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Monica Harris joins Wilk in person for a conversation that starts with education—but doesn’t stay there for long. At the center is Many Stories, One Nation—FAIR’s high school social studies curriculum. What begins as a question about how this differs from traditional ethnic studies quickly opens into something deeper: how we teach history, how we frame identity, and what we’re actually preparing young people to walk into. If the goal is to equip the next generation for a complicated and often divided world, the way we tell these stories matters.
The discussion begins with the curriculum itself—nine chronological units spanning from colonial America to the present, covering a wide range of ethnic and immigrant experiences. Not isolated or siloed, but told in parallel. Monica makes the case that when these stories are presented alongside one another, it becomes harder to see each other as opponents and easier to recognize shared humanity.
From there, the conversation moves into more difficult territory. They unpack the downstream effects of the oppressor/oppressed framework—not just the guilt it can place on some students, but the agency it can quietly strip from others. Monica shares personal perspective here, including her father’s experience with overt discrimination in 1960s Los Angeles, and how differently her own life may have unfolded had she internalized a fixed victim identity.
This isn’t just philosophical—it’s psychological. Wilk and Monica explore how the reticular activating system and confirmation bias shape what we notice, what we expect, and ultimately what we believe is possible. Once a narrative takes hold—especially one rooted in limitation—it tends to reinforce itself, not necessarily because it’s accurate, but because it becomes the lens.
They also introduce the idea of “competing goods”—a framework that helps explain why people on opposite sides of an issue aren’t always enemies. More often, they’re prioritizing different values, which creates a very different starting point for conversation.
If students are only taught to see the world through a single lens, they don’t just lose perspective—they lose flexibility. In a world that’s not getting any simpler, that’s a problem. This conversation is about something more foundational than curriculum. It’s about whether we’re preparing young people to engage with complexity, or training them to react to it.
The conversation closes with a practical look at what success looks like in Minnesota. Monica shares that she initially viewed the state through a Minneapolis-only lens—something she quickly realized didn’t reflect the full picture once she spent time there. It’s a small but important moment, reinforcing a theme that runs throughout the episode: the closer you get to people, the harder it is to reduce them to a narrative.
• Website: https://www.fairforall.org/
• X: https://x.com/Monica_Y_Harris
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/LetsGetUnplugged
• Substack: https://monica697.substack.com/
• Medium: https://monica-97916.medium.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/monica-harris-777740
We don’t get better conversations by simplifying everything. We get there by learning how to hold complexity without immediately turning it into conflict. Most of us were never taught how to do that—but it can be learned.
The world is a better place if we are better people. That begins with each of us as individuals. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for all you’ve got. Make every day the day that you want it to be!
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[00:00:00:00] Wilk Wilkinson: What if the way we're teaching American history is actually making things worse? Not for one group of kids, but for all of them. I recently sat down for an in-person conversation with my friend Monica Harris, executive director of Fair, and we talked about a different approach, one that tells more stories, not fewer, and teaches kids how to think, not what to think. Welcome back, my friends, for the Derate the Hate podcast. I'm your host, Wilk Wilkinson, your blue collar sage calming outrage and helping to navigate a world divided by fog and those who would spread that fear, outrage and grievance. The Derate the Hate podcast is proudly produced in collaboration with Braver Angels , America's largest grassroots cross. partisan organization working towards civic renewal. This podcast amplifies the mission that we share to foster a more respectful and united America where civic friendship thrives even when we disagree. Each week, through the power of story, conversation, and connection with incredible guests, we work to build bridges instead of barriers, not to change minds on the issues, but to change how we see one another when we differ. Because friends, it really is about bettering the world one attitude at a time. We did not create the hate, but together we can Derate the Hate. So be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Share it with a friend and visit BraverAngels.org to learn how you can get involved in the movement to bridge the partisan divide. Friends, I am so incredibly grateful that you have joined me for another powerful Derate the Hate episode. So let's get to it. My guest is Monica Harris. She's a Princeton and Harvard Law grad who spent over a decade as a business and legal affairs executive at Walt Disney Television, NBC Universal and Viacom. She left that world behind, moved her family to Montana, and has spent the years since writing, speaking and advocating for a more honest and unifying approach to the issues that divide us. She's a TEDx speaker, the author of The Illusion of Division, and the executive director of Fair the Foundation Against Intolerance and Racism. Monica and I go way back on this show, and today she's here in person in Minnesota to talk about something that matters a lot to both of us, how we educate the next generation about American history in a way that brings people together instead of driving them further apart. Let's get into it with my friend Monica Harris. Here we go. Monica Harris, thank you for joining me again on the Derate the Hate podcast, but this time live in person.
