Send Wilk a text with your feedback!
Featuring Chuck Gafvert – Political Detox Coach & Jungian Psychology Practitioner
In this essential episode of Derate The Hate, I’m joined by Chuck Gafvert — a man on a mission to help people free themselves from the emotional chaos caused by our divisive political climate. After 22 years in corporate America, Chuck found his true calling in helping individuals reduce political stress through a powerful blend of Jungian psychology, neuroscience, and time-tested wisdom traditions.
💡 Why This Conversation Matters for Depolarization
Chuck’s work dovetails directly with our mission here and my work with Braver Angels. Toxic polarization doesn’t just divide communities — it robs individuals of their mental well-being and autonomy. Chuck’s unique coaching approach invites us to look inward, understand the unconscious forces driving our reactions, and reclaim our power from the political theater.
✅ How political stress mirrors an unhealthy emotional diet
✅ Why understanding your triggers leads to personal growth
✅ What Jungian shadow projection teaches us about polarization
✅ How to stop letting external events determine your inner peace
✅ The role of media and tribalism in hijacking emotional systems
✅ What it means to define yourself by what you’re for — not just what you're against
🧘 “Politics causes suffering — but it can also be a gateway for transformation.” — Chuck Gafvert
Chuck also shares immediate steps you can take today to reduce political anxiety, including insights from his free eBook:
📕 Download it here
✅ Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform
✅ Leave a 5-star review
✅ Share this episode with someone ready for less hate and more healing
What have you done today to make your life a better life? What have you done today to make the world a better place? The world is a better place if we are better people. That begins with each of us as individuals. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you’ve got. Make each and every day the day that you want it to be!
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I look forward to hearing from you!
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:43:15
Wilk Wilkinson
Welcome back, my friends, to the Derate the Hate podcast. I am your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage, calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by F-O-G, and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. Each week I'm sharing stories from my path and using the power of conversation and collaboration with my many great guests.
00:00:43:17 - 00:01:07:23
Wilk Wilkinson
Together, we chart a course toward understanding, bridging divides and fostering a community where wisdom prevails over discord. Friends, it really is about bettering the world. One attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can berate the hate. The only good thing about a bad attitude is we have the ability as individuals to change it.
00:01:08:01 - 00:01:30:19
Wilk Wilkinson
For me, it starts with gratitude and personal accountability. I am so incredibly grateful that you have taken the time to join me for another powerful episode. Please remember to subscribe and share the podcast with your network of friends. If you would like to support the show, check out the Support Us page on the Derate the Hate website. With that, my friends, let's get to it.
00:01:30:19 - 00:02:06:17
Wilk Wilkinson
What if your political stress wasn't really about politics? I recently had the pleasure of sitting down with another great guest, whose work aligns beautifully with the mission of this podcast and my work with Braver Angels. Chuck Gafvert spent over two decades as a corporate executive before making a radical shift. Today, he's a certified executive and Jungian psychology coach, helping people detox from the stress, anxiety and emotional burnout caused by our toxic political environment.
00:02:06:19 - 00:02:40:03
Wilk Wilkinson
Through his political detox coaching, Chuck combines Carl Jung's timeless insights with neuroscience and wisdom traditions to help individuals regain peace and emotional balance. No matter who happens to be in office, in this powerful conversation, we unpack the hidden impact of toxic polarization on mental well-being. Chuck explains why our political triggers often have less to do with policy, and more to do with our own internal struggles.
00:02:40:03 - 00:03:07:21
Wilk Wilkinson
We discuss shadow projection, tribalism, media manipulation, and how to reclaim your emotional sovereignty in an age of outrage. If you're looking for real solutions to the stress of political division, not just slogans or Band-Aids, this episode might just be for you. Let's get into it with Chuck Gafvert, Here we go.
00:03:07:21 - 00:03:11:11
Wilk Wilkinson
Chuck Gafvert, Thank you for joining me on the Derate The Hate podcast. It is
00:03:11:11 - 00:03:13:08
Wilk Wilkinson
great to see you today man.
00:03:13:10 - 00:03:16:21
Chuck Gafvert
Thanks. Pleasure to meet you and to be here.
00:03:16:23 - 00:03:17:22
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah. Chuck,
00:03:17:22 - 00:03:25:16
Wilk Wilkinson
you had reached out as a part of some of the work that I do with with the organization Braver Angels. One of my favorite things to talk about. And,
00:03:25:16 - 00:03:30:12
Wilk Wilkinson
so I started looking at the work that you're doing, and, and I see some incredible things here.
00:03:30:12 - 00:03:31:23
Wilk Wilkinson
I see that you were
00:03:31:23 - 00:03:33:07
Wilk Wilkinson
in the executive world for
00:03:33:07 - 00:03:35:23
Wilk Wilkinson
long time. You became an executive coach.
00:03:35:23 - 00:03:38:08
Wilk Wilkinson
You're a Jungian coach. And,
00:03:38:08 - 00:03:42:09
Wilk Wilkinson
and then you kind of transitioned into the,
00:03:42:09 - 00:03:51:02
Wilk Wilkinson
depolarization space, the toxic polarization, and, and how we can avoid stress in that particular part of our life.
