation about yelling louder. It's about living authentically, speaking with moral clarity, and finding the courage to use your voice without becoming what you opposed. Let's get into it with my friend Katherine Brodsky. Here we go. Katherine Brodsky, thank you for joining me on the Derate the Hate podcast. Great to see you again.
[00:03:47:03] Katherine Brodsky: Thanks for having me. Nice to see you.
[00:03:49:20] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. It's, it's good to have you on the on the show. We've, we've talked before. We run in some common circles, and, I wanted to wanted to get you on the show for a number of reasons. One of the big reasons is the the Pro Human Foundation, Board of Advisors series that, that I've done here on the podcast. I know you're you're one of the advisors, along with me and, and several other just, just great personalities in that group. But, but I wanted to get you on here to talk today about any number of things that are going on, but, right away, I just I want to dive into, well, you know, you had a book come out, this year, and, and it's just very relevant in the world and the landscape that we live in now. Katherine, it kind of centers on, on the cancel culture and being able to speak our mind and self-censorship and things like that. So, when I started looking at the book. So the book is called. No Apologies How to Find and Free Your Voice in the Age of Outrage. Lessons for the silenced majority. And then I saw, something in there that that really stood out to me a lot. And it says when reasonable people. I think it's something to the effect of when reasonable people stay silent, the unreasonable voices fill up the room. So let's start there. Talk to me about that, because that right there, I mean, it hit me like a ton of bricks because it is what we see today, right? I talk about those loudest voices, you know, whether it be online, you know, kind of this virtual room, this virtual space that a lot of us spend far too much time in. But they are filling up the room. Start there for me, Katherine.
[00:05:42:18] Katherine Brodsky: Yeah. And this was actually that that line really essentially was the underlying reason for me wanting to both write the book in the first place and use my own voice in the first place, because what I was seeing in the culture around me at the time was the these really loud, radical, divisive voices. And a lot of people, when I started having conversations privately, were not aligned with these views. They didn't support them, but it felt so lonely in the beginning. Right? Until you start speaking to people and understand what they actually think, all you hear are these radical voices, these this hatefulness, this rhetoric, and, and this is the problem that we have as a society and which is amplified even more nowadays with social media, is that essentially it's the people with the megaphones are the people, the people who tend to gravitate to words speaking out. They have very fundamental, strongly held beliefs. And it creates this kind of sphere where because other people, the more sort of moderate voices, people who disagree with people who are maybe a little bit shy or very agreeable, they don't tend to push back. They remain silent because of fear, discomfort, whatever it is. And so we have this false impression that what is what these loud voices are pushing is actually what everybody believes or what the majority believes. And that's just simply not true. And we see historically also, you know, like the Chinese Cultural Revolution or in, in many different historical events where it's not that the majority believed certain kinds of ideas, it's just that the people who were willing to take and push these ideas by force, they were quite terrifying, quite frankly. And a lot of people either go along with them because maybe they haven't even thought them through. I mean, that's also part of it. Or they think that's the polite thing. That's the nice thing. But also they're really scared. And especially the more this goes on, the more scary it really becomes because there is these repercussions. So in some countries the repercussions could be death. And that's where we get to this extreme. Fortunately, in North America or in the West, we haven't quite gotten to that point. So what we are seeing and especially seeing when I started working on the book is this, you know, that people losing their jobs, their communities, people being publicly shamed, people being publicly, you know, mobbed, on social media in different platforms. You know, fortunately, we weren't seeing violence necessarily at the time. Certainly we're seeing an escalation now. But, but this is something that was a reality, and that's why it was so important for me to convey that message to. I was really writing that book to explain to people, here's what's going on, and this is why it's important for us to speak up, whether that's going to be in a private capacity to your friends, because that could be enough in some cases. And that's something. Or if you have more of a platform, speak up on that and and say what you really believe. And when you see extremism, you have to call it out. And the book was also really about, not silencing people because that's what was really happening. I don't actually agree with all the people in the books. And, you know, I, I don't even like everyone, to be honest, at this point, but but the point is that they weren't they were in a position where they shouldn't have had their lives destroyed for, saying the things that they said or, you know, taking the actions that they did, they weren't these like, you know, people who are out to destroy other people or harm them or hurt them, there is room for dissent. And also, as all of this was going on and is what we're seeing is, is really across many countries, you also have the so there's the social mechanism of suppressing speech, which is what we were like. You know, when people talk about cancel culture, that's really a social mechanism. There is another mechanism that I think is far worse and more dangerous. And that's, you know, the governmental mechanism of censoring speech. And we were also seeing, I guess, with big tech, censorship as well. But when somebody has, you know, for their speech can be put in jail, that's a very, very dangerous thing. And the two are really tied together because if you normalize destroying people's lives over mine, relatively minor infractions and speech, which is what I was saying. Then, you know, people tend to also then support when the government uses it as a tool because the kind of the basic moral premise is similar.
