Send Wilk a text with your feedback!
“The end is reconciliation; the end is redemption; the end is the creation of the Beloved Community.” – Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
In this powerful episode of Derate The Hate, Wilk sits down with Rev. Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery — known to many as Dr. TLC — a trailblazing “pastologist” who masterfully blends the disciplines of psychology and ministry to guide people toward healing, transformation, and authentic connection.
From the pulpit to the counseling room, from executive coaching to community leadership, Dr. TLC has spent decades bridging divides, dismantling racism, and empowering leaders to lead with both courage and compassion.
In this conversation, she shares her Sacred Intelligence framework — a transformational model built on three interconnected relationships:
✅ Sacred Motive – Looking inward to uncover your deeper “why” for leading change. What drives you to dismantle racism or bridge divides? How does it reflect your values and who you are at your core?
✅ Self~ish Mindset – Breaking free from fear, shame, and conditioned thinking that keep us from authentic dialogue and courageous action.
✅ Shared Movement – Committing to ongoing, meaningful engagement across racial lines to build genuine relationships and collective momentum for justice and unity.
💡 Healing From the Inside Out – Why personal transformation is the foundation for dismantling systemic racism.
🔍 Uncovering Unconscious Bias – Moving beyond guilt and defensiveness toward curiosity and growth.
❤️ Choosing Love Over Hate – How spiritual grounding empowers us to respond to injustice without being consumed by anger.
🏛 Leadership With Integrity – What it means to lead in ways that honor the sacred while embracing shared humanity.
🌍 From Dialogue to Action – How to take bridge-building beyond conversation into real-world change.
Dr. TLC holds degrees from Howard University (B.S.), Hofstra University (Ph.D.), and Yale University (Master of Divinity). She is:
✝ Pastor of Martin Luther King Jr. Community Presbyterian Church
🧠 Licensed Psychologist
📢 Powerhouse Speaker & Retreat Leader
📖 Author of:
Dismantling Racism: Healing Separation From the Inside Out
In Quietness, Confidence, & Strength
Sacred Intelligence: The Essence of Sacred, Selfish & Shared Relationships
🏢 Interim Executive Director of the Healing Racism Institute in Springfield
She specializes in coaching high-impact leaders committed to social transformation, helping them create inclusive environments, dismantle systemic barriers, and cultivate authentic cross-cultural relationships.
🔗 Website: sacredintelligence.com
📘 Facebook: facebook.com/terrlyncurryavery
💼 LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/dr-terrlyn-l-curry-avery
📸 Instagram: instagram.com/revdrtlc
This episode of Derate The Hate is produced in collaboration with Braver Angels — America’s largest cross-partisan, grassroots organization working to bridge the political divide and foster a more united country.
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The Derate The Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels — America’s largest grassroots, cross-partisan organization working toward civic renewal and bridging partisan divides. Learn more: BraverAngels.org
Welcome to the Derate The Hate Podcast!
*The views expressed by Wilk, his guest hosts &/or guests on the Derate The Hate podcast are their own and should not be attributed to any organization they may otherwise be affiliated with.
Transcript is AI generated and may contain errors
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:27:11
Wilk Wilkinson
Doctor King taught us that darkness cannot drive out darkness. Only light can do that. And hate cannot drive out hate. Only love could do that. In this episode of Derate the Hate, I am joined by Reverend Doctor Lynn Curry Avery, known to many as doctor TLC, to unpack how spiritual consciousness and emotional intelligence can fuel the movement for unity.
00:00:27:11 - 00:00:34:17
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
when people make the choice to say, I want to be better, I want to do differently.
00:00:34:19 - 00:00:50:20
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
Your greatest teachers will come to you. God, the universe source, whatever people call it, will send you the resources and the people that you need. And that's why you have to have that sacred relationship.
00:00:50:20 - 00:01:04:01
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
I always say to people, I don't care if you're sacred relationship. Are the trees out there? But if that is the place that you go and you find your grounding and you sit and you meditate and you experience,
00:01:04:01 - 00:01:10:08
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
clarity and guidance, you've got to have something that is your foundation.
00:01:10:10 - 00:01:12:02
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
Otherwise you give in to hate,
00:01:12:03 - 00:01:15:05
Wilk Wilkinson
I want to transition our conversation a little bit,
00:01:15:05 - 00:01:19:11
Wilk Wilkinson
into something that that you've also talked about and that's,
00:01:19:11 - 00:01:20:12
Wilk Wilkinson
bridging,
00:01:20:12 - 00:01:21:14
Wilk Wilkinson
racial divides
00:01:21:16 - 00:01:49:15
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
It is about who do you want to be in 2025? And as a leader, who do you want to serve in 2025? Because you can see that racism still exists. So that selfish mindset is about coming out of the conditioning that we've had, so that any time we start talking about race, people get their hackles up and they want to defend and say, I'm not racist.
00:01:49:15 - 00:02:18:02
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
I'm not this, I'm not that. Just go into a posture of listening and observing and questioning, legitimately questioning. Because in my experience, when you talk to black, black and brown folks legitimately about their concerns, we want to be able to share. And we're not going to think you're racist just because you're asking the question, particularly if you're saying, listen, I'm asking this question because I genuinely want to know.
00:02:18:08 - 00:02:28:03
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
So then the shared piece becomes, then how do we now take this out into the world and heal the world? What can I do on my sphere of influence?
00:02:29:04 - 00:02:48:15
Wilk Wilkinson
Together, we reflect on the deeper calling to bridge the racial divide not just through dialog, but through intentional, soul centered action. If you believe real change starts within, this conversation will challenge and inspire you. Let's roll that intro and get into it.
