Send Wilk a text with your feedback!
This week on the Derate The Hate podcast, I'm joined by Jonah Primo, a creative powerhouse and thoughtful voice out of Sydney, Australia. Jonah is a storyteller in the deepest sense—whether he's producing Australia's top philosophy podcast Principle of Charity, hosting his personal show The Overexamined Life, or creating meaningful art through StudioPrimo, his passion lies in helping people explore what matters most.
In our conversation, we dig into what it really takes to understand others in a deeply polarized world. We unpack the principle of charity, a transformative approach to dialogue that challenges us to interpret opposing viewpoints in their strongest possible form. Jonah explains why this is essential not just for civil discourse, but for cultivating genuine empathy.
We also talk about:
✅ Jonah’s personal transformation through mindfulness and meditation
✅ The psychological toll of constant outrage and tribalism
✅ Why forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves
✅ How gratitude and being present reshape our outlook on life
✅ The cognitive effort it takes to step into someone else’s shoes
Jonah’s perspective is rooted in both philosophy and personal experience—he doesn’t just talk about ideas, he lives them. His reflections are equal parts practical and profound, and I think you’ll walk away with tools to apply immediately in your own life.
🧠 Whether you’re curious about improving dialogue, managing your emotional triggers, or just living with a bit more joy, this episode delivers.
🎧 Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a review if this conversation resonated with you!
Let’s keep working together to better the world—one conversation at a time.
🎧 Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a review if this conversation resonated with you!
#JonahPrimo, #PhilosophicalEntrepreneur, #PrincipleOfCharity, #MindfulnessMatters, #ForgivenessAndGratitude, #EmpathyInDialogue, #DerateTheHate, #CivilDiscourse, #OpenMindedConversations, #TheOverexaminedLife, #PodcastOnPhilosophy, #ReducePolarization
What have you done today to make your life a better life? What have you done today to make the world a better place? The world is a better place if we are better people. That begins with each of us as individuals. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you’ve got. Make each and every day the day that you want it to be!
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00;00;00;00 - 00;00;43;18
Wilk
Welcome back, my friends, to the Derate the Hate podcast. I am your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage, calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by FOG, and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. Each week I'm sharing stories from my path and using the power of conversation and collaboration with my many great guests.
00;00;43;20 - 00;01;07;29
Wilk
Together, we chart a course toward understanding, bridging divides and fostering a community where wisdom prevails over discord. Friends, it really is about bettering the world. One attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can berate the hate. The only good thing about a bad attitude is we have the ability as individuals to change it.
00;01;08;02 - 00;01;31;03
Wilk
For me, it starts with gratitude and personal accountability. I am so incredibly grateful that you have taken the time to join me for another powerful episode. Please remember to subscribe and share the podcast with your network of friends. If you would like to support the show, check out the Support Us page on the Direct the Hate website. With that, my friends, let's get to it.
00;01;31;03 - 00;02;01;21
Wilk
Each week on this show, we try to have conversations that challenge our thinking, deepen our empathy, and bring us one step closer to bridging the divides that are tearing so many people apart. Today's guest is someone who spent years exploring the big questions that drive those kind of conversations. Jonah Primo is a Sydney based creative producer and philosopher of sorts, someone who brings stories and ideas to life through every medium he can get his hands on.
00;02;01;23 - 00;02;02;27
Wilk
He's interviewed everyone
00;02;02;27 - 00;02;19;24
Wilk
from hermetic gurus to A-list celebrities, scoring music for top brands, and even sold art NFTs to John Legend. But what drew me to Jonah is the heart and intention behind his work, especially his commitment to meaningful dialog.
00;02;19;24 - 00;02;34;12
Wilk
Jonah is the producer of principal of Charity Australia's Number One philosophy podcast, where he brings together people with opposing views and challenges them to engage with each other's best arguments, not their worst.
00;02;34;15 - 00;02;44;26
Wilk
And on his own show The Over Examined Life, Jonah takes listeners on a deeply personal journey through forgiveness, gratitude, mindfulness,
00;02;44;26 - 00;02;50;21
Wilk
and the philosophical ideas that helped him transform dissatisfaction into joy.
00;02;50;21 - 00;03;01;18
Wilk
In this episode, we dig into everything from tribalism and moral blindness, to the power of lived experience and the importance of being fully present.