[00:10:59:23] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. there's a lot there, a lot there to unpack. And the oh my gosh. So Katherine, the, the, the idea of of government starting to censor our speech is absolutely terrifying. You know, the, the, the one entity out there that has, has a or should have should be the only entity that has a monopoly on force, right, to come down and start started, you know, imprisoning people and taking away their freedom. For what they say. But, you know, I, my friend David Zweig talks a lot about he he wrote a book, recently as well, called An Abundance of Caution. One of the big things that he talks about in that book is self-censorship, which is, I know you know, something that you've talked about as well, self-censoring because of the fear of what's going to happen, whether it's the fear of, again, worst case scenario, the government, you know, imprisons you or worse yet, kills you, because of what you're saying, as has happened in plenty of other countries. Thankfully, again, not not here in the West. Yeah. And I pray to God that it never gets that, that.
[00:12:16:05] Katherine Brodsky: Far in the West. It has been happening actually, like, not in America, but, precisely. But for example, in England. Right. That's part of the West. And, you know, one of the cases that I talked about in the book was this girl who whose friend died in, I think, a car accident, and she quoted his favorite rap song, which had, you know, a lyric with an inappropriate word, because it's a rap lyric. And I guess she sang it or wrote. I don't remember exactly, but she was arrested now, ultimately, the charges were dropped, but the damage was done. She shouldn't have been arrested in the first place. And so there are cases like that. In her case, it was just so, blatant because it's just so innocent. But, some cases it's, you know, maybe people make speech points that are more offensive. And maybe with an intent to offend and. Yeah, but but that is such a dangerous place to be where people are being arrested for that in Ireland, they made a law where, I don't know if it's passed yet or not, but it was it was getting close to passing is where essentially they can access your computer. It was pre-crime. Right. So, like.
[00:13:29:20] Wilk Wilkinson: Minority Report kind of stuff. Right?
[00:13:31:22] Katherine Brodsky: Basically, like if you have something on your computer, you might want to at some point. Right. Like, but if you're say you're writer, you know, like experimenting with things, are you putting things thoughts on paper. Or maybe you're just ranting and you're never going to do anything about it. Like it's that that is just so insane that that it's like talking about.
