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🎙 Episode 270 – From Polarization to Proactive Citizenship: A Conversation with Braver Angels Co-Founder Dr. Bill Doherty
In this special milestone episode—the first officially produced in collaboration with Braver Angels—Wilk Wilkinson sits down with Dr. Bill Doherty, co-founder of Braver Angels, professor at the University of Minnesota, and nationally recognized expert in family therapy and civic healing.
Together, they explore the urgent need for a thick view of citizenship in today’s polarized world. This is not about partisan politics—it’s about restoring a sense of shared responsibility in our communities through intentional dialogue and real problem-solving.
🔍 Key Topics:
âś… The origin story of Braver Angels after the 2016 election
✅ What “thin” vs. “thick” citizenship means and why it matters
âś… How structured conversations can transform toxic divides
âś… Why personal accountability is essential in civic life
âś… How community problems like safety and education require all of us
đź’¬ Memorable Quotes:
“We are responsible collectively for solving problems.”
“Community safety is the work of all of us.”
“Do I want to be part of the solution or the problem?”
🧩 Whether you lean left, right, or somewhere in between, this episode will challenge and inspire you to reclaim your role as a citizen—not just a spectator.
👉 Ready to be part of the solution?
Subscribe to the Derate The Hate podcast and check out BraverAngels.org to join the movement.
The world is a better place if we are better people. That begins with each of us as individuals. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for all you’ve got. Make every day the day that you want it to be!
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Subscribe to us wherever you enjoy your audio or from our site. Please leave us a rating and feedback on Apple podcasts or other platforms. You can share your thoughts or request Wilk for a speaking engagement on our contact page: DerateTheHate.com/Contact
The Derate The Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels — America’s largest grassroots, cross-partisan organization working toward civic renewal and bridging partisan divides. Learn more: BraverAngels.org
Welcome to the Derate The Hate Podcast!
*The views expressed by Wilk, his guest hosts &/or guests on the Derate The Hate podcast are their own and should not be attributed to any organization they may otherwise be affiliated with.
**Transcript is AI generated and may contain errors
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:49:09
Wilk Wilkinson
Welcome back, my friends, for the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by FOG: and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels, America's largest grassroots cross Partizan organization working towards civic renewal.
00:00:49:11 - 00:01:16:15
Wilk Wilkinson
This podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ.
00:01:16:17 - 00:01:39:17
Wilk Wilkinson
Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Share it with a friend and visit BraverAngels.org to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partisan divide.
00:01:40:05 - 00:01:49:00
Wilk Wilkinson
Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it.
00:01:49:00 - 00:02:15:10
Wilk Wilkinson
Welcome to the first official episode of the Derate The Hate podcast, produced in collaboration with Braver Angels. In this landmark conversation, I am honored to be joined by one of the co-founders of Braver Angels, doctor Bill Doherty, renowned family therapist, professor and thought leader in civic renewal. In this episode, we dive into what it really means to be a citizen not just in name, but in action.
00:02:15:12 - 00:02:38:23
Wilk Wilkinson
Bill shares the story behind Braver Angels founding in the wake of the 2016 election, and challenges the thin idea of citizenship that stops at voting and paying taxes. Instead, he introduces the concept of thick citizenship, a way of life rooted in personal responsibility, structured conversations, and collective problem solving.
00:02:38:23 - 00:02:48:20
Wilk Wilkinson
We explore how meaningful engagement and listening to understand, not just respond, can be powerful tools in healing our nation's divides.
00:02:48:21 - 00:02:58:12
Wilk Wilkinson
Friends, if you are ready to stop blaming and start building, this conversation is for you. Let's get into it with my friend, doctor Bill Doherty. Here we go.
00:02:58:12 - 00:03:03:01
Wilk Wilkinson
Doctor Bill Doherty, thank you so much for joining me on the Derate the Hate podcast. Man, you,
00:03:03:01 - 00:03:06:04
Wilk Wilkinson
you've been dodging me for years. And finally I got you on.
00:03:06:06 - 00:03:13:23
Dr. Bill Doherty
It was a moment of weakness. You got me Wilk, and I said yes. Now I'm actually happy to be. I've been waiting for you to ask me, man.
00:03:14:01 - 00:03:22:23
Wilk Wilkinson
I know, and, you know, when I, when you and I were talking the other day, I'm like, how is it that we have not done an episode together? And,
00:03:22:23 - 00:03:25:11
Wilk Wilkinson
right then I knew we had to make it happen because,
00:03:25:11 - 00:03:25:23
Wilk Wilkinson
out of the.
00:03:25:23 - 00:03:29:23
Wilk Wilkinson
I don't know how many conversations you and I have had, Bill, but but,
00:03:29:23 - 00:03:39:05
Wilk Wilkinson
I, I always enjoy our conversations, and now we're finally doing one for the podcast, so I can't tell you how grateful I am for that.
00:03:39:07 - 00:03:40:21
Dr. Bill Doherty
Glad to be with you.
00:03:40:23 - 00:03:42:11
Wilk Wilkinson
So grateful man.
00:03:42:11 - 00:03:43:02
Wilk Wilkinson
So, Bill,
00:03:43:02 - 00:03:49:17
Wilk Wilkinson
first for the listeners, for any anybody who, who is not familiar with you, I mean, which,
00:03:49:17 - 00:03:57:08
Wilk Wilkinson
a lot of the listeners are already familiar with Braver Angels, the work we do at Braver Angels. But those who may not be,
00:03:57:08 - 00:03:58:07
Wilk Wilkinson
familiar.