00;03;01;21 - 00;03;15;12
Wilk
Jonah and I talk about what it really means to listen, especially to those we disagree with and why empathy takes real cognitive effort. He's got a background in music, philosophy and finance,
00;03;15;12 - 00;03;29;27
Wilk
which means. He approaches these conversations with both heart and a sharp, analytical mind. So get ready, my friends, because this is a deep, enriching talk that might just change the way that you see things.
00;03;29;29 - 00;03;33;25
Wilk
Let's get into it with my friend Jonah Primo. Here we go.
00;03;33;25 - 00;03;42;14
Wilk
Jonah. Primo, thank you for joining me on the Derate the Hate podcast today. I know we had to cancel this one time before, but so glad you're here today. Thanks for joining me, man.
00;03;42;16 - 00;03;46;26
Jonah Primo
Hey, thanks so much for having me, Wilk. I'm a fan of your message.
00;03;46;28 - 00;04;06;08
Wilk
Appreciate that for sure. Because the message is why I do it, too. And I one of the things when you reach out to me, Jonah, is, is when I saw the work that you've been doing, you know, over your, over your, I guess, catalog of work that you've kind of been doing for the past several years. You were really talking my language.
00;04;06;08 - 00;04;49;08
Wilk
You're talking about forgiveness and gratitude and, and mental awareness and these different things that I talk so much about. But then you also do work, and we're going to dive into a lot of different things here today, Jonah, in a short amount of time. But but one of the things that really attracted me to the work that you've been doing is this, this principle of charity podcast, that, that again, part of the part of the catalog of stuff that you produce is principle of charity and and having conversations with people that, that we disagree with and, and kind of being able to steal, being able to present the strongest argument for, for the person
00;04;49;08 - 00;05;08;11
Wilk
that that we're having this conversation with and doing all these different things that are just really part of the the language that I speak. Jonah. So very grateful that you're here today. So let's start our conversation in there. How did you first, I mean, because I know this is part of your personal story from from what I gathered.
00;05;08;13 - 00;05;29;07
Wilk
How did you start in this kind of space of of being able to work through these things, you know, gathering parties together? I mean, I know you're in Australia. I'm in the United States. I don't know if polarization is, is is as big a thing there as it is here, but tell me how you got started in this space, Jonah.
00;05;29;09 - 00;05;57;27
Jonah Primo
You know, most of us can see that we've built this tribal world and what happens is people will come in with all of their biases and with their agenda, and they'll find the weakest links of another person's arguments so that they can cut them down. As you said, they'll strawman the opposing view. And we wanted to create a space where people were.
00;05;57;27 - 00;06;20;26
Jonah Primo
The actual format of the show was to strongman the view you disagree with. So we bring on two people with completely different views on a big issue, like a big issue, like euthanasia or abortion or identity politics or whatever it is they're on that. They're on two different sides of the spectrum and they have to go in. This is the format of the show.
00;06;20;28 - 00;06;47;08
Jonah Primo
They have to go in and explain the other person's argument in the most generous, charitable way, in a way that means and it hurts. You can see it in their faces. They they, they're dying inside trying to argue that whatever it is, you know, fat shaming is a good thing or whatever it is some crazy idea that for them is insane.
00;06;47;08 - 00;07;06;17
Jonah Primo
But for the other person, it's their whole life and they have to be really generous. And what we found is by putting two people in the same room. And often these people actually have a long history of like attacking each other on Twitter, like because they're public figures. We just we do we we do public figures and experts.
00;07;06;17 - 00;07;25;26
Jonah Primo
So often they know each other. They know this is their kind of adversary in the space. And then we put them in a room and they've written articles about how much the other person's an idiot. But when you put them in a room, somehow that disappears 90, 95% of the time it disappears. And they just suddenly they're generous.
00;07;25;28 - 00;07;49;24
Jonah Primo
They start finding common ground. They start finding little bits of overlap. You know, their minds are never changed. And that's not the goal. The goal is not to make someone who believes one thing, believe another. The goal is just to see when you come in and you're this far away from each other. And that's how you talk and that's how you interact on the internet.
00;07;49;26 - 00;07;55;09
Jonah Primo
Maybe you can just talk here, just 10% either side. Yeah, maybe there are some things.
00;07;55;12 - 00;08;20;19
Wilk
Yeah that's beautiful man. You know what I is so so obviously this is this is very similar to a lot of what I do. And, and I love this idea. So so let me get this right because I have just full disclosure I have not seen this happen yet. I mean, I've read about it. I've I've looked into it a little bit after after you reached out to me.