[00:13:57:03] Wilk Wilkinson: Man. Yeah. I mean, the whole idea of storyboarding something. Right? And then having somebody come in and, and, and reading all the different things that you've been going through or or. Yeah. I mean, if you're researching a book on extremism and, yeah. And, you know, where, where, where the lines drawn, but, you know, kind of getting back to that whole idea of self-censorship and, and how, you know, one of the big things that that I've talked to other people about, that have, you know, we've had these conversations about cancel culture and, and, and censorship and things like that. Katherine, is is the idea that how do we course correct if we don't allow diversity of thought and we don't allow people to express their opinions? You know, I just watched the movie the other day, you know, when we're recording this, it's, you know, it's Christmas season And I just watched the movie, with my kids, Scrooged, you know. Oh, yeah, Bill Murray and love it. And Bobcat Goldthwait. Go wait, I don't something like that. He plays that guy that, you know, speaks up in the board meeting and and then gets fired for, for saying the wrong, you know, the wrong thing to his boss. And, and I, I don't know, I mean, and then he comes back later. Shoot up. It's very funny, but,
[00:15:13:14] Katherine Brodsky: Well, the point is that you should be able to say things that are wrong sometimes. Like that is how people get course corrected, right? Like correction. Yeah. That we're always going to say the right thing. I've certainly had thoughts that were like wrong or opinions that that I've changed my mind about because I voiced them. And then people who knew better said, no, no, Katherine, this is what you're missing. This is where you're going wrong. This is maybe you want to think about it this way. And when you see that the intention of the person and I think what it is is a lot of times people just assume really bad intentions to people like, I don't have this issue really with my friends. Like, I can kind of say anything and my friends know my character that know that I'm not trying to hurt somebody. I'm not coming from a malicious place. So I can say pretty much anything, and they're not going to take it as me being, you know, horrible their goodness, you know, maybe correct, an assumption that I have or but when we're applying the same to just random people in public, you know, we have a tendency to assign bad faith to them. And I think that's a big part of it as well. And then, of course, we have this cycle of self-censorship where people are just like, well, I'd better not say anything at all because I might not get it perfectly. Just, just ideally. Right. And it's this litmus test of being a pure, wonderful, perfect person where, of course, none of us are perfect, wonderful people. We make mistakes. We're wrong. Sometimes we have biases. We have, you know, I've certainly had some that I've gotten over. I mean, I think that's okay. That's kind of part like there's things I wasn't exposed to it that I was, and so without being able to speak and be wrong, sometimes you can't actually get it right.
[00:17:04:03] Wilk Wilkinson: That's exactly. Yeah. I mean, that's a hugely important point that can't be overstated in my opinion. Is, is the idea that the only way that we course correct, the only way we, we can really learn from our mistakes, like you just said, Katherine, being exposed to something that that you hadn't before been exposed to. Right. The the, my friend Monica Guzman, who's my she wrote the book, I never thought of it that way. the idea of. Okay, this is something that was so blind spot for me. I didn't know about it. I know about it. Now I can think through it, and, Yeah, when we aren't exposed to to things, that that we disagree with, we never have that ability to see things through a different lens. We don't have that ability to to say, oh, I never thought of it that way. That's something completely foreign to me. This person has a different lived experience than I have. And now I am for the first time seeing this, it's like, a bit of your back story, and I want to get into this just a little bit with you. And then we'll kind of dive more back into. I want to talk more about that. You know, you talk about the silent majority, but but I want to talk a little bit about your backstory. Katherine, because, you you live in Canada now, but but you were born, in, in the old USSR, right? Yeah. And and we're exposed to things growing up, so. So this is always something that, that I, I like to ask people on this podcast and especially people in this kind of bridging space or depolarization space thought leaders in, how did you get into this? You know, this this I mean, I don't know if you consider yourself a thought leader, but, but I certainly consider you kind of one of these thought leaders in, in, in that, helping people to see things more clearly than they, than they probably wouldn't otherwise see them. So as somebody who was born in the USSR and, and kind of I know you grew up on like a three different continents and different things before you made your way to, or maybe Canada, you know, North America is one of those continents, but but talk to me a little bit about kind of how you got here.