00:02:48:15 - 00:03:38:00
Wilk Wilkinson
Welcome back, my friends, for the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog. And those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross partisan organization working towards civic renewal.
00:03:38:02 - 00:04:05:06
Wilk Wilkinson
This podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ.
00:04:05:08 - 00:04:29:15
Wilk Wilkinson
Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the Hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Share it with a friend and visit Braver angels.org to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partisan divide.
00:04:29:17 - 00:04:38:11
Wilk Wilkinson
Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it.
00:04:39:10 - 00:05:10:04
Wilk Wilkinson
Doctor Martin Luther King Jr once spoke of the beloved community a vision of reconciliation, redemption, and a shared humanity. My guest this week has built her entire life around making that vision a reality. Reverend doctor TLC, Terrlyn Curry Avery calls herself a past ologist because she's both a licensed psychologist and an ordained minister. She's got two degrees Howard, Hofstra, Yale.
00:05:10:06 - 00:05:43:20
Wilk Wilkinson
But more importantly, she's got the heart, the wisdom, and the drive to help people heal from the inside out. Her sacred Intelligence framework challenges us to honor the sacred, embrace ourselves, and truly live out our shared humanity. Whether she's coaching high impact leaders, pastoring the Martin Luther King Jr Community Presbyterian Church, or leading the Healing Racism Institute, her mission is clear dismantle the barriers that divide us and create spaces where real connection thrive.
00:05:43:22 - 00:06:00:12
Wilk Wilkinson
Today we're going to talk faith, race, healing, leadership and what it takes for each of us to step into that shared movement toward the beloved community Doctor King envision. This is going to be a powerful one, friends. So stick with me. Here we go.
00:06:00:12 - 00:06:07:01
Wilk Wilkinson
Doctor, Terrlyn Curry. Avery, so glad to see you today. Welcome to the Derate the Hate podcast.
00:06:07:03 - 00:06:09:21
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
Thank you, Wilk for having me.
00:06:09:23 - 00:06:19:22
Wilk Wilkinson
I'm grateful to see a doctor TLC, Reverend Doctor TLC right now. And, that is that is quite the title. I love it. And,
00:06:19:22 - 00:06:23:06
Wilk Wilkinson
and I want to start a conversation.
00:06:23:06 - 00:06:24:22
Wilk Wilkinson
Doctor TLC with
00:06:24:22 - 00:06:30:11
Wilk Wilkinson
a title that I have not seen before. So I would like you to start by telling the,
00:06:30:11 - 00:06:34:21
Wilk Wilkinson
the listeners what is a past ologist.
00:06:34:23 - 00:06:59:22
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
So if I can just tell you really quickly a funny story. I am a licensed psychologist, and I, I've been doing psychology for years, and God just actually has a really good sense of humor. And, and so while I, I finished, out, I'm working and God called me into ministry and I'm like, what? I don't want to work with church people because I think church people are crazy.
00:06:59:23 - 00:07:04:04
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
Now, mind you, I've grown up in church all my life. But I said, God,
00:07:04:04 - 00:07:32:16
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
I'll do whatever it is you want me to do. And so I became a pastor. And what I found is, is that I really just merged the best of psychology and pastoring together. I don't proselytize when I talk to people, but I can talk to people from both that psychological place and that spiritual place to get us to the point that that we need to be at, for healing or for doing whatever work it is that we're meant to do out in this world.
00:07:32:17 - 00:07:34:08
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
So that's.
00:07:34:08 - 00:07:35:08
Wilk Wilkinson
Wonderful.
00:07:35:10 - 00:07:36:10
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
Yeah.
00:07:36:12 - 00:07:55:04
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah. That's wonderful, because when I started looking at your background and I saw pastor, I just I'm like, I don't know, I'm not even sure what that is, but I'm definitely looking forward to hearing it. And I think that's beautiful that you combine your pastoral work with your psychology work and being able to meld those things. I mean, it's it's wonderful.
00:07:55:06 - 00:07:56:18
Wilk Wilkinson
Those of us that that,
00:07:56:18 - 00:08:07:16
Wilk Wilkinson
are blessed to do the work of helping others and being able to, to to take our passion and turn it into purpose and, and help other people,
00:08:07:16 - 00:08:16:20
Wilk Wilkinson
succeed in their life is just, in my opinion, just an incredible blessing. And so, so one of the things that I've seen,
00:08:16:20 - 00:08:18:23
Wilk Wilkinson
you talk about, in fact, that your website,
00:08:18:23 - 00:08:22:03
Wilk Wilkinson
the title of your website is Sacred Intelligence.
00:08:22:05 - 00:08:24:10
Wilk Wilkinson
Sacred intelligence.com.
00:08:24:10 - 00:08:38:14
Wilk Wilkinson
So, doctor TLC, do me a favor and, and talk to me about what sacred intelligence then is and and how your work as a as a pastor, as a psychologist past.
00:08:38:14 - 00:08:46:13
Wilk Wilkinson
Just how did that lead you to to sacred intelligence and. Yeah, let's learn a little bit more about that.
00:08:46:15 - 00:08:50:18
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
So, so the name Sacred Intelligence was actually given to me by,
00:08:50:18 - 00:08:56:15
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
a woman who has become a very dear friend. But we were doing some coaching together, and I was explaining to her,
00:08:56:15 - 00:09:00:06
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
my passion for psychology, my love for God. And,
00:09:00:06 - 00:09:10:16
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
and she knew I was had just recently become a minister. And so I said, give me a name for my business, help me, help me come up with this name.
