Send Wilk a text with your feedback! (incoming msgs only - I can't reply)
Doug Teschner and Beth Malow return to Derate The Hate for a follow-up that feels less like a recap—and more like a gut check on where we actually are right now.
When they first joined back on Episode 266, their book Beyond the Politics of Contempt was still on the horizon. Now it’s out, it’s gaining traction, it’s earned a Literary Titan Award, and it’s reaching audiences across the political spectrum… even in spaces where outrage tends to dominate the conversation.
That alone should tell us something.
Because underneath all the noise, there’s a growing sense that people are tired—not just of each other, but of the constant pull toward conflict.
And with the audiobook dropping this May, that message is about to reach even further.
There’s a narrative out there right now that things are too far gone. That the divide is permanent. That we’ve crossed a line we can’t come back from.
You’ve felt it. A lot of people have.
But here’s where this conversation pushes back:
✅ Most real-world communities are not nearly as divided as they appear online
✅ What rises to the top in media is often the loudest—not the most representative
✅ The “black pill” mindset feeds on a distorted picture of reality
When you step away from the feed… and look at your actual day-to-day life, things often don’t look nearly as broken.
And that gap matters.
Doug brings in a term that cuts through a lot of the confusion—“conflict entrepreneurs,” a phrase popularized by Amanda Ripley. It’s something I often refer to as “outrage entrepreneurs.” Different words… same idea.
These are the people and systems that benefit from keeping us at odds. They understand the game better than most:
👉 If it screams, it streams. 👉 If it’s calm, constructive, and human… it gets ignored.
And the more we engage with that system—click it, share it, react to it—the more we reinforce it.
That dynamic isn’t accidental. It’s built, it’s fed, and it’s working exactly as designed. Once you see it… it’s hard to unsee.
A lot of people feel boxed into a choice that doesn’t actually exist:
Speak up or listen
Stand firm or understand
Be an activist or be a bridge builder
This episode dismantles that idea.
✅ You can hold strong convictions
✅ You can speak clearly about what matters to you
✅ You can still make space to understand someone who disagrees
Not as a compromise—but as a way to become more effective.
Beth shares a story that brings this out of theory and into something real.
A relationship with a Christian conservative friend starts with a conversation about guns… and eventually moves into a discussion about medically appropriate abortion.
No viral moment. No “win.”
Just two people willing to stay in the conversation.
And what came out of it wasn’t agreement—it was something more durable:
✔️ Mutual respect
✔️ Genuine curiosity
✔️ A shift in understanding
That’s the work. And it’s happening more often than we think.
There’s a fear a lot of people carry:
“If I slow down enough to listen… am I losing my edge?”
That concern comes up directly in this conversation.
And the answer is pretty clear:
✅ Listening doesn’t extinguish conviction—it refines it
✅ Understanding the other side strengthens your ability to make your case
✅ Passion becomes more effective when it’s directed, not just expressed
You don’t lose your fire.
You just stop letting it burn everything down around you.
One of the more honest takeaways from Doug:
This work isn’t just about “saving the country.”
It’s about helping people deal with what they’re feeling right now:
✔️ Strained relationships
✔️ Constant tension
✔️ The sense that everything is pulling us apart
And giving them a way forward that doesn’t require them to harden themselves against everyone who thinks differently.
You’ve heard it before, and it shows up clearly again here:
✔️ You cannot hate someone into believing what you believe
But you can:
→ Understand them
→ Challenge them
→ Stand firm in what matters to you
…without losing sight of the fact that the person across from you is still human.
Beyond the Politics of Contempt
📖 Print available now
🎧 Audiobook releasing this May
Substack → togethernow.substack.com
Beth → bethswisdom.com
Doug → growingleadershipllc.com
The world is a better place if we are better people. That begins with each of us as individuals. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for all you’ve got. Make every day the day that you want it to be!
Please follow The Derate The Hate podcast on:
Facebook, Instagram, Twitter(X) , YouTube
Subscribe to us wherever you enjoy your audio or from our site. Please leave us a rating and feedback on Apple podcasts or other platforms. You can share your thoughts or request Wilk for a speaking engagement on our contact page: DerateTheHate.com/Contact
The Derate The Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels — America’s largest grassroots, cross-partisan organization working toward civic renewal and bridging partisan divides. Learn more: BraverAngels.org
Welcome to the Derate The Hate Podcast!
