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In this episode of Derate The Hate, host Wilk Wilkinson sits down with award-winning essayist, cultural critic, and author William Deresiewicz for an insightful conversation on solitude, the internet’s impact on society, political polarization, and the importance of civic engagement in an increasingly fragmented world.
William Deresiewicz is the author of The End of Solitude: Selected Essays on Culture and Society, a powerful collection that examines how digital technology has reshaped our relationships, eroded genuine human connection, and deepened societal divides. As a former Yale and Columbia professor and an influential voice in cultural criticism, Bill brings a unique perspective on individuality, self-examination, and the need for real community in an age dominated by online interactions.
✅ The Importance of Solitude: How the internet has altered our relationship with solitude and why reclaiming it is essential for deep thinking and self-awareness.
✅ The Internet & Society: The ways in which digital technology has reshaped our social interactions, often leading to community decay, polarization, and dehumanization.
✅ Political Polarization & Self-Examination: How emotional investment in beliefs fuels division and why intellectual humility is critical for a healthier civic discourse.
✅ Civic Engagement as an Antidote to Online Toxicity: The role of real-world community-building in counteracting the negative effects of social media-driven discourse.
✅ Pro-Human Philosophy: As a new member of the ProHuman Foundation’s Board of Advisors, Bill discusses the need to reinforce individuality and shared humanity in today’s divided culture.
✅ The Future of Culture & Identity: Why people are growing dissatisfied with extreme ideological divides and how embracing nuanced, human-centered discussions can lead to positive change.
William Deresiewicz is an award-winning writer, cultural critic, and author of five books, including the New York Times bestseller Excellent Sheep and his latest work, The End of Solitude. His work has been featured in The New York Times, The Atlantic, Harper’s, and many other major publications. He has taught at Yale and Columbia, been nominated three times for the National Magazine Award, and received the Hiett Prize in the Humanities.
📖 William Deresiewicz’s Latest Book: The End of Solitude
🔗 Visit Bill’s Website: https://billderesiewicz.com
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Transcript begins at the introduction of the guest:
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (00:01.698)
William DeRezowitz, thank you for joining me on the D-Rate to Hate podcast. I have been looking forward to this one. Looking forward to a great conversation today, man. Thank you so much.
Bill D (00:12.24)
you're welcome.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (00:14.572)
I'm Bill. So when, when, when the pro human foundation reached out and said, Hey, we've got a new member and congratulations on, on, joining our board of advisors at the pro human foundation. but they said, Bill Derezol, it's coming on, to, our advisory board and we want you to check this, check his workout. I saw these books that you've been putting out and
And, you know, over the years, your essays, your books, I started looking at them a little bit deeper and, and I'm like, this guy is got some just incredible content out there. And, and I, and, and it's, it's just great. so that's where I want to start our conversation today, Bill is. Is I just want to talk about some of the work that you've done, you know, over the years, as, as a, a, you know, a cultural.
Bill D (00:46.528)
Mm.
Bill D (00:56.098)
Thank you.
Thank you.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (01:12.098)
what are the, guess, cultural critic, I guess, is, that in some ways I've heard you described as, and, and somebody who looks at society, who's looked at education, who's looked at the intellectual elites of our, of our country and kind of gone through all of these different things and, and, and really brought to light things that a lot of people just haven't thought of before. So at least that's the way that I saw it. So.
Bill D (01:14.679)
Mm.
Bill D (01:38.487)
Mm.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (01:41.89)
What I'd like you to do for me, Bill, is I'd like to start with talking about your most current book, and then we can kind of see where that leads our conversation. So, The End of Solitude, this book of essays about culture and society. Let's start there and see where this goes.
Bill D (02:01.887)
Yeah, sure.