00;08;20;22 - 00;08;33;28
Wilk
Are you physically putting these two people in the same room that have, have written about each other, called each other out on social media, these different things, you're physically bringing them together in a studio to talk through this?
00;08;34;00 - 00;08;53;02
Jonah Primo
Well, that was originally the intention. But the thing is, the caliber of guests that we have when we mean we have like Oscar winners and all sorts of like, really top people. And we just found that if we wanted to get really the best of the best, we had to go all over the world to sometimes we in four time zones at the same time.
00;08;53;05 - 00;09;10;10
Jonah Primo
Okay. And we just try and we just try and figure it out. So it's mostly online, but they're still they're still looking at each other. They're still looking each other in the eyes. Oh for sure. Which is the key thing there in the same digital space. And to put them in a studio together would be incredible. But it's nothing.
00;09;10;13 - 00;09;12;08
Wilk
Like a cage match, right?
00;09;12;10 - 00;09;14;29
Jonah Primo
Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly.
00;09;15;01 - 00;09;42;07
Wilk
Well, and the reason that I ask because, I mean, I've done a lot of these things and, and I've, I've been able to put together some, some interesting conversations and trying to get people on stage together. People who are, are seen in many ways as like these arch enemies. Definitely not the easiest thing in the world. And, and usually there's one side or the other that's just not willing to share a space with that person.
00;09;42;07 - 00;09;45;05
Wilk
Right. But but I, you know, kind of,
00;09;45;05 - 00;09;52;01
Wilk
kind of touching on what you're talking about here, Jonah, is is the idea that.
00;09;52;03 - 00;09;53;07
Jonah Primo
Well.
00;09;53;10 - 00;10;15;13
Wilk
So many, so many things that I've talked about on this podcast are coming out in, in my mind right now because of what you're talking about. And, and the idea that we put together two people who are diametrically opposed on a particular issue and then and then this whole keyboard warrior thing in this, in this internet ecosystem that so many of us spend so much time in now.
00;10;15;15 - 00;10;16;08
Jonah Primo
Yeah.
00;10;16;10 - 00;10;50;20
Wilk
People will do things and say things online that they would never do in person, which is why I guess that question, because I'm like, okay, well, yeah. Yeah, obviously you put two people in the same space, but yeah, the digital space, it is much different to write about somebody or talk about somebody or, or record something about somebody when you're not looking them in the eye, but when you're live and looking them in the eye, whether it be digitally or or in person, certainly in person, but even digitally, it changes the dynamic of that conversation.
00;10;50;20 - 00;11;24;12
Wilk
And it it definitely brings out a different piece in them. What I really love is the idea of of trying to make this particular person present the strongest argument for what they don't actually believe in. You know, that whole steel Manning thing, right? And and then and I'm remember, I'm reminded of my, my friend Angel Eduardo and his, his star Manning concept of, of I'm going to present this issue from your point of view in a way that you would actually agree with it.
00;11;24;14 - 00;11;47;10
Wilk
I mean, yeah, I mean, this is this is this is one of the most important concept that's out there, John, because far too often people who are diametrically opposed on these issues, they think they know what the other person is saying. They think they know what the other person is thinking, but quite often they just really do not.
00;11;47;12 - 00;12;07;21
Wilk
They are not in that same space. They are not. They are in their silo and that person's in their silo. And that's why the US versus them thing is there in the first place. And they just really don't know. So actually forcing somebody to put in the work to be able to do that thing so incredibly important.
00;12;07;24 - 00;12;41;22
Jonah Primo
I couldn't agree more with like, yeah, it's one of it's just one of those things. It's one of those things where like, you know, imagine you're doing a PhD on the subject and you're just as you say, you're just you're siloed in. Right. Because everything you do is designed to reinforce the thesis. And so it is it is a rare thing to have someone have to basically construct and back up the thesis of something they don't agree with, especially on a topic that they might feel very emotionally connected to, you know, like that's that's part of it.
00;12;41;22 - 00;13;07;00
Jonah Primo
Like there's an emotional side to all of this as well. Built in. So it's not just that you're, you know, you're siloed into the the intellectual ism. You know, you're also siloed into emotional. And you might have past experience or traumas that have led you down a certain path. And it's eating that makes it even harder, right. That makes it even harder to take on the opposing view.
00;13;07;00 - 00;13;14;17
Jonah Primo
But if we don't look at what the other person is thinking, we dehumanize them, right? Like we we yeah.