[00:19:17:09] Katherine Brodsky: Sure. And, you know, I, I didn't, you know, I was quite young when I left the Soviet Union. I, I grew up in the part that is now Ukraine and will remain, there's a little political statement here, but, but it is, something where, you know, a professor of mine used to say you can't grow up in the household of your parents, and and I think that's kind of key here. And of course, when you're growing up, you you think your parents are insane and over exaggerate everything, and then it's just typical. You you tend to be a little bit rebellious. And I wanted to fit in very badly. And so I listen to my parents and I think it made me, sort of more critical person and more distrustful, I guess, of kind of authority. Not not in a way that would be, you know, I'm very I'm, I'm very feeble, you know, like, I don't go out and and and and just immediately rebel. But, you know, I think critically about if some, if somebody's telling me something, I thinking, is that true? Is that right? And I would like to credit my parents for that, sort of framework. And I think that informs a lot of, of my future. So even though I had particular political views, like I said, although I didn't really think about politics very much, but, you know, I had different views, I think I always had sort of a more independent mindset nonetheless. And I was able to like, look at things, one by one. But a big thing that, you know, my parents would sort of warned me about is, is I think it's this group think, and the mechanisms of authoritarianism, which both, you know, obviously in the Soviet Union came from the state, but also from the people. So I think it's made me really allergic to this sort of herd like thinking, where you see people repeat certain lines where you, you know, certain statements like that where you're not allowed to challenge things, that you just kind of have to accept them and mimic them and comply, or else you're ostracized. Again, we haven't reached a stage, in our governing where necessarily I mean, we're seeing some of that, but where the tools of the state are being is we are seeing some of that, but it's not certainly to the extent of what we saw in the Soviet Union especially, you know, you know, my parents childhood or before that, even more so. Right. Things kind of started loosening up at a certain point. And so I think those kinds of things really informed my views of things. And then at a certain point in my life, I'm, you know, I'm a writer, I'm a journalist. I was always just I'm driven by curiosity. I loved talking to people. I wrote a lot about movies and did a lot of interviews and it wasn't political in nature at all. And where I started, I guess, where you said that leadership is really because I started seeing, these elements of intolerance in our society where people were not able to speak about things without a mob being, you know, descending upon them and destroying their lives, or conversely, also seeing people speak about things where they had grains of truth. But there were so extreme in the way they approach these topics. So there's a lot of topics which are unnecessarily, I think, made into this sensationalized and divisive ways. Whereas if you talk to people, you know, and just without putting the emotion into where with using facts and logic and, and also understanding how people are going to hear it, from their perspectives and speaking to them, you can get them on your side or at least reconsider these, these ideas or these questions. And so really, I felt a responsibility. That's really where it came from, because I saw a lot of people who were being silenced, who were decent human beings. I saw I was seeing people being canceled. I also I had my own experience, with being attacked as well. That obviously had a big impact on me, but it wasn't so much because I had that personal experience. It's because of the messages that I got as a result of that experience where people shared their stories, and I guess I felt I didn't I didn't see myself as a risk taker, honestly. But for some reason, something in me just kind of went, I couldn't I could not speak about it, I could not say anything. And I really thought my life would be destroyed. And I do think I suffered consequences, some opportunities to, but also a lot of consequences. But it felt like I could not do it. And I felt that at the very least, I, I could bring a certain kind of I can bring the temperature down. I can approach it from a more sort of reasonable perspective. People are going to get mad at me for calling myself reasonable. I don't know if I feel like everything I say is like so, so upsetting to people these days. But, you know, I genuinely I do because that is my that is how I try do my very best to approach things. Maybe doesn't always work, but I really try hard. I'm very anchored by this kind of idea. What's useful? Doesn't mean I don't have the occasional emotional reaction where I handle things wrong. Exactly. But what's what's useful, I think, is like a big anchor. And I've written a little bit about that where it's like, if I, if I stop, if you say something to me, you know, and I just start screaming at you, what is that really going to do? I'm going to feel self-righteous. Right? But, but what is that going to do to you?
[00:25:01:16] Wilk Wilkinson: My ears are going to slam shut and nothing else is going to get accomplished.
[00:25:04:16] Katherine Brodsky: Actually, the.
