Today, over 70 years after Brown v. Board of Education, there is an urgent need to reaffirm and advance the core principles of the civil-rights movement. The defining question of our time is: How do we break through the demonization and division, and move forward together as Americans? In this episode of Derate the Hate, Wilk talks with Daryl Davis, Bion Bartning, Letitia Kim and Lory Warren, the co-founders of the Prohuman Foundation, to explore compelling questions such as, “How much do identity group labels really tell us about people?”; “How can you hate me when you don’t even know me?”; And, “How can education help to overcome racism and intolerance?” We discuss the genesis of the Prohuman mission and movement; their focus on promoting the foundational truth that every person is a unique individual, united by our shared humanity; and how the Prohuman approach can make a positive difference for K-12 educators and their students.
Visit www.prohumanfoundation.org to get involved and learn more.
Key takeaways:
Daryl Davis, Global Ambassador and Founding Member of the Board of Directors
Daryl Davis is best known for his talent as a musician; he is an international recording artist and is recognized for being one of the greatest Blues, Boogie Woogie & Rock ’n’ Roll pianists of all time.
In addition to his music career, Daryl is the author of Klan-Destine Relationships, which was the first book written about the Ku Klux Klan by a Black author. His engagement with the KKK started when, while playing at a club in Pennsylvania, a member of the Klan in the audience praised him for his musical style. Daryl recognized that he had an opportunity to ask an important question about racism: “How can you hate me when you don’t even know me?” Daryl has interviewed and built relationships with hundreds of KKK members and other White supremacists. His influence has led many of them to renounce their racist ideology.
The documentary film about Daryl’s life’s work, Accidental Courtesy, illustrates his process of conversation and understanding to bridge differences and promote racial reconciliation.
Bion Bartning, Board President and Founding Member of the Board of Directors
Bion Bartning is an entrepreneur and investor, and is also the founder of FAIR, the Foundation Against Intolerance and Racism.
Previously, Bion co-founded and led the launch of eos Products, a personal care brand best known today for its iconic egg-shaped lip balm, while serving as an equity partner and Chief Operating Officer of The Kind Group, a privately held company dedicated to the development and expansion of brands.
Bion was also part of American Express’ Strategic Planning Group, where he conceived of and patented a new multi-channel system for booking travel and led the launch of a new consumer online travel business as Director, New Product Development, partnering with a major online travel agency.
Bion earned his MBA from Columbia Business School, and graduated magna cum laude with a degree in economics and environmental studies from Occidental College. He lives in Miami with his wife and two young children.
Letitia Kim, Treasurer and Founding Member of the Board of Directors
Letitia Kim is an attorney licensed in California and New York. She served as an Assistant United States Attorney in the Civil Division of the Northern District of California, where she litigated cases under the Civil Rights Act and other federal statutes. She also practiced at Sonnenschein Nath & Rosenthal (now Dentons), focusing almost exclusively on federal litigation and appellate practice. Most recently, Letitia was the legal director at a nonprofit organization advocating for civil rights and liberties in schools and other institutions.
Letitia is an honors graduate of Cornell University, where she received her degree in Philosophy and the University of Michigan Law School. Her passions are reading, physical fitness, traveling, and being a mother to her two children and four pets. She lives in San Francisco.
Lory Warren, Executive Director
Lory Warren brings a range of professional experience to her role as Executive Director at the Prohuman Foundation. She has an extensive background in healthcare, including nursing, hospital administration, network development, and school health services. In the nonprofit sector, Lory has experience in volunteer recruitment and management and most recently served as the Chief Operating Officer at an organization that supported educational initiatives and civil rights. Her most important job is being a wife and mom.
A cum laude graduate of Vanderbilt University, Lory holds a bachelor’s degree in Human and Organizational Development and a master’s degree in Nursing. She lives in Minnesota with her family and enjoys running, kayaking, skiing, snowshoeing, and anything outdoors.