Well, mean, yeah, I'm still not sure exactly what a cultural critic is or does. And it is kind of a squishy term, kind of a broad term, can mean different things to different people. But I studied English in graduate school, and I was an English professor up until 2008. I mean, one of the things that you do, or the thing that you should do when you study literature, is you look at this kind of complex text, and you ask, what does it mean?
and where does it come from? And I think that that's a good working description of what a cultural critic should do. You can look at of cultural artifacts like novels or movies or music or whatever, but you can also look at trends in our culture, in our politics, in our higher education world or whatever, and try to understand what does it mean? What's going on? What does it tell us about ourselves?
What lessons does it have for us? And that's what I try to do. I have written a lot about higher ed because I was a professor and I love being a professor but there are also many things about the whole enterprise that disenchanted me and I don't need to explain this to people now because there's been a lot of conversation about this. But as somebody who studied literature and is interested in other arts, I write about that a lot too.
And then also just kind of more, you know, in a way that can be harder to get your hands on just sort of like where we are culturally in general. what? And like you said, this is what I try to do and I hope I'm successful sometimes to see things that other people aren't seeing. Or maybe I should say to notice things that other people are seeing but aren't noticing. That I'm not noticing either until you start to ask yourself like, wait a second, has it always been like this?
Bill D (04:04.193)
And if it hasn't always been like this, why? One of the things I started writing about pretty fast was the internet. I mean, I didn't get on Facebook until 2008 because I'm, I was going say older, I guess I have to say I'm old, I'm 61. So I was 44 when I joined Facebook in 2008 because that's when my friends were joining. And I immediately saw how it was changing, you know.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (04:12.152)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (04:20.865)
You
Bill D (04:31.553)
my relationship with my friends, my sort of relationship with myself, and the larger culture in ways that have become super obvious now. So I was writing about that almost right away and thinking of specifically, you know, I a couple of essays about solitude and that one of them gave the title to the book, ultimately to the collection, The End of Solitude. What is the solitude thing? Why is it valuable? What does it mean that we're losing it? Yeah.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (04:35.992)
Yeah, yeah.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (04:40.291)
Mm-hmm.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (04:59.256)
Yeah, no, and I love when you talk about, you know, so when I think about, you know, the term critic or the classification of critic or whatever, you know, a cultural critic as somebody who's, you know, whether it be a movie critic or a food critic or a cultural critic or whatever, I'm thinking about somebody who's
who's kind of stepping outside something, separating myself from it, trying to look at everything objectively, break it down into its most basic pieces, figure out what's working, what's not, and speaking critically about all of these different things. And I think far too often, Bill, there's just not enough people actually doing that right now. They can't separate themselves from the actual thing that they're trying to look at critically.
Bill D (05:53.761)
I think that's well said. mean, there are a million people doing cultural criticism now. I I think that's why the term is a term. they don't often seem to be... See, this to me is the key. You're stepping away from the thing, but you're really stepping away from yourself. And so much cultural criticism that I read or don't read, read the beginning of and then put aside, is people who are very clearly
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (06:13.731)
Yes.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (06:20.694)
You
Bill D (06:23.591)
not engaged in an act of self-examination. They're just reading into whatever the thing is, what they really believe. And to me, what's valuable about this for others and what's useful for me myself is that it's helped me to understand my own assumptions about the world and to question them. Sometimes I affirm them. I don't necessarily question them to destroy or discard them.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (06:43.694)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Bill D (06:51.563)
But I want to know if I'm going to believe something. I want to know that I have good reasons to believe it.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (06:56.322)
Right. And that's such a true phenomenon, right? That affirmation or confirmation bias that when we're looking at things, that we are often just trying to confirm or affirm what we've already believed without our ability for that self-reflection. And I think that's one of the biggest things that leads to the ugly polarity, the toxic polarity that we see in society today.
Bill D (07:02.302)
Yeah.
Bill D (07:15.254)
Yes.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (07:24.918)
And that us versus them mentality is that people can't step outside themselves and look at things critically and say, Hey, I might be wrong. Maybe I need to think about this again. Maybe I need to look at this from a different angle and see if what I had believed initially isn't necessarily the right path. Isn't the right solution. Maybe I don't even understand the problem, but so often so much of this stuff gets muddied up.
because we get in our own way. At least that's the way that I've perceived it.