00:03:51:04 - 00:03:58:08
Wilk Wilkinson
So, so, Chuck, that's where I want to start our conversation today. I want to know a little bit about your story and
00:03:58:08 - 00:04:03:19
Wilk Wilkinson
what was the catalyst for that transition, because it's not something that everybody does.
00:04:03:19 - 00:04:17:05
Wilk Wilkinson
But but I saw something about it being unfulfilling. The executive coaching thing. And then there obviously has to be a back story there to how it led to your work in the depolarization space.
00:04:17:05 - 00:04:21:05
Wilk Wilkinson
So, Chuck, take it away from there. I want to start right there.
00:04:21:07 - 00:04:27:14
Chuck Gafvert
Great. Thank you. So I first want to say that I really, really respect the work you're doing. And
00:04:27:14 - 00:04:28:22
Chuck Gafvert
especially kind of,
00:04:28:22 - 00:04:42:11
Chuck Gafvert
the depolarization and kind of quenching the outrage, you know, one person at a time, which I think is the right way to do it. You know, it's, it's a got to be a ground up type scenario.
00:04:42:13 - 00:04:45:02
Chuck Gafvert
For me, I spent 25 years in,
00:04:45:02 - 00:04:46:12
Chuck Gafvert
the corporate world.
00:04:46:12 - 00:04:50:08
Chuck Gafvert
I was a technologist. I managed software engineers, and,
00:04:50:08 - 00:04:55:16
Chuck Gafvert
it was fulfilling until it wasn’t, basically. And like a lot of my cohort,
00:04:55:16 - 00:05:05:23
Chuck Gafvert
I reached a point in my life where, you know, you get around and you see that you've done fairly well, but you're, you're thinking, is this all there is?
00:05:06:01 - 00:05:17:00
Chuck Gafvert
What am I going to do for the rest of my life? It's often referred to as the the second half question. The second half of my life. The first half is, is,
00:05:17:00 - 00:05:28:23
Chuck Gafvert
often about, you know, achievement and raising a family and doing things in the world to secure yourself. But then the second half of life can be an introspective journey where,
00:05:28:23 - 00:05:33:07
Chuck Gafvert
a lot of times people get back to the questions they had when they were young.
00:05:33:09 - 00:05:35:17
Chuck Gafvert
And purpose they had when they were young.
00:05:35:17 - 00:05:42:12
Chuck Gafvert
So I got out of the corporate world, got trained as a coach. I've been doing that for seven years.
00:05:42:12 - 00:05:43:03
Chuck Gafvert
And about,
00:05:43:03 - 00:05:52:04
Chuck Gafvert
two years ago, I felt the calling to do something different than the executive coaching that I was doing back in the corporate world.
00:05:52:04 - 00:05:57:22
Chuck Gafvert
And that's the personal coaching or life coaching if if you want to use that term.
00:05:58:00 - 00:06:07:23
Chuck Gafvert
I, I enrolled in a course specifically for coaches to train them on Jungian psychology, which is the the psychology of Carl Jung.
00:06:07:23 - 00:06:10:00
Chuck Gafvert
He is famously,
00:06:10:00 - 00:06:12:00
Chuck Gafvert
known for the shadow,
00:06:12:00 - 00:06:15:18
Chuck Gafvert
kind of coining those terms about shadow shadow work,
00:06:15:18 - 00:06:25:16
Chuck Gafvert
defining the persona and the shadow. And I felt a real resonance with this as a framework to be able to really help people.
00:06:25:18 - 00:06:30:17
Chuck Gafvert
And midway through the course, I just noticed a lot of my friends were,
00:06:30:17 - 00:06:40:15
Chuck Gafvert
for lack of a better word, suffering. They were suffering because of the political environment and for what they see as the external forces,
00:06:40:15 - 00:06:46:07
Chuck Gafvert
that are evident. You know, we hear so much about the things that are wrong and,
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Chuck Gafvert
against what we believe, but we're we're very limited beings to be able to change anything.
00:06:53:03 - 00:07:17:21
Chuck Gafvert
You know, I, I, I, you see this with technology, we're almost like demigods. We have almost omnipotent amount of knowledge because of the internet and news media. We we can know anything that goes wrong in the global villages all across the world. But we have very limited power to affect change. And that creates tremendous suffering within people.
00:07:17:23 - 00:07:18:16
Chuck Gafvert
So,
00:07:18:16 - 00:07:21:14
Chuck Gafvert
I, I kind of dedicated my niche,
00:07:21:14 - 00:07:26:23
Chuck Gafvert
in coaching to reach the people that I felt that could be helped,
00:07:26:23 - 00:07:32:21
Chuck Gafvert
by exploration of the stresses that are involved in their life from from politics.
00:07:32:23 - 00:07:37:15
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah. And, well, Chuck, and, it's a beautiful thing.
00:07:37:15 - 00:07:40:05
Wilk Wilkinson
It's a beautiful thing when people,
00:07:40:05 - 00:07:58:09
Wilk Wilkinson
want to use their talents, use their skills to help other people. You know, one of the one of the things, you know, talking about that second half thing and, and reaching that point in life where it's like, okay, well, what is my purpose?
00:07:58:14 - 00:08:20:00
Wilk Wilkinson
I know what I'm good at. I know what I've been doing and I've, I've created this thing. But but now what is my purpose and how do I use my skillset to help others get what they want or help others cure what ails them? And that's a that's a it's an incredibly noble thing. It's a beautiful thing. And thank you for that.