[00:03:21:17] Monica Harris: Yeah.
[00:03:22:02] Wilk Wilkinson: Good to see you.
[00:03:22:16] Monica Harris: Great to be here, Wilk.
[00:03:24:04] Wilk Wilkinson: So good to see you again. This is a treat to have you here in person here in Minnesota.
[00:03:27:23] Monica Harris: It's great. It's like my third time back in Minnesota. Really? I've really been enjoying it.
[00:03:32:14] Wilk Wilkinson: So one of the reasons that we are here is to talk about the American experience curriculum from from fair. Right.
[00:03:39:22] Monica Harris: That's correct. Which we are, which we are now. We recently changed the name of the curriculum to Many Stories, One Nation.
[00:03:47:16] Wilk Wilkinson: Many stories, One Nation.
[00:03:48:22] Monica Harris: Which we think better encapsulates what our curriculum is trying to to do, which is tell a lot of different stories from, you know, diverse Americans from different ethnicities and cultures. And we them all together into one, one story. Okay, an American story. But yeah, we just thought that would really resonate better with a broader, broader audience. So I'm happy to announce that here in your podcast.
[00:04:15:11] Wilk Wilkinson: Very nice, very nice. So many stories. And there are many stories I mean everybody. And one of the things you know, from, from church that I, that I always like to hear is, you know, every name has got a story. Every person's story. Yeah. You know, and, and the American story is made up of a lot of stories. Yep. And so when it comes to fair and this in this curriculum, Monica. What is different in this than because when people hear, you know, ethnic studies or things like that, they sometimes just think of, you know, that a lot of it, like the kind of ethnic studies and.
[00:04:58:23] Monica Harris: Critical race theory, critical.
[00:05:00:04] Wilk Wilkinson: Race theory or things like that, and it gets it gets people on edge. Yeah. What is what is different about the the curriculum, the mini stories, curriculum from there that people can, you know, can take away different than what they would pick up in civics course in high school or that kind of thing.
[00:05:21:14] Monica Harris: Well, I think it's best to start with a sort of understanding of what ethnic studies, or more commonly, liberated ethnic studies is. Sure. And it's a framework. I mean, I think at its heart it's trying to do something. This is me still Manning church star Manning. Yeah. I think at its heart, Ethnic Studies is trying to do something that this country students desperately need, which is provide a greater understanding of the different experiences of nonwhite peoples. And I can say that and know that's maybe not something that makes a lot of people uncomfortable. That term nonwhite. But the experiences of people who from different ethnicities and cultures, but also including, well, actually, ethnic studies does not include European immigrants, but so ethnic studies focuses on the experiences of people who are African American people who are Latinos, Asian Americans, religious might I don't even think religious minorities, but it's really fairly focused on on race. And it's important to tell these stories because for the longest time, these stories have not been, I think, broadly discussed in schools. They've largely been sanitized. And when I was in school, I learned about slavery, but I didn't learn a lot of the about I didn't learn about the atrocities. So there's so many there's so many levels in which students in the United States have not really gotten the full picture of the experiences of different, you know, ethnic groups and their challenges. So that's really important. And I and I think that's what Ethnic Studies is trying to do. But the mistake or I should say, the problem with liberated ethnic studies is that it does. It presents these stories through a lens of oppression. So pitting groups against one means other, like white people being oppressed, oppressors and nonwhite people being oppressed. Positioning the United States as a colonial power, which admittedly, it was historically, centuries ago, and probably even, you know, even more recently in the early part of the 20th century. But to call this a colonial nation, a colonial power now is just clearly not factually true of my, my, my opinion, opinion, and I think most Americans. So I think that is the general framework that we're working with against liberated ethnic studies. And what is taken is a potentially powerful moment, educating kids about diverse experiences and turned it into a very divisive moment. Yeah. So what? There's curriculum. Many stories one nation tries to do is present. Present an honest account of the experiences of these groups, but also to bring in other groups because, as we said, there are many stories. It's not just the stories of nonwhite people. There are European immigrants, Jews, poles, you know, and Italian-Americans. I mean, a lot of people may not know that the term womp, which is a derogatory term for Italians, literally means without papers.
[00:08:22:22] Wilk Wilkinson: Without papers.