00:09:10:16 - 00:09:18:10
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
And so really, if you think about psychology, the study of people and using your, intelligence,
00:09:18:10 - 00:09:35:12
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
their psychological tests that you do all the time, and just using that part of yourself to show up as your best self in the world and then taking that sacred part of yourself. So for me, sacred intelligence. Then once she gave me the name, I just loved it instantly.
00:09:35:14 - 00:10:05:23
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
And even there were others who didn't think so much about the name, but I said, no, that's the name for me. And that was me tapping into my sacred intelligence to actually say, yes, I know what's best for me. So sacred intelligence as a definition is our ability to go within, to tap into that divine part of us that helps us to make choices, intelligent choices that will manifest our greatness while we're helping other people to do the same.
00:10:06:01 - 00:10:06:13
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
So,
00:10:06:13 - 00:10:08:08
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
oftentimes Wilk, when
00:10:08:08 - 00:10:28:10
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
we're seeking an answer, we'll go ask 50 friends or that coach or that other person that we think has all the answers. But really, if we just take that moment to go deep within to our own sacred source, the answer is already there. So that's where sacred intelligence comes from.
00:10:28:12 - 00:10:28:19
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah.
00:10:28:19 - 00:10:34:21
Wilk Wilkinson
And I love the point that's being made there because, a lot of times people don't realize,
00:10:34:21 - 00:10:35:20
Wilk Wilkinson
how
00:10:35:20 - 00:10:41:08
Wilk Wilkinson
we can find the answers that we're seeking if we look deep enough inside ourselves.
00:10:41:08 - 00:10:48:12
Wilk Wilkinson
One of the big things that I like to talk about is, is, is personal accountability, personal responsibility.
00:10:48:12 - 00:10:50:07
Wilk Wilkinson
and I often get asked,
00:10:50:07 - 00:10:55:09
Wilk Wilkinson
how does this thing how does it start? I mean, what do you got to do? What's the starting point?
00:10:55:09 - 00:10:57:08
Wilk Wilkinson
when you're trying to,
00:10:57:08 - 00:11:05:07
Wilk Wilkinson
get better or be better or be a better person and things like that. And I'm like, well, it really starts with a lot of introspection, right?
00:11:05:12 - 00:11:10:12
Wilk Wilkinson
Self-reflection. And looking at yourself to, to figure out,
00:11:10:12 - 00:11:13:10
Wilk Wilkinson
who you are or what you want to be,
00:11:13:10 - 00:11:19:18
Wilk Wilkinson
that kind of thing. For me and my own journey, doctor TLC, it was it was one of these things where,
00:11:19:18 - 00:11:30:01
Wilk Wilkinson
and people ask you this and it's an it's a, it's an integral part of my story is, is the idea that for so long I carry it around so much anger.
00:11:30:01 - 00:11:38:00
Wilk Wilkinson
I was just I had anger and animus from just a number of different things growing up. But after a while I just got
00:11:38:00 - 00:11:42:10
Wilk Wilkinson
sick and tired of being angry and and breaking things
00:11:42:10 - 00:11:49:08
Wilk Wilkinson
and hurting myself and, and I got to the point where I'm like, the answer is not going to be found in anybody else.
00:11:49:08 - 00:12:04:02
Wilk Wilkinson
The answers are going to be found in me. It's up to me to figure that out. And and a lot of that comes from that introspection. So, so unpack that a little bit, if you would, please. Because a lot of people just they don't quite get it and they don't know where to start.
00:12:04:02 - 00:12:07:11
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
I think that's beautiful that you're saying that
00:12:07:11 - 00:12:30:02
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
because obviously as a psychologist, I work with people around taking a look at yourself and also and people come in angry, upset and want to blame the world and they want to blame everybody else. But then, right, right. And I'm not saying that there aren't things that happened to us that were outside of our control.
00:12:30:02 - 00:12:54:18
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
So I want to say that to your listener. We may not be able to control everything that happens to us, but we can control our response to it. And so when something has happened to us and it can be something traumatizing that happened to us, we get to choose how we're going to show up. We get to choose whether that thing is going to make us so angry that we're just going to hate the world.
00:12:54:20 - 00:13:02:19
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
We get to choose whether we are going to respond in fear, and whether our reactions are going to be,
00:13:02:19 - 00:13:22:09
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
reactive rather than reflective. So when I think about sacred intelligence and tapping into that inner source, each of us has this what I say divinity that's inside of us. We have this sacred part of us because the way we act as humans, there has to be something more than this, right?
00:13:22:12 - 00:13:40:00
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
We have to be these spiritual beings just having this human experience. So first, if we learn to sort of tap into that and connect with our higher self, that is the thing that will help us to engage in what I call selfish,
00:13:40:00 - 00:13:52:23
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
relationship or selfish mindsets, depending on which book of mine you're looking at. But my whole thing is about the three important relationships sacred, selfish, and shared.
00:13:53:01 - 00:14:27:13
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
And so the selfish piece is self-examination, right? It is really about taking a look at how am I showing up in this situation? What are my thoughts? What are my fears? What am I emotions? What? What are my behaviors? I don't have to like what's happening to me, but if I can get to the point where I say I have a choice, and sometimes those choices may not be the best for us, they may not be the safest for us now.
00:14:27:13 - 00:14:48:16
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
And I'll put that into context, because sometimes our choices are walking out of a dangerous situation, and we know walking out of that dangerous situation may cause some harm, but it's a choice that we get to make for ourselves. And so I really want to give agency to the individual and not
00:14:48:16 - 00:14:50:22
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
be in this place of a victim.
00:14:51:00 - 00:15:04:13
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
And I want to be clear, I am not blaming victims. I want to say that loud and clear. I'm not blaming victims, but once something has happened to you? How are you going to show up after that? Right.