00:03:58:07 - 00:03:59:19
Wilk Wilkinson
Doctor Bill Doherty is one of
00:03:59:19 - 00:04:03:15
Wilk Wilkinson
the co-founders of the Braver Angels organization.
00:04:03:17 - 00:04:07:05
Wilk Wilkinson
Back in 2016, got together with,
00:04:07:05 - 00:04:10:05
Wilk Wilkinson
David Blankenhorn, David Lapp, and,
00:04:10:05 - 00:04:16:09
Wilk Wilkinson
developed what has become just this incredible organization bridging divides,
00:04:16:09 - 00:04:17:06
Wilk Wilkinson
working towards,
00:04:17:06 - 00:04:38:10
Wilk Wilkinson
depolarization in, in, in so many ways for, for our country. So, so, Bill, let's start off with you telling the listeners where this thing started for you. I mean, I know you're a bridge builder from way back as a as a marriage counselor, but how did you, you know, get together with,
00:04:38:10 - 00:04:38:20
Wilk Wilkinson
with,
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Wilk Wilkinson
David,
00:04:39:09 - 00:04:42:05
Wilk Wilkinson
the Davids, David Lapp and David Blankenhorn,
00:04:42:05 - 00:04:44:21
Wilk Wilkinson
to get this, this thing started.
00:04:44:23 - 00:04:50:07
Dr. Bill Doherty
It's funny you wrote sometimes people say, what was the strategic plan? Okay.
00:04:50:07 - 00:04:54:10
Dr. Bill Doherty
There was no strategic plan. I was sitting at this desk,
00:04:54:10 - 00:05:04:14
Dr. Bill Doherty
a couple of weeks after the 2016 presidential election. I got a phone call from David Blankenhorn, who had a long term colleague and friend lives in New York City. And,
00:05:04:14 - 00:05:16:21
Dr. Bill Doherty
he'd been on the phone with this with another colleague and friend, David Lapp, who lives in South Lebanon, Ohio, talking about that memorable election, which I think was equally shocking to the Trump voters and Hillary Clinton.
00:05:16:21 - 00:05:19:03
Dr. Bill Doherty
But, I mean, you know, it was just like, whoa.
00:05:19:03 - 00:05:26:12
Dr. Bill Doherty
And they were talking about how people were feeling in New York City, where the world was ending. And it was it was a funeral,
00:05:26:12 - 00:05:27:00
Dr. Bill Doherty
and,
00:05:27:00 - 00:05:32:07
Dr. Bill Doherty
and south Lebanon in Ohio, southwest Ohio, it was morning in America. Hope and change. Okay.
00:05:32:07 - 00:05:50:21
Dr. Bill Doherty
And on that call, they decided kind of impulsively and to get ten Hillary Clinton voters and ten Donald Trump voters together for 13 hours over a weekend in early December, a couple weeks later, and in south Lebanon, Ohio, to see if they could talk with each other and not just about each other.
00:05:50:21 - 00:05:58:00
Dr. Bill Doherty
Okay. See if they could find anything in common. And so, David told me that and I said, man, that that is really brave.
00:05:58:00 - 00:06:07:03
Dr. Bill Doherty
And, what were you thinking of doing with them when you got them together? And he kind of hemmed and hawed and said, well, they didn't exactly know that, but they thought maybe I could figure that part out.
00:06:07:05 - 00:06:20:13
Dr. Bill Doherty
Okay. And and I swear, I was hoping I was not free, you know, look at my calendar. Oh, man. I would have been there at the drop of a hat. Right. But I was free. And and the serious thing is, I just felt like,
00:06:20:13 - 00:06:24:23
Dr. Bill Doherty
patriotic duty to try. Okay. We were so divided.
00:06:24:23 - 00:06:36:06
Dr. Bill Doherty
So, so I, you know, brought in everything I knew from couples counseling to working with community groups I've been doing for some time, put together the program, facilitate.
00:06:36:08 - 00:06:38:16
Dr. Bill Doherty
And it was a powerful experience. And,
00:06:38:16 - 00:06:52:19
Dr. Bill Doherty
but I thought it would be a one off, you know, just ask me what I did back then. But we kept going, and the group wanted a reunion. Cash and another frequent flier ticket flew back to South Lebanon, and we just decided to keep going. So that's how it got started.
00:06:52:21 - 00:06:58:04
Wilk Wilkinson
That's so incredible. And and the work that's been done with this organization.
00:06:58:04 - 00:06:58:18
Wilk Wilkinson
Bill,
00:06:58:18 - 00:07:01:06
Wilk Wilkinson
over the last, you know, nine,
00:07:01:06 - 00:07:07:11
Wilk Wilkinson
nine plus years going on ten years now has has just been nothing short of amazing,
00:07:07:11 - 00:07:09:20
Wilk Wilkinson
becoming the, the the nation's,
00:07:09:20 - 00:07:12:16
Wilk Wilkinson
largest grassroots organization,
00:07:12:16 - 00:07:14:14
Wilk Wilkinson
working towards, bridge building,
00:07:14:14 - 00:07:16:01
Wilk Wilkinson
bridging the divide.