Bill D (07:58.944)
No, I think you're absolutely right. I think one of the biggest reasons for that is that our sense of self, our ego, our self-esteem has become really wrapped up in these things. We have these intense emotional and psychological investments in holding tight to our positions. So it's not just an intellectual or cognitive challenge.
it's much more fraught than that. And it's about what tribe you belong to. These are intense, powerful emotional drives. they've gotten, I mean, I'm sure that's always been the case to a certain extent, but they've gotten so intense now that it's preventing us from thinking and it's preventing us from changing, from changing our opinions and changing sort of our...
you know kind of the way we kind of engage the world.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (09:00.424)
without a doubt, without a doubt. So, so as somebody then Bill, who's, who's written about, you know, the onset of this internet ecosystem and how that started to change people, you, you said you're one of the first person or first people to start writing about that and really observing the way that it was changing society and the way that it was changing you even, what do you think is the greatest contributor to that?
and how that has actually contributed to that us versus them tribal mentality.
Bill D (09:35.51)
Yeah. So I should also say that when I started to write about social media in 2009, this was before the smartphone, right? Which you had to be on your computer, on your laptop, and that was already bad enough. But then you closed the cover of your laptop and you went about your life. Now it's always with us.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (09:47.246)
So you had to be on one of these computers doing this.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (09:53.624)
Mm-hmm.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (09:58.126)
Yeah.
Bill D (10:00.681)
And what is always with us, and this is what I mean when I say the end of solitude, what's always with us is other people's judgments of us.
This to me is the key. mean there are a lot of things, the addiction and all that stuff, but the key thing is that we live constantly in other people's opinions of us. And so everything that we're doing, everything that we're locked into, we're locked into by these voices. I mean that's what cancel culture means and there's cancel culture on both sides. It's what these platforms are kind of designed to amplify.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (10:31.854)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Bill D (10:40.831)
because we place ourselves within these networks of likes and comments and so forth. And I feel like it's kind of, it's evacuated our interiority. Like we only exist insofar as we are mirrored back to ourselves by others. I mean, this to me is psychologically debilitating and I think it's morally debilitating.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (11:08.68)
for sure. For sure. So, yeah, when I think about that, mean, I, know, instantly where my mind is going with that, Bill, is when you say, you know, it's mirrored back to us and we're, you know, I think about, again, the, you know, constant seeking of affirmation, affirmation from others and hoping that we're popular or whatever.
Bill D (11:10.229)
I mean, yeah, yeah.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (11:35.276)
And now all of a sudden we start doing things that we may not have otherwise done. I know for a fact that I have seen that over the course of the, you know, the past several years that, that people are more and more involved in that internet ecosystem and things like that. They have changed in a way that they're saying things that they wouldn't normally have said, whether it be because of the anonymity that comes along with being on the internet or.
Bill D (11:45.185)
Hmm.
Bill D (11:59.126)
Mm. Mm.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (12:02.53)
the seeking of affirmation or wanting to be in the in crowd, instead of just, you know, instead of just wanting to be affirmed and loved by your family in your home or by your neighbors or people within your community. Now you've got a whole sea of people out there that you're trying to somehow impress and, and, and, and, and then also, also to take that to a different level, you know, kind of thinking about.
Bill D (12:14.145)
Right. Right.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (12:32.29)
the whole concept of, and I don't know who initially said it or where the study came from or whatever. know it's part of a Francis Fukuyama book that I've been going through, but, but, know, people are more inclined to, follow the law or break the law if they're, you know, within, you know, if, if the, if the, if the confines of their community are people that are breaking the law, then they're probably going to break the law or.
Bill D (12:58.433)
Hmm.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (12:59.862)
or they're going to follow the law if more people within their community are following the law. It just becomes a natural thing. But if you're spending all of your time in this internet ecosystem where people are toxic and saying horrible things about other people and, and following a certain mindset or mentality or, or, you know, kind of shifting their morals to flow with something more ugly. I think you're just going to be more inclined to do that.