*The views expressed by Wilk, his guest hosts &/or guests on the Derate The Hate podcast are their own and should not be attributed to any organization they may otherwise be affiliated with.
Transcript is AI generated and may contain errors
[00:00:00:00] Wilk Wilkinson: Seems that too often people feel stuck with a choice protest or listen. Push back or build bridges. Doug Teschner and Beth Malow say that's a false choice. And today they're going to tell you why. Welcome back, my friends, for the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels , America's largest grassroots cross. partisan organization working towards civic renewal. This podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ. Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the Hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Share it with a friend and visit BraverAngels.org to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partisan divide. Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it. A while back on episode 266, I had Doug Teschner and Beth Malow on the show. They had a book coming out, a book about content, political division, and what regular people can actually do about it. Well, that book, Beyond the Politics of Contempt, it's been out now for a while. And I wanted to get them back on just to hear how it's landing. Doug is a former New Hampshire state rep and a Peace Corps director. Beth is a neurologist and a Braver Angels facilitator who gave a Ted talk on communicating across disagreement. They've been everywhere promoting this book, including some media spaces that don't exactly lean toward the bridge building side of things. We're covering a lot of ground today the black pill mindset, outrage entrepreneurs, and whether being an activist and a bridge builder are really opposites, or whether that's just the story we're being told. Another great conversation here on DTH. Let's get into it with my friends Doug and Beth. Here we go. All right. Doug Teschner and Beth Malow, thank you so much for joining me here again on the Debate The Hate podcast. It's so wonderful to see both of you again today.
[00:03:21:04] Doug Teschner: It's great to be with you, Wilk.
[00:03:23:05] Beth Malow: Absolutely.
[00:03:25:02] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. I've been excited to to get this catch up session on, on on tape. So to speak. Right. But but, I had you guys on the, on the podcast back in episode 266 of Derate the Hate to talk about the book you had coming out at the time, called Beyond the Politics of Contempt, Practical Steps to Build Positive Relationships and Divided Times. The book has since come out, and, I'm looking forward to hearing more about it, about your experiences, with with promoting the book, the kind of feedback that you guys have been getting. And then we'll just talk more broadly, obviously, about our, our work together as Braver Angels , at the date of this recording. It's we we are just in some, some, some wild times in terms of, civic discourse, political discourse and, and we'll talk a little bit more about that. So, I'll start with, with you, Doug, is the book, what is what has been the response of the book? And what is your reaction to that response?
[00:04:28:00] Doug Teschner: Well, thank you. Wilk, can you know, we've had a lot of interest in the book. I mean, we've sold over a thousand copies. There's been a lot of interest within Braver Angels , of course, but, you know, a lot of interest among the among the public. I think people are hungry for something different. The challenge is how do we connect with them? How do we get them in the door? And this is the same challenge for Braver Angels . You know, there's a there's a quote in, in our, in our book, that happens to be my quote is if it screams, it streams. And if if it's kind, pay no mind. And it's sort of the challenge we have with the book and with Brave Angels is, you know, how do you get people's attention, how do you get it? So people know about it once people know about it, I think they're pretty they're pretty interested in, you know, there's a lot of angst out there. And, and, and I think we're trying to create some, among this politics of fear, this politics of contempt, trying to give people some hope. I think people are really hungry for hope that we can offer to them. And I just think about a recent, event we had with actually the sheriff, Vermont Democrats. We it was snowing. Last Saturday, but 40 people showed up and there was a, you know, a lot of people are really curious and hungry and, and wants or want something better and are worried.
[00:05:54:07] Wilk Wilkinson: Oh for sure. And for the same question, I mean, as, as the, the responses flow in from the book. what is your reaction to to what you've seen so far and in, in the responses to the book that's come out?