00:07:16:01 - 00:07:17:13
Wilk Wilkinson
You know, political,
00:07:17:13 - 00:07:28:20
Wilk Wilkinson
this toxic polarization thing has toxic polarization in itself, has become this, this ugly little leviathan that that just needs,
00:07:28:20 - 00:07:33:22
Wilk Wilkinson
needs an organization like this to meet the moment.
00:07:33:22 - 00:07:36:03
Wilk Wilkinson
Because if it doesn't,
00:07:36:03 - 00:07:46:17
Wilk Wilkinson
in my opinion, which is why I'm so passionate about doing this work, if it doesn't, I fear for what's going to happen to the country. And so. So, yeah,
00:07:46:17 - 00:07:47:13
Wilk Wilkinson
those fateful,
00:07:47:13 - 00:07:55:23
Wilk Wilkinson
meetings back in, in 2016 that turned into this thing that that now you and I are both so passionate about
00:07:55:23 - 00:07:58:09
Wilk Wilkinson
is just a gift, in my opinion, from God,
00:07:58:09 - 00:08:12:12
Wilk Wilkinson
because we we have to do I mean, it's it's one of these things now that it it's used a duty to country kind of thing, you know, this is what needs to be done to, to make us whole again because we're
00:08:12:15 - 00:08:31:22
Wilk Wilkinson
we're definitely broken. We're hurting. So so with that said, let's let's kind of take it to where we are today and a conversation that you and I were having recently about the importance of citizenship. And, and I know one of the things that we're doing at Braver Angels is,
00:08:31:22 - 00:08:34:23
Wilk Wilkinson
we're talking a lot about citizen led solutions now.
00:08:35:01 - 00:08:45:08
Wilk Wilkinson
And, and a lot of people, I think a lot of people Bill, have forgotten what citizenship is and what it means to be a citizen. And,
00:08:45:19 - 00:08:55:15
Wilk Wilkinson
how effective citizen engagement can really play a part in rebuilding what has become broken through this toxic polarization thing. So let's,
00:08:55:15 - 00:08:56:22
Wilk Wilkinson
let's start there,
00:08:56:22 - 00:08:59:11
Wilk Wilkinson
with the next part of this conversation and.
00:08:59:12 - 00:09:07:17
Wilk Wilkinson
Yeah. And you tell me what you think citizenship is and and what effective citizen leadership is.
00:09:07:19 - 00:09:11:00
Dr. Bill Doherty
Yeah. Well, the idea of the citizen has gotten kind of,
00:09:11:00 - 00:09:12:06
Dr. Bill Doherty
watered down.
00:09:12:06 - 00:09:12:20
Dr. Bill Doherty
To,
00:09:12:20 - 00:09:29:13
Dr. Bill Doherty
the sort of civics thing, you know, you are you a legal, you know, citizen born here or naturalized citizen or you not, you know, and, and sort of the narrow definition and, and observes and, and then the voting, you know, voting becomes, you know, what you do as a citizen,
00:09:29:13 - 00:09:31:12
Dr. Bill Doherty
and, you know, pay your taxes or whatever.
00:09:31:12 - 00:09:35:15
Dr. Bill Doherty
And that's a very thin definition of a citizen. Right.
00:09:35:15 - 00:09:41:06
Dr. Bill Doherty
And, and one of the problems with that, it really suggests that the problems we have,
00:09:41:06 - 00:09:52:12
Dr. Bill Doherty
are going to have to be solved by government, by professionals, by somebody else, because we just we just vote on the people who are going to fix us. Okay. I see how that's worked out right.
00:09:52:14 - 00:09:53:15
Dr. Bill Doherty
And so,
00:09:53:15 - 00:09:59:16
Dr. Bill Doherty
so a thick view of, of citizenship is, is the we the people,
00:09:59:16 - 00:10:01:03
Dr. Bill Doherty
are responsible
00:10:01:03 - 00:10:22:09
Dr. Bill Doherty
collectively for identifying our priorities, solving problems, finding ways to, you know, to to have a life together that we are responsible for. So, you know, at the same time as I help Braver Angels get started, I started a project that's also been going on for eight years,
00:10:22:09 - 00:10:25:00
Dr. Bill Doherty
Police and Black Men project in Minneapolis.
00:10:25:02 - 00:10:25:23
Dr. Bill Doherty
A group of of,
00:10:25:23 - 00:10:26:15
Dr. Bill Doherty
of eight,
00:10:26:15 - 00:10:38:18
Dr. Bill Doherty
officers, eight black men from the community. And what we came to is the community safety is the work of all of us is the work of citizens and,
00:10:38:18 - 00:10:53:17
Dr. Bill Doherty
of citizen officers, if you will. Everybody can't you can't hand over to the problems of crime and the and the pursuit of safety to professionals and expect them to solve it.
00:10:53:21 - 00:11:05:15
Dr. Bill Doherty
It has to be all of us together. That's right. It's the same way with schools, health care. Everything is the work of we the people that that's the robust idea of citizen. I love it.
00:11:05:17 - 00:11:08:04
Wilk Wilkinson
I love it and and calling it, you know,
00:11:08:04 - 00:11:11:21
Wilk Wilkinson
the thick view of citizenship versus the thin view of citizenship.
00:11:11:21 - 00:11:18:18
Wilk Wilkinson
I mean, the thin view in my mind, I'm thinking, okay, just the absolute bare minimum. Right? Well, I pay my taxes, I go out and vote,
00:11:18:18 - 00:11:27:03
Wilk Wilkinson
you know that doing the bare minimum, well, as you said it, look what it's gotten us, right.