[00:08:23:20] Monica Harris: Coming to Ellis Island. So there's and, you know, and there's countless stories throughout history, American history of signs in during the early 20th century, storefronts, stores, businesses and no Jews, no dogs. So discrimination and these challenges aren't limited to black and brown people. It's really an unfortunate part of the American story. But what we also do with this curriculum is not only focus on the challenges, but also the successes, the triumphs that these groups have have enjoyed, largely by harnessing our constitutional principles, very unique framework we have here and so we have nine units in the curriculum. We go from the colonial era to contemporary America. We start by examining the, the, the paradoxes in American history, which is all men are created equal, even as Black and African enslaved people were enslaved and women were treated as second class citizens. So we look at all of these experiences, not in boxes like ethnic studies, typically takes one group and just and this this week, for the next two weeks, we're going to talk about black people. The next two weeks we're going to talk about Asian Americans. Now we examine their experiences organically and chronologically as they occur throughout history. So the Asian American experience is a part of colonial America, right? Right, right. It's not just came later. Yeah, it came later. And so that's one thing that makes the curriculum unique. The other thing is that we incorporate civil discourse into every unit. And I think we can all agree that civil discourse is something that we need to do.
[00:10:01:20] Wilk Wilkinson: Well, yeah.
[00:10:02:15] Monica Harris: Standard bearer of angels.
[00:10:04:08] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, that's my wheelhouse.
[00:10:05:19] Monica Harris: That's a warehouse. Right. And it's, it's something that even adults don't do.
[00:10:10:20] Wilk Wilkinson: Right?
[00:10:11:08] Monica Harris: Especially adults don't do. So we feel it's very important to teach kids at the earliest ages. And this is, by the way, a social studies elective for high school students hope to get to develop something in the future, a version for middle and elementary school students. But right now we're focusing on high school students, and it's rather sophisticated material. But as part of our civil discourse toolkit. We teach students what you already know. What Braver Angels out of steel man out of star man, how to spot logical fallacies. That's right. Right. And these are these are really valuable tools that students can use to engage, not only when assessing the issues that these ethnic groups have faced throughout history, and contemporary issues like, you know, what was the 3/5 compromise really about? And, do we need is immigration? What are your thoughts on immigration and legal immigration? Are there purposes served by legal immigration and and illegal immigration? What are the pros and cons. Safety versus freedom. But just all the tensions in a diverse democracy, it's important that students be able to have these conversations respectfully. And even if they don't agree with each other, at least they can understand where the other why the other person believes what they do. Sure. And and with that, hopefully we can have a we can send them out into the world to be more civil participants in. All right. Democracy.
[00:11:33:15] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. There's a number of things there, Monica, that I want to keep on. And we'll just kind of break them down piece by piece, because I think it I think it's incredibly important to I mean, all the different elements that, that you're talking about there. I love the chronological order and that the thing that I like the most, though, I think is far too often we see things right now that are broken up into and centered around identity politics. Yes. Identity politics. I think this is a conversation you and I probably had a couple times is identity politics often takes over the conversation. It takes all the air out of the room, and we start to lose focus on on the really important things instead of instead of really getting to the meat of the issue, we get focused too much on the the identity class and then it becomes in us versus them. And you keyed on the oppressed and the oppressor. Let's talk a little bit about that, that victim mindset and what that oppressed and oppressor thing does. And then what that does to especially youth. Yeah. When they are convinced that they are the oppressed. And then the person sitting next to them in the classroom is an oppressor. That teaching in that. Yeah, that way has has, in my opinion, been an insurmountable. Well, I wouldn't say insurmountable. I think it's awesome.
[00:13:01:03] Monica Harris: Yeah, it's all surmountable, I think.
[00:13:02:15] Wilk Wilkinson: But it definitely. Even if it's even if it's done with the best of intentions, I think it does a a real disservice to the kids. And then society as a whole. Let's start there. And then we'll kind of break down a few more things.
[00:13:20:09] Monica Harris: Well, I think the damage that that framework does is twofold. I mean, the most obvious damage is to the to the oppressor, which is almost exclusively in this context, white people or sometimes white adjacent people, like Jewish people. And I say white adjacent and scare quotes, of course. And, you know, the most obvious damage is that these children who literally I think all children are born innocent. Yeah. So they have no concept of what it means to be an oppressor. They have they didn't participate in any of the alleged, you know, alleged systemic racism that occurred or, or allegedly it's still occurring. They, they're very ignorant of history themselves at age in fact. So but yet we're to to call them oppressors with this guilt and the shame. And I think it robs them of a lot of self-confidence. And more importantly, it actually makes them start to feel so different from what they see, people who aren't white. And it creates a bridge, a division, and it keeps them from connecting with each other. So that's the most obvious damage from that perspective of a white person. But there's also damage to the people that this framework is arguably trying to to help. The stories are trying to highlight. It robs black, brown, yellow, the red people signing colors of of it. You know that.