00:15:04:13 - 00:15:05:11
Wilk Wilkinson
Absolutely,
00:15:05:11 - 00:15:16:10
Wilk Wilkinson
Viktor Frankl, in his book, “A Man’s Search for Meaning”, talks about that being the ultimate freedom, right? The ability to to choose our response. It's not a matter. And people know, people,
00:15:16:10 - 00:15:18:17
Wilk Wilkinson
long term listeners know,
00:15:18:17 - 00:15:23:09
Wilk Wilkinson
I talk a lot about that. It's not about what happens to us in life, but how we react to it.
00:15:23:11 - 00:15:36:03
Wilk Wilkinson
That really sets us apart. It's what makes the difference right? Stephen Covey talked about responsibility, our ability to choose our response. That's and how important that is.
00:15:36:03 - 00:15:40:00
Wilk Wilkinson
And was for my own mental journey, doctor TLC.
00:15:40:00 - 00:15:42:05
Wilk Wilkinson
I can't even put into,
00:15:42:05 - 00:15:54:05
Wilk Wilkinson
into words or cannot properly quantify how important that one thing is. So how we show up for a situation, how we deal with that situation.
00:15:54:08 - 00:16:20:03
Wilk Wilkinson
you talk about victimhood and the idea of being a victim and and how people and not and this is not victim blaming, victim shaming, but what it is, is do we want to allow as an individual, do we want to remain in victim status or do we want to overcome, overpower the victim status and move on in a better way than we did?
00:16:20:05 - 00:16:25:11
Wilk Wilkinson
From the beginning? It's it that the importance of that can't be overstated.
00:16:25:13 - 00:16:37:14
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
And, and really continuing to function through the healing journey. You see, that's the thing. Choosing to show up for yourself even as you're healing, as you're talking.
00:16:37:14 - 00:16:51:05
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
Back in 2020. So I pastor church, and it's a predominantly black church, and it's named after Martin Luther King. So if you wondered whether the church is black, you can just look at the name and say, oh, yes, it's a black church.
00:16:51:10 - 00:16:54:14
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
But I tell you this because in 2020,
00:16:54:14 - 00:16:58:13
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
someone burned our church down as a result of a hate crime, right?
00:16:58:15 - 00:16:59:05
Wilk Wilkinson
Oh, my goodness.
00:16:59:05 - 00:17:08:04
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
Yeah, it's it's painful. It's painful to know that someone wants to burn your church down because of the color of your skin.
00:17:08:06 - 00:17:37:22
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
I can choose to show up in hatred, or I can choose to say, I know who I am, I know who’s I am, and really, what you did is based on your thinking, your belief. I'm not going to internalize that, nor am I going to let it create hate inside of me, because I have work to do out here, and the work that I do out in the world is based on love.
00:17:38:03 - 00:18:05:17
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
And if I am, if I'm so angry about what happened, I can't move on to to heal and I can't move on to do the work that I need to do, it's okay for me to be upset about it. I'm not saying we can't be angry. I'm not saying it can't be. We can't go through the pain. What I am saying, though, is I get to choose if I'm going to still show up in love for myself and in my case, love for God.
00:18:05:17 - 00:18:22:11
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
Because as a reverend, I'm I'm very passionate about the higher level of consciousness, which I call love. People call God by many names, but I call God love. And so I can't. I can't preach one thing and then show up as another. Right?
00:18:22:13 - 00:18:25:15
Wilk Wilkinson
Absolutely right. Absolutely right. No. And I, I,
00:18:25:15 - 00:18:28:03
Wilk Wilkinson
thank you for sharing that story with me. I,
00:18:28:03 - 00:18:33:07
Wilk Wilkinson
when I think of Doctor King and I think about his, his position on hate and,
00:18:33:07 - 00:18:33:19
Wilk Wilkinson
he says,
00:18:33:19 - 00:18:39:12
Wilk Wilkinson
you can't defeat darkness with darkness. Only light can do that and you cannot defeat hate with hate.
00:18:39:17 - 00:19:16:02
Wilk Wilkinson
Only love can do that. Right. And the reality about that statement is far too often people will allow their hatred, the the ugliness. And so, I mean. The ugliness that comes along with hatred and people allowing hatred to build within them is, is it's one of the saddest things to, to see in another human being. Right? That we can only defeat love or don't only defeat hate with love.
00:19:16:04 - 00:19:16:07
Wilk Wilkinson
And
00:19:16:07 - 00:19:18:12
Wilk Wilkinson
the importance of what you're talking about there.
00:19:18:12 - 00:19:20:02
Wilk Wilkinson
Doctor TLC is,
00:19:20:02 - 00:19:27:01
Wilk Wilkinson
it also makes me think of another story from another guest that's been on the Derate The Hate podcast before, Chris Singleton, who's,
00:19:27:01 - 00:19:33:02
Wilk Wilkinson
whose mother was was murdered in the Mother Emanuel church, shooting by the by the white supremacists in, in,
00:19:33:02 - 00:19:35:09
Wilk Wilkinson
North Carolina years ago.
00:19:35:11 - 00:19:57:18
Wilk Wilkinson
And and it's just he talks a lot about forgiveness and our ability to to not allow. And it's it's it's not in any way condoning the behavior. It's not in any way, giving pass to the person who's done something, but the power of forgiveness and love and having love within our hearts,
00:19:57:18 - 00:20:03:05
Wilk Wilkinson
is, is the only way to move beyond the ugliness of some of those things.