00:08:20:02 - 00:08:22:17
Wilk Wilkinson
I do want to hear more about Jungian,
00:08:22:17 - 00:08:24:21
Wilk Wilkinson
psychology and how
00:08:24:21 - 00:08:43:11
Wilk Wilkinson
that works. It's not something I've looked into a lot, but one thing I have looked into a lot, Chuck, is how so many of our friends are suffering, how so many people are looking at the world today, looking at all the things that are around them, that are outside of their control.
00:08:43:13 - 00:08:55:14
Wilk Wilkinson
They have all this information flying at them all the time, but all of these different things that are outside of their control, they are allowing them to to control their
00:08:55:14 - 00:08:57:02
Wilk Wilkinson
emotional capacity,
00:08:57:02 - 00:09:07:07
Wilk Wilkinson
their emotional space is being bombarded by all of these things that are outside of their control. And there's not a lot that some can.
00:09:07:07 - 00:09:24:14
Wilk Wilkinson
Well, there's not a lot that people are finding that they can do to get tangible results for all the pain that they are feeling with all these different things that are going on. So, so I'm, I, I definitely want to hear about how that works.
00:09:24:14 - 00:09:30:07
Wilk Wilkinson
So so let's start by telling people, you know what? You know, Jungian,
00:09:30:07 - 00:09:32:05
Wilk Wilkinson
you know, Carl Jung,
00:09:32:05 - 00:09:38:22
Wilk Wilkinson
the the, the philosophies behind this or the psychology behind this,
00:09:38:22 - 00:09:49:04
Wilk Wilkinson
and then I want to tie that to how this works to help people through some of that helplessness that they're feeling and some of that pain that they're feeling.
00:09:49:06 - 00:09:49:19
Wilk Wilkinson
So let's,
00:09:49:19 - 00:09:55:22
Wilk Wilkinson
let's go right into that. And Jung just for everybody. I was J-U-N-G, right? It's that's right.
00:09:55:22 - 00:10:00:16
Wilk Wilkinson
So, so Jungian psychology. Let's talk a little bit about that. Chuck.
00:10:00:17 - 00:10:01:17
Chuck Gafvert
Absolutely.
00:10:01:17 - 00:10:06:00
Chuck Gafvert
Jung was a very groundbreaking psychologist,
00:10:06:00 - 00:10:07:18
Chuck Gafvert
prolific writer.
00:10:07:18 - 00:10:13:23
Chuck Gafvert
And he he was both a psychologist and a bit of a mystic as well. And,
00:10:13:23 - 00:10:20:01
Chuck Gafvert
he recorded his own experiences. He was a pioneer in dreamwork,
00:10:20:01 - 00:10:27:10
Chuck Gafvert
and believed that you have a conscious mind, but you also have an unconscious mind.
00:10:27:10 - 00:10:31:13
Chuck Gafvert
And the conscious mind has ways to express itself.
00:10:31:14 - 00:10:37:09
Chuck Gafvert
And one of those key areas that it expresses itself is within dreams.
00:10:37:09 - 00:10:47:13
Chuck Gafvert
And it will be in the form of symbols or, you know, visionary tales or stories that can be decoded because these are,
00:10:47:13 - 00:10:52:09
Chuck Gafvert
archetypes and stories are common to mankind. So,
00:10:52:09 - 00:10:54:09
Chuck Gafvert
we've been able to look at,
00:10:54:09 - 00:11:02:19
Chuck Gafvert
people's dreams and kind of figure out what the subconscious is trying to tell them and integrate that into their lives.
00:11:02:21 - 00:11:08:07
Chuck Gafvert
But basically the, the model of young psychology that's,
00:11:08:07 - 00:11:13:11
Chuck Gafvert
I think most interesting and and apropos to what we're discussing here is,
00:11:13:11 - 00:11:39:09
Chuck Gafvert
you have a forward facing personality, and he called that the persona. And that's what we use to be graceful in society and polite to get along with other people. And it's it's kind of like our marketing department wants to show other people that we're good people, and we want to we want to portray our best,
00:11:39:09 - 00:11:40:18
Chuck Gafvert
attributes to others.
00:11:40:22 - 00:12:07:21
Chuck Gafvert
That's our persona. Okay. But then there's other things that are, are, called the shadow. Not because they're evil, it's because it's pushed into a closet in the back of our mind. So these are the attributes that in our patterning, in our learning, in our conditioning as we grow up, are things that we deemed are not socially acceptable.
00:12:07:23 - 00:12:24:00
Chuck Gafvert
And they may or may not be, but we in our learning situation, maybe as children learn to put them in the closet, basically. Okay, so if someone's someone's overly aggressive, perhaps then we learn that that's not,
00:12:24:00 - 00:12:28:02
Chuck Gafvert
that's, that's frowned upon because that's not playing well with others.
00:12:28:02 - 00:12:34:06
Chuck Gafvert
We push that kind of aggression into our shadow closet.
00:12:34:08 - 00:12:35:21
Chuck Gafvert
But the problem is,
00:12:35:21 - 00:12:47:21
Chuck Gafvert
we may not be assertive enough in situations. We may overcompensate by being too agreeable. So by understanding the shadow,
00:12:47:21 - 00:13:00:11
Chuck Gafvert
understanding that aggression can be positive and negative, bringing it out into conscious. And this, it makes it available as a tool that we can use appropriately. So,
00:13:00:11 - 00:13:05:02
Chuck Gafvert
in that aspect, many women kind of suffer from this.