[00:25:05:11] Wilk Wilkinson: Things that I talk about a lot is, is that idea that in a dialog, I mean, if we ever expect our points to be heard, our point of view to be conveyed to that other person, especially a person that we know disagrees with us, we have to be able to, to keep those emotions in check. We have to be able to listen with intention to them if we expect them to listen. Doing with intention. To us, I want to I want to transition that into, this thing again with the book. Katherine the, the, the way that, so many people you said it in the very beginning part of our conversation and, and I think it's a big theme in the book is, is that that silent majority and again, how if we allow the unreasonable voices to take up all the air in the room, the reasonable voices are no longer, available. And that perception, becomes for so many people that those reasonable voices aren't even there anymore. And then that unreasonable, you know, you talked about being reasonable, and you're going to get in trouble for what some people for for calling yourself reasonable. Well, I would say, and I, and I know a lot of other people that would say you are very reasonable. And when we have these, you know, dial or try to try to begin a dialog with, with people, especially people that we disagree with. That takes a lot of courage. And, while I've known a lot of people in my time that believe they are reasonable, but I believe they're unreasonable, and then we have those conversations again, that takes courage. One of the big things we're talking about, these days at Braver Angels, we're in the courageous citizenship business. You know, it takes a lot of courage to find your voice as you you you know how people do with this book and, and, and a lot of the work that you do on your Substack at that Katherine brodsky.com, but that courage is not always easy to find. Not everybody, is going to be like, you know, me and start a podcast or you and, and and write all these wonderful things and help people to, to find themselves, find their voice. But what are just what are some of the things, that, that people can kind of take away? How can people find that courage? People within that silent majority like you talked about that, that their reality becomes, well, all these loudest voices, they must be the majority. They're not. But they people begin to that becomes their reality. But it's not the real reality. How do those people find the courage to stand up and say, I'm not going to silence myself. I want to have courage like like Katherine, to to stand up and use my voice to make something happen.
[00:28:05:21] Katherine Brodsky: Well, I think a really important thing for people to understand about me and not just me is like, I don't consider myself courageous. I don't think I have a lot of courage. I think what it is, and this is what I found also in interviewing certain people who spoke up, who who got in trouble for speaking up, said they felt that they had couldn't do otherwise. So it was more I think it has more to do with a certain moral clarity and a principled stand than it does courage, because it's it's like scary. It's terrifying in a lot of cases with people where I talked to, they hadn't even considered it. I would say in my case, I had, because I kind of need assumed I knew what the repercussions would be, what the price to pay would be. And I wasn't wrong, although I would say that, in some ways I was surprised because once I pushed back, the same people stopped kind of coming at me. I think that sort of, I don't know, scared them away or what? Because they weren't used to getting any kind of pushback. And I never pushed back in in an aggressive way. I just spoke about what the reality of what they were and which is really bullies. That's what they are ultimately. And so I guess they didn't want to continue being bullies. I don't know. But but I think when people are looking for that, like, and everyone is in a different situation, people have families, you know, and I get it, I'm sympathetic to that. But I also think we have a moral responsibility because ultimately the price to pay becomes more and more and more. So right now it's maybe some social shaming. Then you know, maybe losing your job. And also that's been obviously a consequence, but also at some point it becomes a life and death situation. And how people do it is, is, is something for them to consider. And, you know, in some for for some people that might involve just being honest with their friends and they'll find that they'll have much better friendships because those are going to be authentic friendships and maybe they'll lose some friends. But were they really the right people to have in your life in the first place? It hurts. But you know, you shed, you find the real, the real people in your life, and so you get get a reward for that in that way. And then also, how do you protect yourself, you know, and that's, a combination of having community and also financial repercussions, you know, so if people can find ways to be more independent financially, that's going to empower them to speak as well, more openly. So so I think also addressing this, these mitigating things and then ultimately is like not everything is worth speaking out about. Find the things that really matter to you. What do you care about and are willing to take a stand on? That might not be every single thing, but it might be that thing that you can't, you know, that really matters and where maybe you can have some sort of impact. So that's that's what I would say about that.