00:20:03:09 - 00:20:04:09
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
Absolutely. And
00:20:04:09 - 00:20:23:02
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
Wilk, as you're talking, I'm thinking about two things. So one of the, the greatest theologians that of that I love to read is Doctor Howard Thurman. And he talks about the weapons that we use to, to, to fight things. And he said, actually, the greatest weapon in the world is love, because you get to choose how you're going to show up.
00:20:23:02 - 00:20:43:12
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
But the other thing I'm reminded of as you're talking and you're quoting all of these, these authors and scholars, when we decide that we're going to show up differently in the world and we're going to heal and we're going to walk through the healing journey,
00:20:43:12 - 00:20:52:07
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
in this place of love, it matters who we hang around, and it matters who we read and what we take into our system.
00:20:52:11 - 00:21:16:00
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
So I can imagine when you were at your angriest, you were not reading Stephen Covey or Martin Luther King or or Viktor Frankl. Yeah, you probably weren't reading them. Or if you were, if you weren't absorbing what they were saying. And so when people make the choice to say, I want to be better, I want to do differently.
00:21:16:02 - 00:21:32:03
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
Your greatest teachers will come to you. God, the universe source, whatever people call it, will send you the resources and the people that you need. And that's why you have to have that sacred relationship.
00:21:32:03 - 00:21:45:08
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
I always say to people, I don't care if you're sacred relationship. Are the trees out there? But if that is the place that you go and you find your grounding and you sit and you meditate and you experience,
00:21:45:08 - 00:21:51:15
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
clarity and guidance, you've got to have something that is your foundation.
00:21:51:17 - 00:22:17:09
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
Otherwise you give in to hate, you give in to fear. And we know that when you give in to those things, it makes you you make really poor choices, not just for health but for everybody else. And that's where my shared relationships come in. To know that I don't exist as an island. And what I do and say really matters, particularly as a pastor.
00:22:17:09 - 00:22:21:22
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
I even when I don't think that I'm saying something that,
00:22:21:22 - 00:22:32:01
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
I might think is very flippant or just make a comment. People listen differently when you are a leader. That's right. And I think most of us would like to,
00:22:32:01 - 00:22:38:16
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
not own that responsibility as a leader. If we're not, like a pastor or a podcast host or whatever.
00:22:38:18 - 00:22:50:17
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
But if you're leading your family every day, you're leading your friends, you're leading communities. So I just want to invite people to think about how they want to show up in this world and show up for others.
00:22:50:19 - 00:22:51:11
Wilk Wilkinson
No. That's right.
00:22:51:11 - 00:22:54:01
Wilk Wilkinson
Absolutely right. How do you want to show up? How do you want it?
00:22:54:01 - 00:22:56:08
Wilk Wilkinson
what? And that's the thing is,
00:22:56:08 - 00:22:58:23
Wilk Wilkinson
is about leadership. And I don't think,
00:22:58:23 - 00:23:05:23
Wilk Wilkinson
a lot of people, unfortunately, they just don't understand that. I want to go back a little bit to,
00:23:05:23 - 00:23:08:14
Wilk Wilkinson
the part where where you you mentioned,
00:23:08:14 - 00:23:10:08
Wilk Wilkinson
what what we were taking in.
00:23:10:08 - 00:23:13:20
Wilk Wilkinson
What are you filling your cup with? Right. And and,
00:23:13:20 - 00:23:23:16
Wilk Wilkinson
at my angriest. No, I absolutely was not reading people like, like Stephen Covey and, and Viktor Frankl and, and and Martin Luther King Jr.
00:23:23:16 - 00:23:25:08
Wilk Wilkinson
One of the greatest things,
00:23:25:08 - 00:23:40:21
Wilk Wilkinson
doctor TLC that I've learned from doing this podcast and learned from doing my, my work with, with Braver Angels and, and being an advisor for the Pro Human Foundation and stuff like that, who you surround yourself with, who are,
00:23:40:21 - 00:23:44:02
Wilk Wilkinson
what are you filling your cup with?
00:23:44:03 - 00:23:48:23
Wilk Wilkinson
Because we, we cannot nurture and help others,
00:23:48:23 - 00:23:49:10
Wilk Wilkinson
with,
00:23:49:10 - 00:24:04:03
Wilk Wilkinson
with our cup if our cup is empty, if our cup is empty. If our world is ugly, it becomes very, very difficult, to to lead in a meaningful way and help other people to,
00:24:04:03 - 00:24:09:00
Wilk Wilkinson
avoid being overcome by hate and and taken by hate.
00:24:09:00 - 00:24:12:02
Wilk Wilkinson
I want to transition our conversation a little bit,
00:24:12:02 - 00:24:16:08
Wilk Wilkinson
into something that that you've also talked about and that's,
00:24:16:08 - 00:24:17:09
Wilk Wilkinson
bridging,
00:24:17:09 - 00:24:21:10
Wilk Wilkinson
racial divides and bridging, obviously, as part of,
00:24:21:10 - 00:24:29:11
Wilk Wilkinson
me working for Braver Angels and, and my work with the Pro Human Foundation, a lot of what I do is bridging divides and
00:24:29:17 - 00:24:38:03
Wilk Wilkinson
and how we show up for that, I think is incredibly important. And, and we are at a time in our country right now,
00:24:38:03 - 00:24:40:06
Wilk Wilkinson
that that is, is not divided.
00:24:40:06 - 00:24:51:11
Wilk Wilkinson
I don't think it's divided primarily on race by any means, but but we've got plenty of different divides that we are battling as a country, race obviously being one of them.
00:24:51:13 - 00:24:53:22
Wilk Wilkinson
Talk about how your work,
00:24:53:22 - 00:25:02:10
Wilk Wilkinson
translates into that bridge building space and how do you use that as a, as a leader, as a faith leader, as a
00:25:02:10 - 00:25:03:05
Wilk Wilkinson
psychologist.