00:00 Introduction and Purpose of the Pro Human Foundation
03:01 Background of the Pro Human Foundation
05:22 Individual Stories and Motivations
11:08 The Role of Education and Exposure in Battling Ignorance
14:12 The Pro Human Approach and Focus on K-12 Education
22:42 Action Items of the Pro Human Foundation
25:33 Darryl Davis' Role as Global Ambassador
30:23 The Importance of Shared Humanity
38:33 The Pro Human Approach vs. Us vs. Them Mentality
49:47 Recognizing Individual Experiences and Avoiding Oversimplification
56:28 Condemning the Message, Not the Messenger
57:27 Finding Humanity in Others
58:25 Working Towards Redemption and Reconciliation
59:50 Changing the World One Attitude at a Time
01:01:16 Launch of Pro Human Foundation
01:02:13 Bridging the Divide
01:03:36 Recognizing the Humanity in All
01:04:33 Creating Something Together
01:05:30 Unity in the Community
01:06:29 Gratitude and Love for Collaboration
01:07:27 Recognizing Good and Evil in All
01:08:22 Focusing on Common Humanity
01:09:21 Avoiding Oversimplification and Labels
01:10:44 Embracing Collaboration and Inclusion
01:11:12 Spreading the Message and Taking Action
What have you done today to make your life a better life? What have you done today to make the world a better place? The world is a better place if we are better people. That begins with each of us as individuals. Be kind to one another. Be grateful for everything you’ve got. Make each and every day the day that you want it to be!
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I look forward to hearing from you!
Wilk - DerateTheHate.com (00:05.866)
All right, folks, this is a real special episode. A lot of people know when I do the Derate The Hate podcast, I typically only have one, maybe two guests. Tonight, I am truly honored to have four guests. And it's more than an honor because it's four people that I admire incredibly, people that I've had conversations with before.
One Mr. Daryl Davis has been on the Derate the Hate podcast before. Then my friend, Bion Bartning, we've had a number of conversations, never on the air. But tonight I have Daryl Davis, Bion Bartning, Lory Warren, and Letitia Kim have joined me on the Derate the Hate podcast. So welcome, folks. Thank you so much for joining me. I can't tell you how much I appreciate you all joining me today.
for this incredible conversation and important conversation.
Daryl Davis (01:04.731)
It's our pleasure.
Wilk - DerateTheHate.com (01:08.281)
All right, so the reason that we're here today is because there is a new organization launching this month. It's going to be called the Pro Human Foundation. Now, people who may not be familiar with this group, I mean, like I said, I know people, as they hear these names, are going to be familiar with in many ways, especially in the circles.
that we run in the people that listen to the DTH podcast are very familiar with the organization FAIR. I've had a number of people and a number of conversations with people associated with the Foundation Against Intolerance and Racism on this podcast. And now I'm excited to find out that some of my favorite people are starting this organization called the Pro Human Foundation. So Lory Warren is going to be the executive director.
of the Pro Human Foundation and then the trio, Daryl Davis, Bion Bartning and Letitia Kim are going to be the founders of Pro Human Foundation. So we're going to get into this conversation, look at what the Pro Human Foundation is, what their goal is, what their mission is with this, and the backstory for what made this thing happen. So.
Let's start with Lory since you are, you're gonna be the executive director. Let's get your story first and I'm just gonna go around with how I see y'all on my screen. So Lory Warren, take it away. Let me know what is the Pro Human Foundation and we'll start right there.
Lory Warren (02:55.062)
Well, why don't I start by telling you what our mission is. Our mission is to promote the foundational truth that we are all unique human beings united by our shared humanity. And I have come to this organization, I have come to this work, first of all, because I'm a mom, I'm doing it for my daughter. And when I...
When I first started doing this work, it really came from a concern over sort of the identitarian way of thinking about things. I noticed so much toxic polarization happening in our world today, as well as people not talking to each other, but talking at each other. And so these were matters of concern for me.
And that's what brought me to this work. And that's what I'm excited about addressing with the Pro Human Foundation.
Wilk - DerateTheHate.com (03:59.917)
Good. Yeah, that's awesome. I mean, that's a battle that we're all fighting these days, right? This identitarian, it's something I've been talking about a lot, obviously, on the Derate 8 podcast, is this toxic identitarianism that's going around how everybody's being tossed in a box. And then, you know, everybody loses that individualism that we have that, in my opinion, is one of the most important things that we do possess as an individual, right? So...
Letitia, what is your role with the Pro Human Foundation, other than founder of course or co-founder, but I know with FAIR, your role was very big in the legal aspect of it. What is your role going to be here in the Pro Human Foundation?
