Show Notes

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🎙 Episode 270 – From Polarization to Proactive Citizenship: A Conversation with Braver Angels Co-Founder Dr. Bill Doherty

In this special milestone episode—the first officially produced in collaboration with Braver Angels—Wilk Wilkinson sits down with Dr. Bill Doherty, co-founder of Braver Angels, professor at the University of Minnesota, and nationally recognized expert in family therapy and civic healing.

Together, they explore the urgent need for a thick view of citizenship in today’s polarized world. This is not about partisan politics—it’s about restoring a sense of shared responsibility in our communities through intentional dialogue and real problem-solving.

🔍 Key Topics:

✅ The origin story of Braver Angels after the 2016 election
✅ What “thin” vs. “thick” citizenship means and why it matters
✅ How structured conversations can transform toxic divides
✅ Why personal accountability is essential in civic life
✅ How community problems like safety and education require all of us

💬 Memorable Quotes:

“We are responsible collectively for solving problems.”
“Community safety is the work of all of us.”
“Do I want to be part of the solution or the problem?”

🧩 Whether you lean left, right, or somewhere in between, this episode will challenge and inspire you to reclaim your role as a citizen—not just a spectator.

👉 Ready to be part of the solution?
Subscribe to the Derate The Hate podcast and check out BraverAngels.org to join the movement.

The world is a better place if we are better people. That begins with each of us as individuals. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for all you’ve got. Make every day the day that you want it to be!

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Subscribe to us wherever you enjoy your audio or from our site. Please leave us a rating and feedback on Apple podcasts or other platforms. You can share your thoughts or request Wilk for a speaking engagement on our contact page: DerateTheHate.com/Contact

The Derate The Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels — America’s largest grassroots, cross-partisan organization working toward civic renewal and bridging partisan divides. Learn more: BraverAngels.org

Welcome to the Derate The Hate Podcast!

*The views expressed by Wilk, his guest hosts &/or guests on the Derate The Hate podcast are their own and should not be attributed to any organization they may otherwise be affiliated with.

Show Transcript

**Transcript is AI generated and may contain errors

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:49:09

Wilk Wilkinson

Welcome back, my friends, for the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by FOG: and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross Partizan organization working towards civic renewal.

00:00:49:11 - 00:01:16:15

Wilk Wilkinson

This podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ.

00:01:16:17 - 00:01:39:17

Wilk Wilkinson

Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Share it with a friend and visit BraverAngels.org to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partisan divide.

00:01:40:05 - 00:01:49:00

Wilk Wilkinson

Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it.

00:01:49:00 - 00:02:15:10

Wilk Wilkinson

Welcome to the first official episode of the Derate The Hate podcast, produced in collaboration with Braver Angels. In this landmark conversation, I am honored to be joined by one of the co-founders of Braver Angels, doctor Bill Doherty, renowned family therapist, professor and thought leader in civic renewal. In this episode, we dive into what it really means to be a citizen not just in name, but in action.

00:02:15:12 - 00:02:38:23

Wilk Wilkinson

Bill shares the story behind Braver Angels founding in the wake of the 2016 election, and challenges the thin idea of citizenship that stops at voting and paying taxes. Instead, he introduces the concept of thick citizenship, a way of life rooted in personal responsibility, structured conversations, and collective problem solving.

00:02:38:23 - 00:02:48:20

Wilk Wilkinson

We explore how meaningful engagement and listening to understand, not just respond, can be powerful tools in healing our nation's divides.

00:02:48:21 - 00:02:58:12

Wilk Wilkinson

Friends, if you are ready to stop blaming and start building, this conversation is for you. Let's get into it with my friend, doctor Bill Doherty. Here we go.

00:02:58:12 - 00:03:03:01

Wilk Wilkinson

Doctor Bill Doherty, thank you so much for joining me on the Derate the Hate podcast. Man, you,

00:03:03:01 - 00:03:06:04

Wilk Wilkinson

you've been dodging me for years. And finally I got you on.

00:03:06:06 - 00:03:13:23

Dr. Bill Doherty

It was a moment of weakness. You got me Wilk, and I said yes. Now I'm actually happy to be. I've been waiting for you to ask me, man.