00;13;14;20 - 00;13;37;08
Wilk
Yeah. No, that's that's an important point is, is so many of these things, so many of these problems, so many of these divides are caused by just our lack of understanding who that other person is. And then as we further entrench ourselves in our own silos, it becomes so much easier to dehumanize, dehumanize that other person.
00;13;37;10 - 00;14;00;23
Jonah Primo
And it does get easier. And and you want to that's the other thing. You want to dehumanize them. Because if they're human, you, it's hard to fight against another human. But if they if they stop looking like human humans to you, if they start being this something that's other, it's very, very easy to sort of take, you know, take those next steps to do something cruel or immoral.
00;14;00;25 - 00;14;19;06
Wilk
Oh yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. That othering part of of the whole us versus them paradigm is, is one of the core tenets of it. Right? Is as long as we can, as long as we can convince ourselves that those other people are, you know, they aren't just wrong, they're evil. They aren't.
00;14;19;08 - 00;14;19;28
Jonah Primo
Exactly.
00;14;19;28 - 00;14;43;00
Wilk
They aren't another human. There's some kind of monster. You know, we convince ourselves of these things, and then we allow our imagination to build upon that perception of that person, making that person into something that is just totally foreign to us. Again, a monster, some kind of evil entity that we don't want any part of.
00;14;43;12 - 00;15;07;17
Wilk
But, but when you sit them down and put them, put them eye to eye and say, okay, well now I want you to take their point there, you're going to take your point and we're going to have this conversation and we're going to see how this flies that that introduces an entirely different dynamic. Because a lot of the times in these things when they're just listening to a person from afar, they're not actually forced to interact with that person.
00;15;07;24 - 00;15;22;23
Wilk
They can tune out a lot of what that person is saying. But now all of a sudden, one, it's me. I have to actually present that argument. From that person's point of view, it's awfully damn difficult for me to not list them myself, as I'm talking. Right.
00;15;22;23 - 00;15;44;05
Jonah Primo
Totally. That's a that's a good point. That's a good point. I mean we the other thing there and this sort of spills into the mindfulness space. But we don't really decide in advance what we say or what or even what we think. We don't like what I'm saying right now, I haven't thought to say before, it comes out of my mouth.
00;15;44;10 - 00;16;08;28
Jonah Primo
And, you know, part of what the work that, that I do is just sort of a lot of introspection through the meditation space and realizing that thoughts do just appear. And if thoughts do just appear as opposed to us deciding to think something, then that means if that's my experience for meditating, that means it's other people are experiencing that too.
00;16;08;29 - 00;16;32;15
Jonah Primo
They're sitting down, thoughts are appearing, and you can build in some empathy there because you go, well, if we're not deciding our thoughts, where are the thoughts coming from? Well, they're coming from two things. They're coming from genetics and they're coming from cultural experience nurture, which means you can kind of trace back everything, somewhat everything that someone says.
00;16;32;17 - 00;16;52;17
Jonah Primo
If you had all the variables, you could figure out why they said it. They grew up in a certain way, their brain works a certain way. And once you have that kind of empathy and you realize that people didn't just decide to do something really cruel or evil, but rather it's this aggregate of all these different inputs and variables.
00;16;52;17 - 00;17;15;00
Jonah Primo
You go, okay, they didn't. They're not just choosing to be evil for the sake of it. They've kind of been cornered into this position through what they've been taught, through whatever neurodivergent they have, through whatever, just the way that they have the brain works, their culture, this, their friends, their parents, none of which they chose. Right? You don't choose your parents.
00;17;15;03 - 00;17;51;19
Jonah Primo
And all of a sudden you can let go of a lot of the hate when you think about it that way, you can go, okay, okay, this person didn't really have a choice to to grow up in this society where they had to where they were forced to do these things and had these experiences that led them to be a bad person and a completely allows you to reframe your concept of retribution and justice because you go, okay, I don't need to punish someone for the sake of punishing them, that they might need to be removed from society if they do evil things.
00;17;51;22 - 00;18;17;03
Jonah Primo
But you can take out this sort of punitive side of things, the joy in someone else's suffering. Once you acknowledge that they are this combination of nature and nurture as opposed to just evil, as you said, no one's very few people are evil. I mean, there's the psychopaths, right? But everything else is some sort of ideological mismatch.
00;18;17;05 - 00;18;21;29
Wilk
Typically some kind of learned behavior based on our own life experience. Right.