[00:31:09:04] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. and one thing that I, I just want to say quickly there, Katherine is, you said you don't you don't see yourself as being courageous and, and some of these other, you know, folks that that stood up were just absolutely terrified. But but my idea of courage and what I always think about when I think of courage is, is being terrified, knowing something, knowing that there's going to be repercussions for what you are about to do and saddled up and doing it anyway. Right? I mean, that's that's always going to be one of those things where, okay, we we know that if we speak up in this particular instance, you know, whether it be, to a, to a boss that is, you know, taking advantage of us in some way or, or some, you know, online keyboard warrior bully. That's, that's, that's saying and doing things, terribly online and or or, you know, whatever the case may be, standing up to bullies is always going to require courage. sometimes, a metaphorical pop in the nose is a real one. But but sometimes a pop in the nose, metaphorically. Online, for a bully is enough that it. You know, they they back off. Right. But but I was.
[00:32:25:14] Katherine Brodsky: Bullied as, I was bullied as a teenager. Quite, quite a bit. And, you know, my friends at the time sucked because they didn't. They were so scared of the bullies. They didn't do anything. But. And I was terrified, too. And in my little frail little way, I but I, I pushed back. Right. And that made me maybe not as good of a target over time. And also it gives you like a certain self-respect. Like. And I think when you don't, when, when your valleys don't align with your actions and your stances, you you lose respect for yourself. That's right. And so it's a way of also finding that respect for yourself. But I just don't want people to think that this is something. Well, you know. Oh, I, I'm not a courageous person or, it's not about a temper. I mean, there are people who are just like, you know, they're going to go into the line of fire every time. I know I'm not one of those people. I really consider what I do. And, but, I guess it's more to say, like, anybody can find it within themselves when they have a certain degree of moral clarity and what they feel like they can stand up to, that aligns with their values.
[00:33:37:14] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. I love that moral clarity. what is our purpose? What is our, when you align purpose with moral clarity? And then I'm going to keep on throwing it in there because I think it's important, the courage, the courageous citizenship. Like, we talk about a Braver Angels. and then I it would be terrible if I didn't mention, again, the pro human foundation always, always taking into account our shared humanity in our interactions with with people that we we don't agree with, finding that. So, Katherine, our time here is, flown by and, just a just a great conversation. So many more things that we could talk about. And, and, we'll save them for the next conversation. But but again, the website is it's Katherinewrites.com. I think I said that wrong earlier, but but Katherinewrites.com the book again is No Apologies how to find and free your voice in the age of outrage. Katherine, one last question and then we'll wrap this one up. We talked and we've talked about this, but but why? Certain things matter. Why do you think finding your voice. Just just one quick wrap up. Why does it matter so much to to find our voice, especially, especially in this, this kind of age of outrage?
[00:34:53:04] Katherine Brodsky: You know, a big part of that is and just obviously, I think that it can have an impact on, on other people and society, but also on ourselves and the way that we are authentic to ourselves and how we live our lives. And I mentioned, you know, being authentic also means that we have more authentic relationships. Being authentic to yourself is being more true to yourself. So you end up living a better life in a way, because it's an authentic life. And I think there is a very severe discomfort that people feel when they're not living authentically. And so to me, that's really tied into that as well.
[00:35:30:03] Wilk Wilkinson: Very well said. All right. Katherine Brodsky the the website again, Katherinewrites.com. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining me here on Derate the Hate.
[00:35:40:06] Katherine Brodsky: Thank you so much for having me and for all the work you do at Braver Angels as well, which is a great organization.
[00:35:46:21] Wilk Wilkinson: Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate the Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together, so please take a moment to visit BraverAngels.org and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divides. This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friends, I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
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