Letitia Kim (04:48.612)
Thanks. That's a great question. My role is basically a board member and an officer. So I'm the secretary treasurer on the board of directors. And so I think that gives with along with Vine and Daryl, I think that gives us a really great opportunity to keep the organization tight and on mission. We're not working with a giant board here. We're not working with the giant staff here. And we have very clear articulated specific goals.
So in terms of what brought me to the Pro Human Foundation, of course, I came, you know, via FAIR. And I have a very similar story to Lory's. I too, you know, after spending several years practicing law, I had children, I quit to focus on my children. And in around 2018, I started noticing really by accident, some things that were appearing in the curriculum that were
at the time, they sounded innocuous enough, we're going to study identity in this unit, but they went in a direction that my husband and I were not anticipating. And really that was not consistent with our values. Now I'm in a multiracial family, my husband's Korean, I'm mostly Mediterranean and my kids are a mix. So it really isn't even clear where my children fall on this matrix that's been adopted by the identitarian movement.
And for a variety of reasons, it struck me as being perhaps well-intentioned, but not the way forward, particularly given the times that we were living in. It really seemed to explode around the time that we had just gone through a very partisan election. So I think...
I think our culture at large was basically putting fire on very dry kindling and boom. So for a while, I just thought I was alone, that my husband and I objected to it, but I live in San Francisco and so I figured, well, nobody objects to this but me. And gradually, I found a small community of people who felt similarly to the way I feel, that we do need to address these pressing
Letitia Kim (07:05.46)
of racism and oppression where it exists, both in the present times and in the past. But we have to do it in a way that honors our shared humanity and does not engender so much anger and hatred, which we saw on full display in 2020, 2021 with the school board meetings that just went crazy. I mean, schools and parents are supposed to be partners, and yet we saw them turn into absolute adversaries. So, you know, being at...
FAIR for me. Part of my role there was to help ideally patch that over and try to create bridges. And then when bridges really weren't possible to then to proceed through litigation, which really wasn't commonly done at FAIR. And then when Vine approached me about joining the Pro Human Foundation, I was thrilled because again,
Our mission is very limited and it's very clear and it fills a needed hole right now in our K through 12 system.
Wilk - DerateTheHate.com (08:12.649)
Right, right. Yeah, yeah, it absolutely does. It's, uh, it's one of those things. And, and, you know, you brought up a really good point there, Letitia, and we can get into a little bit more, but, uh, that, that's one of the things that, that it has really bugged me. And I know bugged a lot of people that I've talked to, uh, about this, this whole identitarian thing and being placed in boxes and stuff like that. What happens to the interracial, you know, families that the families are or, or mixed race families, right?
And and where do they go and how awkward does that make especially the kids because that's one of the things that I am so passionate about and in so many of these different things is how does it affect the children and what's gonna be? the long-term effect of that and did anybody think about the Toxicity that these boxes are to people who you know are like well I should I can fit in that box and I can fit in that box
And if I don't choose that one, are they going to be mad? And how awkward that is for kids. And that just bugs me so much. So.
Letitia Kim (09:20.04)
Yeah, it is increasing really because I believe I recently read that 20% of new marriages are interracial. So it's a rapidly growing family structure that just can't be.
Wilk - DerateTheHate.com (09:28.163)
Yeah.
Absolutely. No, it is. So, all right. My buddy, Daryl Davis, such a good, I'm so glad to have you back on the show, man. We it's been too long since we've talked. Yeah, it's great to see you, Daryl. And yeah, there's a there's a number of things that I'm looking forward to asking you, especially with regard to this project, because it's actually, you know, it's something that
Daryl Davis (09:42.456)
Glad to be back and see you soon.
Wilk - DerateTheHate.com (10:00.621)
that we talked about nearly two years ago in the work that you have been doing, have always done. One of the things that you mentioned in our first conversation, and I've seen so much out of your work, is the real solution to battling ignorance and ignorance leading to fear, fear leading to hate, and hate leading to...
you know, hate leading to anger and anger leading to violence. That solution to the ignorance comes through education and exposure, right? Education and getting people familiar with people that they normally probably wouldn't interact with or maybe haven't been exposed to. So, Daryl, tell me about your role now with the Pro Human Foundation.
and what it really was for you that kind of steered you in this direction and how you,
Bion Bartning (11:01.753)
Thank you.