[00:14:45:21] Wilk Wilkinson: Hey it's a great Bible song. Yeah. My daughter yeah.
[00:14:48:08] Monica Harris: Black and white. Brown.
[00:14:49:08] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah yeah yeah. No it's it's yeah it is what it is. But yeah it's it's historically it's we've, we grew up listening to that song.
[00:14:58:08] Monica Harris: Yeah.
[00:14:58:21] Wilk Wilkinson: I think we can go with it.
[00:14:59:20] Monica Harris: Exactly. I mean I don't, I don't believe that, but I'm just, I'm sure.
[00:15:02:20] Wilk Wilkinson: No, no. Yeah.
[00:15:04:08] Monica Harris: So but it, it it robs the underrepresented groups of agency. If, if you grew up the I never would have attained what I have in life. I never would have gone to the schools. I'd gone to. I had the career I had. If I saw myself as a victim, if I saw myself as oppressed. So. Robbing someone of agency by putting is as you, as you said, this identity, putting them in this box, having them identify as a victim, you were pretty much guaranteeing that a child is going to set their sights very low. They're not going to they're not going to aspire because they feel that it's not their place to aspire. If you were a victim, you probably you're likely always going to think of yourselves, yourself as a victim. So that's the danger is twofold. It helps no one right. This framework.
[00:15:55:14] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, I don't think so. I mean, I think you've probably heard me talk about this before, but I, I talk about it in the context of the reticular activating system. Right? I mean, if, if, if you're if you're constantly told that you're a victim, you seek out points of affirmation for being a victim.
[00:16:11:05] Monica Harris: Oh, confirmation bias.
[00:16:12:06] Wilk Wilkinson: Confirmation bias, things like that. You know, we our brain can only focus on so many things at any given time. If if we're constantly told that we're a victim, or if we constantly are told that we have to work twice as hard to get half as much.
[00:16:25:05] Monica Harris: Yeah.
[00:16:26:03] Wilk Wilkinson: Our brain always has that there, and it will point out, instead of pointing out all the beautiful and things, great things in the world that that we should be grateful for, a lot of times it will focus on those things. Well, well, this person didn't open this door for me or that person didn't do that. It's because of this. Because I'm a victim. It keeps them stuck in that victim mindset. And it's like a perpetual victim mentality. And I think when people do that to a child and they convince them constantly that that's the thing, they start to focus on that and find all the ugly things in the world, instead of focusing on the beauty that's in the world.
[00:17:08:10] Monica Harris: Now, it's, you know, you mentioned something that I grew up with as a as a black kid. My parents always told me that I had to work twice as hard to achieve what a white person would, and that is this is and it was actually the experience of my family. Like, for example, I wrote about this in my book, The Illusion of Division. My father, when he was in his 20s, I was I was just a toddler. And this was literally just after the what's the what's riot? So I was like in like the early 60s, he was trying to get a job at the LA County Fire Department. I think it was the fire department. It was South Bay of L.A.. I know if you're familiar with South Bay. Anyway, he passed the written test, he passed the physical, and there was the only part of the test that was left was the interview with the captain.
[00:17:56:20] Wilk Wilkinson: Okay.