00:11:27:08 - 00:11:44:02
Wilk Wilkinson
I mean, they expecting politicians to to come in with some kind of a cape and be our savior just is not, in my opinion, my personal view and my personal life experience. That's not going to get it done. As you've heard me say before,
00:11:44:02 - 00:11:47:07
Wilk Wilkinson
unfortunately, far too often those who represent us,
00:11:47:07 - 00:11:50:06
Wilk Wilkinson
are just far too often not the best of us.
00:11:50:08 - 00:12:04:21
Wilk Wilkinson
And and that's what we get from this thin view of citizenship. Yeah. People not actively engaging in what it means to actually look at what the problems are and how do we best or most effectively,
00:12:04:21 - 00:12:10:00
Wilk Wilkinson
address those problems. And that really starts with each of us, each of us and we the people.
00:12:10:02 - 00:12:16:14
Dr. Bill Doherty
Yeah. And so one of the things that happens is the more politicians are more liberal on the left,
00:12:16:14 - 00:12:34:01
Dr. Bill Doherty
they want they will promise that government will do more and solve our problems. Okay. Politicians on the right say, well, well, we'll make sure you don't pay too many taxes and we'll deregulate. Get the government off your back. But both of them have a thin view of citizenship.
00:12:34:03 - 00:12:37:16
Dr. Bill Doherty
Okay. All right. So some on the right, it's like,
00:12:37:16 - 00:12:43:00
Dr. Bill Doherty
minimize government. But then what? Then what? Okay. Then what happens after that?
00:12:43:00 - 00:12:54:20
Dr. Bill Doherty
And of course, people on the left, you know, it's what's called the vending machine approach to, you know, test citizenship. You know, you know, you pay your tax and you get stuff back. Okay.
00:12:54:20 - 00:12:56:04
Dr. Bill Doherty
And of course, there's a place for that.
00:12:56:04 - 00:13:03:15
Dr. Bill Doherty
We need our, you know, get Social Security and other things. But but I'm saying that our political leaders left, right and center,
00:13:03:15 - 00:13:11:06
Dr. Bill Doherty
have a thin view of citizenship. So, you know, I'm old enough to remember when John F Kennedy gave his,
00:13:11:06 - 00:13:16:14
Dr. Bill Doherty
inaugural address and he said memorably, ask not what your country can do for you.
00:13:16:14 - 00:13:28:04
Dr. Bill Doherty
Ask what you can do for your country. And we were inspired by that. Okay. Anybody who said that now and politician, unfortunately, would be laughed at.
00:13:28:05 - 00:13:36:14
Wilk Wilkinson
That's right, that's right. No. And unfortunately that idea of ask what you can do for your country,
00:13:36:14 - 00:13:51:05
Wilk Wilkinson
people, people have lost sight of that. And you're right, they'd probably be laughed off the stage. Right. Because because people are like, no, I don't have to do anything. I'm just here, you know, it's up to you guys to, to to solve my problems.
00:13:51:05 - 00:13:59:06
Wilk Wilkinson
And, and you know, this is, this is another thing that that I think people have lost sight of and I see it quite often is,
00:13:59:06 - 00:14:13:02
Wilk Wilkinson
those who believe that government is either the cause of or the solution to all of your problems have a, have a very they need a paradigm shift is what they mean because neither is true.
00:14:13:04 - 00:14:33:05
Dr. Bill Doherty
Neither is. Now, I'm glad you said that, because it's the sort of the the the mistake of the left to think the government is the solution, but it's a, it's the mistake of the right to say the government is the problem. And so if I go back to the policing thing paradigm, one is that the problem is bad policing.
00:14:33:10 - 00:14:55:23
Dr. Bill Doherty
If we only cleaned up the police department, then, you know, our problems would be solved, you know. Well, no, you know, obviously policing needs to, you know, reform and keep changing as all institutions do. But the the second, second paradigm is while the problem is that, people in the, you know, low income communities, commit too many crimes and they got a, you know, raise your kids better.
00:14:56:04 - 00:14:57:16
Dr. Bill Doherty
Yeah. Okay.
00:14:57:16 - 00:15:05:11
Dr. Bill Doherty
But but, it takes it sort of points the finger. Somebody else, somebody else other than all of us,
00:15:05:11 - 00:15:08:08
Dr. Bill Doherty
has to be responsible for solving the problem.
00:15:08:10 - 00:15:12:12
Wilk Wilkinson
Right. And and I think this is, this goes to the point where,
00:15:12:12 - 00:15:32:16
Wilk Wilkinson
people have lost sight of the fact that the community is is a is a joint effort, right? I mean, we we are human beings, are communal figures. We we are people that that need other people to survive. I mean, that's that's the way that, this thing has worked for so long.
00:15:32:18 - 00:15:34:03
Wilk Wilkinson
What I fear now,
00:15:34:03 - 00:15:39:05
Wilk Wilkinson
Bill, is far too often either you get people,
00:15:39:05 - 00:15:55:06
Wilk Wilkinson
on on, say, my side of the political spectrum that are, you know, maybe to that extreme on that side that think, oh, well, no, we don't need anybody. We just need ourselves. And you can't tell me what to do. And I I've got no responsibility to anybody but myself.