[00:06:09:04] Beth Malow: Yes. I have been really uplifted. We have, close to 50 Amazon reviews that have been really kind and supportive and so many people have given us five stars. It's been really nice. And then we also won an award. We won a, literary titan Award, for our book content, which is exciting and have been asked to go to different book festivals and exhibit. And so that's been all fantastic. I will say that one of the things that really uplifts me is reaching out to Braver Angels . So, for example, I'm going to I was chosen to exhibit at a book festival in Tucson, Arizona in March, which is so exciting because everybody who lives in New England has to get out of New England in March. I would think, in a sense, right. It's just like you're waiting and you're waiting for it to be spring. Well, I wrote to the Braver Angels of Tucson and immediately got back. Hey, we want to do an event. We want to bring everybody together to hear about you after your book festival. And we also want to invite other people from the community. We want to invite the League of Women Voters, and we want to invite this group in that clip. And it's so exciting to me to see our book help further the Braver Angels mission, attract new members, help people who are in Braver Angels get rejuvenated. So we really enjoyed that element, and we're also incredibly grateful to Braver Angels for their support. Of our book, in terms of really bringing bringing people out, I will say one more thing. I love New England. I recently moved here from Tennessee. As you know. And, not only is a great working with Doug and the New England Alliances, it's there's a special like we've really have had a lot of interest from both the press here and these local gatherings that we've done. There's, there's a hunger, particularly up here for the civic renewal and the citizen led solutions and the small town government. And what we're trying to figure out now is how do we get that out there throughout the country, in the nation, you know, how do we capture that and and get that? So that's our new challenge.
[00:08:42:05] Wilk Wilkinson: And that is that is the million dollar question, Beth is, is how do we how do we scale that enthusiasm? Because, you know, I have I have conversations with people from all over the country and they talk about all the different, wonderful things that they've got going on in their particular community. And, we, we see that angst, you know, like Doug was talking about, we see it on the news, we see the, the anger and the and the upheavals in, in, in other communities. But I'm not necessarily seeing that in my community, which, which always leads me to, to just say, what we see online, what we see in the news. I mean, to Doug's point, you know, if it screams at streams, what we see online and what we see in the news is not always representative of real life for everybody. the reality is, is, is most of the country, in our individual communities, are not nearly as separated, not nearly as torn as many online would have you believe. And I think that's that's a really important takeaway, whether it's, you know, whether we're talking about Braver Angels or the bridging space more broadly or your book Beyond the the Politics of Contempt, is when we start to think about these things. There are some very ugly things that are going on in the in our, in our country and in the world today. But it's not representative of everything. One thing a term that I've been hearing and I've got to look into a little bit more, but it's just a very dark term. it's something I've been seeing online more and more as, you know, the, the, the black pill effect, the, you know, we've seen red pill, we, we've seen blue pilled, but now there's this thing called black pilled where there's a whole group of people that just say, you know, it's all over, nothing can, you know, it's we're beyond we're we're beyond the possibility of of fixing anything. Everything's too far gone. Let's talk about that a little bit, because I think that mindset is a direct downstream effect of the politics of contempt.
[00:10:52:05] Doug Teschner: You know, we know from our racial workshops that if you get people in the room that they find out they have a lot more common ground. Then then then then they they believed going into it. And, and, you know, there are people who are just trying to push us apart, the conflict entrepreneurs who are in there and they're not doing it for the country. They're doing it to for their own power and their own benefit. And, you know, we have a graphic in the book. We try to make the book really sort of easy to read and user friendly. And we have some of these, and we have some graphics in the graphic that we came up with for the, for the, conflict entrepreneur is a, is a crocodile trying to eat the American flag. And this is this is what it's all about. I mean, we kind of people got to we all got to step back and say, wait a minute, we're all being manipulated here, and I, I don't I put myself in the same category. All all me. It made me, I mean, mentally less than other people. But you know, we've got to really wait a minute. We have a lot of common ground as Americans. Who are we as Americans? What's important to our American values? And when you really, you know, we we need to get past this sort of grievance politics. That's being exploited. Now, I heard that term, and I think it really applies the idea that the US versus them, that we can't talk to them. And if because because they're so evil, but if we can't talk to them, we're not going to know who they are and what they believe and whether we have anything in common. So, yeah, it's a dark time in our country, but we have to approach it from a point of view. What can we do about it? We we try to bring a little hope to the world and in our book. And it's a very practical steps. But what people can do.