00:03:14:01 - 00:03:22:23

Wilk Wilkinson

I know, and, you know, when I, when you and I were talking the other day, I'm like, how is it that we have not done an episode together? And,

00:03:22:23 - 00:03:25:11

Wilk Wilkinson

right then I knew we had to make it happen because,

00:03:25:11 - 00:03:25:23

Wilk Wilkinson

out of the.

00:03:25:23 - 00:03:29:23

Wilk Wilkinson

I don't know how many conversations you and I have had, Bill, but but,

00:03:29:23 - 00:03:39:05

Wilk Wilkinson

I, I always enjoy our conversations, and now we're finally doing one for the podcast, so I can't tell you how grateful I am for that.

00:03:39:07 - 00:03:40:21

Dr. Bill Doherty

Glad to be with you.

00:03:40:23 - 00:03:42:11

Wilk Wilkinson

So grateful man.

00:03:42:11 - 00:03:43:02

Wilk Wilkinson

So, Bill,

00:03:43:02 - 00:03:49:17

Wilk Wilkinson

first for the listeners, for any anybody who, who is not familiar with you, I mean, which,

00:03:49:17 - 00:03:57:08

Wilk Wilkinson

a lot of the listeners are already familiar with Braver Angels, the work we do at Braver Angels. But those who may not be,

00:03:57:08 - 00:03:58:07

Wilk Wilkinson

familiar.

00:03:58:07 - 00:03:59:19

Wilk Wilkinson

Doctor Bill Doherty is one of

00:03:59:19 - 00:04:03:15

Wilk Wilkinson

the co-founders of the Braver Angels organization.

00:04:03:17 - 00:04:07:05

Wilk Wilkinson

Back in 2016, got together with,

00:04:07:05 - 00:04:10:05

Wilk Wilkinson

David Blankenhorn, David Lapp, and,

00:04:10:05 - 00:04:16:09

Wilk Wilkinson

developed what has become just this incredible organization bridging divides,

00:04:16:09 - 00:04:17:06

Wilk Wilkinson

working towards,

00:04:17:06 - 00:04:38:10

Wilk Wilkinson

depolarization in, in, in so many ways for, for our country. So, so, Bill, let's start off with you telling the listeners where this thing started for you. I mean, I know you're a bridge builder from way back as a as a marriage counselor, but how did you, you know, get together with,

00:04:38:10 - 00:04:38:20

Wilk Wilkinson

with,

00:04:38:20 - 00:04:39:09

Wilk Wilkinson

David,

00:04:39:09 - 00:04:42:05

Wilk Wilkinson

the Davids, David Lapp and David Blankenhorn,

00:04:42:05 - 00:04:44:21

Wilk Wilkinson

to get this, this thing started.

00:04:44:23 - 00:04:50:07

Dr. Bill Doherty

It's funny you wrote sometimes people say, what was the strategic plan? Okay.

00:04:50:07 - 00:04:54:10

Dr. Bill Doherty

There was no strategic plan. I was sitting at this desk,

00:04:54:10 - 00:05:04:14

Dr. Bill Doherty

a couple of weeks after the 2016 presidential election. I got a phone call from David Blankenhorn, who had a long term colleague and friend lives in New York City. And,

00:05:04:14 - 00:05:16:21

Dr. Bill Doherty

he'd been on the phone with this with another colleague and friend, David Lapp, who lives in South Lebanon, Ohio, talking about that memorable election, which I think was equally shocking to the Trump voters and Hillary Clinton.

00:05:16:21 - 00:05:19:03

Dr. Bill Doherty

But, I mean, you know, it was just like, whoa.

00:05:19:03 - 00:05:26:12

Dr. Bill Doherty

And they were talking about how people were feeling in New York City, where the world was ending. And it was it was a funeral,

00:05:26:12 - 00:05:27:00

Dr. Bill Doherty

and,

00:05:27:00 - 00:05:32:07

Dr. Bill Doherty

and south Lebanon in Ohio, southwest Ohio, it was morning in America. Hope and change. Okay.

00:05:32:07 - 00:05:50:21

Dr. Bill Doherty

And on that call, they decided kind of impulsively and to get ten Hillary Clinton voters and ten Donald Trump voters together for 13 hours over a weekend in early December, a couple weeks later, and in south Lebanon, Ohio, to see if they could talk with each other and not just about each other.