[00:17:57:07] Monica Harris: And he kept failing to interview. And he on the fourth interview, I believe that the captain literally just closed the door and told him, we're never going to hire a black guy here. I mean, you're wasting your time. Wow. And that's when he went to the sheriff's department, which at the time was much more open. So there was a time and, you know, my father, my, it's something similar happened to my mother. Again, this is a 60s right after the civil rights movement. So it was real. The discrimination was real. And you you did have to work twice as hard for sure. And I think that's what we're trying to explain, convey in this curriculum is that history isn't static. Right. And our situations and our relationships with people with each other aren't static. They change over time. They evolve. That's right. So I think it was appropriate for my father, my mother, to tell me at that time, you know, you really do have to work twice as hard. Luckily, I was a Gen Xer. I came of age in a time where so much rapid change. Yeah. And I truly feel that as I moved through college and law school and my career and forged my way as a lawyer, I felt that I was actually the plank that was leveling. Okay, now, was it completely level? Is it still completely level? No, because it's human beings. I don't think the playing field will ever be completely level for everyone, for men or women, for people who went to Harvard as opposed to people went to UCLA. So for people who grew up in a single family household, as opposed to those who grew up in a very, you know, like strong and structured, you know, nuclear family with, with two parents, for people who were a working class and people who were upper class and think, that will never be. That's right. That's but, you know, we're sort of approaching infinity. You never quite reach it. But I do think that we are at a point now where we we have more agency as Americans. That's right. Regardless of the color of our skin and we need to celebrate that and not, as you say, fall into a victim mindset. And always keep in mind that it is possible to improve our situation, our state, our our, our circumstances if we're willing to work.
[00:20:07:15] Wilk Wilkinson: That's right. No, I think that's absolutely right. And and a few of those things that that you were saying there, Monica, make me think about something else that I really wanted to talk about in terms of and see how it relates to this curriculum, is the idea of minimization. Obviously I haven't walked in your shoes, you know, you haven't walked in my shoes. We cannot completely relate to, you know, what your life experience is, what my life experience is. And and a lot of times in these conversations. I think people well, it's kind of a two fold day, right? It's either we are afraid to say or ask the questions that we ask be for fear of offending somebody, or we're we're afraid to say something because if we say it in a certain way, it feels like we're minimizing that person's experience. I don't think this is exclusive to racial divides or or class divides or anything like that. But the, the idea in that, in that I want to take this in two different places because as Americans, we are living in increasingly different realities, you know, based on our divides and based on the media that we consume or what our background was or, or what, you know, how those things happen. How would you say this curriculum addresses that idea of number one, minimization in in conversations across the divide. But then number two, how do or how does this particular more stories one nation curriculum address the idea of those. And I don't even know if it does, but does it address those increasingly different realities that we live in as Americans? And is there a way that this could be kind of tethered to that to to help alleviate that as a problem?
[00:22:09:07] Monica Harris: Well, I think one of the ways and I'm not sure if I'm understanding your point about minimization, you're saying minimizing other people's perspectives. Sort of.
[00:22:20:07] Wilk Wilkinson: Right. Well, minimizing other people's perspective, their struggle or their experience as in life, like gotcha. Like I grew up very poor. I never graduated college. I, I've lived a completely different life. I, you know, some people don't.
[00:22:36:11] Monica Harris: Minimize hardships, for example.
[00:22:38:04] Wilk Wilkinson: Minimizing hardships to minimize. Yeah, yeah. Are different stories. Yes, yes. You know, everybody has a story. We all, you know, absolutely nobody knows exactly what I've been through. Nobody knows exactly what you've been through. And to just say, oh, well no, I've, I've, you know, I've studied this or I've heard that and whatever. And now, I mean, now I know exactly who you are. I mean, we don't do that. Yeah, but we we risk when we're having those conversations, minimizing the struggles that you faced or minimizing the struggles that I've faced. And I think that and the reason I brought it up in context with the reality thing or different, different realities is those realities that people are living in are based on their perception of things, their perception based on how they grew up, their perception of the neighborhoods and deal with and lived in. The perception based on the media that they consume. There's all these different things that shape our realities. And too often we, in conversation, minimize the things that the other person has dealt with. You know, or, you know, minimize the struggles that they, they've, they've dealt with. I think it's important for, for context for youngsters to, to learn how to navigate that. And, and another thing in, in the curriculum that I saw was the, the idea that we want to teach them not what to think about how to think.
[00:24:05:02] Monica Harris: Absolutely.
[00:24:05:16] Wilk Wilkinson: Right. So so I think we could tie all those things together and maybe, maybe it's too much, but I'm sure you can. Yeah.