[00:12:41:19] Wilk Wilkinson: Oh that's right. And, and that's, talk to me and then about, I mean, I know some of the, you guys have, have done, kind of a virtual book tour in many senses. You've been on a number of different podcasts and, and done some great interviews with some higher profile people. And some of those people do tend to, lean closer towards that, you know, you know, we can't coexist with these people. What what kind of response have you gotten from some of those, in, in the media that that just think, okay, maybe we are too far gone. Maybe we're too far apart. Maybe the sides, in in that battle of us versus them are too far apart. And bridging that divide is, is going to be too much of an undertaking. What kind of what kind of things that are you hearing when you guys are doing those those types of interviews?
[00:13:37:07] Beth Malow: Well, we've actually been surprised. So for example, we we were interviewed by two high profile conservatives. One is Alex Marlow, the editor in chief of Breitbart News. The other was Michelle Tafoya, who's a conservative podcast host. And and and what was interesting about both of those is they seem to have the same take that you do on the conflict entrepreneurs and the fact that we're all being pushed apart. And I thought that was wonderful to hear. I did push back a little bit on Alex Marlow because he asked me, you know, do you think that, liberals are, more closed minded than conservatives? And I said, well, it's really on both sides. Number one, you know, I think everybody is being stirred up, including, you know, foreign powers and others who are trying to push us apart as Americans. Like I saw there was even a fake AI ICE video that is out there now. Circular. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, there's a lot of that. And then, you also, you know, I, I feel like it's also really important not to put people in boxes, right? You know, there are some people who voted for Trump who like his policies but feel that he could be a little bit less divisive. Right. Or a little. Yeah. And then there are some liberals who could see, I mean, I, I like to see myself as one of them who feel that, you know, we need to take more of an MLK Jr approach, right? When we protest. Protesting is good. I think protesting can be combined with bridge building and, listening to people who are different than us. And still, you know what what we're hearing from our new CEO, Marie Giles, is the idea of courageous citizenship. You, you listen to others, you also speak what you believe. So you you protest. What upsets you? You want to leave space to understand where other people are coming from who disagree with you. And and it's a great strategy. I think, because if anything, it hones your own arguments. And sometimes you learn something.
[00:15:59:06] Wilk Wilkinson: That, oh, it.
[00:16:00:13] Beth Malow: Might have passed.
[00:16:02:04] Wilk Wilkinson: It. Absolutely. I mean, you know, going to the idea of protesting and I will say this, Beth and Doug, that that I truly believe that protesting, is, is part of the DNA of who we are as Americans. I mean, that that's it's it's been one of those things that has been part of our, American story from the from the very beginning. It's it's totally ingrained in the American experiment as well as well. It should be, where I do have big problems is, when those protests become, become violent, become destructive. I mean, the destruction of property or or when the, you know, when, when protests become, more, you know, when you start to inhibit, the government of government officials ability to do something else. Now, we've entered new territory. Now, that's not protest, that's crime. When we start to damage the property of another, whether it be, that or whether it be a business or an individual, when you start to to damage other people's property. Now we're into a different place. We're no longer protesting. It's a crime. You brought up, you know, Alex Marlow on on Breitbart. His has always been one who who you know, he he pushes the line, sometimes in terms of, that, that kind of outrage entrepreneur and, and, that, that kind of kind of media strategy and, and so does Matt Michel to, to for you to, to, to a certain extent, there's always going to be those people out there. But the biggest thing to understand is, you know, when we are having these conversations and Doug, I'll have you weigh in on this, a little bit heavier when we're having those conversations, even the smartest and brightest out there in our media suffer from their own kind of affective polarization, right? They, I do, you know, as a conservative within the bridging space, I, I, I suffer from it, just like others do. It's something that I have to constantly keep myself in check on. And, and so when Alex Marlow asked that question about. But don't you think it comes, you know, don't you think that comes a little bit more from the left? I'm not really, it's it's very it. When you start to open your mind to that broader idea that this isn't a one sided thing, that affective polarization gets everybody dug in on that for me, would you?