00:05:50:21 - 00:05:58:00

Dr. Bill Doherty

Okay. See if they could find anything in common. And so, David told me that and I said, man, that that is really brave.

00:05:58:00 - 00:06:07:03

Dr. Bill Doherty

And, what were you thinking of doing with them when you got them together? And he kind of hemmed and hawed and said, well, they didn't exactly know that, but they thought maybe I could figure that part out.

00:06:07:05 - 00:06:20:13

Dr. Bill Doherty

Okay. And and I swear, I was hoping I was not free, you know, look at my calendar. Oh, man. I would have been there at the drop of a hat. Right. But I was free. And and the serious thing is, I just felt like,

00:06:20:13 - 00:06:24:23

Dr. Bill Doherty

patriotic duty to try. Okay. We were so divided.

00:06:24:23 - 00:06:36:06

Dr. Bill Doherty

So, so I, you know, brought in everything I knew from couples counseling to working with community groups I've been doing for some time, put together the program, facilitate.

00:06:36:08 - 00:06:38:16

Dr. Bill Doherty

And it was a powerful experience. And,

00:06:38:16 - 00:06:52:19

Dr. Bill Doherty

but I thought it would be a one off, you know, just ask me what I did back then. But we kept going, and the group wanted a reunion. Cash and another frequent flier ticket flew back to South Lebanon, and we just decided to keep going. So that's how it got started.

00:06:52:21 - 00:06:58:04

Wilk Wilkinson

That's so incredible. And and the work that's been done with this organization.

00:06:58:04 - 00:06:58:18

Wilk Wilkinson

Bill,

00:06:58:18 - 00:07:01:06

Wilk Wilkinson

over the last, you know, nine,

00:07:01:06 - 00:07:07:11

Wilk Wilkinson

nine plus years going on ten years now has has just been nothing short of amazing,

00:07:07:11 - 00:07:09:20

Wilk Wilkinson

becoming the, the the nation's,

00:07:09:20 - 00:07:12:16

Wilk Wilkinson

largest grassroots organization,

00:07:12:16 - 00:07:14:14

Wilk Wilkinson

working towards, bridge building,

00:07:14:14 - 00:07:16:01

Wilk Wilkinson

bridging the divide.

00:07:16:01 - 00:07:17:13

Wilk Wilkinson

You know, political,

00:07:17:13 - 00:07:28:20

Wilk Wilkinson

this toxic polarization thing has toxic polarization in itself, has become this, this ugly little leviathan that that just needs,

00:07:28:20 - 00:07:33:22

Wilk Wilkinson

needs an organization like this to meet the moment.

00:07:33:22 - 00:07:36:03

Wilk Wilkinson

Because if it doesn't,

00:07:36:03 - 00:07:46:17

Wilk Wilkinson

in my opinion, which is why I'm so passionate about doing this work, if it doesn't, I fear for what's going to happen to the country. And so. So, yeah,

00:07:46:17 - 00:07:47:13

Wilk Wilkinson

those fateful,

00:07:47:13 - 00:07:55:23

Wilk Wilkinson

meetings back in, in 2016 that turned into this thing that that now you and I are both so passionate about

00:07:55:23 - 00:07:58:09

Wilk Wilkinson

is just a gift, in my opinion, from God,

00:07:58:09 - 00:08:12:12

Wilk Wilkinson

because we we have to do I mean, it's it's one of these things now that it it's used a duty to country kind of thing, you know, this is what needs to be done to, to make us whole again because we're

00:08:12:15 - 00:08:31:22

Wilk Wilkinson

we're definitely broken. We're hurting. So so with that said, let's let's kind of take it to where we are today and a conversation that you and I were having recently about the importance of citizenship. And, and I know one of the things that we're doing at Braver Angels is,

00:08:31:22 - 00:08:34:23

Wilk Wilkinson

we're talking a lot about citizen led solutions now.

00:08:35:01 - 00:08:45:08

Wilk Wilkinson

And, and a lot of people, I think a lot of people Bill, have forgotten what citizenship is and what it means to be a citizen. And,

00:08:45:19 - 00:08:55:15

Wilk Wilkinson

how effective citizen engagement can really play a part in rebuilding what has become broken through this toxic polarization thing. So let's,

00:08:55:15 - 00:08:56:22

Wilk Wilkinson

let's start there,

00:08:56:22 - 00:08:59:11

Wilk Wilkinson

with the next part of this conversation and.