Daryl Davis (11:15.168)
Okay, sure. Well, I had the pleasure of, you know, I've been in the racial reconciliation arena, if you will, for now, as of 2024, for about 42 years. I've always been interested in that kind of thing and been doing that kind of work. I had the pleasure of meeting Bion Bartning, you know, several years ago, I was referred to him by a mutual acquaintance of ours, and he contacted me and through our conversation, we found that we had a lot in common.
and a great passion for bringing people together and through conversations and solving differences. So he invited me to be on the board of advisors for the organization FAIR, Foundation Against Intolerance and Racism. And I remain on that board of advisors. But you know, new doors open and things like that. And I'm proud also to be on this board of advisors of the ProHuman Foundation.
or board of directors, I should say, of the ProHuman Foundation. And we are, like Lory and LaTitia pointed out, we are a smaller, more targeted organization. So we concentrate on solving, you know, not a whole lot of problems, but a limited amount of problems and move from one to the other rather than be as big as we were coming out of a FAIR. So I think, you know, there's room for all kinds of organizations. You need those that are...
that are laser focused and those that are wider focused. And we are the laser focused version.
Wilk - DerateTheHate.com (12:50.701)
Very nice. Laser focused. And when you say laser focused and, uh, maybe I'll, I'll throw this to, to buy in, but, um, you know, obviously this is going to focus more on, on education than, um, then more on education, less on litigation, right? More, uh, more, uh, engagement with, with youngsters, right? Getting, uh, going right to.
Going back to our conversation a while back, Daryl, when we talked to, how do we address this? We get to the nucleus, right? Root cause problem solving, stamp it out before it gets to the hate, anger, violence situation. So, Bion, talk to me a little bit about, oh, go ahead. Sorry, Daryl.
Daryl Davis (13:38.553)
No, no, we're just talking about what you're saying is being proactive. You know, go to the nucleus. Don't put a bandaid on the symptom. You know, fix the root cause.
Wilk - DerateTheHate.com (13:48.665)
Very nice. Absolutely. I mean, it's just, it seems, it seems to me and probably everybody else on this, this panel today, it seems so simple yet it's so seldom done. And I, and I just don't know why because it is one of those things that we can look at it. And it's like, okay, well, why, why do we always mess around with, with the aftermath? Why, why are we always going after the, these things?
after they happen. Why don't we try and address them before? So, Bion, talk to me a little bit about that. Talk to me about, you know, how this started for you and what's that backstory there for you, Bion?
Bion Bartning (14:31.737)
Sure, thanks Welk and thanks for having us on. For me, I think similar to Letitia and Lory, I'm a parent and I saw, in my case, it was in 2020, I saw my kid's school, I think, in a well-intentioned but misguided way, embrace.
what I would call a more anti-human approach to addressing real issues of racism, bias, systemic issues that do exist. And when I started looking into where these ideas were coming from, it just really raised a whole bunch of concerns for me. And to me, it felt somewhat existential because I think similar to...
to Letitia, in my case, I'm actually, I have a mixed race background. My father is Mexican and Yaqui. I actually did my 23 and me, and I found that I'm 2% West African even, which was kind of cool. So I have an ancestor from the 1800s from Africa. But I think that's more and more typical in America to have people who have mixed backgrounds. And as Letitia said, the statistics are
are pretty clear that that's the direction that this country is heading. And I think that's a wonderful thing. And so this kind of identitarian group identity-based approach to addressing racism, to me seems not only backwards, but also completely misses the point, because I think more and more children are of mixed ancestry. And I think that that's...
that's the future that we'd all like to see, I think is that people are, you know, are brothers and sisters and see each other that way, regardless of skin color and that we grow, not that we're there yet, but that we grow to see skin color as something that doesn't define a person, you know? And so, you know, it doesn't mean that racism doesn't exist. It doesn't mean that these aren't real issues that need to be addressed, but I think where we...
Bion Bartning (16:55.906)
where I came to see an issue, and I think where the Pro Human Foundation would see, would take a different path than some have taken to addressing these issues, is that really the path forward is to recognize that every person is a unique individual, that we need to take the time to invest in getting to know that person. And we are all part of one human race. And so by emphasizing.
Wilk - DerateTheHate.com (17:18.133)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Bion Bartning (17:21.713)
unique identity, shared humanity, we see that as the path forward. And I think Daryl's been very clear that one of his inspirations and maybe his biggest inspiration has been Martin Luther King. And I think that MLK really did lay out that, articulate clearly the pro-human philosophy. So I...