00:13:05:04 - 00:13:10:01
Chuck Gafvert
Women are naturally team players. They get along well. They get along well with others.
00:13:10:01 - 00:13:13:18
Chuck Gafvert
But in the corporate space, I found that they can be,
00:13:13:18 - 00:13:29:12
Chuck Gafvert
they can be kind of looked over because a man in the same situation will advocate for himself. You will say, I want this promotion. I need this promotion. I will be in your office every week.
00:13:29:12 - 00:13:31:19
Chuck Gafvert
This actually happened to me when I was,
00:13:31:19 - 00:13:50:18
Chuck Gafvert
a manager. I will be in your office every week to talk about why I should get a promotion until I get it. Okay. And then women, oftentimes the. Not for all of them, but they have a tendency to be more team oriented where they're not going to they're not going to be self assertive and that's to their detriment.
00:13:50:18 - 00:14:04:00
Chuck Gafvert
So understanding that aspect of the shadow and then integrating it into your personality so that you could be assertive when you need to without being overly aggressive. But assertive as a tool is
00:14:04:00 - 00:14:07:18
Chuck Gafvert
just a small example of what we do with shadow work.
00:14:07:20 - 00:14:11:21
Wilk Wilkinson
Okay. No. And I think that makes a lot of sense. And,
00:14:11:21 - 00:14:18:01
Wilk Wilkinson
you know, I think about I think about my own story here a little bit Chuck, because,
00:14:18:01 - 00:14:20:19
Wilk Wilkinson
now I used to be someone who was,
00:14:20:19 - 00:14:24:10
Wilk Wilkinson
I guess, a far angrier and
00:14:24:10 - 00:14:29:10
Wilk Wilkinson
I had a lot of anger, a lot of animus from things that that happened over the course of my life.
00:14:29:10 - 00:14:37:10
Wilk Wilkinson
I'd blow up easily at different things. And, and and now, you know, I, I've, I've personally, I've changed my life,
00:14:37:10 - 00:14:42:16
Wilk Wilkinson
because, number one, I didn't want to be that person anymore. But,
00:14:42:16 - 00:14:57:08
Wilk Wilkinson
I can see how somebody who has that capacity or, or is that kind of person, but holds that back because it's not socially acceptable, but then can overcompensate.
00:14:57:09 - 00:15:00:08
Wilk Wilkinson
I mean, I can certainly relate to,
00:15:00:08 - 00:15:02:16
Wilk Wilkinson
to that in certain respects.
00:15:02:16 - 00:15:03:08
Wilk Wilkinson
And,
00:15:03:08 - 00:15:04:14
Wilk Wilkinson
I can see how others would,
00:15:04:14 - 00:15:06:18
Wilk Wilkinson
do that as well. So,
00:15:06:18 - 00:15:15:18
Wilk Wilkinson
with that being said, let's let's tie that to the concept of toxic polarization, whether it be,
00:15:15:18 - 00:15:20:11
Wilk Wilkinson
whether it be in a situation where we are,
00:15:20:11 - 00:15:22:18
Wilk Wilkinson
dealing with somebody who,
00:15:22:18 - 00:15:30:04
Wilk Wilkinson
we disagree with politically or, or even internally being able to,
00:15:30:04 - 00:15:34:01
Wilk Wilkinson
being able to deal with political situations.
00:15:34:01 - 00:15:34:17
Wilk Wilkinson
one of the things
00:15:34:17 - 00:15:38:23
Wilk Wilkinson
that I know you talk about is, is being able to release the stress and
00:15:38:23 - 00:15:51:00
Wilk Wilkinson
work through these stressful things, no matter who's elected, you know, still is still being able to be happy, or live a, you know, there's no such thing, in my opinion, as a stress free life.
00:15:51:02 - 00:15:55:09
Wilk Wilkinson
But being able to mitigate those, those stressful factors,
00:15:55:09 - 00:16:06:18
Wilk Wilkinson
So let's try this, this Jungian psychology. What's going on with the shadow part of our persona and the outward part of our persona? And how we work through those things?
00:16:06:18 - 00:16:12:03
Wilk Wilkinson
As part of what you teach, Chuck, and how this how this thing works.
00:16:12:05 - 00:16:13:16
Chuck Gafvert
Yeah, yeah.
00:16:13:16 - 00:16:21:17
Chuck Gafvert
I'm very much focused on the individual taking responsibility for their own life. And like you said, it's on my website.
00:16:21:17 - 00:16:30:13
Chuck Gafvert
If you're waiting for the right person to get elected before you find your inner peace, you're never going to find it, never going to find it. And,
00:16:30:13 - 00:16:38:02
Chuck Gafvert
moreover, you're just giving all the power in your life to an external circumstance that you have no control over.
00:16:38:02 - 00:16:46:18
Chuck Gafvert
So no wonder people are frustrated, stressed, and mentally disturbed and irritated all the time.
