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In this week’s episode of the Derate The Hate podcast, Wilk Wilkinson sits down with Stewart Fletcher, Director of Communications for Living Room Conversations, a transpartisan nonprofit committed to reconnecting people through the power of respectful dialogue.
At a time when political polarization and social division seem to dominate every space—from online forums to holiday dinner tables—this conversation offers a refreshing and actionable message: conversations grounded in curiosity, empathy, and respect can heal divides.
Stewart shares how events like the 2016 U.S. election and Charlottesville shaped his path toward bridge-building and ultimately led him to Living Room Conversations. The organization empowers everyday people to come together and talk—not to argue or convert—but to understand.
✅ Conversations are essential tools for addressing today’s biggest societal challenges.
✅ The 2016 election was a wake-up call for many to get involved in depolarization efforts.
✅ Personal stories and shared experiences lay the groundwork for genuine connection.
✅ Living Room Conversations offers a free, accessible structure for anyone to host civil, values-driven dialogue.
✅ Suspending judgment creates room for empathy and honest listening.
✅ The internet often amplifies fear and outrage; real-world conversation is the antidote.
“I want to open minds, not change them.”
“The internet can be a toxic space.”
“We all want freedom and safety.”
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Transcript is AI generated and may contain errors
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:49:09
Wilk Wilkinson
Welcome back, my friends, for the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog. And those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross partisan organization working towards civic renewal.
00:00:49:11 - 00:01:16:15
Wilk Wilkinson
This podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ.
00:01:16:17 - 00:01:41:00
Wilk Wilkinson
Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Share it with a friend and visit BraverAngels.org to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partisan divide.
00:01:41:02 - 00:01:49:20
Wilk Wilkinson
Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it.
00:01:49:20 - 00:02:26:00
Wilk Wilkinson
This week's guest is Stewart Fletcher, director of communications for Living Room Conversations, another organization that is doing wonderful work in the bridging and depolarization space. Stewart's journey into this work began around the time of the 2016 election, and pivotal moments like Charlottesville, events that highlighted just how fractured our country had become. Since then, he's dedicated himself to helping people rediscover the transformative power of respectful, empathetic dialog.
00:02:26:02 - 00:02:54:03
Wilk Wilkinson
In this conversation, Stewart and I dig deep into why conversation? Real vulnerable, face to face conversation is not just valuable, but vital. We talk about how living room conversations provides a simple, yet powerful structure to bring people with differing viewpoints together not to debate, but to understand each other. We're diving into what it really means to truly listen.
00:02:54:05 - 00:03:20:14
Wilk Wilkinson
How shared experiences bridge divides, and why curiosity and respect are the secret ingredient that can turn polarization into connection. If you care about healing, divides, and building stronger communities, it's another Derate the hate conversation that you do not want to miss. Let's get into it with my friend from Living Room Conversations. Stewart Fletcher. Here we go.
00:03:20:14 - 00:03:24:22
Wilk Wilkinson
Stewart Fletcher, thank you so much for joining me here on the Derate the Hate podcast.
00:03:24:22 - 00:03:27:20
Wilk Wilkinson
Good to see you today, man. Thank you for joining me.
00:03:27:22 - 00:03:28:08
Stewart Fletcher
Yeah.
00:03:28:08 - 00:03:30:14
Stewart Fletcher
I'm happy to be here.
00:03:30:14 - 00:03:32:01
Wilk Wilkinson
I was bouncing around,
00:03:32:01 - 00:03:34:15
Wilk Wilkinson
LinkedIn one day, and,
00:03:34:15 - 00:03:42:21
Wilk Wilkinson
I see this organization called Living Room Conversations. I'm like, well, I got to figure that out because, I, I love the,
00:03:42:21 - 00:03:59:04
Wilk Wilkinson
whole thing about conversations. I have a lot of conversations and, and I think, one of the best ways, ways to, to navigate a lot of our problems in, in society and our personal lives, in our politics is through conversation and,
00:03:59:04 - 00:04:02:11
Wilk Wilkinson
I talk a lot about kitchen table conversations.
00:04:02:13 - 00:04:03:20
Wilk Wilkinson
But naturally, I saw
00:04:03:20 - 00:04:07:09
Wilk Wilkinson
living room conversations, and I'm like, gotta check that out.
00:04:07:09 - 00:04:08:15
Wilk Wilkinson
The more I dug in,
00:04:08:15 - 00:04:10:04
Wilk Wilkinson
the more I liked and,
00:04:10:04 - 00:04:12:15
Wilk Wilkinson
and like I said, just grateful to,
00:04:12:15 - 00:04:14:07
Wilk Wilkinson
to have you here today to learn,
00:04:14:07 - 00:04:20:05
Wilk Wilkinson
more about living room conversations. Now you're the communications director at living room conversations, right?