00:25:03:05 - 00:25:14:00
Wilk Wilkinson
How are you taking your the, I guess, your background, your, your, your cup and, and helping to, to bridge divides,
00:25:14:00 - 00:25:15:01
Wilk Wilkinson
with what you do.
00:25:15:02 - 00:25:26:01
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
Yeah, that's a great question. So so for me, everything I do is built on three relationships sacred, selfish and shared. The ones that we have with with other folks. So,
00:25:26:01 - 00:25:44:19
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
I actually wrote a book on dismantling racism because I want to be a part of one taking down a racist system. But to healing racism. So if I start with sacred, I talk about what is your sacred motive?
00:25:44:21 - 00:25:47:17
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
So for in 2020, 2021,
00:25:47:17 - 00:25:55:00
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
as people were out on the streets, ra ra ra ra ra ra ra, you saw a lot of people giving money for d I
00:25:55:00 - 00:25:56:12
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
d I actually,
00:25:56:12 - 00:26:10:15
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
initiatives. And so one of the things that I said was that dismantling racism is not a sprint, it is actually a marathon. And so it it is something that you are choosing to engage in.
00:26:10:20 - 00:26:11:18
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
It can't be,
00:26:11:18 - 00:26:14:08
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
doing this for the optics. It can't be,
00:26:14:08 - 00:26:23:07
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
doing this on a day that I feel like doing this because honestly, when I do the work of dismantling racism, I don't always feel like it,
00:26:23:07 - 00:26:32:05
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
Right. I would rather be doing something else. But I think about what my sacred motive and my sacred motive for me is something much bigger than me.
00:26:32:05 - 00:27:00:09
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
Something much bigger than you. What am I called to do in this moment? And I don't want your listeners to think that it has to be doing a radio show, that it has to be protesting. It has to be because I used to do a radio show on dismantling racism and not everybody is going to do that. But what can you do in your own sphere of influence in terms of just listening to the sacred guide you for what that should be?
00:27:00:09 - 00:27:31:09
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
So what's your sacred motive then? The second thing I say is, so what is your selfish mindset? So when we think about selfish turning on the self to evaluate the self and say, what is my thinking? How have I been conditioned to think about race, particularly in America? How have I been conditioned to think about it? And have I been conditioned to say black people are lazy?
00:27:31:09 - 00:27:56:07
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
This is just an example. Or or like I've had people say to me, when you see the police shoot a black person, they'll say, well, why didn't they just do what the police said? And I'll say, but did you see them walking with their hands up? Like, what is your mindset that limits your ability to ask the questions that you need to ask to pay attention to what's going on?
00:27:56:10 - 00:28:12:00
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
Like I had friends to say to me, I didn't know racism was this bad until 2020. And I'm like, wait, really? Where where have you been all the other times? This isn't the first time that this happened. So the selfish mindset is really about,
00:28:12:00 - 00:28:20:14
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
coming out of those places of complacency or being fearful and not living in shame.
00:28:20:16 - 00:28:26:23
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
And I have to say that because the biggest challenge I have with my clients sometimes is
00:28:26:23 - 00:28:28:23
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
white clients in particular around,
00:28:28:23 - 00:28:39:15
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
dismantling racism is, is this idea of guilt and shame? I say, but that's not what it's about. It is about, how do you want to show up now? And I know people will say, well, that was my ancestors.
00:28:39:15 - 00:29:09:20
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
It wasn't me. It is not about that. It is about who do you want to be in 2025? And as a leader, who do you want to serve in 2025? Because you can see that racism still exists. So that selfish mindset is about coming out of the conditioning that we've had, so that any time we start talking about race, people get their hackles up and they want to defend and say, I'm not racist.
00:29:09:20 - 00:29:38:07
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
I'm not this, I'm not that. Just go into a posture of listening and observing and questioning, legitimately questioning. Because in my experience, when you talk to black, black and brown folks legitimately about their concerns, we want to be able to share. And we're not going to think you're racist just because you're asking the question, particularly if you're saying, listen, I'm asking this question because I genuinely want to know.
00:29:38:13 - 00:29:50:09
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
So then the shared piece becomes, then how do we now take this out into the world and heal the world? What can I do on my sphere of influence? So what can I do at church?
00:29:50:09 - 00:30:00:02
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
if I look around and I see all the parishioners or white or all the parishioners or black or Latino or whatever, and I want, want to bridge that gap, what do I need to do differently?
00:30:00:04 - 00:30:04:08
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
So for me, I see so many people who,
00:30:04:08 - 00:30:26:20
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
will say, well, there's nobody black in my neighborhood, there's nobody black at my church, there's nobody black in the associations that I'm at. Well, that's a problem, right? What can you do to remedy that? So that's how I take it. Take my love for humanity, God, psychology and all of that and do this work on dismantling racism.
00:30:26:20 - 00:30:39:18
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
And I'll tell you, Wilk, some days are some days are harder than others. But that's why I have my sacred source that I continue to go back to and I have my group of people who I know who are also doing this work,
00:30:40:01 - 00:30:44:00
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
people who want to derate the hate that's out there.