Bill D (13:18.261)
Mm.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (13:28.492)
because it becomes the norm.
Bill D (13:31.242)
Yeah, yeah, think norm is a key word. Like you're placing yourself in a community with different norms, and of course we absorb the norms of the community around us. I like the way you contrasted it with being known by your family, by your actual in-person community, for a couple of reasons. I mean, first of all, those people know you in a very different way. And they affirm you as the full, hopefully,
as the full person you are and they see you as the full person you are. The little tiny little distorted piece of yourself that you put online is the thing that your online quote unquote community is judging, is affirming or condemning. so it's not really you, but the more you do it, the more it becomes you because that's the part of you that kind of get it.
And it's only the part of you that expresses these extreme and kind of angry and kind of unkind opinions. And then I'd also say that, you know, sort of the morality of an in-person community is a morality that's based on sort of the acts that we do. You know, why do we have the norms that we have? Well, I mean, kindness helps other people and, you know, showing up for people and being a good neighbor. I mean, they're not abstract codes. come out of that.
the lived life of an actual community, family, faith community, whatever. On the internet, again, we're relating to each other in a completely different way. So the norms are addressing completely different kinds of interactions. So all of a sudden, you end up in a situation where the approved norm is to actually be a terrible person. This is not good.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (15:00.056)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (15:12.141)
Mm-hmm.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (15:23.767)
Right, right.
Right, right. Well, and then I think it gives people also, and this is something that I've been thinking so much more about because I've been focusing a lot of my time, Bill, on like concepts of subsidiarity and local community engagement and what that means for civic renewal and things like that. And something that just came to mind in this conversation that you and I have in right here is I think a lot of times
Bill D (15:28.128)
Yeah.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (15:55.522)
When people are online and they're talking about these big macro things that they really can't affect change in, but they certainly have outrage for, they will say and do things online because they have latitude to say and do these big hyperbolic things because they know they really don't have any way of affecting change when it comes to those things.
Talk about that for a second, because I don't know. It's just a mind or just something that popped into my mind right now. But I think there might be something to that because if you know that what you're saying and what you're doing is not going to affect things on that grand scale, you're probably going to say and do things that are probably a little bit more exaggerated than you would if you were working on a problem within your own neighborhood or your own community.
Bill D (16:46.785)
Right.
Right. Right, because there are no real consequences. Although we are actually seeing now in our politics and again on both sides this terrible thing which is that sort of online is becoming real life. So crazy ideas that only you would only ever express online because there are no consequences. All of a sudden people are actually trying to do them with disastrous consequences. But I'd also say something else that it's not, it's something I think you have thought about much more than I have.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (16:54.638)
There's no real consequence.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (17:06.254)
Mm-hmm.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (17:14.286)
Yeah.
Bill D (17:20.555)
But you're talking about local communities, right? I think one of the big stories of our time, of the internet time, is the loss or the decay of the local. There's that famous saying of, I think, Tip O'Neill, the longtime Democratic Speaker of the House from back in the 80s. All politics is local. And I'm not the first.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (17:23.73)
huh, I'm here.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (17:32.224)
It's something I think about a lot.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (17:45.454)
Mm-hmm.
Bill D (17:48.268)
person to point out that that is the opposite is now true. That that was true in the days of Tip O'Neill when politics meant sort the local party apparatus and you knew your alderman and your alderman sort of helped you get a turkey for Christmas or whatever it was, right? And that kind of, and that was the roots of the national parties. The power sources were the local sources, churches, unions, whatever it was. And now the local, on the political level has been evacuated.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (17:57.934)
Yep.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (18:03.65)
Mm-hmm.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (18:09.57)
Mm-hmm.
Bill D (18:17.521)
and politics is the internet projected onto the local. And I think, you know, we're constantly asking ourselves, how can we step back from this situation we found? We've brought ourselves, I think, the revitalization of the local, which means real people in real relationships with people in face-to-face trying to solve their problems and exerting the power that they really do have.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (18:17.635)
Yes.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (18:21.536)
Mm-hmm.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (18:42.755)
Mm-hmm.