00:08:59:12 - 00:09:07:17

Wilk Wilkinson

Yeah. And you tell me what you think citizenship is and and what effective citizen leadership is.

00:09:07:19 - 00:09:11:00

Dr. Bill Doherty

Yeah. Well, the idea of the citizen has gotten kind of,

00:09:11:00 - 00:09:12:06

Dr. Bill Doherty

watered down.

00:09:12:06 - 00:09:12:20

Dr. Bill Doherty

To,

00:09:12:20 - 00:09:29:13

Dr. Bill Doherty

the sort of civics thing, you know, you are you a legal, you know, citizen born here or naturalized citizen or you not, you know, and, and sort of the narrow definition and, and observes and, and then the voting, you know, voting becomes, you know, what you do as a citizen,

00:09:29:13 - 00:09:31:12

Dr. Bill Doherty

and, you know, pay your taxes or whatever.

00:09:31:12 - 00:09:35:15

Dr. Bill Doherty

And that's a very thin definition of a citizen. Right.

00:09:35:15 - 00:09:41:06

Dr. Bill Doherty

And, and one of the problems with that, it really suggests that the problems we have,

00:09:41:06 - 00:09:52:12

Dr. Bill Doherty

are going to have to be solved by government, by professionals, by somebody else, because we just we just vote on the people who are going to fix us. Okay. I see how that's worked out right.

00:09:52:14 - 00:09:53:15

Dr. Bill Doherty

And so,

00:09:53:15 - 00:09:59:16

Dr. Bill Doherty

so a thick view of, of citizenship is, is the we the people,

00:09:59:16 - 00:10:01:03

Dr. Bill Doherty

are responsible

00:10:01:03 - 00:10:22:09

Dr. Bill Doherty

collectively for identifying our priorities, solving problems, finding ways to, you know, to to have a life together that we are responsible for. So, you know, at the same time as I help Braver Angels get started, I started a project that's also been going on for eight years,

00:10:22:09 - 00:10:25:00

Dr. Bill Doherty

Police and Black Men project in Minneapolis.

00:10:25:02 - 00:10:25:23

Dr. Bill Doherty

A group of of,

00:10:25:23 - 00:10:26:15

Dr. Bill Doherty

of eight,

00:10:26:15 - 00:10:38:18

Dr. Bill Doherty

officers, eight black men from the community. And what we came to is the community safety is the work of all of us is the work of citizens and,

00:10:38:18 - 00:10:53:17

Dr. Bill Doherty

of citizen officers, if you will. Everybody can't you can't hand over to the problems of crime and the and the pursuit of safety to professionals and expect them to solve it.

00:10:53:21 - 00:11:05:15

Dr. Bill Doherty

It has to be all of us together. That's right. It's the same way with schools, health care. Everything is the work of we the people that that's the robust idea of citizen. I love it.

00:11:05:17 - 00:11:08:04

Wilk Wilkinson

I love it and and calling it, you know,

00:11:08:04 - 00:11:11:21

Wilk Wilkinson

the thick view of citizenship versus the thin view of citizenship.

00:11:11:21 - 00:11:18:18

Wilk Wilkinson

I mean, the thin view in my mind, I'm thinking, okay, just the absolute bare minimum. Right? Well, I pay my taxes, I go out and vote,

00:11:18:18 - 00:11:27:03

Wilk Wilkinson

you know that doing the bare minimum, well, as you said it, look what it's gotten us, right.

00:11:27:08 - 00:11:44:02

Wilk Wilkinson

I mean, they expecting politicians to to come in with some kind of a cape and be our savior just is not, in my opinion, my personal view and my personal life experience. That's not going to get it done. As you've heard me say before,

00:11:44:02 - 00:11:47:07

Wilk Wilkinson

unfortunately, far too often those who represent us,

00:11:47:07 - 00:11:50:06

Wilk Wilkinson

are just far too often not the best of us.

00:11:50:08 - 00:12:04:21

Wilk Wilkinson

And and that's what we get from this thin view of citizenship. Yeah. People not actively engaging in what it means to actually look at what the problems are and how do we best or most effectively,

00:12:04:21 - 00:12:10:00

Wilk Wilkinson

address those problems. And that really starts with each of us, each of us and we the people.