00:16:46:18 - 00:16:56:18
Chuck Gafvert
Plus, we we need to recognize that we're living in a what I call a toxic social media environment and news environment. And,
00:16:56:18 - 00:17:03:05
Chuck Gafvert
there's a gentleman by the name of Chase Hughes that has come up with a fake model. Are you familiar with him?
00:17:03:07 - 00:17:17:20
Wilk Wilkinson
I've. I've read some things from Chase Hughes, but I. I don't know him and I haven't followed a lot of his work, but but I've, I've heard the name and and seen some or read some of his work.
00:17:17:22 - 00:17:18:20
Chuck Gafvert
I like his,
00:17:18:20 - 00:17:20:15
Chuck Gafvert
fate framework,
00:17:20:15 - 00:17:27:16
Chuck Gafvert
because it stands for focus, authority, tribalism and emotion. And it's very much,
00:17:27:16 - 00:17:29:23
Chuck Gafvert
in my experience of what I see,
00:17:29:23 - 00:17:45:10
Chuck Gafvert
for people online, you have an authority figure, whether that's a politician or a respected news person, that's giving you very emotional and, content that that is outrageous. It's,
00:17:45:10 - 00:17:47:03
Chuck Gafvert
drives anger.
00:17:47:05 - 00:18:11:10
Chuck Gafvert
So you have these authority figures that are promoting emotionally fueled content. And what that does is it drives people into their tribes because it makes them scared. Even before the election, it was interesting. Both Republicans and Democrats were saying that the other side was an existential threat to democracy. That's right. They they both use the same words.
00:18:11:10 - 00:18:29:11
Chuck Gafvert
They had different reasons. But it was the same energy. Yep. And it's the people may not under even understand that it's happening to them, but they get driven into a tribe because we have 100,000 years of evolution that says being in a tribe,
00:18:29:11 - 00:18:33:22
Chuck Gafvert
promotes safety. Yeah. You, when you're out there by yourself,
00:18:33:22 - 00:18:37:08
Chuck Gafvert
you're much more likely to get picked off by a predator.
00:18:37:10 - 00:18:59:18
Chuck Gafvert
So you stay in your tribe so people naturally gravitate to the tribes because of the emotions that are driven and the fear that separates people. So we need to understand that we're in that toxic media environment. And it's the same thing in media creators. They don't care what happens to your mental state of mind. That's right.
00:18:59:18 - 00:19:03:23
Chuck Gafvert
When they create this stuff, because the incentive is for clicks and views.
00:19:04:00 - 00:19:16:03
Chuck Gafvert
And that's very often done by the most outrageous content that we can have. So the first thing is just to step back and realize that we're in this toxic media environment.
00:19:16:03 - 00:19:37:06
Chuck Gafvert
And then the second thing is to understand that even though it looks like my trigger is Donald Trump or Joe Biden or AOC or whoever, whoever the politician is, that it's really something inside of me that's being pushed, right.
00:19:37:08 - 00:20:00:10
Chuck Gafvert
It's like if I had a splinter in my hand and that that splinter causes pain every time I grab something, you know, I could blame the thing I grab, but it's actually the splinter inside my hand. So, so the the Jungian work has people step back kind of trace the emotion and figure out what it is.
00:20:00:10 - 00:20:08:10
Chuck Gafvert
Where's the pattern that, that we have inside ourselves, what it is that we're believing the causes us to suffer.
00:20:08:10 - 00:20:12:13
Chuck Gafvert
There's a, there's a Jungian psychologist named James Hollis and he,
00:20:12:13 - 00:20:27:16
Chuck Gafvert
he famously said, the thing is not the thing that's. So maybe if you if you're married or in a relationship, you can see this. Your partner gets you pissed off and it's not the actual thing that just happened.
00:20:27:18 - 00:20:59:07
Chuck Gafvert
It's maybe a year's worth of historical baggage or something that's tied to something that happened to me the first time I was in a relationship. Yeah, it's not the thing that happens right away. So the the important first step for my clients is to understand it's not Trump, it's something deeper inside you. That's a that's a pattern. But the good news is if you can find it and bring it to your conscious awareness, it will dissolve.
00:20:59:07 - 00:21:14:07
Chuck Gafvert
And it will not only give you relief and stress reduction from politics, you're probably affected and triggered by other people in your life the same way. Because these patterns aren't isolated, these patterns come out,
00:21:14:07 - 00:21:18:08
Chuck Gafvert
the rest of our lives. Yeah, if that makes sense.
00:21:18:09 - 00:21:19:01
Wilk Wilkinson
Oh, yeah.
00:21:19:01 - 00:21:24:08
Wilk Wilkinson
it absolutely does, Chuck. Because, you know, I, I'm I'm thinking about all these different things here,
00:21:24:08 - 00:21:27:22
Wilk Wilkinson
as you're talking about these things, I'm looking at,
00:21:27:22 - 00:21:48:19
Wilk Wilkinson
at all of these real life scenarios that that fit into exactly what you're talking about and, and how they relate to different scenarios that I've seen from people that I have had conversations with or coached or whatever the case may be right now, when we talk about Chase Hughes and his fate model,
00:21:48:19 - 00:21:52:14
Wilk Wilkinson
you know, I think about one thing that I call it the fog model, right?