[00:18:35:23] Doug Teschner: Well, I think that's a key. That's the key to holding us versus them mentality is to embrace the the fact that they're evil, that they're stupid. And then when we talk about effective polarization, the, you know, polarization is fine when it comes to how we have different points of view. And in brain ranges, we encourage people to have a different points of view. And in fact, in our politics, it's essential that we have different points of view and that people are free to express their points of view. The problem becomes when when we talk about this, effective polarization becomes, if you don't agree with me, you're evil, you're stupid, you're not patriotic. And when we get we go. Now it's a rabbit hole, a very dangerous rabbit hole. And I hear it. I hear it even from family members on the left. And we're not going to talk to those people. We're not going. We're not. We're not going to when we have nothing to say. And but of course, where's the end goal in this? You know, where where where are we going? You know, in in marriage counseling. I mean, you know, Bill Doherty is he has a background in marriage counseling and a lot of our a lot of our, techniques and renewals are built around the marriage counseling ideas. And there's a famous, well known couple that Gottman showed who, who, who do marriage counseling, have talked about their word, that word contempt when contempt, when you reach a point of contempt, it's sort of a it becomes sort of a point where maybe it's not possible to, to hold the marriage together again. But we don't have that luxury when it comes to a country where we do not have the luxury of a divorce. And, and, I think I think as people, you know, as we wrap ourselves around these conversations with folks, you know, we have to sort of get back to, well, what what's our goal? What's our goal? To not talk to those people on the other side. We want a civil war. Is that something where we want to divide the country? This is very dangerous. And and and and and and and and when, when we're so self-righteous, you know, we talk about in our book and about, you know, we talk about treating people with dignity and respect. They're sort of essential, essential elements. But we we try. But how do you do that? And and you do that by good listening skills which have kind of gone, you know, gone out. We have the Stephen Covey, the famous and the well known author of the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, talks about listening to, understand and not to respond. And, and and gosh, we need that more. But another aspect to add to it is humility. You know, I don't we don't see we seem to have lost humility. As a, as sort of as an important quality of who we are as people. So in our book, we talk a lot about values. We talked a lot about, you know, looking within yourself, it's going to start within yourself and living up to who who are you and what you believe and how you treat others. Yeah.
[00:21:43:18] Wilk Wilkinson: It absolutely. when we when we think about Stephen Covey and the seek first to understand, it's one of these things that is, is so incredibly important. You know, when we're having conversations and it really it does start with, with strong dialog in, in, in, in going back to something that Beth said earlier about the next chapter of Brave Angels and, and Mary Giles and, and, you know, the courageous citizenship and what courageous citizenship really is. Creative citizenship is really about reclaiming our personal agency and having the courage to speak, but also having the courage to listen and to listen with intention to those people that we we know we're going to disagree with that content that you talk about, Doug, often comes out of a misperception of of what the other side, believes. Who? The other side. You know, other side. And quote is, we we don't that affective polarization thing that we, we started, you know, we kind of keyed on there is, is based quite often in, in misperceptions of the other side. We, we start to lose sight of our, points of commonality. But when we start to listen with intention, faith. And I'm going to have your key in on this when we start to listen with intention to those that we disagree with, we start to realize how much we actually have in common. And, just just dive into that a bit more for me because it is so important to have the courage to listen to dispel those misinterpretations we have of the other side.