00:12:10:02 - 00:12:16:14

Dr. Bill Doherty

Yeah. And so one of the things that happens is the more politicians are more liberal on the left,

00:12:16:14 - 00:12:34:01

Dr. Bill Doherty

they want they will promise that government will do more and solve our problems. Okay. Politicians on the right say, well, well, we'll make sure you don't pay too many taxes and we'll deregulate. Get the government off your back. But both of them have a thin view of citizenship.

00:12:34:03 - 00:12:37:16

Dr. Bill Doherty

Okay. All right. So some on the right, it's like,

00:12:37:16 - 00:12:43:00

Dr. Bill Doherty

minimize government. But then what? Then what? Okay. Then what happens after that?

00:12:43:00 - 00:12:54:20

Dr. Bill Doherty

And of course, people on the left, you know, it's what's called the vending machine approach to, you know, test citizenship. You know, you know, you pay your tax and you get stuff back. Okay.

00:12:54:20 - 00:12:56:04

Dr. Bill Doherty

And of course, there's a place for that.

00:12:56:04 - 00:13:03:15

Dr. Bill Doherty

We need our, you know, get Social Security and other things. But but I'm saying that our political leaders left, right and center,

00:13:03:15 - 00:13:11:06

Dr. Bill Doherty

have a thin view of citizenship. So, you know, I'm old enough to remember when John F Kennedy gave his,

00:13:11:06 - 00:13:16:14

Dr. Bill Doherty

inaugural address and he said memorably, ask not what your country can do for you.

00:13:16:14 - 00:13:28:04

Dr. Bill Doherty

Ask what you can do for your country. And we were inspired by that. Okay. Anybody who said that now and politician, unfortunately, would be laughed at.

00:13:28:05 - 00:13:36:14

Wilk Wilkinson

That's right, that's right. No. And unfortunately that idea of ask what you can do for your country,

00:13:36:14 - 00:13:51:05

Wilk Wilkinson

people, people have lost sight of that. And you're right, they'd probably be laughed off the stage. Right. Because because people are like, no, I don't have to do anything. I'm just here, you know, it's up to you guys to, to to solve my problems.

00:13:51:05 - 00:13:59:06

Wilk Wilkinson

And, and you know, this is, this is another thing that that I think people have lost sight of and I see it quite often is,

00:13:59:06 - 00:14:13:02

Wilk Wilkinson

those who believe that government is either the cause of or the solution to all of your problems have a, have a very they need a paradigm shift is what they mean because neither is true.

00:14:13:04 - 00:14:33:05

Dr. Bill Doherty

Neither is. Now, I'm glad you said that, because it's the sort of the the the mistake of the left to think the government is the solution, but it's a, it's the mistake of the right to say the government is the problem. And so if I go back to the policing thing paradigm, one is that the problem is bad policing.

00:14:33:10 - 00:14:55:23

Dr. Bill Doherty

If we only cleaned up the police department, then, you know, our problems would be solved, you know. Well, no, you know, obviously policing needs to, you know, reform and keep changing as all institutions do. But the the second, second paradigm is while the problem is that, people in the, you know, low income communities, commit too many crimes and they got a, you know, raise your kids better.

00:14:56:04 - 00:14:57:16

Dr. Bill Doherty

Yeah. Okay.

00:14:57:16 - 00:15:05:11

Dr. Bill Doherty

But but, it takes it sort of points the finger. Somebody else, somebody else other than all of us,

00:15:05:11 - 00:15:08:08

Dr. Bill Doherty

has to be responsible for solving the problem.

00:15:08:10 - 00:15:12:12

Wilk Wilkinson

Right. And and I think this is, this goes to the point where,

00:15:12:12 - 00:15:32:16

Wilk Wilkinson

people have lost sight of the fact that the community is is a is a joint effort, right? I mean, we we are human beings, are communal figures. We we are people that that need other people to survive. I mean, that's that's the way that, this thing has worked for so long.