I don't know that what we're advocating for is brand new. I don't even know that Martin Luther King was the first one to recognize this philosophy. I think this is a philosophy that really has its roots even further back than that. So for me, this is something that is something that I'm passionate about, that I care about deeply, that I see as truly existential.
And I'd like to be part of offering proactive solutions. I think Daryl has said pro-human is proactive and I completely agree with that. And I would also say what brings us together, other than the fact that I love these people, these, LaTisha, Lory, Daryl, I think are just wonderful people. I've had the pleasure of getting to know over the years. But I think that
All of us are problem solvers. We're not reactionaries. We're not the kind of people to get angry and lash out. I think that our approach is to take a more measured approach to understanding problems and then trying to do something to solve them. So I would say we are very much a group of problem solvers.
The focus of the Pro Human Foundation is on K through 12. And that was really what inspired me to start FAIR in the first place is just the experience that I had with my kid's school. I think there is no legal arm of the Pro Human Foundation. We are not a civil liberties or civil rights organization. We are an education organization. And I think that our goal is to
Bion Bartning (19:33.725)
is to really be a light in the darkness and to offer educational materials and support for teachers and students around the pro-human approach.
Wilk - DerateTheHate.com (19:49.237)
Yeah, and I love that. I absolutely love that. Again, I'll go back to what I said earlier in this conversation. I've said so many times before. We need more people that are focusing on the root cause rather than that reactionary thing, right? I mean, there is always going to be a time for litigation, you know, but if we can focus on that nucleus, focus on
the problem before it becomes a problem. I mean, I'm a business guy. I've been in operations management now for a decade and I've been, you know, one of the things that I try to focus on so much is, I don't like management by crisis. I don't like to fight battles after I'm already on my heels. I would much rather figure out the problem ahead of time or at least identify what the problem could be.
and then work to eliminate that as a possibility going forward so that, again, I'm not fighting that battle on my heels. I'm not ending up in court trying to defend somebody after the damage has been done already. So Lory, talk to me a little bit about some of the action items that the Pro Human Foundation is going to be engaged in to...
to really bring this to like, like Bion said, K through 12 education. What are some of the things that the Pro Human Foundation is going to focus on right away for action items to really get this into the educators or to the educators? Because we know that there's probably going to be pushback because that's just the way that these school boards are right now. So what are some of the things that you guys are doing?
Lory Warren (21:47.15)
Well, first of all, we chose to focus on education because education is so powerful, it's so influential, but with that you also have such a great responsibility. And I also want to say that teachers have it kind of rough in the classroom right now. And so if there is anything that we can do to help them navigate tricky waters, anything that we can do to support educators, that's what we want to do.
Wilk - DerateTheHate.com (22:03.289)
Mm-hmm.
Lory Warren (22:14.098)
And so our programs will be focused on, we focused on a new set of curriculum. We will also be offering training as well as educator grants. So we will have opportunities for educators to apply for grants that will enable them and empower them to apply pro-human principles in their own classrooms.
And so I'm really excited about what our curriculum is going to look like. We will be working on a curriculum that focuses on concepts such as brain science, resilience, conflict resolution, relationships, fostering community, all rooted in the pro-human principles.
Lory Warren (23:06.606)
And then we will also be, we will also be, you'll also see some creative communications campaigns from us as well, which we're really excited about too.
Wilk - DerateTheHate.com (23:15.565)
That's awesome. That's awesome. Now, Daryl, I know you spent a FAIR amount of time, amount of your time over the years in classrooms talking to, you know, talking to kids and things like that. Is this going to be, uh, more of a, a train the trainer kind of thing where you're going to get together with, uh, with teachers and administrators and supply them materials and then they're going to present the material or, or is the pro human foundation going to
Be like a train the trainer or you guys gonna have people who go out and represent the organization and get into the schools physically and Interact with the kids. How's that gonna work?
Daryl Davis (23:58.076)
All of the above there, Wilk. As a global ambassador for the ProHuman Foundation, I will be out in the public, in the schools, and wherever, promoting this curricula. Laurie, Latisha, and Brian will be more hands-on in designing the curricula. Out of all the people you have here tonight as your guests, I'm the only one who doesn't have children of my own. And so I have not been a student.