00:21:52:14 - 00:21:55:18
Wilk Wilkinson
Fear, outrage and grievance. It's used by,
00:21:55:18 - 00:21:57:07
Wilk Wilkinson
media and politicians
00:21:57:07 - 00:22:28:17
Wilk Wilkinson
and outrage entrepreneurs and grievance grifters in this toxic media or toxic internet ecosystem that we, we all find ourselves in. Right. But but then, then to bring it home. I love the splinter analogy, but to bring it home and and talk about how people okay, so it's not necessarily Trump but you know, now for me, for me, when I think about this kind of thing, right, is or you use the analogy of,
00:22:28:17 - 00:22:31:22
Wilk Wilkinson
something that happens with your spouse or your partner or whatever.
00:22:32:00 - 00:22:59:08
Wilk Wilkinson
For me, you know, it's often not the thing. It's how I react to the thing. And, and I think of and this isn't this isn't part of the spouse analogy, but whether whether it be anything it's I often find myself, Chuck, getting more upset with myself that I'm even reacting to something outside of my control than actually the reaction, if that makes any sense.
00:22:59:11 - 00:23:24:12
Wilk Wilkinson
It's it's really weird. But as somebody who's gone from being a toxic person to now no longer being a toxic person and taking pride in the fact that I don't allow my emotions to dictate my actions when I do find that happening, that compounds my frustration. So it's it's a really a funny paradox, right. But but I okay, so let's go back to,
00:23:24:12 - 00:23:28:06
Wilk Wilkinson
the splinter analogy and how that relates to,
00:23:28:06 - 00:23:32:13
Wilk Wilkinson
say your least favorite or your most triggering politician.
00:23:32:15 - 00:23:36:13
Wilk Wilkinson
Right, Chuck. So, so when we think about,
00:23:36:13 - 00:24:15:03
Wilk Wilkinson
and then we talk about the tribalism. Right. So, so when we, when we find this person who is our biggest trigger, and then all of a sudden we encounter somebody who is a proponent for or a fan of said trigger, now that thing or that person becomes the this person, you know, incarnate, whatever, you know, because that person's not in our immediate circle of influence or our immediate sphere, but now this person is
00:24:15:03 - 00:24:18:00
Wilk Wilkinson
and now we've got something right in front of us.
00:24:18:02 - 00:24:44:08
Wilk Wilkinson
And and now we have our splinter. Talk about that a little bit because, because that's where these things and this I think comes down to a lot, Chuck, where, where people have taken their political identity and made it part of their personal or their core identity. So now that whole thing turns into an assault on our core identity.
00:24:44:10 - 00:24:55:03
Wilk Wilkinson
So I know I threw a lot out there in a short period of time, but you said a whole lot in my mind's going in all these wonderful directions. Not necessarily wonderful, but it makes me think about a lot of the work that I've done
00:24:55:03 - 00:24:56:18
Wilk Wilkinson
and the things that I've seen.
00:24:56:18 - 00:25:18:14
Wilk Wilkinson
And it's, it's hugely important we, we focus in on that or dive in a bit deeper on that and how people can use, you know, these methods that you're using to to help vanquish that. As you said, right. Help to identify it and then kind of break it apart?
00:25:18:16 - 00:25:19:06
Chuck Gafvert
Yeah.
00:25:19:06 - 00:25:21:16
Chuck Gafvert
I talk a little bit about some,
00:25:21:16 - 00:25:23:18
Chuck Gafvert
practical methods that can be done.
00:25:23:18 - 00:25:26:01
Chuck Gafvert
I have a little e-book that I wrote.
00:25:26:01 - 00:25:30:10
Chuck Gafvert
It's called five Ways to Immediately Start Reducing Stress and Politics.
00:25:30:10 - 00:25:43:16
Chuck Gafvert
But I found that when you're unless you've done the inner work and you get into a situation where you encounter your splinter, you're not going to react well.
00:25:43:18 - 00:25:44:11
Chuck Gafvert
So,
00:25:44:11 - 00:25:47:13
Chuck Gafvert
until the time that you're ready,
00:25:47:13 - 00:25:54:06
Chuck Gafvert
it may be appropriate to kind of like back off and not put yourself in those situations.
00:25:54:06 - 00:25:58:21
Chuck Gafvert
I tell people, take a break from social media, take a break from news.
00:25:58:21 - 00:26:04:07
Chuck Gafvert
Really be responsible for what you're putting in your brain.
00:26:04:07 - 00:26:06:14
Chuck Gafvert
And when I, when I first,
00:26:06:14 - 00:26:20:14
Chuck Gafvert
kind of got a hold of this fact, I went through every, you know, YouTube subscription, every person I was subscribed to on X and Facebook and I, I got rid of about half of them,
00:26:20:14 - 00:26:26:21
Chuck Gafvert
because a lot of them were just content that was echoing the same thing in my chamber.
00:26:26:21 - 00:26:32:17
Chuck Gafvert
It was, hey, let's take this latest news article and tell you what you already knew,
00:26:32:17 - 00:26:38:11
Chuck Gafvert
in an entertaining way, but it wasn't really giving you any insight on how to,
00:26:38:11 - 00:26:45:01
Chuck Gafvert
bridge the gap at all. So that can also that can often be step one.
00:26:45:01 - 00:26:46:09
Chuck Gafvert
Is just to take
00:26:46:09 - 00:26:50:06
Chuck Gafvert
take a break and work on yourself for a while.