Bill D (18:46.857)
in the local which they don't have in the global can be a really great thing.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (18:50.614)
Yeah. Yeah, this is, this is absolutely one of my biggest goals for, you know, for this coming year and years to come, Bill is, is getting more involved in the concept of civic engagement and civic renewal, you know, showing people truly that, you know, I've, I've said this a number of times and, and, and, and I, ironically, I think
Bill D (19:09.569)
Mm.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (19:20.11)
part of this came, came about from, from JD Vance's book Hillbilly Elegy. But the concept that the federal government is neither the cause of nor the solution to all, or even most of your problems as an individual. But, but being a guy like me, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a conservative guy that believes in individual liberty, personal accountability. It's things that I talk about all the time, but we in our politics.
have allowed this federal apparatus to invade our personal lives when the reality is, is most of that shouldn't even be affecting us at a personal level. Now, unfortunately it's affecting a lot of people at the personal level right now, and it shouldn't be, for, many reasons that started long before, you know, a few weeks ago, but, but the reality is this people, and this is, this has been a great contributor to our toxic polarity as well.
is people have allowed their political identity to become part of their personal identity. And then anytime somebody says something that's in contrast to or negatively, know, portrays something about their political identity, they take it as a personal attack. And therein lies that us versus them tribalism that just blows up into something more.
Bill D (20:25.121)
Mmm.
Bill D (20:38.113)
Hmm
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (20:44.962)
What we need to do, Bill, I think is really start to focus again on what is our community identity? What are our common problems? And how can we as a community start to work towards making those things better? I mean, that, and I think the internet is one of our biggest, biggest challenges, let's say.
Bill D (21:03.242)
Yeah.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (21:14.011)
in doing that because people are more interested in looking at their screen than looking at their neighbor.
Bill D (21:19.721)
I think that's absolutely right. mean, people are inside on their screens. of, yeah, I this is what the decay of the local and of the relational is about. But yeah, I mean, I think becoming more involved on the local level, first of all, it helps relieve that sense of perilousness that I think is driving so much of the toxicity in our politics. And it also helps you remember
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (21:31.438)
Mm-hmm.
Bill D (21:49.216)
or learn for the first time that other people are people, that everyone is complicated, that even if your neighbor votes for the other party, there are all kinds of things you have in common with them, that they are coming from a genuine place. And I'm saying this to both sides. mean, one of my biggest critiques of my side, which is the left half of the spectrum, is that it has had no interest in even learning, let alone understanding.
the humanity on the other side and the fact that people on the other side are driven by perfectly human, understandable, valid motives. They're not bad people and they're not ignorant people, they just see the world differently from you. But you can have a conversation and recognize how much you have in common or what you can work towards in common. Yeah.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (22:25.484)
Right, right?
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (22:41.558)
absolutely. Absolutely. And this plays into, you know, what, what I've, I've talked so much about on this podcast is that fog model that's, that's used so prevalently these days by people in our media, people in our, people in our academic institutions, people in our politics, that fog model of fear, outrage, and grievance teaching and telling people.
Bill D (23:02.987)
Mm-hmm.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (23:06.391)
And this, this goes to something that I want to talk to you a little bit about too, cause I know you talked about our education system quite a bit is, you know, people in these institutions, again, whether it be politics, academia, the media or whatever, use this fear, outrage and grievance model to, to keep people mad, scared and aggrieved against the other people. Not simply stating that may, they may be wrong on this issue, but they are evil for having this stance on this issue.
Bill D (23:36.693)
Yes.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (23:37.378)
Talk a little bit about that.