Wilk - DerateTheHate.com (24:15.726)
Mm-hmm.
Daryl Davis (24:26.284)
in a classroom in a number of years, right? So, yeah, last year, right? But, you know, so I'm not as in tune with what's going on in the classrooms today other than what I hear from people like Bion, Latisha, and Lory and others, you know, who have become just, you know, up in arms about some of the things, you know, that are going on.
Wilk - DerateTheHate.com (24:30.434)
Maybe a few.
Daryl Davis (24:51.876)
And when I first heard about it, I was incredulous, because that did not go on when I was in school. But you brought up a few things earlier, where you point out that we're becoming a more and more mixed race society. And Letitia pointed out her background and Bion's background, et cetera. Well, I'm 65 years of age. And when I was a kid, I was a little kid.
and in school, you know, all people talk about was how great America is, you know, we are the melting pot, et cetera, et cetera. Well, you know, we were not really the melting pot back then. We talked about it and we praised it, all right? But, you know, minorities were very few. You know, this country was probably, when I was a kid, 87, 88% white. So it was not, it was not a big melting pot. You know, we had.
Wilk - DerateTheHate.com (25:46.309)
Mm-hmm.
Daryl Davis (25:50.936)
Native Americans who at the time I was a child were only 1% of the population. Today, Native Americans are still 1% of the population. When I was a child, black people were 12% of the population. Today we're 12.9, so we really haven't grown. We are, they say 13% now. Asian, Asian Pacifica Americans were almost 3%. Latino Hispanic Americans were almost 2%.
Today, Asian Pacific Americans are almost 6% and Latino Hispanic Americans are 17 point something percent. So, yes, we are becoming that melting pot that we praised so much back in the day. But now that we are becoming it, people are freaking out about it because they never thought it would come to this point. And I want to point out something to you. This is where all these identitarian politics are coming in.
Wilk - DerateTheHate.com (26:42.565)
Sure, sure.
Daryl Davis (26:48.656)
where you're trying to put people in a box. Because what I hear from the people that I deal with, and you know the people that I deal with, they're telling me, Daryl, I don't want my grandkids to be brown. They call it the browning of America, or white genocide through miscegenation. So there's your identity. They're trying to preserve whoever they think they are, this race, that race. Where they're mistaken is there is only one race, and it is the human race.
Wilk - DerateTheHate.com (26:56.172)
Yep.
Daryl Davis (27:16.684)
And we are the pro-human foundation. We stand for all people. And what is very concerning to a lot of people, not everybody in America, but a lot of people in America, is this demographic shift that is happening. And it is well predicted in the year 2042, this country will be 50-50, 50% white and 50% non-white.
Wilk - DerateTheHate.com (27:16.748)
human race.
Daryl Davis (27:44.296)
And between 2045 and 2050, it's going to flip. And whites will become the minority for the first time in 400 years. While there are a lot of white people in this country who accept that and say, hey, it's no big deal, it's evolution, it's a change, no big deal, I can deal with it. There are those who cannot deal with it. And that's what we're seeing today where people want to be put into a box or put somebody in a box.
and they don't understand this mixture and you're defiling, you're race, et cetera, et cetera. This is where we come in and we have to educate people that we all share the same humanity. We may be unique individuals, but we have that shared humanity. And it's my job, since I don't have children, I can train the adults where they
create the curricula for the kids. So it's a partnership where we get people together, kids and adults on the same page.
Wilk - DerateTheHate.com (28:47.901)
Yeah. And I, and you know, I love that idea. I'm hearing an echo.
Wilk - DerateTheHate.com (28:57.505)
I love that idea of, you know, that is the one thing that we all share, right? It may be the only thing that we all share is that shared humanity. And you know, Bion had mentioned, you know, the fact that he's got ancestry in Mexico and even a little bit from West Africa and things like that. And you know, I think about my ancestry. I mean, I'm like 80 some percent Dutch.
You know, and then there's some Eastern European in there, smattered in there and whatever. But the reality is this, it's like, okay, so all of our ancestry at some point, at some point in human history, it's gonna be, I mean, there is no such thing as purity of race. And if anybody thinks that there is, they're delusional. They're, yeah, they're sorely mistaken. It's...
Daryl Davis (29:51.984)
Sorely a mistaken.