00:04:20:05 - 00:04:21:14
Wilk Wilkinson
Stewart?
00:04:21:16 - 00:04:30:22
Stewart Fletcher
Yes, I am their director of communications. I am in charge of all of their outward facing marketing and social media presence. And our newsletter.
00:04:31:00 - 00:04:31:18
Wilk Wilkinson
Very good,
00:04:31:18 - 00:04:32:01
Wilk Wilkinson
And
00:04:32:01 - 00:04:43:06
Wilk Wilkinson
What brought you or what got you interested in the, let's say, bridge building depolarization space? How long have you been with the organization living room conversations.
00:04:43:08 - 00:04:46:11
Stewart Fletcher
So I've been with, we can call it LRC if,
00:04:46:11 - 00:05:05:18
Stewart Fletcher
living room conversations is too much of a mouthful. I know, I end up typing conversations that just that word maybe 100 times a day. But yeah. So LRC, I joined in the very beginning of 2022. So I've been with them for about three years, not in this current capacity.
00:05:05:18 - 00:05:39:12
Stewart Fletcher
I've only been director of communications for the last six or so months, just about okay. And I guess really what drew me to the bridge building space in general was and I think this is the same with a lot of people, was kind of the 2016 election. It was so contentious and so polarizing, and it seemed like every day, every sound bite, every news articles about how evil the other side was, whether you're a Republican or a Democrat, the other side was like the personification of evil.
00:05:39:14 - 00:05:55:20
Stewart Fletcher
And that just didn't sit right with me. That didn't seem honest. It didn't reflect how my relationships with people on either side of the political spectrum have been. And so I just wanted to kind of, I guess, fight against that narrative. Ever since then.
00:05:55:20 - 00:05:58:10
Wilk Wilkinson
I think that's why a lot of people,
00:05:58:10 - 00:06:17:07
Wilk Wilkinson
find themselves, you know, kind of dipping their toe into that, that the polarization pool. Right? Because they see a lot of the ugliness that we see online. They see how polarized things are online, all the ugliness in our politics, in our media.
00:06:17:09 - 00:06:29:17
Wilk Wilkinson
They're like, this doesn't really completely and totally reflect what I'm seeing in real life in my circles. So maybe I can well, I can only speak for myself.
00:06:29:17 - 00:06:37:00
Wilk Wilkinson
Stewart, But but that's really one of the things with me is when I started to see not only what was going on
00:06:37:00 - 00:06:39:22
Wilk Wilkinson
online, in the media,
00:06:39:22 - 00:06:42:04
Wilk Wilkinson
especially in our politics.
00:06:42:05 - 00:07:08:20
Wilk Wilkinson
I'm like, this does not reflect what I'm seeing in real life. But then what I started to see more and more often was people gravitating to that ugliness online, in the media, in our politics. And then it did start to affect their life and did start to affect things in real time in their circles of influence, in their in their communities.
00:07:08:22 - 00:07:12:12
Wilk Wilkinson
And I'm like, something's got to be done about this. And,
00:07:12:12 - 00:07:19:02
Wilk Wilkinson
so, so I love talk and I love having conversations with people in this space. Stewart. Especially people
00:07:19:02 - 00:07:31:03
Wilk Wilkinson
who have made this, whether they make it an actual profession or it's just a passion project. They mission something they do on a volunteer basis. And let me ask you this, Stewart is now as the director
00:07:31:03 - 00:07:33:18
Wilk Wilkinson
of communications at LRC.
00:07:33:20 - 00:07:37:18
Wilk Wilkinson
Is is this your job? What were you doing before this?
00:07:37:18 - 00:07:40:02
Wilk Wilkinson
Is this a is this a,
00:07:40:02 - 00:07:47:01
Wilk Wilkinson
a side gig, or is this your your your your full time deal? Now?
00:07:47:03 - 00:08:15:08
Stewart Fletcher
I would love for it to become my full time deal. Right now, I work part time for LRC, and I go to school. I'm at Brigham Young University in Provo, Utah, and so I'm a political science student. So my work and my school kind of weave in and out of each other. It's kind of fun. You hear stories brought up in class about things like Braver Angels, or you hear about the Losing First Coalition and you're like, oh, like my schooling and my work get to complement each other.
00:08:15:08 - 00:08:19:20
Stewart Fletcher
So well. It kind of feels like I'm doing it full time.
00:08:19:22 - 00:08:21:13
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah, yeah. No, I get that.
00:08:21:13 - 00:08:35:03
Wilk Wilkinson
I incorporate all the things that I do, my depolarization work, my work with braver angels, in my work with the Pro Human Foundation, I incorporate all these different things into my everyday life.