00;18;22;02 - 00;18;23;01
Jonah Primo
Generally.
00;18;23;03 - 00;19;00;21
Wilk
I mean, many of these things and, and you make a fantastic point. I want to dive into that or tackle that a little bit deeper, because when we talk about the lived experience of others and how that relates to empathy and how that how that, you know, plays a part in our own empathy or, or our lived experience, not allowing for the basic understanding of who that other person is, because their lived experience is so much different than ours, and we don't allow ourselves to to actually think of it in terms of that.
00;19;00;24 - 00;19;12;17
Wilk
Right? I think a lot of that is discounted, but I think it's something that cannot be overstated. How important it is that that this person's lived experience, this is another thing, you know,
00;19;12;17 - 00;19;29;04
Wilk
I mean, to take this kind of a different spot. But but thinking about, you know, historical figures and things that have happened with people throughout history and trying to judge people from history based on the standards of today, it's a it's a false premise.
00;19;29;04 - 00;19;29;28
Jonah Primo
We can.
00;19;29;28 - 00;19;58;02
Wilk
Do that. Yeah. But but it's done so often. It's done with people, from people from history. But more importantly, it's done today with people that we know nothing about. We just don't understand who they are because we don't have their lived experience. We don't have the ability to truly empathize with them because we don't know what storms they battled.
00;19;58;02 - 00;20;06;00
Wilk
We don't know their demons. We don't know what they've gone through, but we have to try and put ourselves in that mental space.
00;20;06;02 - 00;20;07;05
Jonah Primo
And we also don't know.
00;20;07;05 - 00;20;16;20
Wilk
How that relationship between lived experience, being able to empathize with others and how that works. And, you know, works together.
00;20;16;22 - 00;20;38;13
Jonah Primo
Yeah. Well, well, as you said, I mean, the other thing we don't know is what's culturally appropriate in different in different scenarios. And I think, as you said, you know, we judge people from history based on different inputs because some things were okay and some things weren't okay. And you know what? In 100 years they will be doing the exact same thing to us.
00;20;38;15 - 00;20;59;22
Jonah Primo
You know, they'll be like, how could these people wear clothes made in sweatshops? I mean, that's disgusting. That is, you know, all these different pots where, where, you know, built building in some cruelty, you know, eating animals, whatever. We're right now that's standard, that's stand, that's the default. But maybe in 100 years they'll go, how could anyone ever do that?
00;20;59;22 - 00;21;16;29
Jonah Primo
And we'll go, well, at the time everyone was doing it, you know, you have these, you have these worlds that you're built into, and you can think that you are the most moral good person on the planet, and you might be doing a lot of good. You know, there are people who really do do a lot of good, but there are,
00;21;16;29 - 00;21;22;04
Jonah Primo
people who are doing a lot of good while doing evil that that just isn't evil yet.
00;21;22;05 - 00;21;42;14
Jonah Primo
It just hasn't. We haven't decided it's evil yet. And society in 100 years might have a very different moral compass, just like we do now. So it certainly it doesn't justify anything that happened 100 years ago. It's not saying that stuff was ever okay, but what it is saying is maybe if you were there, you would have done the same.
00;21;42;16 - 00;22;08;16
Jonah Primo
That's the difference. It's not saying that those are good things. It's saying, would you really have gone against the grain? Honestly, when everyone's doing something, everyone's saying, this is okay. Would you have as well? You know we can't. No we can't. No. I think there's always going to be people who fight for fights for what's right and are ahead of the curve, but I don't think we can we can know that we would be doing the same thing.
00;22;08;16 - 00;22;34;05
Jonah Primo
So I think we have to be honest about our fallibility and our ability to, you know, I just that desire to fit in a desire to be normal. And again, that comes into tribalism. Now, the problem with tribalism is you want to fit in with your tribe, right? Like you want to be respected. And that often means that you'll do what works for the tribe, what's loyal to the tribe instead of what's morally correct.
00;22;34;07 - 00;22;56;19
Jonah Primo
Which is why the concept of why tribes in general. Some are okay. Sometimes you need to unite around the cause, but we need to do a lot more due diligence and really think about if our tribe is doing the right thing. And again, that's why we go into principle of charity, because we want to be honest that what we think isn't necessarily right.
00;22;56;25 - 00;23;13;02
Jonah Primo
Everything that I'm saying in real time in this podcast might not be right. It's what I think right now, but I want to be open to the fact that it's not. And if I, you know, often I podcast and someone sent me an email and they say, by the way, you haven't thought about this and I that's what I want, right?