[00:23:34:02] Beth Malow: Yeah. Well, I'll I'll give you a story. I mean, I think fear also is a big motivator. And one of the things I've done since the book has come out is to be very careful not to say, oh, I'm an open minded liberal. I, I have friends who voted for Trump, whatever. I mean, I'm, I'm happy I do, but I'm also trying to be as open minded to my friends who are progressives, who are, you know, think the world is on fire and what should they do? Right. And, how can we possibly bridge built when the world is on fire? So the story I want to share briefly is, a friend of mine, an older man, Christian conservative and in Nashville. And we actually, I actually believe bonding with somebody first is Yeats, whether it be singing in a chorus, playing on a sports team, in this case, my husband bought a gun. Right? And, when my Christian conservative older now friend heard about this, he said, well, we need to go out to breakfast and I need to tell you all of our guns and what gun you can buy as a woman, and you can shoot the gun through this tin purse. And it was a little ridiculous, and I. I want. Yeah. Okay. And I think what happened, he came across this MAGA hat. I'm not a red hat like Doug is wearing. But, you know, the Make America great a hat. And I mean, it's fine. I was like, let's let's have breakfast and let's chat. And I remember seeing things right. I didn't actually buy the pink purse, but I learned a few things. And then I sent him, hey, let's go to lunch. I'm going to take you to lunch. Let's talk about medically appropriate abortions, because I'm a I'm a doctor. And I had some things I wanted to share. And and he agreed. And we got to lunch and, and, you know, the first thing I taught him was that there are reasons that pregnancies can go wrong and, and topics and everything. And, and it's not that every woman who is pregnant is 13 years old, right. And out of where I thought there's there's a lot of reasons for these medically appropriate abortions. At the end of the line, she was like, you know, you made some really good points. We need to think about ways that we can have medical panels or other things. And I was really blown away. I first of all, I enjoyed it. Yeah. And second of all, I opened myself up to a conversation and or a series of conversations. And I really believe that if we can get people to realize as we talked about earlier, earlier, that most of us, you don't have a lot in common. And just like, not be afraid and just have the courage to have that conversation. And and you can you can, speak your mind with the courageous citizenship. You can speak your mind and still listen to other people and give them space. And I feel like that's the message that we really need to push forward. And I applaud and I see how on on the courageous citizenship now we just have to get it out there. Yeah.
[00:26:33:02] Wilk Wilkinson: Well, the whole thing about the Braver Angel’s way is one of the first things that we talk about in the Braver Angels way is our ability to come together, speak freely, fully, and without fear. And and in order to do that, we often have to to listen without, without an immense amount of fear as well. That's why I always talk about listening with intention. Comes with a certain degree of courage, right? Because, it's not always comfortable, as in your example, their best. It's not always comfortable to sit down and listen to things that that may or may not trigger you. You may know that that this particular thing, you know, for, for a conservative, listening to somebody talk about abortion, may be a very triggering event that takes courage to sit down and listen to that with intention. Same thing for liberals and the gun debate, you know, sitting down and listening to a conservative talk about guns and why we like guns and and things like that. It's a for a lot of people, it's a very triggering event. It takes courage to listen to that. So, Doug, as we round out our time, when you think about what you have, you know, your big takeaways from, your time so far since the book has come out. What what do you think has been your particular biggest surprise, in terms of, of the response? What what is something maybe that you've learned something that you didn't, you know, you know, kind of going to our friend Monica Guzman's. I never thought of it that way kind of thing. What has been your biggest surprise since the book has come out?
[00:28:11:19] Doug Teschner: Well, that's a good question. And, you know, when we started the book, we were thinking about you sort of join us and help us save the country. But as I think we and we got the late, so we really started listening to people. We developed other ideas within the book and, and since, since we've been talking to people, I think, I think a great opportunity for Braver Angels is to talk about, talk more about how can we help you, you know, as opposed to how have you come help us save the country. And so we talk about relationships a lot, you know, and how do you how do you manage difficult relationships? And then we get into how do you, how do you, you deal with your own mental health? There was a lot of really angst out there. Here's me about how about, you know, people are really upset and on both sides, and and, you know, what can you do? Do the little things that can make you feel better? I think that we've tried to really focus more on that then more helping people with their mental health. And of course, you know, we also have citizen led solutions, which which, you know, what can we do in our communities? But one of the things that really has compelled us, and lately in our time is, is this integration of of, of, of activism and bridge building. I think I might have told you before that in the early days, when we were before we actually wrote the book, we were approached by a group called The Rise for freedom that was doing the No Kings type demonstrations, and they asked us to come on and talk to how do you how do you how do you talk to people you disagree with? And I was a little skeptical of this group, but I was I was all in and, you know, we had 700 people on the zoom call, which was, you know, which we had 700 people on some of our free range of calls. But, I mean, I think I think people were wrong. I think people are hungry. And I think we need to do a better job of saying, yes, be a protester. But if you want, but do it in a way that's respectful and other people, and that might actually bring people, you know, how do you bring people maybe to your side if you want to protest? So shouldn't that be a goal? Isn't that to show a better way? Well, and, and and I think that this is a bigger, a bigger challenge for us is how do we how do we how do I how can people express their views but do it with respect, with dignity, with humility and also vulnerability is not a word we used today, but we've talked about it. The idea that we have to put ourselves out there and and be a little vulnerable and, and bring it, make sure where we're living, our values.