00:15:55:08 - 00:15:57:23
Wilk Wilkinson
And then you've got people on the other side that, that,
00:15:57:23 - 00:16:18:07
Wilk Wilkinson
of the political spectrum that are like, well, it's all about community. And community takes precedence over the citizen, over the individual. So what we're going to do that all the while ignoring the fact that we can't even come to a common solution on what the root cause of most of these problems are.
00:16:18:09 - 00:16:51:02
Wilk Wilkinson
Often, again, politicians will will pretend to, in my opinion, have the answer to to some thing, but never fully define what the root cause of that thing is. There's no real root cause problem solving taking place. So then what happens is the whole solution, or we start solving for problems that aren't problems in every area, and it just creates more problems.
00:16:51:03 - 00:17:08:22
Wilk Wilkinson
Talk to me about the importance of ineffective communities and as, again, effective citizenship, talk to me about how important actual root cause problem solving is before we pretend to solve problems that most people haven't even defined.
00:17:09:00 - 00:17:11:09
Dr. Bill Doherty
Yeah, yeah. Well,
00:17:11:09 - 00:17:11:22
Dr. Bill Doherty
let's take
00:17:11:22 - 00:17:16:05
Dr. Bill Doherty
public education. Let's take the fact that our kids are,
00:17:16:05 - 00:17:21:06
Dr. Bill Doherty
falling behind, you know, just, you know, international comparisons.
00:17:21:06 - 00:17:23:17
Dr. Bill Doherty
You know, we're just we're not doing that. Well,
00:17:23:17 - 00:17:38:15
Dr. Bill Doherty
and so the root cause thing is hard to to put your finger on, you know, why are we falling behind? But it seems that what we do is we we decide that,
00:17:38:15 - 00:17:43:00
Dr. Bill Doherty
we're going to, we're going to solve it by,
00:17:43:00 - 00:17:45:21
Dr. Bill Doherty
putting professionals onto this.
00:17:45:23 - 00:17:53:20
Dr. Bill Doherty
Okay. So I want to talk about professionals, not only government. Okay. So you teachers schools. Okay. And then what we do is we debate,
00:17:53:20 - 00:18:14:05
Dr. Bill Doherty
public education, charter schools, funding for private education. And we assume the assumption there is that the problem and the solution is all in those buildings. Okay. Yeah. And in the schools. Okay. I call a building centric approach to defining the problem and the solution.
00:18:14:07 - 00:18:15:14
Dr. Bill Doherty
It's like in health care,
00:18:15:14 - 00:18:34:18
Dr. Bill Doherty
it's all about what happens in the building where, as we know, in health care that, you know, 85% or so of of of work is into maintaining health is what we do at home in our communities. Okay? Right. So, so with education is the same thing. We know from, you know, modern studies that,
00:18:34:18 - 00:18:43:14
Dr. Bill Doherty
they proportion of kids aptitude for learning occurs before they hit the, the public school system.
00:18:43:16 - 00:18:55:01
Dr. Bill Doherty
Okay. It's you know, from infancy on, we know that the kids whose parents talk to them and read to them and sing to them and blah, blah, blah, and those kids get this brain stimulation. Okay.
00:18:55:01 - 00:19:02:20
Dr. Bill Doherty
And also how parents combined love and limits with the kids so that the kid feels loved, but also doesn't think that they can't run the world.
00:19:02:22 - 00:19:08:17
Dr. Bill Doherty
All that's happening before they hit the educational system. Okay.
00:19:08:17 - 00:19:24:12
Dr. Bill Doherty
And then we also know that how much parents are involved in their kids education, once they get to school, is another big time. So we're now talking about two thirds or so, right? Just making up that number, talking about the majority of what's going to happen with kids.
00:19:24:12 - 00:19:30:07
Dr. Bill Doherty
Education is not what the teacher does and the what happens in the building.
00:19:30:09 - 00:19:34:07
Wilk Wilkinson
That's right. No, that's absolutely right. And,
00:19:34:07 - 00:19:37:05
Wilk Wilkinson
I love that the building centric approach because,
00:19:37:05 - 00:19:41:12
Wilk Wilkinson
it's going back to what you said, you know, trying to blame other people,
00:19:41:12 - 00:19:42:06
Wilk Wilkinson
right? I mean, it's
00:19:42:06 - 00:19:44:02
Wilk Wilkinson
easy to point the finger at,
00:19:44:02 - 00:19:47:04
Wilk Wilkinson
you know. Well, is it the teacher? Is it the teachers union?
00:19:47:04 - 00:19:49:09
Wilk Wilkinson
Is it the administrators within the building?
00:19:49:09 - 00:20:05:23
Wilk Wilkinson
Is it the administrators within the government? It's governing what the building is going to do. You know, all that all that ignores all those other important points and those other important points are often lost in the conversation when they probably play a bigger part,
00:20:05:23 - 00:20:09:08
Wilk Wilkinson
than, you know, and, and the health care, the health care example.
00:20:09:08 - 00:20:15:02
Wilk Wilkinson
Oh, my gosh, is how how important is that when you start thinking about,
00:20:15:02 - 00:20:15:14
Wilk Wilkinson
the,
00:20:15:14 - 00:20:18:02
Wilk Wilkinson
I, you know, the obesity epidemic,
00:20:18:02 - 00:20:25:03
Wilk Wilkinson
that we are facing in this country and how much that affects what does happen,
00:20:25:03 - 00:20:26:04
Wilk Wilkinson
prior how it
00:20:26:04 - 00:20:32:11
Wilk Wilkinson
how it plays a part prior to people getting to the hospital. And then once they're in the hospital and then it's often too late.