Bill D (23:39.884)
Well, what you reminded me of is something that I heard from a social scientist once, which is that whenever you're in an S versus N situation, no matter what it's about or who the sides are, there are always three stages in the way you understand the other side. First, you think they're ignorant. Then you think they're dumb. Then you think they're evil.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (23:57.454)
Hmm.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (24:04.143)
Yeah, yeah
Bill D (24:07.489)
So obviously we've gotten to the evil part, but I mean even the ignorant part are not good places to be. It's, yeah, I mean I think there's no solution to this dehumanization except to rehumanize each other. Part of the problem is that the dehumanization is happening at scale and humanization can only happen at a human scale of one at a time.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (24:14.135)
No.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (24:25.262)
That's right.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (24:36.408)
That's right. That's right. And that's why, you know, the mission statement of this podcast, Bill is better in the world, one attitude at a time. You know, how do, how do we react to things that are outside of our control? How do we get along better with people who have different mindsets than us? How do we, how do we build upon and rebuild that civic renewal thing that I was talking about earlier?
Bill D (24:36.639)
or a few at a time. Yeah.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (25:00.608)
I think to do that at scale, like you said, it's that dehumanization thing is happening at scale. And the only way we're going to counter that and beat back that wolf that's at everybody's door now is to do it one person at a time through true civic engagement. And then to take it back to, you know, one of the reasons we're speaking today.
Bill D (25:15.968)
Yeah.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (25:29.036)
That pro-human message, right? I mean, even though people are different or appear to be different than us or think different than us or look different than us or worship different than us, whatever, all of those things are irrelevant when it, well, not irrelevant. don't want to say irrelevant. They're, very relevant, but they're, they're in comparison to the pro-human stance in comparison to
who we are as individuals and what our needs are as individual human beings. You know, that desire to have a roof over our head, to have food in our belly, to have security, to have a place for our children to get a good education, a place for us to safely worship the way that we want to worship. All of those things. That pro-human message has to take precedence over those things that, those perceived differences that we may have.
Bill D (26:27.445)
Yes, that's right. mean, one of the things that makes me cautiously optimistic is that no one is happy with this. I mean, maybe the relatively few sort of professional influencers who are making a lot of money or whose ego is getting pumped up by their many thousands of followers. But most of us are really miserable. We're miserable with the political polarization. We're miserable with what the internet has done to us.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (26:39.0)
Right?
Bill D (26:57.045)
I mean, there's been so much talk about this now for the last five or ten years. We're well past that time when the internet was something that made us sort of feel happy and optimistic. So, because we're so unhappy, I think there's a tremendous desire to find ways to get out of this. know? It is sort of one at a time kind of work, but I think the potential audience
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (27:17.848)
Yeah.
Bill D (27:25.811)
is very receptive. People want this.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (27:30.296)
People are ready. People are ready. And, and, one of the things my friend David Eisner, said a while back when I had him on the podcast was he, he, you he believes there is a, a, a depolarization wave, a pro, civility wave coming because of so many people just being fed up with the constant, you know, constant fear and outrage,
Bill D (27:31.615)
Yes.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (27:59.83)
You know, that thing that continues to happen and those that continue to capitalize on that fear and outrage to keep us aggrieved and keep us separated. think he's absolutely right. I think people are hungry for civility again. I think they just need to be shown that there is a better way to engage, shown that that...
that true civic engagement will come out of, or true civic renewal will come out of, you know, civic engagement within our communities, working with each other again. Again, stop looking at the screen, start looking at your neighbor kind of thing. And I think the more people start to realize that, the more people will gravitate to it because the end result will prove that.
That's how we got here or, or, you know, the screens are how, well, a, all completely, but they're a big part of how we got here. And the fact that we quit actually talking to each other is, is, uh, the remedy is, is talking to each other again, speaking with each other, understanding each other.
Bill D (29:18.687)
Yeah, I mean, I'm not an expert in addiction and fortunately I've never experienced addiction in the classical sense that we talk about it. But I mean, one of the things that we're dealing with is addiction, right? It's addiction to the internet, to the dopamine hits, and it's addiction to whatever chemicals are released by the rage, right? And I assume that part of the way you get out of an addiction is to replace it with something
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (29:35.192)
yeah.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (29:39.51)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Bill D (29:47.778)
that's better, that's good. We were talking about how people feel really bad now, so they're ready for something different. I think what's gonna help bring people and keep people in these better forms of engagement is again, very elementary level. How is this making you feel? It feels good. It feels good to be in actual relationship with people. It feels good to solve problems together. You know, get that pothole paved or whatever it is, right? That feels good.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (30:12.578)
That's right.