00:15:32:18 - 00:15:34:03

Wilk Wilkinson

What I fear now,

00:15:34:03 - 00:15:39:05

Wilk Wilkinson

Bill, is far too often either you get people,

00:15:39:05 - 00:15:55:06

Wilk Wilkinson

on on, say, my side of the political spectrum that are, you know, maybe to that extreme on that side that think, oh, well, no, we don't need anybody. We just need ourselves. And you can't tell me what to do. And I I've got no responsibility to anybody but myself.

00:15:55:08 - 00:15:57:23

Wilk Wilkinson

And then you've got people on the other side that, that,

00:15:57:23 - 00:16:18:07

Wilk Wilkinson

of the political spectrum that are like, well, it's all about community. And community takes precedence over the citizen, over the individual. So what we're going to do that all the while ignoring the fact that we can't even come to a common solution on what the root cause of most of these problems are.

00:16:18:09 - 00:16:51:02

Wilk Wilkinson

Often, again, politicians will will pretend to, in my opinion, have the answer to to some thing, but never fully define what the root cause of that thing is. There's no real root cause problem solving taking place. So then what happens is the whole solution, or we start solving for problems that aren't problems in every area, and it just creates more problems.

00:16:51:03 - 00:17:08:22

Wilk Wilkinson

Talk to me about the importance of ineffective communities and as, again, effective citizenship, talk to me about how important actual root cause problem solving is before we pretend to solve problems that most people haven't even defined.

00:17:09:00 - 00:17:11:09

Dr. Bill Doherty

Yeah, yeah. Well,

00:17:11:09 - 00:17:11:22

Dr. Bill Doherty

let's take

00:17:11:22 - 00:17:16:05

Dr. Bill Doherty

public education. Let's take the fact that our kids are,

00:17:16:05 - 00:17:21:06

Dr. Bill Doherty

falling behind, you know, just, you know, international comparisons.

00:17:21:06 - 00:17:23:17

Dr. Bill Doherty

You know, we're just we're not doing that. Well,

00:17:23:17 - 00:17:38:15

Dr. Bill Doherty

and so the root cause thing is hard to to put your finger on, you know, why are we falling behind? But it seems that what we do is we we decide that,

00:17:38:15 - 00:17:43:00

Dr. Bill Doherty

we're going to, we're going to solve it by,

00:17:43:00 - 00:17:45:21

Dr. Bill Doherty

putting professionals onto this.

00:17:45:23 - 00:17:53:20

Dr. Bill Doherty

Okay. So I want to talk about professionals, not only government. Okay. So you teachers schools. Okay. And then what we do is we debate,

00:17:53:20 - 00:18:14:05

Dr. Bill Doherty

public education, charter schools, funding for private education. And we assume the assumption there is that the problem and the solution is all in those buildings. Okay. Yeah. And in the schools. Okay. I call a building centric approach to defining the problem and the solution.

00:18:14:07 - 00:18:15:14

Dr. Bill Doherty

It's like in health care,

00:18:15:14 - 00:18:34:18

Dr. Bill Doherty

it's all about what happens in the building where, as we know, in health care that, you know, 85% or so of of of work is into maintaining health is what we do at home in our communities. Okay? Right. So, so with education is the same thing. We know from, you know, modern studies that,

00:18:34:18 - 00:18:43:14

Dr. Bill Doherty

they proportion of kids aptitude for learning occurs before they hit the, the public school system.

00:18:43:16 - 00:18:55:01

Dr. Bill Doherty

Okay. It's you know, from infancy on, we know that the kids whose parents talk to them and read to them and sing to them and blah, blah, blah, and those kids get this brain stimulation. Okay.

00:18:55:01 - 00:19:02:20

Dr. Bill Doherty

And also how parents combined love and limits with the kids so that the kid feels loved, but also doesn't think that they can't run the world.

00:19:02:22 - 00:19:08:17

Dr. Bill Doherty

All that's happening before they hit the educational system. Okay.

00:19:08:17 - 00:19:24:12

Dr. Bill Doherty

And then we also know that how much parents are involved in their kids education, once they get to school, is another big time. So we're now talking about two thirds or so, right? Just making up that number, talking about the majority of what's going to happen with kids.

00:19:24:12 - 00:19:30:07

Dr. Bill Doherty

Education is not what the teacher does and the what happens in the building.