00:08:35:05 - 00:08:47:09
Wilk Wilkinson
So as we weave these things together, it's often hard to see where one ends and one begins or vice versa. Right? Because I think when you get into this work and this is this is what I want to
00:08:47:09 - 00:08:49:15
Wilk Wilkinson
dive in to with you,
00:08:49:15 - 00:08:59:18
Wilk Wilkinson
a little bit more is, is as we get into this space, as we start doing this thing, it becomes it becomes infectious.
00:08:59:18 - 00:09:25:13
Wilk Wilkinson
It becomes one of these things where we're like, or at least it is for me. And I'd like to get your viewpoint on this. I start to see ways that I can incorporate the lessons that I learned in the depolarization work, in the depolarization space into everything else that I do, and trying to influence people to to see things.
00:09:25:15 - 00:09:42:19
Wilk Wilkinson
Not necessarily, not necessarily. I'm not here to change minds. I'm here to open minds. And I think that's a lot of what this is, these conversations that we have in the bridge building space, it's about opening minds and showing people that there is a better way. There's a better way to have,
00:09:42:19 - 00:09:45:20
Wilk Wilkinson
non contentious conversations about contentious issues.
00:09:46:02 - 00:09:48:01
Wilk Wilkinson
Is that the same thing that you're seeing?
00:09:48:01 - 00:09:57:05
Wilk Wilkinson
Stewart, I mean, whether it be at school or in your work with LRC when you weave these things together, is that
00:09:57:05 - 00:10:01:03
Wilk Wilkinson
is that is that been your experience?
00:10:01:05 - 00:10:36:11
Stewart Fletcher
One of the like the fundamental values of the bridge building space is just like open and honest communication. It's listening skills, it's respect. It's all these kinds of things that apply very deeply to politics and the polarization. But like you're saying, it's the universally applicable. It's it would be like impossible for me to go from having a living room conversation where we agree to listen and suspend judgment and let other people talk to them, like go out and like start spreading vitriol and hate like I would be.
00:10:36:16 - 00:10:58:11
Stewart Fletcher
I'd be. It just wouldn't work. I'd be living in this weird, like, dissonance with myself. And so, yeah, I, I would say it's definitely changed the way that I communicate almost in general, but especially around politics and my day to day relationships, even online, like in comment sections, when I'm just representing myself, I can say whatever I want.
00:10:58:13 - 00:11:19:17
Stewart Fletcher
That's kind of the weird beauty. And also the horror of the internet is it's like no accountability for what you say. But I'm still motivated in those moments to say kind things and to kind of bridge gaps and to find common ground, because otherwise I'd just added to the division that I'm trying to fight. You can make sense.
00:11:19:19 - 00:11:22:03
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah, it doesn't make any sense. And, and,
00:11:22:03 - 00:11:25:11
Wilk Wilkinson
it's it's it's wild for me.
00:11:25:11 - 00:11:37:00
Wilk Wilkinson
Stewart, to think back to, to some of the online toxicity that I used to engage in back in the day and then to see how far I've come,
00:11:37:00 - 00:11:49:20
Wilk Wilkinson
as a, as a part of this work, whether it be the work that I do with, with the podcast, you rate the hate or now as a, as one of the leaders within the Braver Angels organization.
00:11:49:22 - 00:11:57:13
Wilk Wilkinson
Again, those things now it's you for me. I just don't see where one ends and the other begins. They've they've kind of blended.
00:11:57:13 - 00:12:00:05
Wilk Wilkinson
Now for my personal story,
00:12:00:05 - 00:12:13:20
Wilk Wilkinson
many people on the podcast or listening to the podcast know because I've been very upfront about it. I was very toxic before. A lot of the people that I encounter in the depolarization space had some kind of
00:12:13:20 - 00:12:14:06
Wilk Wilkinson
moment.
00:12:14:06 - 00:12:16:01
Wilk Wilkinson
They had something,
00:12:16:01 - 00:12:38:11
Wilk Wilkinson
where their story started as, you know, something happened. And and then they found their way into this space. Was that your experience, Stewart, or how did you find yourself getting into this type of work?
00:12:38:13 - 00:13:10:12
Stewart Fletcher
To me, it wasn't necessarily something that happened personally. It was I have a very vivid memory of I think it was 2017. Now I'm saying my memories are vivid. I can't remember the year, but I, I remember all of the crazy violence and chaos around Charlottesville and people were coming out. And, you know, there was the famous this video of students with tiki torches, you know, chanting all sorts of hateful messages.
00:13:10:12 - 00:13:38:02
Stewart Fletcher
And then there were people coming out there like, we're going to fight these evil fascists and we're going to become antifa. And I remember watching this footage thinking, oh, this is not the way to solve these kinds of problems. I don't remember when it was, but there was like, it might have been Charlottesville, where there's a crowd of people and somebody drove a sports car into the crowd of people and then backed up and ended up killing like 2 or 3 people in the process of injuring who knows how many.