00;23;13;02 - 00;23;40;29
Jonah Primo
Because I want to I want to move I want to expand. But we need to, as a society, be open to this expansion. Otherwise. Otherwise we're screwed. Otherwise, again, as you say, like it's pretty polarized in Australia. I know that you guys that scaled up 100 times, but yeah, it's it's certainly it feels like the entire world is all going the same direction further and further away from, you know, a common cause.
00;23;41;02 - 00;24;00;16
Wilk
Yeah. Well and that's the thing I, you know, I, I there's a number of different things you said there, Jonah, that I kind of want to tap into a little bit in our, in our remaining time. But, but yeah, the concept of fallibility. Right. And the concept that that we have to make sure as individuals we don't get stuck in our own certainty.
00;24;00;19 - 00;24;30;01
Wilk
We've got to be able to. I've been talking a lot lately about this, this book called Think Again by by Adam Grant. Is it just it's just a fantastic book talking about a lot of concepts that people should be, should be more aware of. But far too often when we think about tribalism, how do we get there? How do we end up getting stuck within our tribe and and not wanting to even broaden our horizons to the idea that we might be wrong?
00;24;30;04 - 00;24;52;15
Wilk
Is our tribe really the tribe that makes the most sense to be part of, you know, as we allow ourselves to to get stuck in these groups, we often will do things and say things that we probably never or wouldn't have otherwise done just to fit in. But but it's that fallibility. We are human beings. We make mistakes.
00;24;52;15 - 00;25;01;13
Wilk
But if we get stuck in that mindset that we aren't wrong, or the people that we're with are not wrong, we have to do what they do because they are right.
00;25;01;13 - 00;25;06;02
Wilk
That ability to actually look outside ourselves and say.
00;25;06;05 - 00;25;06;22
Jonah Primo
Hey.
00;25;06;25 - 00;25;31;06
Wilk
This might be wrong, or hey, I've been working off this, this information or this subset of information that I have. And that's what I thought was the right answer. But I might need to think about this a little bit, a little bit more, because I don't think this is right. People's ability to shift has to be respected because if we if we
00;25;31;06 - 00;25;49;03
Wilk
if we do not allow ourselves to course correct when things are going wrong or we bust on other people for course correcting when they found new information, right, we're sunk.
00;25;49;05 - 00;26;03;18
Wilk
I mean, we have to be able to course correct, just like you're talking about 100 years from now. They're going to look back on a lot of the things that we're doing today and be like, I can't believe those people did that. Well, how do we get there? We get there because we course correct it. Right?
00;26;03;20 - 00;26;29;05
Jonah Primo
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the problem is Will, that takes a lot of work. It's a, it's a there's a big cognitive load to thinking about what someone else is feeling and what thinking about what they're saying, and then doing your due diligence and having the intellectual rigor to see if that if your default ideas aren't correct and to change and to go outside your community where everyone's reinforcing the same idea.
00;26;29;05 - 00;26;35;01
Jonah Primo
That all takes a lot of work. What's really easy is just to hate the other side. That's easy to.
00;26;35;01 - 00;26;39;08
Wilk
Hate the other side and go with the flow. This is what I'm doing. I'm just going to do it.
00;26;39;10 - 00;26;55;03
Jonah Primo
I'm going to do it. And the the you know, the added problem is that it's energizing. If you want to go protest against something and just assume you're right and go, oh, we're going to fight these evil people till the death that, you know, we're going to do it. We can we're going to do standing up for good.
00;26;55;05 - 00;27;12;09
Jonah Primo
It's exciting. You know, if you don't have anything else going on, that's a reason to wake up in the morning or we're going to go take down these guys. We're going to take down those guys. It doesn't matter who you are, left or right, it doesn't matter this there's there's an energy to taking down something and it's fueled from hate and anger.
00;27;12;09 - 00;27;20;04
Jonah Primo
But these emotions like they cost you in the end, they really do. They really cost you.
00;27;20;06 - 00;27;41;09
Wilk
No, they absolutely do, Jonah. They they do cost that love. None of this stuff comes without a cost. My question for you, then, Jonah, is, you know, obviously, I mean, people on the podcast, I've heard a lot about my story and how I've worked through a lot of my own demons and and got to a place where I'm not angry all the time anymore and things like that.