00:20:32:11 - 00:20:54:02
Wilk Wilkinson
Right. And so, so again, how important is this root cause problem solving? And why isn't the real conversation happening? And this is where I want to take this full circle, because one of the things that we do so well at Braver Angels, and one of the most important things when we talk about political,
00:20:54:02 - 00:21:03:11
Wilk Wilkinson
or, well, just toxic polarization in general, not even political polarization, just toxic polarization is the importance of conversation.
00:21:03:13 - 00:21:04:19
Wilk Wilkinson
And then,
00:21:04:19 - 00:21:27:19
Wilk Wilkinson
you know, talk a little bit about how structure and the right structure means so much when it comes to those conversations, because we've all seen, I think I mean, I think most people have seen how how ugly things can get when you just toss a bunch of people that disagree and sometimes disagree vehemently on contentious topics, you just toss them together and hope for the best.
00:21:27:21 - 00:21:34:00
Wilk Wilkinson
They'll talk about the importance of conversation. And then more than that, the calm
00:21:34:00 - 00:21:38:20
Wilk Wilkinson
or the importance of structured conversation that we do it, you know, braver angels so. Well.
00:21:38:21 - 00:21:40:11
Dr. Bill Doherty
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's
00:21:40:11 - 00:21:46:18
Dr. Bill Doherty
it's the I call it the container. What's the container? You know, the structure
00:21:46:18 - 00:21:53:19
Dr. Bill Doherty
within which we're going to talk about really important things. Because if you. So let's take all of the controversies about schooling for example.
00:21:53:19 - 00:21:54:17
Dr. Bill Doherty
If it were
00:21:54:17 - 00:21:56:22
Dr. Bill Doherty
parents on the left and the right think that
00:21:56:22 - 00:22:00:14
Dr. Bill Doherty
they share nothing in common, nothing in common, you know,
00:22:00:14 - 00:22:02:23
Dr. Bill Doherty
with, with these people who either woke or haters.
00:22:03:01 - 00:22:07:07
Dr. Bill Doherty
Right, right. And, and and and I've seen this over and over.
00:22:07:07 - 00:22:08:19
Dr. Bill Doherty
If you get,
00:22:08:19 - 00:22:25:20
Dr. Bill Doherty
those parents and every school professionals to together for a structured conversation where you don't start with should that book on trans be in the library, right. But you start with, what do we aspire to for our children's,
00:22:25:20 - 00:22:28:02
Dr. Bill Doherty
education about the world therein?
00:22:28:03 - 00:22:38:01
Dr. Bill Doherty
Okay. I, I've done this with, with there was a school district in and suburban suburb where the just the school board was divided. Everybody was divided around,
00:22:38:01 - 00:22:46:02
Dr. Bill Doherty
whether the kids were, you know, whether the curriculum was too liberal and woke and, you know, down on conservatism. So what we did was we
00:22:46:02 - 00:22:47:04
Dr. Bill Doherty
had a series of,
00:22:47:04 - 00:22:51:21
Dr. Bill Doherty
well, we met with with parents, leaders on both sides of that who just wanted a truce.
00:22:51:21 - 00:22:54:01
Dr. Bill Doherty
You know, they wanted a truce, right.
00:22:54:01 - 00:23:12:07
Dr. Bill Doherty
And then they invited their friends, and we have these living room conversations in people's houses, and and we didn't start off with that book or there, that curriculum. Right. We started off with what we call fishbowl conversations, where one group is in the middle who are like minded people answering some questions.
00:23:12:07 - 00:23:16:21
Dr. Bill Doherty
The other group is just listening, seeing if they can find anything in common, and then they switch inner
00:23:16:21 - 00:23:18:21
Dr. Bill Doherty
circle. And as I recall that
00:23:18:21 - 00:23:24:22
Dr. Bill Doherty
the first question was, you know, what do you what do you aspire to in terms of your children's,
00:23:24:22 - 00:23:25:20
Dr. Bill Doherty
learning,
00:23:25:20 - 00:23:34:13
Dr. Bill Doherty
about the world that they're in or something like that? Okay. Well, you couldn't it told the difference between the two groups.
00:23:34:13 - 00:23:35:12
Dr. Bill Doherty
Okay. Right.
00:23:35:12 - 00:23:36:13
Dr. Bill Doherty
The, the,
00:23:36:13 - 00:23:38:14
Dr. Bill Doherty
more conservative parents,
00:23:38:14 - 00:23:45:17
Dr. Bill Doherty
one of the kids, you know, that we live in a very diverse world, a global world where there's lots of different viewpoints and opinions, you know, and,
00:23:45:17 - 00:23:49:01
Dr. Bill Doherty
and, and they wanted this to be critical thinkers. Okay.
00:23:49:01 - 00:23:57:14
Dr. Bill Doherty
Well, and the that was a concern of the, the the, the, liberal parents had the same goals.
00:23:57:15 - 00:23:58:09
Dr. Bill Doherty
Okay.
00:23:58:09 - 00:24:14:22
Dr. Bill Doherty
The children understand the world, be comfortable in this sort of very diverse society, be critical thinkers. So they listened to each other, and then we had them in pairs and and the whole group with. What did you learn about how people on the other side see their goals for the children?