00:30:44:01 - 00:30:49:14
Wilk Wilkinson
Right? Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. I love how it keeps on coming back. And,
00:30:49:14 - 00:31:03:22
Wilk Wilkinson
the the, the, I guess the Trinity there, the sacred, the selfish, the shared and how you break those down. I think it it really brings it home and it makes it people are easier for people, at least it does for me,
00:31:03:22 - 00:31:05:23
Wilk Wilkinson
to, to understand,
00:31:05:23 - 00:31:10:04
Wilk Wilkinson
the importance of each one of those things, those three different pillars,
00:31:10:04 - 00:31:12:04
Wilk Wilkinson
of how we are going to,
00:31:12:04 - 00:31:13:20
Wilk Wilkinson
to, to address that thing,
00:31:13:20 - 00:31:14:07
Wilk Wilkinson
kind of,
00:31:14:07 - 00:31:17:20
Wilk Wilkinson
kind of diving in a little bit heavier on,
00:31:17:20 - 00:31:20:02
Wilk Wilkinson
something that you brought up and, and,
00:31:20:02 - 00:31:22:17
Wilk Wilkinson
thinking about unconscious bias,
00:31:22:17 - 00:31:27:01
Wilk Wilkinson
and people's inability to understand even,
00:31:27:01 - 00:31:38:09
Wilk Wilkinson
kind of not knowing what you don't know kind of thing. Right. And and I think it's important I think you make a very highly important point in the sense that,
00:31:38:09 - 00:31:42:03
Wilk Wilkinson
don't be afraid to ask questions,
00:31:42:03 - 00:32:05:21
Wilk Wilkinson
enter each enter each interaction, no matter who it's with, with genuine curiosity and, and and if there's something that's going on that, that, that you may think is out of place with you, just enter into that conversation with genuine curiosity and say, hey, this is this is where I'm feeling on this.
00:32:05:21 - 00:32:08:14
Wilk Wilkinson
I've obviously I've had a obviously,
00:32:08:14 - 00:32:10:17
Wilk Wilkinson
to to many of the listeners, but,
00:32:10:17 - 00:32:21:19
Wilk Wilkinson
but maybe not so obvious to the newer listeners. I've had an opportunity on this podcast, doctor TLC, to have some just absolutely incredible conversations with some of the most incredible,
00:32:21:19 - 00:32:28:00
Wilk Wilkinson
whether they be thought leaders or, or deradicalization experts or just,
00:32:28:00 - 00:32:28:18
Wilk Wilkinson
people,
00:32:28:18 - 00:32:30:17
Wilk Wilkinson
former white supremacists,
00:32:31:01 - 00:32:33:03
Wilk Wilkinson
race relations superheroes, like,
00:32:33:03 - 00:32:34:14
Wilk Wilkinson
like Daryl Davis and,
00:32:34:14 - 00:32:39:09
Wilk Wilkinson
and getting such a range of different perspectives on,
00:32:39:09 - 00:32:42:10
Wilk Wilkinson
what makes people think the things that they think,
00:32:42:10 - 00:32:44:02
Wilk Wilkinson
or people like Quay Hannah,
00:32:44:02 - 00:32:45:15
Wilk Wilkinson
who is somebody who,
00:32:45:15 - 00:32:57:02
Wilk Wilkinson
was never like an overt racist by any means, but came to the realization that after doing this American bus tour, that that he had these unconscious biases,
00:32:57:02 - 00:32:59:20
Wilk Wilkinson
that, that he just never knew he had.
00:32:59:20 - 00:33:00:17
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
and,
00:33:00:17 - 00:33:20:15
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
it's interesting because you said so much in there. We don't know what we don't know. Right? We don't know that we're being biased against person. You don't know that if you come up to me and say, can I touch your hair, that that's a very racist thing for you to say. Unless I educate you and say, no, you can't touch my hair, why would you want to touch my hair?
00:33:20:18 - 00:33:49:08
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
Or you don't know if you say you're so articulate that that's really not a compliment, even though you think it is, because why wouldn't I be articulate? Because everything has been based on white norms, and it has been based on how we've been socialized. So we have been socialized to think that the darker your skin is, the more deviant you are, the uneducated you are even around conversations as it relates to Dei.
00:33:49:10 - 00:34:19:09
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
People assume that we're in positions because we are black. For instance. That's an insult. You're telling me me having a PhD has nothing to do with me being in this position? So until we actually almost like a jolt people into saying, take a look at what you just said. And one of the things in my classes I do is really like push people to say, do you understand the question that you just asked?
00:34:19:11 - 00:34:23:22
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
Right. And so if we're doing it in a way where we will,
00:34:23:22 - 00:34:39:07
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
be open to receiving the feedback and know that we're all learning this lesson, I've been teaching dismantling racism for 30 years, in addition to everything else I've done, and I still learn different ways to dismantle,
00:34:39:07 - 00:34:47:23
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
racism. And I and I have to say, when you mentioned Daryl Davis's name, I was saying, well, that that would have been one way I would have not chosen to dismantle racism.
00:34:47:23 - 00:35:20:15
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
But see, his gift was doing what he did. My gift is doing something else. Right? So it's really, if we're going to go deeper, it really is about finding a person of color that you can have a conversation with and genuinely ask questions. But before you decide that you're going to just go out and get a black friend or a colleague, do some homework, read some books,
00:35:20:15 - 00:35:23:16
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
there are plenty of books out here that will,
00:35:23:16 - 00:35:28:09
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
help you to get to an understanding books by people of all color.
00:35:28:11 - 00:35:30:05
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
As a matter of fact,
00:35:30:05 - 00:35:41:07
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
join a program where you get to have some training on this. It's a choice that we make. As we started out at the beginning of the day, you don't have to choose ignorance. I have a very good,
00:35:41:07 - 00:35:44:09
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
friend who's also a psychologist, and she's,
00:35:44:09 - 00:35:47:16
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
a white woman, and she always says chosen ignorance.
00:35:47:18 - 00:35:55:20
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
You don't have to choose ignorance, but you have to move beyond feeling afraid in order to have the conversation.