[00:24:12:02] Monica Harris: Yeah I think that. So minimization. Thank you for explaining that. I see what you're saying. This is I think one of it goes back to one of the distinguishing features of the curriculum. It's easy to minimize other people's experiences when you don't talk about them. Right. And that's what I think one of the big flaws of liberated ethnic studies is, as I've said, just focuses on very narrow groups of people, of Americans. So what we do in this curriculum is we by telling mini stories, we include the stories of scare quote scares, oppressors, including you. You might, you know, Italian-Americans, Irish American, someone with a Jewish last name. They may like back over on the major company, or they may like, you know, be an incredibly wealthy lawyer or a doctor, but you don't know the story of their families, their ancestors, how they got to that. Yeah. You go back to the immigration and the turn of the century from Eastern Europe and particularly from southern Europe. And you see exactly how these people were welcomed into American society. Yes. Emma Lazarus there. Her famous point is, and inscribed at the base of the Statue of Liberty. Give me your tired, your hungry, hungry. You're hungry. You're wretched masses yearning to breathe free. Yes. We welcomed you. Yes. Come. But the way these people were treated with white skin after they came to America. Right? It wasn't pretty in a lot of respects. No, there was a lot of struggle. So what we try to convey in the curriculum is that there are a lot of parallel experiences that different ethnic groups, particularly Japanese, Japanese, were interned. I mean, that's not slavery, but I mean, these were American citizens who were literally put in cages.
[00:25:55:19] Wilk Wilkinson: Yep. The concentration camps concentration because of their ethnicity. Yes.
[00:25:59:23] Monica Harris: Yeah, that was crazy. So I and I think a lot of a lot of students today, a lot of young people are ignorant of this history. And I think when they come to understand that so many different groups of all races have had similar experiences of exclusion. I'm not justifying it, but just explaining that this is the path that so many people have followed. Then it actually becomes a unifying moment and you realize that, wow, what I'm experiencing now in my community, experiencing now, it's not new, doesn't make it right, but it also means that I'm not there. There isn't a single box of oppressor and a single box of oppressors. We've all been, you know, we all been mixed around, right? And so getting to the point, how do you make people I think this is your second point. How do you make them more sensitive to the fact that there are different realities we're living in? And my reality is not the only reality. Realities vary depending upon what media you consume, what facts you believe, what experts you believe. Right. I think that the civil discourse prong that I mentioned, that tortured, I think it's going to be extremely powerful in helping students. Appreciate the perspectives of other of, you know, not just other students, but other adults, other people in their world. It's going to make them much more, it's going to bring critical thinking to their ability to assess information, whether they're getting it from their friends, whether they're seeing it on the news, whether they're just seeing it in their community every day. The ability to still man and again, to go back to still, I know, you know, it's still maddening is. But yeah, still, Manning is essentially looking at expressing or attempting to express the other person's position, even if you disagree with it as clearly as possible. In other words, yeah.
[00:27:59:15] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, in a way that they understand it. Yeah.
[00:28:01:16] Monica Harris: In a way it shows you're listening in.
[00:28:03:01] Wilk Wilkinson: That's right.
[00:28:03:11] Monica Harris: Yeah. That's right. And star Manning. Which angel. Eduardo. Yeah.
[00:28:06:13] Wilk Wilkinson: Exactly.
[00:28:07:05] Monica Harris: Sir. He's he's coined that is actually putting their position in the best light possible and being as empathetic as you possibly can and assuming the best of intentions in their perspective. Because just as I believe all children are born innocent, I believe that the vast majority of human beings are good. And what whether they're on the left or right or anywhere in between, they're taking these positions not because they're bad people or because they want something bad for this country or other people, but because they really believe this is the best way forward. This is the best path. So one of the other great things about the curriculum is that in order to facilitate what I just talked about, which is of other people's perspectives, we get a different ways of looking at arguments. For example, the competing goods argument is a recurring framework we, we, we use in the curriculum. And that means that sometimes when we disagree about things, it's a we can both believe, and we believe in two things that are good. We it's our values, okay. Our values are we each believe something is good, but we don't. We don't. I guess to put it another way, I get a better way of putting it. Is that competing goods means that each one of us has a good that we're pursuing, and we're not looking at the other person's good. And by good I mean a value. So for example, safety versus freedom, we could each have a different way of looking at a particular policy, because one of us places an emphasis on safety. Sure. And the other places an emphasis on freedom. Yeah. Which is the better good. There is no better good. It's just a matter of your perspective.
[00:29:49:04] Wilk Wilkinson: Just a matter of perspective.
[00:29:50:17] Monica Harris: So giving, giving kids, giving students the ability to evaluate issues and policies and just arguments, they may have discussions they may be having with this one tool in mind. Just competing goods. I think it'll go a long way towards broadening their perspective. Yeah.