00:24:14:22 - 00:24:17:16
Dr. Bill Doherty
And, did you say anything at common?
00:24:17:18 - 00:24:23:01
Dr. Bill Doherty
And they were all surprised because the liberals thought that the conservative parents wanted to,
00:24:23:01 - 00:24:34:00
Dr. Bill Doherty
you know, go back to a another century or something like that, you know, where they didn't understand that we live in a world with lots of different people, lots of different ideas. And
00:24:34:00 - 00:24:43:18
Dr. Bill Doherty
and the conservative parents didn't realize that the liberal parents want their kids not to just be indoctrinated into something they want them to be, you know, think carefully,
00:24:43:18 - 00:24:50:08
Dr. Bill Doherty
about that everything, and accept that part of this diversity is that there are people who are more conservative.
00:24:50:10 - 00:24:59:06
Dr. Bill Doherty
It was all the good people, well, good people with a good structure. The next question was,
00:24:59:06 - 00:25:17:19
Dr. Bill Doherty
and this was a really important question. What what regrets do you have, if any, about how your side has behaved in this controversy? Okay. Good question. Your side. So people they cop to it after finding they have some things in common.
00:25:17:21 - 00:25:23:21
Dr. Bill Doherty
Both sides said, yeah, we got the social media craziest and that stuff happened there.
00:25:23:21 - 00:25:27:11
Dr. Bill Doherty
They, they, they cut to it. And then the last question is
00:25:27:11 - 00:25:29:17
Dr. Bill Doherty
how do we go forward? Okay.
00:25:29:17 - 00:25:32:22
Dr. Bill Doherty
And I swear to you, if with a different,
00:25:32:22 - 00:25:39:11
Dr. Bill Doherty
I process unstructured whatever it the same people would have been at each other's throats, right?
00:25:39:13 - 00:25:41:08
Wilk Wilkinson
That's right. No, that's absolutely right.
00:25:41:08 - 00:25:57:06
Wilk Wilkinson
we've seen it time and time again doing and doing the work that we do it. Braver angels. How this structuring, of these things work, the order that the questions are asked and, and the importance of the way that the, the questions themselves are structured and then,
00:25:57:06 - 00:26:09:09
Wilk Wilkinson
more importantly, one of the things that I love about this work, specifically, Bill, is, is the idea that people come in with a sense of, you know,
00:26:09:09 - 00:26:13:13
Wilk Wilkinson
I mean, I've seen it time and time again where people come in and say, you know, what's the point?
00:26:13:13 - 00:26:15:09
Wilk Wilkinson
Why am I even here?
00:26:15:09 - 00:26:16:00
Wilk Wilkinson
Because,
00:26:16:00 - 00:26:20:03
Wilk Wilkinson
you know, every time I've tried something like this before,
00:26:20:03 - 00:26:37:00
Wilk Wilkinson
I, I'm either just shouted down or or I'm talked to in a way that, you know, I just, I just don't like and and things like that. But then they come away at the end, like, you know, I never, you know, I never really thought of it this way or I, I, I never really understood,
00:26:37:00 - 00:26:46:14
Wilk Wilkinson
what the other side was, was, was thinking or why they felt the way they felt or, or what life experiences led them to believe what they believed.
00:26:46:14 - 00:26:53:15
Wilk Wilkinson
But but now that I took the time to actually listen and understand, and I know that they listened and understood,
00:26:53:15 - 00:26:57:01
Wilk Wilkinson
me and and so that reciprocity there of,
00:26:57:01 - 00:26:59:03
Wilk Wilkinson
of listening and understanding,
00:26:59:03 - 00:27:01:22
Wilk Wilkinson
it's just a beautiful thing.
00:27:02:00 - 00:27:15:15
Dr. Bill Doherty
Yeah, yeah. And it's not just that these people were completely, going to have a great conversation no matter what. So sometimes people who are skeptics of what we do say, well, these are the come by
00:27:15:15 - 00:27:23:05
Dr. Bill Doherty
people they've got. No these are not come by happy. Okay. Because some of them were ringleaders of the social media wars.
00:27:23:05 - 00:27:30:18
Dr. Bill Doherty
Okay. But they wanted to get past it. But if you don't have the right process, they would have gotten triggered. Okay.
00:27:30:18 - 00:27:37:23
Dr. Bill Doherty
And that happens. All of us, you know, get get me triggered and on the defensive and it brings out my worst angels.
00:27:37:23 - 00:27:46:20
Dr. Bill Doherty
And so so it's a combination of people have to be at least willing to, you know, to come in, but they have to follow ground rules, you know, and, and,
00:27:46:20 - 00:27:48:18
Dr. Bill Doherty
and you have to have that kind of moderation.
00:27:48:18 - 00:27:48:23
Dr. Bill Doherty
But
00:27:48:23 - 00:27:50:18
Dr. Bill Doherty
over and over,
00:27:50:18 - 00:28:09:20
Dr. Bill Doherty
when you create that environment, and part of it is the creating a process where you listen without having to respond. Yes. Where you just sort of like, oh, okay. And then the next person talks next expert. And, and you're listening to learn about how these people see the world,
00:28:09:20 - 00:28:13:06
Dr. Bill Doherty
and whether you have anything in common with them.
00:28:13:08 - 00:28:18:23
Dr. Bill Doherty
And you listen with that focus, there's almost always something that you can latch onto.