00:19:30:09 - 00:19:34:07

Wilk Wilkinson

That's right. No, that's absolutely right. And,

00:19:34:07 - 00:19:37:05

Wilk Wilkinson

I love that the building centric approach because,

00:19:37:05 - 00:19:41:12

Wilk Wilkinson

it's going back to what you said, you know, trying to blame other people,

00:19:41:12 - 00:19:42:06

Wilk Wilkinson

right? I mean, it's

00:19:42:06 - 00:19:44:02

Wilk Wilkinson

easy to point the finger at,

00:19:44:02 - 00:19:47:04

Wilk Wilkinson

you know. Well, is it the teacher? Is it the teachers union?

00:19:47:04 - 00:19:49:09

Wilk Wilkinson

Is it the administrators within the building?

00:19:49:09 - 00:20:05:23

Wilk Wilkinson

Is it the administrators within the government? It's governing what the building is going to do. You know, all that all that ignores all those other important points and those other important points are often lost in the conversation when they probably play a bigger part,

00:20:05:23 - 00:20:09:08

Wilk Wilkinson

than, you know, and, and the health care, the health care example.

00:20:09:08 - 00:20:15:02

Wilk Wilkinson

Oh, my gosh, is how how important is that when you start thinking about,

00:20:15:02 - 00:20:15:14

Wilk Wilkinson

the,

00:20:15:14 - 00:20:18:02

Wilk Wilkinson

I, you know, the obesity epidemic,

00:20:18:02 - 00:20:25:03

Wilk Wilkinson

that we are facing in this country and how much that affects what does happen,

00:20:25:03 - 00:20:26:04

Wilk Wilkinson

prior how it

00:20:26:04 - 00:20:32:11

Wilk Wilkinson

how it plays a part prior to people getting to the hospital. And then once they're in the hospital and then it's often too late.

00:20:32:11 - 00:20:54:02

Wilk Wilkinson

Right. And so, so again, how important is this root cause problem solving? And why isn't the real conversation happening? And this is where I want to take this full circle, because one of the things that we do so well at Braver Angels, and one of the most important things when we talk about political,

00:20:54:02 - 00:21:03:11

Wilk Wilkinson

or, well, just toxic polarization in general, not even political polarization, just toxic polarization is the importance of conversation.

00:21:03:13 - 00:21:04:19

Wilk Wilkinson

And then,

00:21:04:19 - 00:21:27:19

Wilk Wilkinson

you know, talk a little bit about how structure and the right structure means so much when it comes to those conversations, because we've all seen, I think I mean, I think most people have seen how how ugly things can get when you just toss a bunch of people that disagree and sometimes disagree vehemently on contentious topics, you just toss them together and hope for the best.

00:21:27:21 - 00:21:34:00

Wilk Wilkinson

They'll talk about the importance of conversation. And then more than that, the calm

00:21:34:00 - 00:21:38:20

Wilk Wilkinson

or the importance of structured conversation that we do it, you know, braver angels so. Well.

00:21:38:21 - 00:21:40:11

Dr. Bill Doherty

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's

00:21:40:11 - 00:21:46:18

Dr. Bill Doherty

it's the I call it the container. What's the container? You know, the structure

00:21:46:18 - 00:21:53:19

Dr. Bill Doherty

within which we're going to talk about really important things. Because if you. So let's take all of the controversies about schooling for example.

00:21:53:19 - 00:21:54:17

Dr. Bill Doherty

If it were

00:21:54:17 - 00:21:56:22

Dr. Bill Doherty

parents on the left and the right think that

00:21:56:22 - 00:22:00:14

Dr. Bill Doherty

they share nothing in common, nothing in common, you know,

00:22:00:14 - 00:22:02:23

Dr. Bill Doherty

with, with these people who either woke or haters.

00:22:03:01 - 00:22:07:07

Dr. Bill Doherty

Right, right. And, and and and I've seen this over and over.

00:22:07:07 - 00:22:08:19

Dr. Bill Doherty

If you get,

00:22:08:19 - 00:22:25:20

Dr. Bill Doherty

those parents and every school professionals to together for a structured conversation where you don't start with should that book on trans be in the library, right. But you start with, what do we aspire to for our children's,

00:22:25:20 - 00:22:28:02

Dr. Bill Doherty

education about the world therein?

00:22:28:03 - 00:22:38:01

Dr. Bill Doherty

Okay. I, I've done this wi