[00:30:11:04] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. I love that idea of competing goods and, you know, this this goes to a bigger point and something that I talk, talk about quite often and, and that is, is the idea of synergy. And that's what, what comes to mind right away when, when we talk about that, when it comes to trying to work through a particular problem or trying to problem solve with with people who have differing opinions on on what the desired outcome should be. A lot of times the desired outcome is the same, but getting there is is a different thing. Or or we think too much about what we have to give up to get to something. Whereas, you know, when we talk about competing goods, if you start with that in mind, you know, when when you start to say, okay, what is my desired outcome here? But but understanding the footing that you guys are both entering that on is your your greatest desire is safety. My greatest desire is liberty. Are there things that we can do to come together to a solution that's better than the sum of its parts? Not in necessarily giving up something, you know, like Stephen Covey talked about in the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. And we don't always have to have a, a, a lose win or a win lose. But if we can find a win win that meets or checks the boxes of liberty and safety, maybe we don't get to everything that we wanted, but we come to a solution that's better than the sum of its parts.
[00:31:45:09] Monica Harris: A compromise of some sorry.
[00:31:46:15] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's like compromise. But I think synergize is always better. Compromise. I always think of compromise as this dirty word settling. It's settling for something less than what I wanted. Whereas synergize is finding something that's better than I would have come up with myself. You and I go, go, go into a negotiation. We're trying to figure out, you know, what it is that we want. And and, you know, if we are not so focused on what I have to give up to meet your needs, and you're not so focused on what you have to give up to meet my needs, but we take our desired outcomes and look for a solution that's better than the sum of its parts. I when you talk about the the competing goods, that's what I think of right away. But it's really about the mindset going into that conversation. So when we think about this curriculum and then we think about desired outcomes, what does success look like. And let's just take this Minnesota specific for a minute, right? Minnesota I mean Minnesota specific. What if we're thinking about desired outcomes. We're thinking about success. What does success look like? You know, any product that any organization puts out, they want to you know, we always want to think about what does success look like, what's the end game with this particular thing.
[00:33:07:02] Monica Harris: And give me a timeline or.
[00:33:10:07] Wilk Wilkinson: It doesn't necessarily have to have a timeline. I mean, if a school if a school in Minnesota, let's say in the next school year, I mean, I think we're already well over halfway through this one, but but let's say in the in the next school year that's coming up for the 2627 school year, if they were to try out this curriculum and in this in this particular state, which is highly polarized. But what does that what does success look like in, in that if they, if they use that curriculum and what's the end game. What's the what's it look like.
[00:33:46:09] Monica Harris: So I mean, there's a there's a few different ways of looking at this. It's a big state and now that I've spent some time here just over the past three days, I realized that it's a very diverse state. It's. I'm going to I'm going to sound ignorant, but haven't been here. Like I said, in ten years, landscape's changed a lot. But everything I knew about Minnesota I'd seen on the news since George Floyd, that's when everyone started paying attention to Minnesota. And I honestly thought, I know it's embarrassing. I hope I'm not going to offend any of your viewers or listeners, I should say, but I honestly thought Minneapolis Saint Paul was representative of the entire state.
[00:34:27:06] Wilk Wilkinson: Oh yeah.
[00:34:28:15] Monica Harris: And I was sorely mistaken there.
[00:34:31:01] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. No, that's that's absolutely right. But then, I mean, hey, it happens all the time, right? Everybody thinks all of Illinois at Chicago, right? Everything's all of Minnesota is Minneapolis.
[00:34:41:03] Monica Harris: California is LA, all.
[00:34:42:11] Wilk Wilkinson: Of California is LA. I mean, it's it's again, our perception becomes our reality. And if all we're consuming are all we see is what happened in LA or what happened in Chicago or what happened in Minneapolis, Saint Paul. You know, they don't see that vast landscape outside that particular land, 100%.