Wilk - DerateTheHate.com (29:55.533)
We've all got people that somehow came together from different places. I mean, it's, you know.
Daryl Davis (30:03.244)
And if you want to go back far enough, we all came from Africa until, until somebody finds older, fossil evidence that we all came from China or something.
Wilk - DerateTheHate.com (30:07.381)
from Africa, right?
Wilk - DerateTheHate.com (30:16.533)
Right, right. Yeah, until there's something more. But yeah, you're right. If they haven't found it by now, well, I can't really say that. I was going to say if they haven't found it by now, but they're finding new stuff every day. And that's great. So Letitia, talk to me, like you said, your children are of mixed race in the sense that your husband's Korean
Caucasian or whatever, you know, whatever Your claim to be racialized as or however, however that works, right? but what are some of the things that first of all that you saw in the Within your school district and obviously you're in San Francisco And and they've got all kinds of different things going on out there that I'm sure that many throughout the country would find disturbing
But what was your true inspiration in that sense and in taking it towards the school level? What were some of the things that you guys were experiencing personally in your area? And how is the Pro Human Foundation going to address those things specifically?
Letitia Kim (31:37.252)
Mm-hmm. Well, from what I understand, well, let me start up by saying my children were and are still in private school. At the time, they were both in elementary school. Now my eldest, my daughter is now in high school. But for my daughter, it started in about fifth grade. And for my son, who went to a different school, all boys, my daughter went to all girls. For my son, it started a little bit younger, I think in about third grade when they started the identity unit.
Wilk - DerateTheHate.com (31:46.684)
Mm-hmm.
Letitia Kim (32:05.224)
I have to say that one of the things, you know, upon discovering this, you know, pedagogy by sheer accident, really, the first thing I thought was that this is going to drive a wedge within our own family, or potentially it would. And I was very concerned about that because if they are being taught these rigid categories, which of course they don't really fall into a rigid category. But
Wilk - DerateTheHate.com (32:24.613)
Mm-hmm.
Letitia Kim (32:34.804)
I generally speaking, they will probably be deemed, if you had to do a coin toss as a person of color. So I felt that they were being effectively told that their own mother belonged to a group of persons that was oppressing them, either indirectly or directly, or through participation in this system, which, you know,
which held them back. Of course that bothered me deeply. I mean, I love my children. I was a sweet mom. Yeah. And it also really, I think almost trivialized my marriage to my husband in the sense that we weren't to be seen as just two human beings who met, who got along, who fell in love. And I've known my husband since college.
Wilk - DerateTheHate.com (33:09.802)
And who? Yeah. Why wouldn't it? Right?
Letitia Kim (33:34.312)
Um, but we were rather, you know, representatives of two, you know, two racial groups. Um, you know, one of which was actively, you know, uh, you know, oppressing the other, although to be honest, the categories are, you know, seem to be changing. And I, I'm not sure if the East Asians remain in the oppressed category at the moment. Um, but that was my initial reaction. And then of course, I felt that it really is engendering a lot of resentment and anger on all sides.
So I did approach the school. I approached both of my children's schools on more than one occasion. And I saw other manifestations of this as well. My daughter's school administered the implicit association test to the students when they were in, I believe, sixth grade, which of course I had a bit of an issue with because obviously that test has been questioned as non-scientific because it's not
reliable and it's not very predictive of what you're going to do. But it always comes out, you never get the answer, well, you're not, you're okay, you're fine. You're biased. It's just a question of in what direction. My daughter came home and of course she was biased. Of course I did not like that. I approached the school again. I think it's pretty...
Wilk - DerateTheHate.com (34:44.494)
Mm-hmm.
Letitia Kim (34:56.652)
It's not unusual. What my kid's school did was not unusual. And again, I'm sure it was well-intentioned. I do not distrust their motives. But I do think it's part of this much larger trend where private schools, especially those that are members of the NAIS, use a curriculum that really doesn't differ all that much from school to school. And so I think...
What the hope is for the Pro Human Foundation is that we will create an alternative curriculum, you know, to at least one of the ones that is, you know, quite popular now, I believe it's called Pollyanna, and give schools a choice and give them a glimpse of what anti-racism education can look like if, as we believe, it is done right constructively.
and in a pro-human way.
Wilk - DerateTheHate.com (35:58.477)
Yeah, no, and I think that's beautiful because
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