00:26:50:08 - 00:26:51:06
Chuck Gafvert
I find that,
00:26:51:06 - 00:27:19:19
Chuck Gafvert
just understanding that giving people space to be wrong, even if it's everyone has the right to be wrong. Yes. And I have to get over the, notion or the feeling, and it's just pure ego that I'm going to teach somebody something. They're wrong. They they have a wrong view.
00:27:19:19 - 00:27:23:05
Chuck Gafvert
Unless I can honestly talk to them.
00:27:23:05 - 00:27:47:17
Chuck Gafvert
And without that, that ego flaring up, I have no business engaging them because, they're just going to be defensive about it because I am not approaching them from. Please explain to me your world. I want to enter into it. And and we all have the capacity to enter into somebody else's world. And once in a while you'll see people flip affiliations.
00:27:47:17 - 00:27:56:11
Chuck Gafvert
They're like, I was a Republican for a long time now. I feel like I'm a Democrat or I was always conservative. Now I feel more liberal or,
00:27:56:11 - 00:28:03:21
Chuck Gafvert
you know, the Democratic Party left me behind. Now I'm something else. I'm independent so people can change. And,
00:28:03:21 - 00:28:07:23
Chuck Gafvert
there has been stories of transformative change, but,
00:28:07:23 - 00:28:14:15
Chuck Gafvert
unless you're willing to give a little separation on what you think,
00:28:14:15 - 00:28:18:07
Chuck Gafvert
are your views that are the right ones?
00:28:18:09 - 00:28:22:13
Chuck Gafvert
There's really not much that can happen. I don't solicit people,
00:28:22:13 - 00:28:25:20
Chuck Gafvert
that are firmly entrenched in their beliefs. That's,
00:28:25:20 - 00:28:43:19
Chuck Gafvert
without any, any leeway to get in there. But matter of fact, I'm not interested in changing anybody's political beliefs. I want them to be clear, you know, clear of the emotions and ego that come up that obscure,
00:28:43:19 - 00:28:55:07
Chuck Gafvert
when you're talking to somebody else because you can't really see them as who they are when you've got a mental picture of them being, oh, they're part of the other side,
00:28:55:07 - 00:29:06:23
Chuck Gafvert
you know, they're the, the, the deplorables or they're the leotards or whatever, you know, derogatory term we use for each other.
00:29:07:01 - 00:29:15:13
Chuck Gafvert
That's a label. That's not who that person is. No one is just their political affiliation. But,
00:29:15:13 - 00:29:22:04
Chuck Gafvert
until we're willing to step back and realize, okay, we got to separate these things from who we are,
00:29:22:04 - 00:29:34:00
Chuck Gafvert
not much can be done, but that's that's my job as a coach. It's to show people that they are not their ego, that there's something much more than their ego.
00:29:34:02 - 00:29:34:06
Wilk Wilkinson
Oh,
00:29:34:06 - 00:29:38:06
Wilk Wilkinson
a lot of important points there to Chuck when we, when we think about
00:29:38:06 - 00:29:40:02
Wilk Wilkinson
people certainty or
00:29:40:02 - 00:29:47:01
Wilk Wilkinson
you talked about not soliciting people who are so, so strongly entrenched in their positions and, and things like that. Not,
00:29:47:01 - 00:29:55:14
Wilk Wilkinson
trying to change people's mind. One of the things that I say quite often, on this podcast and in my talks is, is I'm not here to change people's minds.
00:29:55:14 - 00:30:16:11
Wilk Wilkinson
I'm just here to open them. You know, the only way that we can ever course correct on anything is to have an open enough mind to admit that we might be wrong, and that's for anybody. You know, certainty stands in the way of more learning, Chuck, than than almost anything else. And I think you said, you know, so many great things there.
00:30:16:11 - 00:30:16:19
Wilk Wilkinson
And,
00:30:16:19 - 00:30:17:04
Wilk Wilkinson
this,
00:30:17:04 - 00:30:45:21
Wilk Wilkinson
five step e-book that you have on, on how to reduce your political stress and why it's important that we do. So, you know, kind of going back to something that we talked a little bit about earlier in the conversation. Chuck, is, is, is how people have allowed themselves so many people, you know, and this is just a compounding problem to the, the taking your political identity and making it part of your core identity.
00:30:45:23 - 00:30:51:15
Wilk Wilkinson
But the, the fact that we have allowed as, as in my opinion, as part of this,
00:30:51:15 - 00:31:04:10
Wilk Wilkinson
internet ecosystem, you know, social media age, whatever the fact that we've allowed so many things outside of our control to affect our lives as individuals,
00:31:04:10 - 00:31:06:09
Wilk Wilkinson
I think is one of the great,
00:31:06:09 - 00:31:10:07
Wilk Wilkinson
disasters of our generation, of our lifetime.
00:31:10:09 - 00:31:29:15
Wilk Wilkinson
The fact that that so many of these things, you know, it used to be back in the day when we were kids, Chuck, there was not a lot of this ugliness because there was, you know, 1 or 2, you know, newscast that we would catch on our three stations that we had on our television. Right? And they were just given, you know, just the facts and,
00:31:29:15 - 00:31:31:21
Wilk Wilkinson
we didn't have these 24 hour news cycles.