[00:35:02:17] Monica Harris: So I think that just to be completely, brutally honest, the likelihood of adoption of this curriculum in the next school year, 2026 2027, school year in the Twin Cities, it's slim. It's not it's not something I'm putting on the table, but it's it's going to be a challenge in the current environment. However, I now see significant potential in the outlying areas in the suburbs a little further north in the rural areas. So to get to your point, what success would look like for me is to even have 2 or 3 schools in Minnesota, again, not necessarily in the Twin Cities, elsewhere in Minnesota adopt this curriculum. And one of the things we plan to do, in consultation with Johns Hopkins, which the Johns Hopkins School of Education did evaluate this rigorously evaluate this curriculum. And I mentioned that and determined that it's aligned brilliantly with social studies standards and ethnic studies standards for California and Oregon, not yet aligned to Minnesota. So that's another thing. We need to raise money so we can pay for a Johns Hopkins at Johns Hopkins Review to align it with Minnesota standards. But let's just say the review's done. We have this curriculum placed in a couple of years and 2 to 3 schools in Minnesota. I'm hoping that the feedback is going to that we get from teachers and from students and from even parents is going to be the barometer for our success right now. Like 67% of teachers across the country just complain that it's difficult to teach students because the classrooms are so polarized, because the curriculum so polarized, polarizing teachers, students right now, they feel is you just mentioned yourself as an adult. They feel unwilling to say certain things in class to express themselves to, to share their opinions. Yeah, there's a lot of intimidation. And I'm hoping that the feedback we get from from this course is going to be teachers who see less division in classrooms, less stress, less polarization, less anxiety, and students who for the for, you know, first time in a long time can actually say, you know, I feel comfortable speaking. I've learned so much more about our country. I appreciate my classmates in a way I never did, that sort of that sense of connection where that's just so that's what we're hoping. We're hoping that the feedback is going to is going to help you. It's going to give us some hope that we're unifying this country, that we're on the way to unifying students and hopefully, you know, these students will later become adults. These students are going to go to college. And that's the other reason that it's really important to have this curriculum at the high school level.
[00:37:57:02] Wilk Wilkinson: Right?
[00:37:58:00] Monica Harris: These are these this curriculum is designed for 11th and 12th grade students. It's a pivotal point for them. They're just getting ready to make the leap to college and the, the tools we give them, the way of looking at the world, the ability to not not know what to think, but how to think, giving them that, that that's the critical thinking skills. That's that's something they're going to take to college at a very important time when they're being inundated with ideology. Right. When you know, right, they're being told what to think. They can push back and say, you know what? No, no, no, let me thank you for the information. Now let me make my own decisions. Let me for my own opinions. So anyway, getting back to success. Yeah, I think the success success is all going to come in the way of feedback, that there's a second layer of success or second measure of success, and this is going to take a little longer, and that is word of mouth. I strongly believe that if this curriculum is as successful as we believe it is, we're going to find adoption spread rather rapidly because of that word of mouth. So the first year, maybe 2 or 3 schools, success to me would be like the second year, ten schools. And then I'm not saying it's going to go logarithmic, but I'm expecting or hoping for. Rapid uptake works once the first launch is once we launch.
[00:39:17:23] Wilk Wilkinson: Yeah. Well, and one of the things that comes to mind there for me, well, you know, just listening to you talk about what success looks like is that or in just putting it in my own words, I guess, is, is the increased likelihood for meaningful engagement across divides? I don't know, I mean, that's that's really what it comes down to. And I think that's what we really lack in, in so many aspects of life right now is and I think that's absolutely the place to get it is in the, in the schools because if you can get if you can teach your youngster, you know, how to think about what to think. And then they have the, you know, competency when they get to an environment like in college to maybe push back, which there's always going to be a certain degree of of hesitancy there. But if you can build their confidence, you hit on so many great things, but I mean, increase their confidence to engage meaningfully across divides, engage meaningfully when they see something that doesn't sit right with them, you know, engage meaningfully when they're encountering somebody that you know, they don't see as like them. But but taking that guard down a bit. So, so they aren't self-censoring and they don't expect somebody else to self-censor, right? I mean, all those things are just incredibly important. And and that that pivotal moment in, in a, in a person's life when they're transitioning from child to adulthood, I mean, that is that is absolutely the right place. Monica. This has been a great conversation. And, yeah, I mean, I've had a lot of fun doing it. And I appreciate you sharing more with me about Phair's curriculum, the the many stories in One Nation. It's it's in there's a lot of stories out there, a lot of people out there. And we all have to coexist. So yeah, we need to we need to understand each other. And and I've really enjoyed it. Thank you so.
[00:41:10:16] Monica Harris: Much. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.
[00:41:14:03] Wilk Wilkinson: Friends, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. And if there's anything in this episode that provided exceptional value to you, please make sure to hit that share button. If you haven't done so already, please be sure to subscribe to get the Derate the Hate podcast sent to your email inbox every week. We really are better together, so please take a moment to visit BraverAngels.org and consider joining the movement towards civic renewal and bridging our political divides. This is Wilk wrapping up for the week saying get out there. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you've got. And remember, it's up to you to make every day the day that you want it to be. With that, my friends, I'm going to back on out of here and we will catch you next week. Take care.
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