[00:31:03:22] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. And going to your point about the protest and then I'm going to ask the question, same question A of Beth. But one of the things that I, I say quite often and it, it goes to the point that you just made, Doug, is, is when it comes to protesting. If, if your goal you know, we talk a lot about desired outcomes and Braver Angels . Right? When we have a, we have a meeting or even when I was in the corporate world, desired outcomes is a big thing. If your desired outcome is just to cause chaos, keep doing it that ugly way. But the reality is, is, is you cannot hate somebody into believing what you believe. You cannot hate somebody into having your worldview. You know, Beth, brought up MLK earlier. And, the reality is, is, is, MLK, was was one of his greatest quotes is hate cannot drive a hate. Only love can do that. These protests that are that are all about chaos, calamity and just outrage. Those do not move anybody to your side. Best as we as we again, are finishing up our time here. What is your biggest in terms of a surprise? What is something that you really hadn't thought of but has come as a surprise to you, since the book has come out?
[00:32:20:13] Beth Malow: Yeah, I think it's a pragmatic, moderate liberal. I really was afraid that progressives would hate me. This and not be interested in the book. And and I've seen the opposite. And I just want to bring to people's attention. We do have a Substack. It's nice. Newsletter. And you can subscribe for free. It's, together across differences and it's it's together now that substack.com and I, I bring that up to say that we've continued to explore these themes in essays and, you know, brief little essays and then even video clips. And the thing that was the most impactful for me was when I asked Monica Grossman of, of our people, you mentioned her a moment ago to join me, and she taught me so much. And I want to say, anybody who wants to go to our Substack, it's called do I Have to be a do? I have to be both an activist and a bridge builder? And it's very provocative because the answer is no. If, if, if being an activist, cause, you know, being a bridge builder, cause you you don't have to do both, you don't have to bridge build and it common ground and, and protest. But, you know, I actually think the two go together really nicely. And the most impactful thing that Monica taught me was we were talking about the fire of activists and how it created our country. Right. And it's so powerful. But the downside of the fire, you know, people, it can be destructive as you say, and people who say, I I'm afraid. I'm almost like afraid my fire. I'm afraid that my passion is going to be ignited or I'm sorry, I guess, blown out or whatever, you know, suppressed. If I bridge the world and I listen to others and and instead Monica said very brilliantly, that's how you put the fire out, you know, you could still be passionate, but the destructive parts of the fire, which we've all seen.
[00:34:30:02] Wilk Wilkinson: Exactly.
[00:34:30:23] Beth Malow: Can be, can be moderated if you can learn to talk to other people. So I think I think it absolutely did. But I think you can protest and you can bridge build. And that's the message I'd love to see Braver Angels get out to people is, yes, you can protest if that's your calling, but having your toolkit be ability to do some listening to because it will just make your argument stronger and you'll get a broader text and you'll be able to bring more people. Yeah, that's my biggest aside.
[00:35:06:11] Wilk Wilkinson: That's great. And yes, I agree, you can absolutely be an activist and a bridge builder. And and bridge building is not just to re instill this in so many people who get it wrong. Bridge building is not about giving up your strongly held convictions. Bridge building is not about not having an opinion about a particular hot button issue. Bridge building is about doing it the right way. So, Beth Malow, Doug Teschner, always a pleasure to see both of you. And, yeah, the book again, is beyond the politics of contempt, practical steps to build positive relationships and divided times, that, all that information and all the things that we've talked about can be found in the show notes. And, very grateful to both of you. Thank you so much.
[00:35:54:03] Doug Teschner: Thank you.
[00:35:59:22] Wilk Wilkinson: Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate the Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together, so please take a moment to visit BraverAngels.org and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divides. This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friends, I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
Comments & Upvotes