00:13:38:04 - 00:13:55:21
Stewart Fletcher
And I just remember sitting back thinking I was raised to believe that we were the most advanced, the richest, safest, most powerful country in the world. You know, you hear all this rhetoric about how great the United States is, and then you see that we're incapable of even having conversations,
00:13:55:21 - 00:13:58:04
Stewart Fletcher
and then you start to go, well, maybe we're not great at all.
00:13:58:06 - 00:14:19:10
Stewart Fletcher
You start tearing down any institutions that I think. I think that's why, like, institutional distrust is on the rise is because people go, well, I thought we were this great country. Now there's all these problems. We can't even seem to talk. So maybe none of it was worth it. Maybe we shouldn't believe in anything. And of course, I think that's an overcorrection.
00:14:19:10 - 00:14:34:09
Stewart Fletcher
I think there's a happy medium, but I that kind of the rhetoric and the videos and the news that I was watching at that time were just also hateful, that I just had to tell myself, it's got to be a better way.
00:14:34:11 - 00:14:34:21
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah.
00:14:34:21 - 00:14:38:14
Wilk Wilkinson
There's definitely got to be a better way. And, and I'm right there with you,
00:14:38:14 - 00:14:53:00
Wilk Wilkinson
one of the reasons I came up with the name Derate The Hate, is, is is because, at some point, you either have to turn down whatever it is that that's driving this thing, or it's going to implode.
00:14:53:00 - 00:14:56:17
Wilk Wilkinson
It's going to tear itself apart. I think the Charlottesville,
00:14:56:17 - 00:15:00:12
Wilk Wilkinson
example is, is is fantastic, Stewart, because,
00:15:00:12 - 00:15:07:19
Wilk Wilkinson
seeing the, the ugliness that that came along with that and, and that's not just, just one of them,
00:15:07:19 - 00:15:09:04
Wilk Wilkinson
or that's just one of,
00:15:09:04 - 00:15:10:11
Wilk Wilkinson
one of many,
00:15:10:11 - 00:15:21:07
Wilk Wilkinson
but the whole thing that bothers me and kind of to your point is, there are so many people out there that,
00:15:21:07 - 00:15:27:14
Wilk Wilkinson
have have learned that they can capitalize on this fear, outrage and grievance.
00:15:27:15 - 00:15:30:22
Wilk Wilkinson
So they drive that model and they,
00:15:30:22 - 00:15:57:16
Wilk Wilkinson
I call them outrage entrepreneurs and grievance grifters. They push forth this this narrative or these fake videos, these deep fakes that they know are going to drive a a wedge between otherwise reasonably minded people. And and that's why I think it's, it's so important the week the work that we are doing in this space,
00:15:57:16 - 00:16:06:10
Wilk Wilkinson
because if, if we just continue to allow those, those forces online, whether it be,
00:16:06:10 - 00:16:14:09
Wilk Wilkinson
just the outrage entrepreneurs and grievance grifters that have made a name for themselves in social media or the,
00:16:14:09 - 00:16:17:14
Wilk Wilkinson
the standard cable news media stations,
00:16:17:14 - 00:16:20:19
Wilk Wilkinson
that tend to push a narrative that,
00:16:21:18 - 00:16:25:03
Wilk Wilkinson
gravitates towards one side of the spectrum or the other,
00:16:25:03 - 00:16:55:06
Wilk Wilkinson
or the, the, the loudest voices within our politics if we just continue to allow them to go and spew this unfettered nonsense that they know is is creating division, then where do we end up? Where do we end up? Because, you know, I, I used to believe myself to be a, a, a reasonably minded person back in the day.
00:16:55:07 - 00:16:59:05
Wilk Wilkinson
But I would watch all that stuff. I would feel my blood pressure going up.
00:16:59:05 - 00:17:19:17
Wilk Wilkinson
I would feel my emotions taking control. I would feel myself losing the ability for rational thought when it came to certain things. And I just I look around and that's what I see. I see a lot of that. So talk to me about how LRC has.
00:17:19:19 - 00:17:20:08
Stewart Fletcher
Well, first.
00:17:20:10 - 00:17:23:16
Wilk Wilkinson
Let's go back. I guess let's go back to the beginning. I know you haven't been there,
00:17:23:16 - 00:17:34:03
Wilk Wilkinson
as the director of communications for a super long time, but you've been with the organization quite some time. And then obviously, as the director,
00:17:34:03 - 00:17:39:18
Wilk Wilkinson
now you know how they got started. Talk to me about how, you got started back in,
00:17:39:18 - 00:17:42:18
Wilk Wilkinson
say 2010, when they when they got started.