00;27;41;12 - 00;27;49;01
Wilk
What was it about your life? Because I know that that a lot of this came out of a lot of this knowledge and wisdom that you're being
00;27;49;01 - 00;28;06;09
Wilk
you're you're putting in to to the podcast that you work on and, and the things that you do came out of your personal journey. What was it about? What was it about your journey that kind of led you into waking up to these things?
00;28;06;09 - 00;28;31;28
Wilk
Right. That that once you once you kind of get into this work and you start, you're able to recognize the the US versus them polarity, it almost becomes second nature because it feels so right. But it's one of the hardest things that that a person can do. What was it about your journey, Jonah, that that got you to start understanding this and this?
00;28;31;28 - 00;28;36;15
Wilk
Number one, what it was. But number two, how to work through it.
00;28;36;17 - 00;29;03;09
Jonah Primo
Yeah, that's a that's a great question. Well, I mean, I think it became I think it came from a fascination with philosophy in the mind. And I, and I found this I didn't start with anger being the thing I wanted to, to reconcile. I started with just sort of dissatisfaction and sadness being my being my problem because I, you know, I worked at an investment bank and then, you know, I found that really tough.
00;29;03;09 - 00;29;23;18
Jonah Primo
I didn't like it. I didn't feel like I was doing any good. And then I moved, I went to music school and then I, you know, I did the sort of musician thing played in bands. This was all after working at a bank and I found reasons to be dissatisfied with that lifestyle as well, even though both of them were ostensibly going well, like there was no issue.
00;29;23;18 - 00;29;46;13
Jonah Primo
I just was finding ways to be dissatisfied. And so I had to figure out, you know, if I move on from music to the next thing I get excited about, I know that I'm going to find a way to be dissatisfied with that, too. So I need to figure out what's this game I'm playing where I just I'm never really happy with where I am.
00;29;46;13 - 00;29;58;26
Jonah Primo
I need to figure out where the answers lie, and I found a lot of those answers in Western philosophy, like stoicism and also eastern philosophy, Buddhism. And between the two of those things,
00;29;58;26 - 00;30;24;02
Jonah Primo
I realized that there you have to work through the internal stuff. When you work through the internal stuff, it doesn't matter really what you're doing. I mean, there's some things that are more existentially fulfilling than others, but broadly, you can start to take the the width of what you're thinking about down and get closer and closer to the present moment and the present moment is where experience happens.
00;30;24;04 - 00;30;47;12
Jonah Primo
It's where joy happens, is where you see beauty. But you can lose all of that by being lost in thought, by thinking about, let's say, who you hate, who who's wronged you, why? Some people are rich, some people are poor. The injustice of that, the injustice of racial inequality. You can you can be constantly thinking about all these different things and missing out on real life.
00;30;47;14 - 00;31;12;17
Jonah Primo
And a lot of those things for me were just selfish things, like, I just wanted to be richer. I wanted to be playing bigger venues, whatever, like all this different stuff. I just wanted different things. I was always wanting something. And the answer is not to get what you want. The answer is to want less. And once you do that, once you do that, you, you've you've completely reduced this margin of suffering.
00;31;12;19 - 00;31;45;02
Jonah Primo
And from there in that investigation, I realized that a lot of these principles don't just apply to depression and sadness and dissatisfaction, but they start to apply to everything anger, anxiety. You can start going, okay, I'm not my thoughts. Thoughts appear, but I don't have to identify with them. I can always come back to the now. And that really helped me with anger, really helped me with anxiety and it's helped me find joy and satisfaction wherever I am, whatever I'm doing.
00;31;45;02 - 00;32;12;16
Jonah Primo
And it's helped me be present and have, you know, far better relationships like I'm here with you now. We're enjoying this moment. We're having a beautiful human conversation across the fucking planet. That's incredible. That is incredible. But imagine if I was sitting here being like, oh, I wish I'd rephrase that and not actually present. Then I'd miss your whole conversation and miss everything you're saying, because I'm already I'm stuck in the past or the same thing.
00;32;12;16 - 00;32;31;06
Jonah Primo
I go, oh, what are they going to think when they hear me say that? I'm not even sure I fully agree with what I just said, you know? Then again, I miss what you're going to say. And this ability to come back to the now has been the most exciting and satisfying thing I've ever done. And now I've been doing it for ten years.
00;32;31;06 - 00;32;52;26
Jonah Primo
So I'm getting better and better and better at just being here now with people, enjoying relationships, enjoying beauty, enjoying the foam in my beer, the wrinkles in my shirt, whatever it is like just enjoying life. Because I'll tell you what, like life is damn short. It is darn short and you know, we want to be here. We want to be here for it.