00:28:19:00 - 00:28:29:11
Wilk Wilkinson
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And I think this, this, you know, this ties right back. And I want to tie it back to again that that concept of thick versus thin,
00:28:29:11 - 00:28:38:06
Wilk Wilkinson
view of citizenship. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, what do you want to be do you want to be part of the solution, or do you want to continue to be part of the problem?
00:28:38:08 - 00:29:02:10
Wilk Wilkinson
Because at the very least, at the very least, we should all be able to look at things in their current state and say, okay, there is a problem. Some people think the problem is bigger than than others, and that's fine. We don't have to agree on what the degree of that problem is, but we we should all be able to at least agree that there's a problem.
00:29:02:11 - 00:29:12:08
Wilk Wilkinson
And then we have to decide for ourselves as individuals. Do I want to be part of the solution, or do I want to be, continue to, to exacerbate and be part of that problem?
00:29:12:08 - 00:29:15:15
Wilk Wilkinson
I think those who really have a strong desire
00:29:15:15 - 00:29:38:07
Wilk Wilkinson
for that thick view of citizenship can at least look at, you know, what we do at Braver Angels and say, do I maybe need to look at what I've been doing up to this point and decide then, you know, do I want to sit down with a bunch of people with the intent to, to listen, to understand, rather than simply respond?
00:29:38:09 - 00:29:41:02
Wilk Wilkinson
Or do I want to continue being part of the problem?
00:29:41:04 - 00:29:59:07
Dr. Bill Doherty
Yeah. And if the problem is the polarized Congress, the polarized Washington. Yeah. But that's out there. But how is it played out in our lives? And what can I do today. And also another part of this work is giving up the illusion that any politician is going to save us.
00:29:59:09 - 00:29:59:23
Wilk Wilkinson
That's right.
00:30:00:01 - 00:30:23:02
Dr. Bill Doherty
No matter how much you like them, nobody is kind of is going to and and the whole thrust of our political system with a thin view of citizenship, we place too much reliance on our favorite politicians. And whether that's. And the more charismatic they are, the more we look for them to solve our problems. And it's a trap.
00:30:23:04 - 00:30:26:18
Dr. Bill Doherty
It's a trap. And then short term, what we say is, well,
00:30:26:18 - 00:30:32:10
Dr. Bill Doherty
if you look for the next election, the next two years or four years, and so my side's going to win.
00:30:32:10 - 00:30:36:13
Dr. Bill Doherty
And meanwhile, the toxic toxicity just increases. So,
00:30:36:13 - 00:30:46:23
Dr. Bill Doherty
so part of fixed citizenship is not over relying on politicians or professionals or the teachers of the doctors.
00:30:46:23 - 00:30:49:23
Dr. Bill Doherty
We have to respect all this risk. That's good. But,
00:30:49:23 - 00:30:53:22
Dr. Bill Doherty
ultimately the big problems are those of all of us. Yeah.
00:30:54:00 - 00:30:55:06
Wilk Wilkinson
No, that's absolutely right.
00:30:55:06 - 00:31:00:19
Wilk Wilkinson
That's absolutely right. We and that's why I talk so much about personal accountability. Personal responsibility.
00:31:00:19 - 00:31:04:11
Wilk Wilkinson
This has been a fantastic conversation. And, Bill,
00:31:04:11 - 00:31:10:20
Wilk Wilkinson
I love the fact that you've brought the concepts of a thick view and thin view,
00:31:10:20 - 00:31:12:04
Wilk Wilkinson
of citizenship,
00:31:12:04 - 00:31:13:22
Wilk Wilkinson
to the listeners,
00:31:13:22 - 00:31:15:13
Wilk Wilkinson
such an important topic.
00:31:15:13 - 00:31:20:12
Wilk Wilkinson
It gives people something to think about. We've talked about some incredible action items and,
00:31:20:12 - 00:31:27:13
Wilk Wilkinson
now it's just people have to decide, do they want to be part of the solution or continue being part of the problem? And I think,
00:31:27:13 - 00:31:31:19
Wilk Wilkinson
I think that thick view of citizenship is looking a lot more appealing. And,
00:31:31:19 - 00:31:34:23
Wilk Wilkinson
people can really, really make a difference in their own lives.
00:31:35:01 - 00:31:39:19
Dr. Bill Doherty
And that's not left to right. That's right. It's not left or right.
00:31:39:21 - 00:31:46:03
Wilk Wilkinson
Not left or right at all. Doctor Bill Doherty, thank you so much, man. This has been an incredible conversation. I,
00:31:46:03 - 00:31:50:05
Wilk Wilkinson
I look forward to so much more of the work that we, we do together. And,
00:31:50:05 - 00:31:52:06
Wilk Wilkinson
many more conversations to come. Thank you.
00:31:52:06 - 00:32:01:15
Dr. Bill Doherty
I'm so glad you finally invited me. Wilk, I mean, practically everybody I know has been on your show. Okay? And I've been waiting for the phone to ring. And finally, thank you.
00:32:01:17 - 00:32:06:13
Wilk Wilkinson
Finally it happened, and I am so grateful for it. All right. Thank you so much. Better.
00:32:06:15 - 00:32:07:10
Dr. Bill Doherty
My pleasure.
00:32:07:10 - 00:32:37:06
Wilk Wilkinson
Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate The Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together, so please take a moment to visit BraverAngels.org and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divides.
00:32:37:08 - 00:33:00:14
Wilk Wilkinson
This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friends, I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
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