00:17:42:20 - 00:17:47:20
Stewart Fletcher
Yeah. So this year is our 15th anniversary. We're kind of celebrating that in a,
00:17:47:20 - 00:18:06:02
Stewart Fletcher
in a happy, sad way where it's like, we've been doing this work for so long, it's great. But also maybe things are getting worse. And so we're happy to be in the fray. We so we were started by two women who predominantly one of them, Joan Blades, is still with living room conversations.
00:18:06:04 - 00:18:29:05
Stewart Fletcher
She was most worried about climate change. She fell in 2000, you know, the early 2000, that climate change was such an imposing incoming issue that we were unable to even talk about because if a liberal person brought it up, well, then it's like fear mongering propaganda. And if we're conservative person brought it up, well, then it's, you know, fear mongering propaganda.
00:18:29:05 - 00:18:58:02
Stewart Fletcher
Like no matter which way people felt like it was this, this untouchable, unfathomable issue to even discuss. So she wanted to discuss it, and she knew that the only way to solve major problems, like global problems, like that, would be if both parties worked together. So initially she brought together a bunch of her friends. Well, it started with her and one other guy who was conservative, and both of them brought their own friends.
00:18:58:02 - 00:19:23:20
Stewart Fletcher
So it's kind of people that had never met came together in this group, and she loved that model so much so that the kind of birthed living room conversations from that, from this idea that you could bring, you know, 4 to 6 people together, it doesn't matter how different they are if they all agree to what we call the conversation agreements, just like six guidelines about respect and listening, then you can really talk about anything.
00:19:23:22 - 00:19:41:14
Stewart Fletcher
And once you can talk about anything now, you can solve problems. Now we can move forward. Now we can answer these kind of questions about climate change, about immigration, about gun control, about abortion, like these big hot button issues that have been hot button issues my entire life, you know, for decades
00:19:41:14 - 00:19:44:12
Stewart Fletcher
because we can't seem to solve them.
00:19:44:14 - 00:19:45:00
Stewart Fletcher
The
00:19:45:00 - 00:20:09:14
Stewart Fletcher
impetus is we can't solve them because we can't talk about them. Right. But once we can talk about them now, we can actually move forward. So that's kind of where the living room conversation comes in to give people the platform and the structure to talk about these really heavy, often very personal issues, but in a way where they can feel comfortable and safe and listened to.
00:20:09:16 - 00:20:09:20
Wilk Wilkinson
That’s right.
00:20:09:20 - 00:20:10:18
Wilk Wilkinson
I mean,
00:20:10:18 - 00:20:18:15
Wilk Wilkinson
it takes me in my mind right to the work that I do with Braver Angels. Right? I mean, structures, yeah, is a big part of that success model.
00:20:18:15 - 00:20:29:02
Wilk Wilkinson
Because when, when people when. Well, let's, let's let's just break it down to the basics and then I want to hear more about, like, you know, kind of structure.
00:20:29:04 - 00:20:45:17
Wilk Wilkinson
So some people understand it a little bit more. But but one of the greatest things about that structure is providing people with the, I guess, the knowledge or the confirmation that they're going to come into a structured environment where it's,
00:20:45:17 - 00:20:53:23
Wilk Wilkinson
for all intents and purposes, it's going to be a a safe space in the sense that they know that they are willing to be be able to speak.
00:20:54:04 - 00:21:00:18
Wilk Wilkinson
And we talk to Braver Angels about being able to speak freely, fully, without fear. But not only are they going to be able to speak,
00:21:00:18 - 00:21:12:01
Wilk Wilkinson
and not be spoken over, but but they are going to be speaking to somebody who's coming with the intent to listen, with the intent to hear what they have to say.
00:21:12:01 - 00:21:23:03
Wilk Wilkinson
I think that is a huge part of that model. It's a huge part of that structure. It allows people to to open up when they might not otherwise open up. And,
00:21:23:03 - 00:21:35:01
Wilk Wilkinson
and then it allows them to be comfortable enough to actually listen to because it's a two way street, right. So talk to me about LRC’s model, about their structure because,
00:21:35:01 - 00:21:36:17
Wilk Wilkinson
I mean, again, hugely important.
00:21:36:19 - 00:21:41:15
Wilk Wilkinson
And I love that that small intimate model, 4 to 6 people. It's beautiful.
00:21:41:15 - 00:21:48:00
Wilk Wilkinson
Talk to me about that, that structure. What are the what are some of these ground rules that he uses Stewart to,
00:21:48:00 - 00:21:56:16
Wilk Wilkinson
to kind of ensure that safe. I don't like necessarily using the phrase safe space, but, I mean, it really kind of is what it is.