Yeah. Yeah.
Bill D (30:16.905)
So it's not an idea of this thing is better for you. It's like give people the feeling and they're going to be like, yeah, I would much rather be in this place than in that other place that my social media feed puts me in.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (30:32.174)
No, that's absolutely right. That's absolutely right. So as we wrap up our conversation then Bill, mean, it's, and it's been a fantastic conversation, but, as one of our newest members of the board of advisors for the pro human foundation, what, and this is something that I've asked all my fellow advisors, you know, when you came.
at two, or when you were asked to be part of the, the, the board of advisors, you know, what is it that, you know, what is it that you want to bring to, one of the great things about being part of this, this organization is sometimes it's just about being us and doing what we do. There's not really a lot to do except for being out there spreading that pro-human message. But, you know, what is it, what is it about that pro-human message that you want?
Bill D (31:19.617)
Mm.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (31:26.452)
each and every person that's listening to this to understand and, and, and, and, and what do you want to bring forward as part of this board of advisors?
Bill D (31:35.914)
Yeah, I mean, you so I was contacted out of the blue. I hadn't heard of the Pro-Human Foundation. It's not very old. And so, of course, I went on the website and looked at what they're doing and the other kind of people like yourself who are on the advisory board. And I realized that this was worth getting involved with because it is sort of another way of taking a bite out of things that I've been passionate about and committed to.
for really my whole adult life. So I was a teacher for a long time. And for me, teaching was all about the things that we've been talking about, all about helping people see things more clearly, understanding themselves better, understanding others better, and also a word that you've been using a lot and that I use all the time, which is individual, right? Helping people to be individuals. I think, you know, we grow up.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (32:26.69)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Bill D (32:34.943)
with this, you know, we all were all brought into sort of the beliefs and norms and values of our communities and that's appropriate but part of the process of growing up is learning to examine, separate, make your own choices, become an individual. And I think one of the great problems with the internet and the age of the internet is that it's all trying to make us not individuals.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (32:55.427)
Mm-hmm.
Bill D (33:05.195)
to make us like all the other people in our tribe, all the other people in our feed. And so to constantly, to me, when we say in the Pro-Human Foundation, our uniqueness, to me that's our individuality, right? That's like, and our right to our individuality, and the validity of our individuality, and our right to make judgments that may be at odds with the people around us.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (33:20.92)
Yes.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (33:33.112)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Bill D (33:35.305)
And to help them understand, we're not rejecting you, it's just I'm not you and you're not me. And it's so important for us to respect our differences. I know that's kind of a cliche differences, but I don't mean it like in the identity politics way. I mean like the individual differences that we have from each other that makes each of us unique. Yeah.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (33:45.186)
That is so right.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (33:55.042)
Yes. Yeah. No, and that's beautiful. That is such a great way to wrap this up. Yeah. We're all unique individuals and we all, we just have to realize that and play upon it.
Bill D (34:09.803)
And that's like what's beautiful and fun about being a human in a world with other humans. Like that's the fun part is that we are different.
Wilk ~ Derate The Hate (34:17.39)
Yep. Yep. Yes. Yeah. There are no monoliths. There are no rigid binaries. There are no pretend things. We are all these beautiful individuals with individual needs, individual thoughts. Bill DeResowitz, this has been an incredible conversation. So many more things that I would love to get into with you, hear about more of your essays, more of your work.
I know people can find you at buildoresowitz.com, which we'll put in the show notes because just... Exactly. It will be in the show notes for this episode. I look forward to more with you in the future. William DeResowitz, beautiful conversation. Thank you so much.
Bill D (34:49.345)
There you go. Great. Yes. How do you spell duressuits? Nobody knows.
Bill D (35:01.673)
Thank you so much.
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