00:35:55:22 - 00:35:58:09
Wilk Wilkinson
No, that's absolutely right. And that comes,
00:35:58:09 - 00:36:00:15
Wilk Wilkinson
that goes for for bridging all divides.
00:36:00:15 - 00:36:02:07
Wilk Wilkinson
Talked at TLC is,
00:36:02:07 - 00:36:14:22
Wilk Wilkinson
being in this bridge building space, doing this depolarization work that I do and I've been doing for quite some time now. One of the biggest things that we learn, and this is actually this is a this is a lesson that, that I, that I learned,
00:36:14:22 - 00:36:19:00
Wilk Wilkinson
primarily from Daryl Davis and the conversations that I've had him from him.
00:36:19:00 - 00:36:19:20
Wilk Wilkinson
But but,
00:36:19:20 - 00:36:22:09
Wilk Wilkinson
people fear that what they don't understand.
00:36:22:09 - 00:36:29:18
Wilk Wilkinson
Right? People fear that which they don't understand, that ignorance is is a lot of times the,
00:36:29:18 - 00:36:34:17
Wilk Wilkinson
the catalyst for the fear. And then that fear leads to,
00:36:34:17 - 00:36:39:17
Wilk Wilkinson
leads to anger, and that anger leads to hate, and that that hate leads to the violent.
00:36:39:17 - 00:36:46:18
Wilk Wilkinson
So if we when we're talking about bridging divides and we're talking about understanding somebody,
00:36:46:18 - 00:36:54:22
Wilk Wilkinson
step out of your own silo, step out of your own echo chamber, do not be afraid to have conversation with people you don't understand.
00:36:54:22 - 00:37:00:06
Wilk Wilkinson
My, my, my friend, my good friend from Braver Angels, Monica Guzman, talks about,
00:37:00:06 - 00:37:01:01
Wilk Wilkinson
those who
00:37:01:01 - 00:37:05:20
Wilk Wilkinson
are underrepresented in our life will be overrepresented in our minds and our imaginations.
00:37:05:20 - 00:37:06:22
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
Absolutely.
00:37:06:22 - 00:37:10:12
Wilk Wilkinson
And as your friend stated,
00:37:10:12 - 00:37:19:23
Wilk Wilkinson
it's a chosen ignorance. If we choose to remain ignorance, the likelihood that our fear will grow about whoever it is, whether it's somebody
00:37:19:23 - 00:37:22:02
Wilk Wilkinson
of a different color or a different,
00:37:22:02 - 00:37:24:12
Wilk Wilkinson
ethnicity, different,
00:37:24:12 - 00:37:28:06
Wilk Wilkinson
geographical origin, whatever. Different, different class,
00:37:28:06 - 00:37:30:07
Wilk Wilkinson
we we talk about the haves and the have nots.
00:37:30:07 - 00:37:31:02
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
Absolutely...
00:37:31:02 - 00:37:39:05
Wilk Wilkinson
Of these things can be cured with genuine curiosity and curious and genuine conversations.
00:37:40:19 - 00:37:41:13
Wilk Wilkinson
And if you're.
00:37:41:17 - 00:37:46:11
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
Willing to, to, to listen like my children challenge me all the time. Yeah.
00:37:46:11 - 00:37:58:10
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
and if I say something that, that their mindset is a little different about they, they, they caused me to stop and think and, and it's, it's humbling.
00:37:58:12 - 00:38:02:02
Wilk Wilkinson
It is, it is and it's a wonderful thing. I mean,
00:38:02:02 - 00:38:05:15
Wilk Wilkinson
the thing is, is we we as human beings, none of us,
00:38:05:15 - 00:38:07:10
Wilk Wilkinson
can be afraid to,
00:38:07:10 - 00:38:10:01
Wilk Wilkinson
to have conversations with people. We,
00:38:10:01 - 00:38:19:07
Wilk Wilkinson
maybe it's somebody that we do fear. Maybe it's somebody that we. We don't even like. Abraham Lincoln at one point in time said something to the effect of, I do not like that, man.
00:38:19:07 - 00:38:21:10
Wilk Wilkinson
I must get to know him better. Right?
00:38:21:18 - 00:38:29:05
Wilk Wilkinson
the reality is, is, is we all have a lot of work to do. We all have unconscious bias. We we we all have,
00:38:29:05 - 00:38:41:12
Wilk Wilkinson
the ability to make the world better. We just have to choose to do it. Absolutely. This has been a wonderful conversation, doctor TLC, where can people find out more about you and the work that you do?
00:38:41:14 - 00:38:42:03
Wilk Wilkinson
And,
00:38:42:03 - 00:38:43:07
Wilk Wilkinson
and then we'll wrap this one up.
00:38:43:08 - 00:38:50:09
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
Well, they can go to the secret intelligence dot com and that is sacredintelligence.com
00:38:50:09 - 00:38:57:05
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
and you can also find me on social media if you put in sacred intelligence or if you put in Reverend Doctor TLC,
00:38:57:05 - 00:39:00:13
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
or just Terrlyn Curry Avery, you'll find me.
00:39:00:15 - 00:39:07:20
Wilk Wilkinson
I am so grateful for this wonderful conversation. Thank you for joining me on the Derate The Hate podcast, doctor TLC. Have a wonderful day.
00:39:07:21 - 00:39:13:01
Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery
All right. Thank you for having me.
00:39:13:01 - 00:39:42:21
Wilk Wilkinson
Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate the Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together, so please take a moment to visit Braver angels.org and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divides.
00:39:42:23 - 00:40:06:05
Wilk Wilkinson
This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friends, I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
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