00:21:57:03 - 00:22:15:17
Stewart Fletcher
So our main structure of living room conversations is based on the idea that if you can see someone as a person, you can talk about anything. Second, so we have three rounds. The first round is an introductory round, which is all about getting to know each other, not unlike,
00:22:15:17 - 00:22:16:12
Stewart Fletcher
where are you from?
00:22:16:12 - 00:22:41:22
Stewart Fletcher
What do you do for a living? Where are you? Do you like it? Like, not in a Smalltalk way, but in a very more intimate way, where we have conversations that build on questions of what are your hopes and concerns for your family, for your country? What would your how would your best friend describe who you are? What kind of purpose or mission drives you in your life?
00:22:42:00 - 00:23:09:20
Stewart Fletcher
These are the kinds of questions we start with in round one, so that people can see how much we all tend to have in common. I've had conversations with people very far right, very far left, and everywhere in between, and almost always do I hear the same kind of sentiments around their purpose, around their hopes. Everybody wants freedom, everybody wants safety, everybody tends to want their family to be doing well or their country to be protected.
00:23:09:22 - 00:23:30:19
Stewart Fletcher
But there are these kinds of recurring themes. So in round one, if we can establish that bedrock of understanding and then we go to round two, which is kind of the the topic round, that's when we whatever the conversation topic, is one of our most trending ones right now is immigration. And so you'll go through questions related to immigration.
00:23:30:21 - 00:23:57:06
Stewart Fletcher
But instead of being this kind of fact based debate, like questions of like, what percentage of our population is ever going to be immigrants really take jobs here. And so they do like, what are the crime rates, those kinds of things are helpful, but they're not really useful living room conversations in building that kind of trust. So instead we focus on experience based questions, questions that make you answer with a story,
00:23:57:06 - 00:24:00:13
Stewart Fletcher
with something you know, like in your life.
00:24:00:13 - 00:24:03:08
Stewart Fletcher
What has been your relationship with immigration?
00:24:03:08 - 00:24:19:08
Stewart Fletcher
That kind of question opens up a whole different can of worms. Now instead of me saying, oh, I, you know, I fall this side of the line or that's a line. Now I'm talking about my childhood, now I'm talking about my parents or my neighbors or people who I know who immigrated this country.
00:24:19:10 - 00:24:22:12
Stewart Fletcher
And that allows us to connect as people.
00:24:22:13 - 00:24:24:02
Wilk Wilkinson
Absolutely. Yep.
00:24:24:04 - 00:24:44:23
Stewart Fletcher
Yep. And all of this is kind of wrapped in, like I mentioned before, the conversation agreements. We have six of them. The first three are the most fundamental. It's the first one is be curious and listen to understand, like you were saying with braver angels, like the promise that somebody else is going to be listening to you.
00:24:44:23 - 00:24:48:04
Stewart Fletcher
Comes with the promise that you are going to be listening to them.
00:24:48:04 - 00:24:55:02
Stewart Fletcher
Yeah. This mutual respect which goes into our second one which is show respect and suspend judgment.
00:24:55:04 - 00:24:55:23
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah.
00:24:56:01 - 00:25:18:05
Stewart Fletcher
One of the things I love about that is it doesn't say get rid of judgment, like you were saying at the beginning. It's like we're not trying to get everyone to agree. That's not our goal. Our goal is, hey, let's give judgment. You know, a timer. Let's get let's give it a bit of a fuse. And if I said something, you know, today because words are so
00:25:18:05 - 00:25:22:11
Stewart Fletcher
such a hotly debated political thing is someone use the wrong term.
00:25:22:13 - 00:25:24:04
Stewart Fletcher
You know, if I said,
00:25:24:04 - 00:25:26:22
Stewart Fletcher
illegal aliens versus, you know,
00:25:26:22 - 00:25:43:22
Stewart Fletcher
unhoused people that these kinds of phrases that we always have that are slightly different depending on your political agenda, you can suspend judgment for a second instead of going, you use the right term. Now I'm going to discard everything he says. Wait a minute. See what they have to say.
00:25:43:22 - 00:25:51:12
Stewart Fletcher
Listen with that curiosity, because maybe they're going to say the same thing you believe in. Yeah, just.
00:25:51:14 - 00:25:53:01
Wilk Wilkinson
Just hugely important.
00:25:53:03 - 00:25:55:16
Stewart Fletcher
Just barely. I had a funny conversation.
00:25:55:16 - 00:26:15:21
Stewart Fletcher
It was not like conversations with a whole bunch of strangers. There's, like, ten different strangers. And a guy jumped on the call who was an elderly gentleman with a big white beard, glasses with a thick southern accent. He was from South Carolina. Okay. And throughout the course of the call, one of the women on the call called herself out, which I thought was very funny.