00:31:31:21 - 00:31:49:02
Wilk Wilkinson
We didn't have the internet. We didn't have all this ugliness hitting us 24 hours a day and and bombarding us. Now we have all this stuff hitting us, you know, these e-books like, like this work that you're doing to help people politically detox. Chuck. So incredibly important,
00:31:49:02 - 00:31:52:11
Wilk Wilkinson
for our own mental well-being. So I love the fact that
00:31:52:11 - 00:31:56:23
Wilk Wilkinson
you've introduced me to to this Jungian psychology and
00:31:56:23 - 00:31:59:16
Wilk Wilkinson
more of the DTH listeners than myself.
00:31:59:18 - 00:32:01:08
Wilk Wilkinson
I do appreciate that.
00:32:01:08 - 00:32:09:04
Wilk Wilkinson
I want you to tell the listeners, Chuck, where can they find out more about you and how do they get this five step e-book? And,
00:32:09:04 - 00:32:12:23
Wilk Wilkinson
and then we'll, we'll kind of wrap this one up. So much greatness in this conversation.
00:32:12:23 - 00:32:14:13
Chuck Gafvert
Now that's great.
00:32:14:13 - 00:32:16:00
Chuck Gafvert
Yeah, I've enjoyed it.
00:32:16:00 - 00:32:19:01
Chuck Gafvert
People can reach me on X, the former Twitter
00:32:19:01 - 00:32:21:15
Chuck Gafvert
Chuck Gafvert, @ChuckGafvert.
00:32:21:15 - 00:32:24:22
Chuck Gafvert
My website is ChuckGafvert.com
00:32:24:22 - 00:32:27:16
Chuck Gafvert
I'm on Facebook is Chuck Gafvert and,
00:32:27:16 - 00:32:28:14
Chuck Gafvert
LinkedIn,
00:32:28:14 - 00:32:30:08
Chuck Gafvert
strangely enough, is is,
00:32:30:08 - 00:32:33:09
Chuck Gafvert
interesting place to reach out to people about this.
00:32:33:09 - 00:32:34:00
Chuck Gafvert
And I've
00:32:34:00 - 00:32:36:00
Chuck Gafvert
been able to do that with some success.
00:32:36:00 - 00:32:36:21
Chuck Gafvert
So,
00:32:36:21 - 00:32:39:03
Chuck Gafvert
yeah. And if people go to my website,
00:32:39:03 - 00:32:45:03
Chuck Gafvert
there's a form there. It says, get your e-book and you just put your email,
00:32:45:03 - 00:32:50:04
Chuck Gafvert
in, and that puts you on my subscription list. I don't spam anybody. I don't sell it.
00:32:50:04 - 00:32:55:04
Chuck Gafvert
I'm sending out, basically a newsletter once a week,
00:32:55:04 - 00:32:59:01
Chuck Gafvert
with some content that might be interesting for people, but they can,
00:32:59:01 - 00:33:00:12
Chuck Gafvert
unsubscribe at any time.
00:33:00:14 - 00:33:03:08
Chuck Gafvert
So those are the main ways to reach me. And,
00:33:03:08 - 00:33:15:09
Chuck Gafvert
if people are interested to, to set up a consult with me, a little 30 minute insight session, I'd be happy to go with them a little bit more and see if they were a candidate for, additional coaching.
00:33:15:11 - 00:33:18:13
Wilk Wilkinson
Beautiful. I do appreciate it. Chuck Gafvert
00:33:18:13 - 00:33:24:05
Wilk Wilkinson
and then I also know that you've recently attended some braver Angels event in the DC area, which,
00:33:24:05 - 00:33:25:20
Wilk Wilkinson
you know, maybe we'll run into each other,
00:33:25:20 - 00:33:30:05
Wilk Wilkinson
one of these Braver Angels events and get to do some stuff together in person.
00:33:30:05 - 00:33:32:07
Wilk Wilkinson
So, ChuckGafvert.com
00:33:32:07 - 00:33:34:04
Wilk Wilkinson
go to there, check out the five step,
00:33:34:04 - 00:33:36:16
Wilk Wilkinson
five steps to reduce your political stress.
00:33:36:18 - 00:33:37:07
Wilk Wilkinson
And,
00:33:37:07 - 00:33:38:15
Wilk Wilkinson
all this information will be in the
00:33:38:15 - 00:33:47:10
Wilk Wilkinson
Show notes. Chuck Gafvert, thank you so much for joining me on the Derate The Hate podcast. I appreciate your time today. And, stay well, my friend, this is fantastic.
00:33:47:12 - 00:33:54:04
Chuck Gafvert
Wilk, thank you so much for what you're doing. Enjoy being here.
00:33:54:04 - 00:34:13:08
Wilk Wilkinson
Friends. If there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. Share it with your friends, share it far and wide. And of course, if you haven't done so already, be sure to subscribe right from our website so you can get the Derate The Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week.
00:34:13:09 - 00:34:29:09
Wilk Wilkinson
So this is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything that you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make each and every day the day that you want it to be. If there is something that you would like to share with me, you can catch me on most social media platforms.
00:34:29:14 - 00:34:55:03
Wilk Wilkinson
Or you can email me directly. Wilk@WilksWorld.com. With that, my friends, I am going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
00:34:55:05 - 00:35:00:10
Wilk Wilkinson
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