00;32;52;26 - 00;33;11;08
Jonah Primo
We really want to be present. We don't want to be thinking about our job when we don't have to be. We want to be with our family. We don't want to be thinking about whether or not, you know, China is going to invade Australia. That's one of the things we worry about sometimes. We don't want to be thinking about that while we're having, you know, lunch with our best friends.
00;33;11;08 - 00;33;27;02
Jonah Primo
We want to be there with our best friends and, you know, and sorry, I just I just the thing with anger because it's your it's your space. But like, you know, you can get angry about anything. We can we play soccer sometimes we get a bad call that can ruin your weekend. Oh my God.
00;33;27;02 - 00;33;45;08
Wilk
Yeah. No, I and and you, you've just touched on so many incredible points, Jonah. But but being present in the now, enjoying things for what they are, being grateful for the things that we have and not focusing on the things that we don't or the things that we want
00;33;45;08 - 00;33;59;22
Wilk
such incredible points for, for for our own peace of mind and being able to relate well to others in the present, in the now, being able to enjoy these, these things.
00;34;00;02 - 00;34;44;00
Wilk
This has been an incredible conversation. Jonah, a lot of importance there. A lot of wisdom comes out of that. And you know the formula, I think I think the biggest thing that I take away from from from that last the last thing that you said, the formula is not that complicated. It's not nearly as complicated as many would believe, because if we focus on the present, if we if we enjoy the space that we're in and just take things for what they are and not worry about the things that are outside of that particular space or the things that are outside of what we can actually control.
00;34;44;02 - 00;35;06;13
Wilk
We are so much happier as human beings because no matter where you go, there you are. I can't remember who said it, but it's been damn important. No matter where you go, there you are. So you better work on yourself because you're the first person in your space. You are in that space. And if you want to enjoy that space, you better be enjoying your own company, which is you.
00;35;06;15 - 00;35;28;15
Wilk
So much greatness in that, that that, well, so much greatness in the whole conversation. Jonah, I want to thank you for joining me here on the Direct the podcast. Even though we are on opposite ends of the planet, we're definitely in the same space. A mentally on so many of the things that we're talking about. And even if we weren't, we we still could have an incredible conversation.
00;35;28;15 - 00;35;29;04
Jonah Primo
That's right.
00;35;29;04 - 00;35;42;25
Wilk
Because of the way. Because of the way that we work through these things. Right. It's a beautiful thing. Jonah. Primo, just a fantastic conversation. Tell the listeners real quick where can they find out more about you? And,
00;35;42;25 - 00;35;45;06
Wilk
where would you like them to go to do it?
00;35;45;08 - 00;36;13;14
Jonah Primo
Yeah. So I host a podcast called The Over Examined Life. It's just two minute. It's two ten minute episodes a week where we just explore wisdom from both the East, the West about this kind of stuff, about how to get more fulfillment in everyday life no matter what your circumstances are. Everything dealing with pain, dealing with anxiety, dealing with a fight with your spouse, everyday life, but using big thinkers, big wisdom.
00;36;13;14 - 00;36;31;10
Jonah Primo
And we do occasionally we do, you know, interviews and stuff with Buddhist nuns and, you know, the great American philosophers, head of departments at MIT, the best thinkers in the world. So yeah, come check out the over examined life and we'll try and make your day a little brighter.
00;36;31;12 - 00;36;47;23
Wilk
Super cool man. Anybody who's trying to better the world is a friend of mine, and the over examined life looks like a good place to do it. Jonah. Primo, thank you so much for joining me here on the Derate the Hate podcast. I do appreciate you. I'm grateful and we'll do it again. Thank you.
00;36;47;26 - 00;36;48;26
Jonah Primo
Thanks, Wilk, see ya.
00;36;48;26 - 00;37;08;19
Wilk
Friends. If there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. Share it with your friends, share it far and wide. And of course, if you haven't done so already, be sure to subscribe right from our website so you can get the Direct The Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week.
00;37;08;22 - 00;37;24;21
Wilk
So this is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another, be grateful for everything that you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make each and every day the day that you want it to be. If there is something that you would like to share with me, you can catch me on most social media platforms.
00;37;24;27 - 00;37;50;13
Wilk
Or you can email me directly. Wilk@WilksWorldcom. With that, my friends, I am going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
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