00:26:15:21 - 00:26:37:13
Stewart Fletcher
She said. When I jumped on this call, I had assumed that that gentleman with the southern accent, the beard, was a huge Trump supporter. I just assumed it based off nothing that he said based off just the way he looked on his camera. And I really wanted to not listen to everything he had to say. And then she did like.
00:26:37:13 - 00:26:50:01
Stewart Fletcher
But I realized, like, that's not helpful. It's not useful. I had just made the snap judgment, and it was cool of her to call herself out for that kind of thing, because we all do it. Everybody makes us.
00:26:50:01 - 00:26:52:03
Wilk Wilkinson
Introspection, and being able to,
00:26:52:03 - 00:27:08:07
Wilk Wilkinson
being able to reflect on your own bias when when you don't know that you maybe even necessarily had a bias in that in that way. Right? I think that's an incredibly I, that's that's a hugely important part of this whole process.
00:27:08:09 - 00:27:18:09
Stewart Fletcher
That because it allows people to look beyond the performance of a political identity and actually get to the root of the values of different political beliefs.
00:27:18:11 - 00:27:19:04
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah.
00:27:19:06 - 00:27:20:19
Stewart Fletcher
Yeah. I know, like here in Utah,
00:27:20:19 - 00:27:21:13
Stewart Fletcher
Utah was
00:27:21:13 - 00:27:40:06
Stewart Fletcher
really not shut down for Covid for very long. We barely had mask mandates or, you know, stay at home mandates were very, very short. And so when you see people today still wearing masks, the assumption often is, well, that person must be very liberal. That person must not be like the rest of the Utah.
00:27:40:08 - 00:28:00:07
Stewart Fletcher
But those kinds of judgments aren't very useful in the long run, because it could be like me that I have an autoimmune disease. They could be that they're feeling sick that day, and they still have masks in their home because they want to protect others. It could be a million different reasons. Yeah, the jumping to judgment is just very destructive.
00:28:00:09 - 00:28:05:19
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah, that jumping to judgment does not produce good fruit. I mean, it just really doesn't,
00:28:05:19 - 00:28:06:13
Wilk Wilkinson
we,
00:28:06:13 - 00:28:09:21
Wilk Wilkinson
we often just like the gal on that call,
00:28:09:21 - 00:28:13:14
Wilk Wilkinson
was telling you, Stewart, I, you know, she she says,
00:28:13:14 - 00:28:21:08
Wilk Wilkinson
you know, I thought this way about this person, and I. And I didn't want to listen to anything that he said.
00:28:21:10 - 00:28:26:00
Wilk Wilkinson
But but then she pushed through that and was able to,
00:28:26:00 - 00:28:27:17
Wilk Wilkinson
obviously realize
00:28:27:17 - 00:28:40:11
Wilk Wilkinson
something more. And I think the most important lesson about that is the fact that that she was able to look at herself critically and say, hey, you know, what would I have missed had I stuck with my initial,
00:28:40:11 - 00:28:43:00
Wilk Wilkinson
assessment of who this person is?
00:28:43:02 - 00:28:47:04
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah. So, so, so these, these types of structures,
00:28:47:04 - 00:28:58:19
Wilk Wilkinson
Stewart, are, are so incredibly important. I mean, you start with, like you said, you start in these in these LRC sessions with what I would call the pro humanity footing, right. Where, where do,
00:28:58:19 - 00:29:01:08
Wilk Wilkinson
where do we want to be? Where do we want our family to be?
00:29:01:08 - 00:29:28:00
Wilk Wilkinson
What? You know, we want to we want a warm, bed to sleep in at night. We want food, we want security, we want freedom. These are all things that all human beings with. With. Everything's got exceptions, obviously, but, I mean, that's the pro humanity stance, right? All of these things are things that almost all human beings want to but want to have for them in their families, that pro humanity stance.
00:29:28:06 - 00:29:46:23
Wilk Wilkinson
Once you start there, you build a foundation on which you can build almost anything. And I think that's a beautiful thing. And then going right into to step two with the lived experience, how is your lived experience going to, or how has your lived experience rather,
00:29:46:23 - 00:29:52:18
Wilk Wilkinson
affected the way that you feel about this particular situation? Hugely important.
00:29:52:20 - 00:29:54:20
Wilk Wilkinson
I mean, just those two alone,
00:29:54:20 - 00:30:22:08
Wilk Wilkinson
will get you further in a conversation than than almost anything that happened. I would say almost anything that happens online, I, I wasn't sure exactly where I was going with that sentence, but the way that I see so much in this poisonous and toxic internet ecosystem that so many people spend so much time in, those are two things that we just don't see enough of in our general conversations that pro humanity footing, and that.
00:30:22:14 - 00:30:29:10
Wilk Wilkinson
How has your lived experience led you to where you are for a position on this particular thing? Incredible.
00:30:29:10 - 00:30:30:00
Stewart Fletcher
Yeah.
00:30:30:02 - 00:30:32:03
Wilk Wilkinson
I mean, just very good stuff.
00:30:32:05 - 00:30:46:09
Stewart Fletcher
I mean, I know just recently I commented on some Instagram news post about how I, I can't remember the exact story, but Trump is cutting budgets to PBS and people are saying,
00:30:46:09 - 00:31:07:18
Stewart Fletcher
well, Netflix is going to buy up the rights to Sesame Street to keep it going kind of thing. And my comment was, oh, I hope that Netflix has a free tier then for families, the kinds of families that need access to PBS, to be able to access it for free, instead of having to sign up for the, you know, whatever the new price is per month.
00:31:07:19 - 00:31:33:13
Stewart Fletcher
And some guy commented back to me, he said, you're okay with the Killing Elmo because you're okay with them killing people in Gaza. And I was like that extrapolation like I said nothing about anything. I didn't even say I was okay with them killing Elmo. You know, I just said, well, I hope Netflix has a free tier. It's just like, completely out of left field.
00:31:33:13 - 00:31:53:14
Stewart Fletcher
What you're saying is like very like not it's what? No. No pro human, no personal experience, no trying to understand. Literally just jumping to as vitriolic as you possibly can be. Yeah. So that yeah, that kind of mentality is what we're fighting against. And with braver angels, with living room conversations, with the whole bridging space.
00:31:53:16 - 00:31:58:11
Wilk Wilkinson
Yes, yes. And it really it really comes down to,
00:31:58:11 - 00:32:03:02
Wilk Wilkinson
like you said in the beginning of this conversation, Stewart, curiosity,
00:32:03:02 - 00:32:10:10
Wilk Wilkinson
I mean curiosity, having a genuine curiosity for what your fellow human being has done,
00:32:10:10 - 00:32:16:19
Wilk Wilkinson
you know, to to get to where they are on a particular thing. We're not looking for some. At least I'm not.
00:32:16:19 - 00:32:19:06
Wilk Wilkinson
Again, I go back to what I say quite often.
00:32:19:10 - 00:32:25:16
Wilk Wilkinson
I'm not looking to change minds. I'm looking to open them, you know? And the only way that I know,
00:32:25:16 - 00:32:28:09
Wilk Wilkinson
works almost every time,
00:32:28:09 - 00:32:31:00
Wilk Wilkinson
to open minds and,
00:32:31:00 - 00:32:35:01
Wilk Wilkinson
build upon that curiosity muscle is to,
00:32:35:01 - 00:32:42:07
Wilk Wilkinson
show people that I have a genuine curiosity for them and what they, what they're about, who they are.
00:32:42:09 - 00:32:43:15
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah. So,
00:32:43:15 - 00:32:48:15
Wilk Wilkinson
Stewart, this is this has been a fantastic conversation. I really appreciate you coming on,
00:32:48:15 - 00:32:59:02
Wilk Wilkinson
to here to to share a little bit about living room conversations. Where can people learn more about, like, living room conversations and,
00:32:59:02 - 00:33:03:21
Wilk Wilkinson
and then we'll, we'll kind of kind of wrap this one up with some parting words from you.
00:33:03:23 - 00:33:32:04
Stewart Fletcher
Okay. Sounds great. Yeah. So living room conversations. We are a national organization so you can find local conversations basically in any city or state across the nation. We have living room conversations.org, which is our central hub. So you can find all of our resources where you can find communities near you. You can also find us on basically every social media platform, our Instagram and our LinkedIn or Facebook or all living room convo.
00:33:32:06 - 00:33:44:09
Stewart Fletcher
And so you can find those across whichever one you choose to use. And we'd be we'd be happy to connect and to hear from anybody who wants to have conversations in their community.
00:33:44:11 - 00:33:46:02
Wilk Wilkinson
Beautiful thing man. Anybody,
00:33:46:02 - 00:33:48:12
Wilk Wilkinson
anybody promoting the idea of,
00:33:48:12 - 00:33:50:09
Wilk Wilkinson
of productive conversations and,
00:33:50:09 - 00:34:00:10
Wilk Wilkinson
and how we can have better conversations, curious conversations. Certainly. A friend of mine, Stewart Fletcher, living room conversations. I do appreciate you. And,
00:34:00:10 - 00:34:03:01
Wilk Wilkinson
take care of yourself, brother.
00:34:03:03 - 00:34:05:23
Stewart Fletcher
All right. Thank you.
00:34:05:23 - 00:34:35:19
Wilk Wilkinson
Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate The Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together, so please take a moment to visit Braver angels.org and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divides.
00:34:35:21 - 00:34:59:03
Wilk Wilkinson
This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friends, I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
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